Moderator: Flannel Jesus
surreptitious75 wrote:The largest black hole known to exist is TON 6I8 with a solar mass equivalent to 66 000 000 000 Suns
So large is it that it is not even classed as a supermassive black hole but an ultramassive one instead
iambiguous wrote:
Just one more thing "out there" to put your own existence into perspective.
wtf wrote:
I think the existence of black holes and other cosmological mysteries argue for some form of realism. There really is stuff "out there" and we can use science to learn about it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_realism
Well, it's big and massive and all that. But a single human brain may well be more complex.iambiguous wrote:Just one more thing "out there" to put your own existence into perspective.
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Karpel Tunnel wrote:Well, it's big and massive and all that. But a single human brain may well be more complex.iambiguous wrote:Just one more thing "out there" to put your own existence into perspective.
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Sure, there may be alien brains that are bigger and more complex. But what it seemed like you were doing was trying to humble us. Putting our 'existence into perspective' We're small, we're nothing. By the random measure of mass, for some reason.iambiguous wrote:Karpel Tunnel wrote:Well, it's big and massive and all that. But a single human brain may well be more complex.iambiguous wrote:Just one more thing "out there" to put your own existence into perspective.
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And there may well be alien brains even more complex. Perhaps not the equivalent of 20,000,000,000 human brains, but big and bad enough to be one hell of a lot closer to "the whole truth" than we are.
Or [perhaps] even complex enough to know if there is a whole truth to be had.
And then of course those who lay claim to the mother of all brains: God's.
Complex enough even to bring itself into existence?
Karpel Tunnel wrote: Sure, there may be alien brains that are bigger and more complex. But what it seemed like you were doing was trying to humble us. Putting our 'existence into perspective' We're small, we're nothing. By the random measure of mass, for some reason.
Karpel Tunnel wrote: It certainly could put my own existence in A perspective. But it seems for you it puts it in some better perspective. A more humble one. One where we do not think we know or are things.
Karpel Tunnel wrote: I see no reason to think it is better than some other perspective, nor even a remedy for whatever ill you are fighting like anyone else waving their flag, belief system or religion.
Is it better if that flag is waved in a self-effacing way, with all the better than thou implicit rather than stated`?
Karpel Tunnel wrote: I remain unconvinced.
Just a guy with a perspective.iambiguous wrote:Or, as Simon Critchley once suggested, "very little, almost nothing".
What? that we're very little almost nothing? No, that's not a fact, that's a perspective. Couldn’t bring yourself even to show the minimal respect of responding to the brain example.But that's just a fact, right?
Your posts here in this thread imply you know also.And the thing about some folks is not only are they convinced they know all about how we live, but are, in turn, convinced they know all about how we ought to live too.
Karpel Tunnel wrote: It certainly could put my own existence in A perspective. But it seems for you it puts it in some better perspective. A more humble one. One where we do not think we know or are things.
That it is a better perspective to think we are nearly nothing. Better than those objectivists who think they are important. But these are just two perspectives, one need have neither. I see no reason to have yours, but here you think it is a fact, lol.Better or worse than what?
Karpel Tunnel wrote: I see no reason to think it is better than some other perspective, nor even a remedy for whatever ill you are fighting like anyone else waving their flag, belief system or religion.
Is it better if that flag is waved in a self-effacing way, with all the better than thou implicit rather than stated`?
This thread is a context. It is down to earth. You brought up this giant black hole and the perspective that this supposedly gives us, perhaps should give us. It certainly seemed like you were presenting the perspective that really we are nearly nothing. And keep doing it here. That is a context down to earth.Let's bring this down to earth. You choose the context.
Karpel Tunnel wrote: I remain unconvinced.
About the perspective you are putting forward here being either objective or better. I don't see any reason to walk around thinking I am nearly nothing. I remain unsold.Unconvinced about what? About, say, the relationship between this thread and the one in which we traded our own non-objectivist moral perspectives.
Still going on with that insane interpretation of me solving problems (even though you also solve problems). And going on presenting your perspective that we should think we are small and nothing.You're the pragmatist, right? And that works well for you if the goal is to feel less fractured and fragmented -- more comforted and consoled -- when confronting conflicting goods on a planet that revolves around our own [relatively puny] star.
Now I am not rescuing or attempting to. But I did swim past.Drowning victims, especially adults, can be dangerous. Someone who is panicking will instinctively clutch at anything and use it push themselves up. This means pushing their rescuer down, which is easy to do if the rescuer is tired, or if they've pinned their rescuer's arms.
Karpel Tunnel wrote:Just a guy with a perspective.iambiguous wrote:Or, as Simon Critchley once suggested, "very little, almost nothing".
And the thing about some folks is not only are they convinced they know all about how we live, but are, in turn, convinced they know all about how we ought to live too.
Karpel Tunnel wrote: Your posts here in this thread imply you know also.
Karpel Tunnel wrote: It certainly could put my own existence in A perspective. But it seems for you it puts it in some better perspective. A more humble one. One where we do not think we know or are things.
Better or worse than what?
Karpel Tunnel wrote: That it is a better perspective to think we are nearly nothing. Better than those objectivists who think they are important. But these are just two perspectives, one need have neither. I see no reason to have yours, but here you think it is a fact, lol.
Karpel Tunnel wrote: I see no reason to think it is better than some other perspective, nor even a remedy for whatever ill you are fighting like anyone else waving their flag, belief system or religion.
Is it better if that flag is waved in a self-effacing way, with all the better than thou implicit rather than stated`?
Let's bring this down to earth. You choose the context.
Karpel Tunnel wrote: This thread is a context. It is down to earth. You brought up this giant black hole and the perspective that this supposedly gives us, perhaps should give us. It certainly seemed like you were presenting the perspective that really we are nearly nothing. And keep doing it here. That is a context down to earth.
One man talking to his fellow humans. Then another man responding to what this man is doing. That is as down to earth as it can be.
Unconvinced about what? About, say, the relationship between this thread and the one in which we traded our own non-objectivist moral perspectives?
Karpel Tunnel wrote: About the perspective you are putting forward here being either objective or better. I don't see any reason to walk around thinking I am nearly nothing. I remain unsold.
You're the pragmatist, right? And that works well for you if the goal is to feel less fractured and fragmented -- more comforted and consoled -- when confronting conflicting goods on a planet that revolves around our own [relatively puny] star.
Karpel Tunnel wrote: Still going on with that insane interpretation of me solving problems (even though you also solve problems). And going on presenting your perspective that we should think we are small and nothing.
Karpel Tunnel wrote: Note: I am not saying we should think we are big and special. Just noting your perspective, one you probably will not take responsibility for. Puny star. Your values. Puny, a value-laden word. As if... if we were massive and our star the biggest we might have some reason to be less humble than you think we should be.
Karpel Tunnel wrote: You present you moral position or humble perspective. I respond. You start a thread, acting in the world, but now you want to talk about me. But you put forward a way one should look at things. Your thread, your perspective, your onus. You put forward an idea, a perspective you think it correct, better than those objectivist ones. I challenge your perspective. I say I see no need to take it on or consider it objective.
Drowning victims, especially adults, can be dangerous. Someone who is panicking will instinctively clutch at anything and use it push themselves up. This means pushing their rescuer down, which is easy to do if the rescuer is tired, or if they've pinned their rescuer's arms.
Karpel Tunnel wrote: Now I am not rescuing or attempting to. But I did swim past.
You see your drowning state as a noll state. A state created because you lack beliefs, lack objectivism.
What I see is someone who is drowning because he has perspectives and beliefs he considers better than others. I pointed out one of those beliefs here. Could be part of depression, the cognitive aspects. But whatever, you have a set of memes that are part of your drowning. If one questions those ideas and perspectives, you shift focus to what you think the other person believes, demand that they justify their positions, or in this case, my lack of one. I neither think I am puny, nearly nothing, nor that I am big and important. I see you drowning and drowning smug. The last pure man, without objective morals or perspectives. And you try to convince others, as in this thread.
To respond to that is the most grounded possible discussion. Since it is what is happening in this here between us.
But you spit on that. You do not take responsibility for your own perspective that you try to spread as you did in this thread. Hey, my peers, think you are nearly nothing.
I will just keep swimming past, thank you. I did not come to rescue you, nor is there any reason for me, a non-objectivist, to justify my continued participation in life.
The otter has no objectivism but he is quite pragmatic.
I will not read your response.
Karpel Tunnel wrote:I will not read your response.
Karpel Tunnel wrote:The otter is not an objectivist but he is quite pragmatic.
And here you are telling otters they should think they are nearly nothing, on a planet circling a puny star.
You'd be a typhoid Mary meme for otters if they could understand you and took you seriously. You and those like you and it is a set of memes quite popular out there.
Do you need that? Otters lining the banks of the stream, like you, not moving, not social, depressed, fearing death but hating life.
Do you need that?
You are selling it.
It's not all you're doing. You are also raising good philosophical issues.
You ask, now and then, how ought one live. Well, just pointing out that you are living, and this is part of what you are doing and selling it to others.
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
There are value laden memes here on Iamb's part.
An objectivist position about how one should think of oneself.
It's the mirror image of other objectivists who tell you to feel like you are special or important.
Karpel Tunnel wrote:Iamb assumes that anyone who is not in his hole has some kind of contraption. He does not want to consider that his hole is created, in part or in the main, by his contraptions: here, that it is better to walk around thinking I am nearly nothing.
Karpel Tunnel wrote:If you engage with him, he will develop a theory about your contraption - in my case, that I believe in pragmatism, rather than simply being pragmatic, that is solving problems, trying to achieve things, trying to avoid other things. STuff he and everyone else does.
Karpel Tunnel wrote:I raised the nature of the otter, a social mammal capable even of play - to show that one need not have contraptions to NOT be depressed and disengaged from life and other people.
Karpel Tunnel wrote:For Iamb the base, contraptionless experience of life is depressed, isolated and nihilistic. He sees this as what life MUST be like, regardless of circumstance, if one does not have contraptions to rely on.
Karpel Tunnel wrote: This position is not based on science. It is his assumption. And he has resisted considering other sources for his suffering as the main ones.
Karpel Tunnel wrote: Fine, his choice.
Karpel Tunnel wrote: There are several problems with this: off the bat, it implies that if, say, there was a life form in the huge black hole, it would have better grounds to think it was great. Which is just silly. Or if there was a lifeform that was enourmous itself, it would be justified in thinking it was great and special. Also silly. The amount of matter that makes one up or one's sun up does not change the fundamental issues around existence. And it's all speculative nonsense.
Karpel Tunnel wrote: So....He is telling us we should think of ourselves as small and nearly nothing.
Karpel Tunnel wrote: He is selling part of his depression as if it is a fact.
Karpel Tunnel wrote: If he could own it. If he can't own it, then it makes any interaction pointless because he will then make any interaction about me, even if he starts the thread and presents a position, suddenly the onus is on me to prove something or to prove that I am not something.
Karpel Tunnel wrote: So, if one is going to interact with Iamb, one should be ready to have one's main points ignored, especially any regarding him and his positions, and to be treated as if one is the only one who has any onus to justify things.
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