Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

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Is the Darwinistic selection principle false?

Yes.
13
37%
Probably.
4
11%
Perhaps.
0
No votes
No.
16
46%
I do not know.
2
6%
 
Total votes : 35

Re: Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

Postby promethean75 » Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:47 pm

Genetic evolution hasn't any real mysteries. It's cosmological evolution that is mysterious, particularly the fine-tunedness of certain features of it.

The real question is an anthropic one: is brans' dicke a coincidence.

Genetic evolution and natural selection is easy. What's hard is keeping the laws of nature immutable long enough for the same processes to keep happening over and over and over, e.g., an element changing if you add just one neutron or electron, etc. You could do this billions of years ago and the same thing would happen. That consistency is the mystery. The fine-tunedness staying that way for soooooooo long.
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Re: Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

Postby Sculptor » Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:42 pm

promethean75 wrote:Genetic evolution hasn't any real mysteries. It's cosmological evolution that is mysterious, particularly the fine-tunedness of certain features of it.

The real question is an anthropic one: is brans' dicke a coincidence.

Genetic evolution and natural selection is easy. What's hard is keeping the laws of nature immutable long enough for the same processes to keep happening over and over and over, e.g., an element changing if you add just one neutron or electron, etc. You could do this billions of years ago and the same thing would happen. That consistency is the mystery. The fine-tunedness staying that way for soooooooo long.



There is no problem here.
The universe is as it is observed to be, by and large. If you find that amazing then that too is a feature of the universe. But since you do not have another different universe to compare you have no basis upon which to find uniformitarianism a problem.
That is just the way the universe works. If you don't like it then show me another one which makes more sense.

The universe abides. DO not think to adjust the universe to your thinking; you need to adjust your thinking to the universe.
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Re: Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

Postby Sculptor » Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:45 pm

Kathrina wrote:You can't threaten me!

:lol:

You have not spoken on the subject even once, you've always just said your very subjective opinion. Then I asked you something and you immediately became abusive.


:lol:

I bet you say that to all the boys!!

It's a worn out strategy. No one is fooled by it.
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Re: Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

Postby promethean75 » Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:08 pm

no it's not that simple, sculp. we need a semiempirical ansatz to compute anharmonic contributions to the free energy in the universe, first, before we can know for sure.

Little help here, parodites.
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Re: Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:14 pm

Well it really is. The idea of a variability in the laws of nature is an anthropomorphization of the laws of nature. See they are not really laws, such as men give and can alter laws. They are just observations. Called laws for convenience's sake.

Damn string theorists. The idea of a variability in observed patterns in physical phenomena is a philosophical one, with no relation to observed reality, a scientific method, or math. Math needs something to be applied to.

Oh no but scientists are superior to philosophy. Is that right?
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Re: Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:37 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:They are just observations. Called laws for convenience's sake.

Called "laws" because they are thought to be divinely unbreakable? -
- until they discover they weren't gods but a ghosts. :D

Truly there is but one actual God (determiner of what can or cannot be - "Divine Law")
      - "worship no other".

God = "the Reality of your Situation" (and by many other descriptions) - James S Saint
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Re: Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

Postby Sculptor » Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:33 pm

promethean75 wrote:no it's not that simple, sculp. we need a semiempirical ansatz to compute anharmonic contributions to the free energy in the universe, first, before we can know for sure.

Little help here, parodites.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

Postby phoneutria » Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:40 pm

i apall the notion that in order to validate philosophy
one must attack science
it is akin to validating cuisine by attacking pastries
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Re: Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:56 pm

phoneutria wrote:i apall the notion that in order to validate philosophy
one must attack science
it is akin to validating cuisine by attacking pastries

I think more like validating the tree by attacking the apple and those who partake - :-?
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Re: Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

Postby phoneutria » Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:34 pm

no because cuisine is a methodology that applies to physical things
has it's own rules and procedures
and pastry cooking is a subset of it
in which there are particular rules and procedures
that apply only to it
but not to the whole of cuisine
though are within it
however pastry does not succeed
if you use the whole set of rules of procedures of cuisine
it only works within its own subset
you don't make pie dough as you would make pasta dough

i hope that you don't assume that
because I hardly have any time to post
that i post without thinking
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Re: Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:57 pm

phoneutria wrote:i hope that you don't assume that
because I hardly have any time to post
that i post without thinking

That is not the reason. O:)
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Re: Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

Postby phoneutria » Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:02 pm

what a fine contribution

you wanna say something to me
just say it bitch
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Re: Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:08 pm

:lol:

The only thing I think about you is that you have not been understanding my questions. So I leave it alone.

And perhaps now - that you might consider being a little less suspicious and paranoid. O:)
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Re: Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:09 pm

Yo who is attacking science?
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Re: Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

Postby phoneutria » Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:02 am

obsrvr524 wrote::lol:

The only thing I think about you is that you have not been understanding my questions. So I leave it alone.

And perhaps now - that you might consider being a little less suspicious and paranoid. O:)


i understood your question to be
"Is natural selection all that there is?"
my answer was
"not necessarily, but it is all that is required"

if you want to elaborate
or feel that that answer is insufficient
be my guest

and i am not suspicious
i am short fused
there's a difference
the difference is that
i don't want to have to fucking dance around
an open ended fucking sentence
or milk information out of you
either you say "that's not why"
immediately followed by the why
or you don't fucking say anything at all
respect my time
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Re: Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

Postby Magnus Anderson » Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:23 am

obsrvr524 wrote:Answering the title question logically requires knowing the very precise definition of "Darwinistic Principle".


So what exactly is "Darwinistic selection principle"?
"Let's keep the debate about poor people in the US specifically. It's the land of opportunity. So everyone has an opportunity. That means everyone can get money. So some people who don't have it just aren't using thier opportunities, and then out of those who are using them, then most squander what they gain through poor choices, which keeps them poor. It's no one else's fault. The end."

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Re: Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

Postby obsrvr524 » Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:05 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:Answering the title question logically requires knowing the very precise definition of "Darwinistic Principle".


So what exactly is "Darwinistic selection principle"?

Mostly an excuse for global manipulation of populations - :D

But in loose terms it seems to just be -
Darwin believed that this struggle for natural resources allowed individuals with certain physical and mental traits to succeed more frequently than others, and that these traits accumulated in the population over time, which under certain conditions could lead to the descendants being so different that they would be defined as a new species.

But I see that as insufficient to adequately define social evolution.
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Re: Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

Postby promethean75 » Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:09 pm

"Mostly an excuse for global manipulation of populations"

See you just did that. Darwin didnt do that... just like marx didnt do what happened when some who claimed to be marxists created a disaster instead of a revolution.

Both creationists and evolutionists have used their doctrines to enforce hierarchies, claiming them to be natural and unchangeable. For the former, class structure rightfully mirrored cosmic order - the polis represented the law of god on erf, and each took their station by god's order. The church was the first institution to use creationism as a weapon in class warfare. Long story and very marxist so you wouldnt like it.

For the latter, Darwin was the license for, and translates to, nationalism, fascism, imperialism, and all political forms that take these hierarchies for granted. There is no god, and man must take his place.

The latter camp is right, but they've by and large abused the power and responsibility that comes with playing god.
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Re: Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:40 pm

Alls I'm saying is, how committed to science can you be if you take any attack on Darwin as an attack on science?

To make an argument that philosophy has no competition with, but a claim on science, is not an argument against science. And in fact, who can it benefit to deny the philosophical component of science, or in general to attempt to discredit philosophy? See the love of wisdom, as a pursuit, precludes the love of, say, the king. In today's world, the king's equivalent. Now, a strong technocratic body of engineers, that a king can stand. Meanwhile science stagnates, because without the love of wisdom as the pursuit it is a part of, no advances can be made. This also would not bother a king much, they would as much rule a mass of goat farmers as the world of The Jetsons. Whatever advances were already made suits them fine, and also, only in so far as they can be twisted to suit whatever royal agenda he has. Which, unfailingly, is tighter control of his royal dominions. Knowledge will never be the goal, much less wisdom.

Philosophy is also the only field from which the charge of "boot-licker" can come. As many have proven on this very website, coming from any other camp it only means "we want different boots to lick." I mean, as soon as the "right camp" came to power, all these rebels suddenly became very pro-authority.

So, to any with any interest in actual knowledge, actual wisdom, read my post from the last page again and confront these charges against Darwin.
Last edited by Pedro I Rengel on Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

Postby promethean75 » Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:12 pm

Being whelmed is a necessary part of life and experience, and sometimes being underwhelmed is better than being overwhelmed.
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Re: Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

Postby Sculptor » Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:40 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Alls I'm saying is, how committed to science can you be if you take any attack on Darwin as an attack on science?

Dumb question.
Darwin's principle is unavoidably scientific. It's as sure and apples fall from trees.

You have to be pretty stupid to pretent the earth is flat, or that apples fall upwards.

So, to any with any interest in actual knowledge, actual wisdom, read my post from the last page again and confront these charges against Darwin.


You have not laid any charges against Darwin, since you simply enough do not understand the principle of natural selection.

You can make up your little straw men as much as you like and have fun setting light to them. But that is not the same as laying charges.
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Re: Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

Postby Sculptor » Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:44 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Alls I'm saying is, how committed to science can you be if you take any attack on Darwin as an attack on science?



On a lighter note.


I see you include George C. Scott's little fantasy about Patton, in which he claims to have read Rommel's book. I suggest you read some of Darwin's work before you claim to know better.
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Re: Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:56 pm

Well actually it's Francis Ford Coppola's little fantasy. George C. Scott just directed it.

I see we have a Silhouette on our hands. What is the first and last name of your lady friend who died from the covid herr young man?
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Re: Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

Postby Magnus Anderson » Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:52 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:But in loose terms it seems to just be -

Darwin believed that this struggle for natural resources allowed individuals with certain physical and mental traits to succeed more frequently than others, and that these traits accumulated in the population over time, which under certain conditions could lead to the descendants being so different that they would be defined as a new species.


But I see that as insufficient to adequately define social evolution.


I would say that's a pretty bad explanation.
"Let's keep the debate about poor people in the US specifically. It's the land of opportunity. So everyone has an opportunity. That means everyone can get money. So some people who don't have it just aren't using thier opportunities, and then out of those who are using them, then most squander what they gain through poor choices, which keeps them poor. It's no one else's fault. The end."

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Re: Is the Darwinistic Selection Principle False?

Postby Sculptor » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:00 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Well actually it's Francis Ford Coppola's little fantasy. George C. Scott just directed it.

I see we have a Silhouette on our hands. What is the first and last name of your lady friend who died from the covid herr young man?


The fantasy of Patton was generally the creation of Scott's anbsurd invention. Writers are wirth shit in the film business.
It was Franklin J. Schaffner hw directed it.
Directors and stars (when has all powerful as Scott anyway) are the guys with the creative power.
Coppola is only 1 of 4 writing credits.

As for naming names. This is about Darwin and not about COVID.

But I suppose for you, its one way to avoid addressing any issues of substance.
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