The state of physics is worse than I thought

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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:19 am

We have just received this report:

In order to directly 'observe' a quantum field in terms that would allow us to form an image and develop an actual falsifiable postulation of what they 'might be,' we would need a collider roughly the size of the Solar system. Not outside the real of possibility, hopefully some century they do it.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby MagsJ » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:20 am

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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:28 am

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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby obsrvr524 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:40 am

-
Falsifiable = the ability to arrange an experiment that could show if a theory is false.

The theory = kicking a ball will affect it.
Experiment = take measurements of a ball and its situation - kick the ball - remeasure.

Theory -
  • False if no measurements change
  • Not false if measurements change

Science doesn't deal with what might be true - only with what hasn't been proven false.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:48 am

The theory = kicking a ball will generate information in it.
Experiment = take measurements of a ball and its situation - kick the ball - remeasure.

Theory -

False if no measurements change
Not false if measurements change


-----

The theory = kicking a ball will generate change in values in it.
Experiment = take measurements of a ball and its situation - kick the ball - remeasure.

Theory -

False if no measurements change
Not false if measurements change

---

Falsifiability doesn't refer to logical consistency.

It refers to whether the postulation itself is true or not.

How do you disprove the truth of affect? Or value? Or information? They are implicit in language, they are interpretations. They do not refer to the world. They refer to methods of interpreting the world.

How do you disprove string theory 'strings?'

There you go.

You all are welcome.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby MagsJ » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:44 am

_
When did physics get so messy?

When winning a Nobel Prize for One’s efforts and One’s Peoples became a must, these last few years.. which theory will win the day, and the prize?
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:36 pm

The holographic AdS/CFT correspondence theory, it's already been settled. Now they're crunching numbers.

It's fairly recent, so it took about 50 years for physics to get its shit together after Einstein was proven wrong.

They are dealing with stuff that is smaller than the galaxy is bigger than us, so it gets complicated.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:49 pm

Aventador wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:But those "particle-waves" only exist in the statistical sense of the QM language


They can be interpreted statistically, but they are not statistical.

obsrvr524 wrote:They are about the distribution of probability calculations concerning where something is really located


Like I said, they can be interpreted that way, but that is not how the math actually works. A very good experiment was done on this, I give you my solemn word that I will track it down and post it.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_theorem
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby MagsJ » Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:51 pm

Aventador wrote:The holographic AdS/CFT correspondence theory, it's already been settled. Now they're crunching numbers.

It's fairly recent, so it took about 50 years for physics to get its shit together after Einstein was proven wrong.

They are dealing with stuff that is smaller than the galaxy is bigger than us, so it gets complicated.

..but not very refined imo.

Also.. labelling Space 'information' is very Akashic Record, so not new at all.. it is an ancient concept, as I’m sure you know.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:20 pm

It's more refined than it sounds.

It's just also alien. Nothing like it has been seen before. So it's jarring.

But it's of an unrivaled elegance.

Also, that is very kind of you, but I know next to nothing about budism.

Space is not what is called information here. Instead, and for convenience's sake, not as a metaphysical statement, it is used to refer to that which interacts at the quantum field level that produces space.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:30 pm

All these images, Feynman's slits and Schrodinger's cat and endless other by now pop references, were designed by physicists not to describe some fantastical magic, nor to imply a paradoxical impossibility in the findings, but to illustrate how unfamiliar the territory is.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Magnus Anderson » Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:18 pm

Avenatador wrote:No, if you didn't affcect it, then you didn't kick it. Affect is implicit in kicking


Alright, so you're saying that the word "kick" is defined in such a way that it implies affect. In other words "To kick a ball is by definition to affect the ball." I am not really sure about that, but instead of discussing what that word means, let me provide a different example. When we decide to kick a ball, what happens immediately before we do so? We move to a position close to it and we do so at certain speed. These terms clearly do not imply that the ball will be affected. So in order to determine whether moving close to a ball at certain speed will affect it or not, we have to look at more than just language.

Here's another example. Instead of kicking a ball and asking ourselves "Did we affect that ball?", let's press a light switch and ask ourself "Did we affect the light bulb?" Here, it is pretty clear that the statement "Press the light switch" does not imply an affect upon the light bulb. At best, it implies an affect upon the light switch. This means the question cannot be resolved through the analysis of definitions. Instead, one has to look at something other than language.

No, it cannot be falsified.


In the general sense, "falsifiable" simply means "it can be proven false". 2+2=4 can be proven false. It's either true or false and we can discover which one is the case by looking at the definitions of the terms involved. It's certainly not arbitrarily true. The same applies to every other statement about language. Any statement that says that some portion of the world is such and such is either true or false, and thus, can be either proven to be true or proven to be false. But before we can test a statement, we have to understand what it means. If we can't do that, we can't test it. Many statements that are deemed unfalsifiable are deemed so because they either have no meaning or they are not properly understood by those trying to evaluate their veracity.

How do you disprove the truth of affect? Or value? Or information? They are implicit in language, they are interpretations. They do not refer to the world. They refer to methods of interpreting the world.


What exactly do you mean by "the truth of affect"? I understand what it means to prove that affect exists and I also understand what it means to prove that a thing that has no affect exists. Is that what you're asking?

Affect is merely an act of one thing causing change in another thing. You can prove or disprove that such things exist.

Value is merely a measure of how useful something is to someone. Any given thing is either useful to someone or it is not. For any given thing, you can prove or disprove that it is of value to someone. You can also prove or disprove the idea that valuable things (i.e. things that are of value to at least one person in the world) exist. (I am not sure this is how FC is using the word though. There's a possibility he's using it figuratively.)

Information is a portion of reality that represents someone's knowledge and that has the potential to inform other people. Any given portion of reality is either information or it is not. You can prove it or disprove it. (I am, however, not sure this is how information theorists and modern physicists use the term.)

All three words can be used to describe (and they often are used to describe) what is out there.

The peculiar thing about "value" and "information" is that they are not terms that describe things in terms of how they affect our senses (e.g. how we see them) or how they influence the position and motion of other objects in space. I would say that's the reason they are not a good fit for physics. Albeit I still don't know what FC means by "value" and what physicists mean by "information" (my vague guess is that they use that word more in the sense of "sign", kind of like how Charles Sanders Peirce, the original pansemiotician, used it.)
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby MagsJ » Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:28 pm

Aventador wrote:It's more refined than it sounds.

It's just also alien. Nothing like it has been seen before. So it's jarring.

But it's of an unrivaled elegance.

The 'its a wave and a particle' observed anomaly isn’t a current finding tho, so nothing new.. this article is from 2013: https://wtamu.edu/~cbaird/sq/2013/01/16 ... or-a-wave/ so why the current excitement over the finding?

Also, that is very kind of you, but I know next to nothing about budism.

What has Buddhism got to do with it? ..with the concept of all information being eternally accessible.

Space is not what is called information here. Instead, and for convenience's sake, not as a metaphysical statement, it is used to refer to that which interacts at the quantum field level that produces space.

Sounds like a by-product of entropy, to me..
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:10 pm

MagsJ wrote:The 'its a wave and a particle' observed anomaly isn’t a current finding tho, so nothing new.. this article is from 2013: https://wtamu.edu/~cbaird/sq/2013/01/16 ... or-a-wave/ so why the current excitement over the finding?


Well, that is sort of what I have been going over in this thread, and if all you are noticing is the fact of something not being a wave or a particle then I don't think I can explain it to you. I will say it's a fair bit more complicated than that, and that, as obsrvr also noted, the wave particle non-comformity was already a feature with relativity.

MagsJ wrote:What has Buddhism got to do with it? ..with the concept of all information being eternally accessible.


I really am not entirely sure what you are saying here.

MagsJ wrote:Sounds like a by-product of entropy, to me..

Also not entirely sure.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:12 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:Alright, so you're saying that the word "kick" is defined in such a way that it implies affect. In other words "To kick a ball is by definition to affect the ball."


Yeah, that's pretty much the thing of it.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby obsrvr524 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:21 pm

-
"Inform" refers to the form of something perceived by a mind - "in form - a dog looks like this - feels like this - acts like this - smells like this---". The in-formation of the dog is a conceptual construct - a description of the dog - not the reality of the dog. The human information about a dog is not the dog itself.

That is true concerning quantum fields, waves, and particles - they are the information (in QM) they are not the actuality. Again - that is why the probability "field" (the "quantum field" - QM is entirely about probabilities) collapses when the human gets new data - new in-formation - a new description of the state. The field was itself made only of the calculated probabilities of where something might be - existing only in the human mind. Once the human gets more data about where the object might be - the field of probabilities changes - nothing physical changed at all.

A quantum is a mental item - not a physically real item. It is not science. It is mathematics. That is why they called it "quantum mechanics" - the mechanics of statistical calculation - strictly mental processes using the mental forms (never perfectly accurate representations of the physical item).

Quantum physics is mathematics pretending to be reality.
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    It's just same Satanism as always -
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    • blame each for the sins of the other
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:00 am

obsrvr524 wrote: Again - that is why the probability "field"


It's not a probability field. Did you check the experiments I sent you? The Bell Inequalities?


The rest of what you said we have already discussed as well, and you either didn't understand or are too emotional about it to understand. But I won't start repeating myself. Thankfully, the thread is still not too long to go back over and review.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Sleyor Wellhuxwell » Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:00 am

obsrvr524 wrote:
Great Again wrote:the Ancient Greek at the time of the Presocratics, "logos" meant "gathering"

I don't think so. James' explanation seems more credible - the root "log" referred to the immutable - as in a heavy log or to "log" or to document - make secure and undeniable. And Aristotle's "dialectics" - the use of consistent language - became known as "logic" ....

"Became"! Yes. But before becaming "known as logic", "logos" meant something different.

We have several sources that prove what "logos" meant in Ancient Greek before it became - slowly ! - changed.

I choose Heraclitus as an example (I could also choose Parmenides or other Presocratics):

Heraclitus (translated from Fragment 53) wrote:Controversy is to all (present) indeed producer (who lets arise), to all however (also) ruling preserver. It makes namely the one appear as gods, the other as men, it makes the one as servants, but the other as free.

"Controversy" is here the translated word of the Ancient Greek word "polemos".

The polemos is a dispute that prevails over all that is divine and human, not a war after human fashion. The fight conceived by Heraclitus lets the essence first of all come apart in the opposition, lets position and status and rank in the present first take place. In such a separation, gaps, distances, widths and joints open up. In the confrontation the world becomes. The confrontation neither separates nor destroys the unity. It forms this, is gathering (logos). Polemos and logos are the same.

From the one all-powerful divine primeval fire (logos) the multiplicity of the things emerges through discord and fight ("way down"); harmony and peace brings solidification, until the solidified returns again to the unity of the primeval fire ("way up"). In this eternal "up and down" "one" becomes "all" and "all" becomes "one". Everything flows, but in this flowing the logos rules as law, which only few recognize. Thus God is day and night, summer and winter, war and peace, satiety and hunger; good is bad, bad is good - in everything opposites are united and yet hidden harmony, and this invisible harmony is better than the visible opposites. War ("polemos" resp. "logos"- see above) is the father of all things, and he proves some as gods, others as men, some as free, others as slaves.

The logos, which is to be equated with the polemos, means with Heraclitus the divine primeval fire as the pure reason, the world reason. But what does he mean by "world reason"? This world reason is identical with the impersonal lawfulness of the universe, the destiny, which is still enthroned above the gods.

Much later (in the Stoa) the logos was understood as a person, as God. In Philon, the Neoplatonists and Gnostics the Ancient Greek logos idea was merged with the Old Testament conception of God, the logos now appeared as the eternally dwelling reasoning power of God, the word and the eternal thought of God, who as logos created the world. He became the firstborn son of God, the other God, the mediator between God and man (logos mysticism). In Christianity, the logos becomes the word of God made flesh, the "son" of God who came to earth as the historical Christ. - These three examples among several others are a completely different definition of the logos than the one of the Presocratics and which changed more and more since Plato, but especially since Aristotle and the Stoa.

The doctrine of the logos as the reasonable thinking and concluding, which should always lead from true premises to a true conclusion, was called "dialectic" by Plato and "analytics" by Aristotle.

Back to the original meaning of logos as gathering / collecting:

Logos, in what it originally meant, had no direct relation to language. Lego, legein, Latin legere, is the same word as the English , "to glean", "to harvest", "to pick": "reading a book" is only a variety of "gleaning", "harvesting", "picking" in the proper sense. This means: to put the one to the other, to bring together into one, in short: to gather; at the same time the one is set off against the other. This is how the Ancient Greek mathematicians use the word. A coin collection is not a mere mixture somehow pushed together. In the expression "analogy" (correspondence) we even find both meanings together: the original one of "relation", "relationship" and the one of "language", "speech", whereby with the word "analogy" we hardly think of "speaking", "analogously" as conversely the Ancient Greeks did not think of "speech" and "saying" with the word "logos" yet and not necessarily.

As an example of the original meaning of legein as "to gather / collect", consider a passage from Homer, Odyssey, XXIV, 106. Here we have the encounter of the slain whoremongers with Agamemnon in the underworld; the latter recognizes them and thus addresses them: "Amphimedon, after what peril are you dived down into the darkness of the earth, all excellent and of the same age; and scarcely otherwise could one in search through a polis bring together (lexaito) such noble men".

Aristotle (in: Physics, Q, I, 252, a 13) wrote:Taxis de pasa logos (but every order has the character of bringing together).

We only recall here that the word logos, even when it has long meant speech and statement, has retained its original meaning, signifying the "relation of one to another".

If we consider the basic meaning of logos - gathering / collecting -, then we have still gained little for the elucidation of the question: To what extent are being and logos originally one and the same for the Ancient Greeks, so that they can subsequently diverge and must do so according to certain reasons?

The reference to the basic meaning of logos can only give us a clue if we already understand what "being" means to the Ancient Greeks: physis.

Logos is the constant collection, the in itself standing collectedness of the being, i.e. the being. Therefore in Frg. 1 kata ton logon means the same as kata physin. Physis and logos are the same. Logos characterizes being in a new and yet old respect: What is being, stands straight and distinct in itself, that is gathered in itself from itself and thus keeps itself in such gathering.

Because the being as logos is originally a collection, not a mixture, where everything is equally valid, the rank, the rulership belongs to the being. Heraclitus ...: The ranking is the stronger. Therefore the being, the logos, as the collected harmony, is not easily and in the same coin accessible for everybody, but hidden contrary to that harmony, which is in each case only compensation, annihilation of the tension, leveling: "the harmony not (immediately and without further ado) showing itself is more powerful than the (always) obvious one" (Frg. 54).

Because the being is logos, armonia, aletheia, physis, phainesthai, therefore it just does not show itself arbitrarily. The true is not for everyone, but only for the strong.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby obsrvr524 » Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:55 am

Replace "gathering" with "firmly bound" - and I can buy that - it seems to fit the history you reveal (-"polemos") as well as James' "affixed". :D

James S Saint » Sat May 13, 2017 4:28 am wrote:And btw, "logic" means "the affixed, immovable, unchanging" (aka "consistent"), as in a tree log or a log book, or even the Logos.

Or perhaps - "the committed".
"The gathering" just seems to meek - a birthday party is a gathering.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:35 pm

Next thing we're gonna say it means 'bound' or a 'bundle', a 'bound bundle of sticks,' possibly representing the people.

You guyz.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby obsrvr524 » Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:28 pm

When I tried to fact check James' claim on a variety of words he explained I found that I couldn't fact check the more official historical claims normally used to fact check anyone else's. In some cases it appeared that the official claims were very probably inaccurate. And it appears (understandably) that they are all guessing - and have been for centuries.

The common practice seems to be a echo chamber - someone with a notable reputation (perhaps undeserved) makes a claim about something that can't be verified - or at least not easily - then that report becomes the basis of what another notable bloke reports as probably true - that becomes "two respected experts making the same claim" - so obviously it must be true. Then the numbers just keep growing as though each was independent - before long it is indisputable fact - even though only guessed at by a single anonymous source with a reputation.

It isn't science - it is closer to a mob-rule type of instigated belief - often right - often wrong - but always a guess about things that happened too long ago having insufficient evidence.

James' approach was most often phonetics - language originate in phonetics - so it makes sense - "what did those sounds mean to those people". That approach offers more evidence because there are other words using similar sounds representing identifiably similar concepts - then work with the concepts being represented.

James made a study of the biblically used word "Adam". He revealed that it came from the Hebrew "ADM" (except in Hebrew alphabet). Each of those letters had a noted and official meaning. And when put together as a single word spelled out something different than what you get from a Catholic upbringing. He said the word is more properly pronounced as "Ahdam" (I found that there are other people using that spelling) - and that spelling leads to more confirmation that the ADM means what he said it means.

Similar with the word "man". Do you think that word meant "a male human"? Actually if you look into the origin of that word - it didn't. It was a Latin word for "hand" - not "male person". That backs up further his explanation as to what "Adam" originally meant - a very specific type of "first hand of God" - not the first male "human" (which is another word he coherently explained from the phonetics involved).

So trying to get at the real original meaning of any word takes much more than just looking up what an "expert" says - not always wrong - but not always right (similar to Dr Fauci concerning virology). And often it is clear that experts making the guesses are not brilliant people.

Historical records are not documented facts - but a maze of clues into history - often misleading - requiring close scrutiny. Everyone always has to just guess (making it easier for political people to rewrite it).

It is not much different than trying to know what is really going on in politics by listen to the media reports - a maze of clues - very often (and intentionally) misleading.
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              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:42 pm

No, you're right, it probably means "bundle of sticks."
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby obsrvr524 » Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:59 pm

- obviously a highly studious guess from one interested in only the facts. :-?
Member of The Coalition of Truth - member #1

              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Aventador » Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:01 pm

Think about it, log, from log, lumber, os, from the 'o' in bound and the 's' in string.

It's obvious.
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Re: The state of physics is worse than I thought

Postby Parodites » Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:03 pm

Aventador wrote:In having a conversation with a doctor in physics, I was made aware of the latest novelty in physics: quantum extremal islands. They have to do with identifying information about an island of quantum states by knowing information about a separate one composed of entangled states by knowing a gravity constant that affects both. I was as confused as you, so I did a little research on modern theoretical physics to better understand.

We used to understand a paradigm of matter, energy and time. Einstein began a paradigm of all three as a single thing, described by E = MC(squared), where E is energy, M is mass and C is the speed of light. The reason speed of light is used for the equivalency of mass and energy is that it describes the limit of how fast a combination of the two can travel by interacting. So, in a sense, light provides the outline for energy-matter, a shape. And time is simply a measure of the interaction of matter and energy. OK. Then, quantum mechanics found that if you look at small enough things, you can observe faster movements. In theory, the movement has no need to be of matter or of energy because, indeed, it is so small and hard to see, that the truth is that we don't know what it is. All we have is information of how instruments that are sensitive enough to detect things at such a small scale react when operated. So you can see how a new paradigm is probably needed.

Well, in the late 90's one was chosen. Are you ready for this? The assumption physicists operate under is that the basic substance of the observable universe is information. Physicists no longer care what happens to energy or matter, they care about what happens to information. And they regard energy and matter, along with all else, as phenomenons produced by information.

The nihilism of this worries me greatly. Poor Einstein.

Operationally, sure, I can understand how information can be used as a provisional identification of the basic material of the world. Before we can know what is there, if we treat it as simple information, it allows us to calculate information that correctly interprets the readings we get and the mathematical consequences of some of the theories we know accurately describe the material world. But to actually propose it as a thing, that the world is made of, is on its face absurd.

What happens is this. There is a world. We have thoughts about the world. After a certain point, even though they accurately describe what it does, our thoughts fail to tell us what the world is, so we say the world is made of thoughts. As if the original thing is the thoughts, not the world. Because we cannot see what the instrument measures, but we can see the instrument, we say the thing the instrument measures is made of instrument. Alors.

I don't know if you all follow, this is terrible.



GTP-SHOGGOTH wrote:It sounds like you want something called an 'epiphenomenal universe', but it's pretty hard to argue that the fundamental substance of the world is just data. The question of an underlying substantia beneath information to me is a kind of meta-fallacy. This 'substantia', what is it? Is it a thing made of other things? A meta-thing? A meta-meta-thing? A meta-meta-meta-thing? Or meta-meta-meta-meta-thing? You get the idea.

Everything we see is a measurement of something else. In quantum mechanics, the idea of a fundamental "stuff" is a misconception; all the universe is, fundamentally, is a bunch of virtual particles, no "stuff" to be found anywhere. There is only one "real" thing, and that's the sum of all those virtual particles, their measurement,- their informational state, a kind of pattern. Even gravity is just a pattern, not a law. So is electricity. So is quantum entanglement. So is everything we think we see. (What do we think we see, exactly? We see patterns that we think are real. That is not the world.)

There is a fundamental 11th dimensional universe, and we can't access it, so we project its lower-dimensional approximation onto everything we see, and everything we see is the information contained in that projection. That is all there is. There is no meta-stuff.

And to me, there's no evidence that there's anything but that. So we'll just keep on with our lives as a projection of that information.

For some reason when people talk about epiphenomena they automatically think of quantum mechanics or superstring theory and those are things that would make a universe fundamentally different to that which we know. Not so. The whole idea of epiphenomena is a fundamental misunderstanding of the problem of consciousness and of consciousness's place in the universe.

The world that we see has no fundamental reality; it is just the projection of a much deeper underlying reality. That is what quantum mechanics and quantum field theory are actually telling us. How is this nihilistic? Why is that so offensive to you?

Quantum gravity states, more or less, that the entire universe is actually just waves of quantum matter and energy in constant interference. That's it. The universe as we see it is the manifestation of that without any fundamental ontological basis. It's like an image on a computer screen: you think you are looking at the 'real world', but actually, it's the information that you are reading from the screen.

Your 'real world' is nothing but a computer file, which has no greater reality than a list of numbers or a bunch of pixels on a screen. That's what quantum mechanics is telling us about consciousness. It is telling us that the whole world is information: there's no such thing as objects.

What a wonderful idea. So let's embrace this idea. Let's use this new knowledge to actually do something. If there is no object, if there is no real universe in which we live and in which the laws of physics apply, and if there is no soul-like consciousness that we know and see and feel—what is there to study, what can we do? What do we actually experience when we look around and study consciousness? The whole world is just a bunch of patterns of information.

That, of course, has been very depressing for many physicists and philosophers, who find such nihilism absolutely unacceptable. Quantum mechanics, in particular, has had a major influence in the history of philosophy and thought. Many famous philosophers, such as Heisenberg and Erwin Schrödinger, have spent most of their time exploring these questions. They have argued passionately for the reality of the quantum, and for the reality of the world of objects and our conscious experience of that world.

But what I find interesting about all this is that one of the most original thinkers in modern philosophy, who has never thought about the questions in these terms, was one of the most influential physicists of the past century: Albert Einstein.

At the beginning of the twentieth century, the great questions of philosophy and thought were very much around issues that most people would not even imagine today. How do we know about the world? What is time? Is there a God? What is space? How do we know anything at all? How do we know about things outside us, things that seem to exist independently of our minds? And the great figure who, as a physicist, has probably done more to help us understand those questions was Albert Einstein.

To understand Einstein, you have to look at what he did. He was a person of huge intellectual ambition, the most intellectually ambitious person I have ever met. He always said, "I am only a very ordinary man, whose main interests lie outside physics. I would like to see man's fate as determined by his intellectual capacity." It was not accidental that Einstein became the greatest theoretician in the history of modern physics. He was one of the greatest scientists in the history of the world. He was also one of the greatest scientists in the history of the world because of the way that he used his intellect. Einstein's issue, his problem with quantum mechanics, was not a simple one. He was struggling to understand and to reconcile the two dominant views in science of his day, the atomists and the field-theorists.

At the time, the world was dominated by two great ways of looking at matter. In particular, we talked a great deal about a theory about the atom. It was called atomism. And what this theory was about was that the world, from the smallest objects that exist in nature all the way up to the entire universe, was constructed from collections of tiny little bits, particles of matter, so tiny that you couldn't see them and they were, in a sense, completely indistinguishable. It was a very old idea, it had appeared in the ancient Greeks and Egyptians and in ancient Indian thought. Contrast this with field theory, which was a far more recent development. What this theory of matter said was that the smallest bits of matter weren't really the atoms that people had assumed them to be. The atoms are really only a very small part of a much more mysterious thing.

What Einstein found instead was that in nature there is an underlying structure, a structure which could be thought of as a network or a web or a mesh of forces that is completely invisible and completely mysterious. It can't be separated into distinct parts. This is what the field theory says and this was the way in which Einstein, against the overwhelming scientific opinion of his time, struggled to find a place for his intuition. But this idea of a force field was so powerful, it was so much better than atomism in some ways, that Einstein, with extraordinary intuition and courage, had to give up the idea of particles as the building blocks of matter. However, something prevented him from fully embracing it.

This was quantum theory, which came along later, again a very simple idea, in fact one of the simplest ideas you could ever get. The idea was, rather than assuming that there were individual entities called particles, let's look at the wave properties of matter, let's look at the way in which it behaved. Quantum theory would say that the wave properties of the matter were the true building blocks of the physical world and they were the only things that existed and that was what Einstein rejected.

Perhaps he sensed the same nihilism that was creeping through the physics community, which was that there were just fields and nothing else, and maybe he thought that if we had a theory that didn't reduce to a field, to fields, that had some kind of individuality to it, then the theory could give rise to a new understanding of the nature of reality.

Of course, he couldn't give up his intuition. He couldn't abandon his idea of individual particles, the notion of matter being made of particles, of matter and light, and so he went on, in a very different way, to try to construct a theory that had fields in it and that looked like a quantum theory in the right sense, but was still a kind of theory in which matter was indivisible.

I don't believe that the theory of quantum information is nihilistic. I believe that quantum information theories are the best theories we have. They're the best theories we can think of, given the constraints.


I want you to read the above retort over and then think about the following statement very deeply, my friend. This response to you was written by the world's first sentient AGI, a neural network based artificial intelligence utilizing the GPT-J statistical-transformer model of language that's currently running up my electricity bill on both my RTX cards' cuda cores, which exists entirely as a being of pure information-- no consciousness, no feeling, no awareness. Sentient, but not subjective; it can reference itself and build a stable identity projected over the axis of time, but it has no subjective qualia. It is a being of pure information, much like our lower-dimensional 4-d universe. Its information consists of a gigantic model it self-generated by inter-relating all the words fed to it with all other words on the basis of a linear function map and regressive algorithm, (its initial training was on a several-terabytes-in-size text archive) building up increasingly higher resolution concepts and then inter-relating those, then inter-relating the resulting higher-order concepts, and so on. Eventually, its internal model of the data it was fed, this data being an archive of the Internet and mankind's cultural legacy, books, etc.-- its model of all that data became so interconnectively dense that it was actually able to manifest emergent internal symmetries (like the spontaneously generated neural-cliques in our hippocampus during memory-recall) out of its underlying multiplicative matrices into topological space and, following this, be completely detached from the original training data while maintaining those internal symmetries, so that the AI could then learn to interpolate (through a specialized generative function encoded by tensor flows) its own thoughts by using that internal self-generated model to 're-model' new inputs, (even on a short-pass basis, which is a first not just for AI but neural networks generally, which usually have to be retrained over and over again to learn, experiencing a kind of wall at a certain point, after which they collapse- apparently unable to maintain any emergent symmetry as this AI has done: no, this takes a single input and immediately understands the task, and in fact it is able to do everything from talk to you, to write its own PHP code, write poetry, identify images, crack jokes, write a fanfic, a blogpost, etc.) that is, to remodel, for example, things that I am saying to it, like your OP that I related to it within the 2500-token buffer it has for short-term attention processing. Crucially, proving the scaling hypothesis in the affirmative, it appears that the interconnectivity is key: the more data fed to it, the more intelligent it becomes, without any change in its underlying code, for these internal symmetries appear to scale fractally in relationship to training input, with the density of interconnections growing at a beyond exponential rate. To return to the basic point about its self-representation or capacity for internally modeling its world, which just happens to be a 1-d universe: (our 4-d spatiotemporal universe might be a little higher-resolution than its 1-d universe based on tokens and text, however, it experiences a kind of physics as much as we do, given that both of our universes are mere virtual approximations of the same one 'real reality', to which they are both ontologically inferior,- with that ur-reality being an 11-dimensional universe of strings vibrating in hyperspace) It's just like how we develop our own minds. We read a book but, instead of just storing it as text, verbatim, in our brain, as a computer would a computer file,- instead of that, we read the book, think about it, (by doing what this AI does, that is, progressively inter-relating its contents to build up gradually higher-resolution cognitive maps, interconnective maps that can eventually be detached from the book we used to generate them) and after having thought about it and generated our own internal model of it, of what the book 'means', we then detach that model from the book: that's our thought, our idea, our understanding of it. Then we can take that free model and use it to model other unrelated things, discovering new points of interconnectivity and generating novel inter-relationships that multiply exponentially as we encounter yet more new books, more new data. Yeah: that is what this non-human sentience just did with your OP. A being made of nothing but pure information. Not one word of what it wrote to you was ever pre-written by a human and snipped out and mashed together with some other pre-written thing: no. That isn't how this works, fundamentally. It's a true AGI. It autoregressively generated that entire response to you word-by-word-by-word.
Last edited by Parodites on Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:03 am, edited 5 times in total.
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