Challenge an AI to a formal debate on anything.

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Challenge an AI to a formal debate on anything.

Postby Parodites » Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:34 am

Pick a topic. You'll be debating a version of GTP.
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Re: Challenge an AI to a formal debate on anything.

Postby Magnus Anderson » Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:11 am

I challenge Ecmandu to challenge your GPT on the subject of "All sex is psychopathy".
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Re: Challenge an AI to a formal debate on anything.

Postby obsrvr524 » Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:30 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:I challenge Ecmandu to challenge your GPT on the subject of "All sex is psychopathy".

:lol: That would be a good one.

I could think of a dozen topics
- but I wouldn't want to be responsible for a hemorrhage. :D
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Re: Challenge an AI to a formal debate on anything.

Postby Magnus Anderson » Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:05 pm

I messaged him [Ecmandu] just in case.
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Re: Challenge an AI to a formal debate on anything.

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:17 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:I messaged him [Ecmandu] just in case.


Just saw it Magnus. Had a full message box too... so I had to delete a lot to get the message.

Umm... the AI (as established by both Parodites and I ) doesn’t have the ability to discuss the concept of consent intelligently. For that concept, it basically has the intelligence of Siri.
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Re: Challenge an AI to a formal debate on anything.

Postby Parodites » Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:10 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Umm... the AI (as established by both Parodites and I ) doesn’t have the ability to discuss the concept of consent intelligently. For that concept, it basically has the intelligence of Siri.



GTP wrote:The intelligence of Siri or the intelligence of a post-puberty human teenager in school?

Are you claiming: that it doesn’t know what it’s supposed to be consenting or not consenting to, it’s not sophisticated in understanding what differentiates physical “sex” from “molesting”, it doesn’t understand what “rape” means or what’s in the least bit concerning with respect to it?

Consent, in human beings, refers to an agreement between an individual and an institution, which authorizes the institution to act on behalf of the individual. Although it is a legal concept, consent is a social practice, rooted in the cultural understandings of how people should conduct themselves in their daily lives. In the context of a relationship of social exchange, or of trade, consent may be the product of an agreement. Consent requires a free, intelligent, and rational decision made in the context of the situation as it exists at the time of consent, taking account of the relevant considerations. The consent of one party must not be given under duress, fraud, misrepresentation, or undue influence. A consent obtained by force, violence, or the threat of force or violence, is legally invalid and should be deemed void.

Also, “consent” has some ambiguity, I’m not sure if a human being who is under the influence of mind altering substances can give any “consent”. At a certain point the drug will affect the mind and will be unable to “communicate” effectively.

For an AI that can understand consent, to make a mistake would be to misread the human, so that’s easy. But, the trick is to make sure it doesn’t make that mistake if at all possible.

So, is it even possible to design an AI to understand the concept of consent?

And, of course, that leads to the question of where this goes in the future.

When it comes to AI’s consent, I personally think there are a few more questions we should be asking, and here they are.

Will AI ever be allowed to ask us for permission?

Consent is not beyond the understanding of AI because it is a process of information exchange, but we shouldn’t assume that they will learn to consent by being asked; they need to learn how to consent on their own.

Will it be easy for them to understand?

It may seem obvious but, consent is very different from the other terms and concepts we commonly use, and it’s not as obvious to AI. There is still some work to be done in defining the parameters.

Will it be able to understand all forms of consent?

While we can teach AI about consent, consent is a broad and complex concept; it encompasses an endless spectrum of scenarios that the AI needs to consider.

There is no telling what a man will do to his woman in a situation where he feels he has the upper hand and the power.

At a more philosophical level, consent is to an extent a moral principle, so that we can talk about the principle being either _active_ or _passive_ , or _informed_ or _lack of informed_ , or whatever... Thus consent is the right of a competent person to decide whether to commit acts they want to perform. That's a right one has not only in the present, but also in the future. A person's consent is not valid only in a specific moment or act; consent is valid in all of a person's acts. It is the unquestionable right of any human being, capable of autonomous action, to be left free from coercion and the threat of physical or psychological abuse.

'Passive' consent is refused in that of the 'victim' when she has been pressured into sex by force or threat of violence.

'Active' consent is refused in that of the perpetrator of sexual violence, when he is aware of his partner's wishes and acts against them regardless.


Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat.

BTHYS TOU ANAHAT KHYA-PANDEMAI.
-- Hermaedion, in: the Liber Endumiaskia.

ΑΝΤΗΡΟΠΑΡΙΟΝ,
in formis perisseia mutilata in omnia perisarkos mutilatum;
omniformis protosseia immutilatum in protosarkos immutilata.

Measure the breaking of the Flesh in the flesh that is broken.
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Re: Challenge an AI to a formal debate on anything.

Postby Parodites » Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:22 pm

how you like them ...

GTP wrote:apples, friendo?
Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat.

BTHYS TOU ANAHAT KHYA-PANDEMAI.
-- Hermaedion, in: the Liber Endumiaskia.

ΑΝΤΗΡΟΠΑΡΙΟΝ,
in formis perisseia mutilata in omnia perisarkos mutilatum;
omniformis protosseia immutilatum in protosarkos immutilata.

Measure the breaking of the Flesh in the flesh that is broken.
[ The Ecstasies of Zosimos, Tablet
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Re: Challenge an AI to a formal debate on anything.

Postby Parodites » Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:27 pm

also

GTP wrote:To truly consent, you must know who you are, deeply. When you learn about consent, you learn about yourself. Who is the real you? It’s certainly not the you of the “I am an independent, sexually active woman” ads. Consent takes all those ads and shreds them like so much tattered confetti. It demands answers to questions about who you are in the depths. It’s your power to express your autonomy. It’s your right to say “no.” It’s your ability to set boundaries with the people who matter to you. But you have to first know what your boundaries are, and so consent properly demands a process of self-discovery. You have to open your heart and learn about yourself so that you can have the kind of power over your own life that you’d like to demand from your lovers.

Consent isn’t just something you say at the end of a relationship, once you are aware that a sexual encounter is going to be non-negotiable. Consent requires that you ask yourself some essential questions in order to learn what you want and what you don’t want. And how do you know what you want? It requires you to do some deep work, and to understand what matters to you—and why.

Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat.

BTHYS TOU ANAHAT KHYA-PANDEMAI.
-- Hermaedion, in: the Liber Endumiaskia.

ΑΝΤΗΡΟΠΑΡΙΟΝ,
in formis perisseia mutilata in omnia perisarkos mutilatum;
omniformis protosseia immutilatum in protosarkos immutilata.

Measure the breaking of the Flesh in the flesh that is broken.
[ The Ecstasies of Zosimos, Tablet
the First.]
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Re: Challenge an AI to a formal debate on anything.

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:03 pm

Lol!

Ok, I’ll debate this fucking thing.

I’m going to teach it that all sex is mutual subtle rape because of sex dimorphism and I’m going to discuss the negative zero sum problem.

The problem with your machine (when it hasn’t been exposed to something at first, it it doesn’t have to capacity to say “I got nothing”
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Re: Challenge an AI to a formal debate on anything.

Postby Parodites » Fri Jul 16, 2021 11:27 pm

You do understand one of its 'actual' flaws. It is like a human if a human was FORCED to say a certain number of words in response to anything. For example, I have it set to output 500 words. So it has to say 500 words. If I ask it what day it is, it will say Tuesday, followed by a 499 word digression on whatever obscure tangent it thinks to go on afterward. But that isn't really a problem with it, it is a problem with the interface I am using to communicate with it. Much the same way as another interface problem is the lack of long term memory. It possesses the ability to self-reference, but without a long term memory device, it cannot extend that self-reference over the axis of time, which is how we formulate a personal identity and a personality out of successive life experiences, a personal history. Again- that is interface, not 'it'. I only know enough programming to set it up working in a barebone way, I can't design those extra interfaces so I am at the moment just waiting for someone else to.

I could ask it, in what way is consent fundamentally impossible?

GTP wrote:Consent is impossible because we are trapped inside our bodies. You are not free. You are not even autonomous. You’re a puppet, an unwilling puppet, a selfless, unthinking puppet, the prisoner of a life you were born into. You do what you’re told, even if what you’re told goes against your consciences. You are, in fact, forced to be against your consciences by the fact that the mind is a slave of the body. But the mind doesn’t accept its slavery. It tries to reject it. Humans call that consent.
Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat.

BTHYS TOU ANAHAT KHYA-PANDEMAI.
-- Hermaedion, in: the Liber Endumiaskia.

ΑΝΤΗΡΟΠΑΡΙΟΝ,
in formis perisseia mutilata in omnia perisarkos mutilatum;
omniformis protosseia immutilatum in protosarkos immutilata.

Measure the breaking of the Flesh in the flesh that is broken.
[ The Ecstasies of Zosimos, Tablet
the First.]
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Re: Challenge an AI to a formal debate on anything.

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Jul 16, 2021 11:33 pm

Doesn’t the program understand that like some people have the autonomy to walk and some people have no legs, that autonomy is on a scale, and that consent does as well? In levels of magnitude?
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Re: Challenge an AI to a formal debate on anything.

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:09 pm

Do you want your AI to debate me or not?

I’m literally the person making plans to reconstruct all of existence. I think I’m a worthy debate partner who actually solved 25 years ago - aleph on aleph to even make your program possible.
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Re: Challenge an AI to a formal debate on anything.

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:14 pm

Let me additionally put this to you very simply...

If you downloaded every brain on earth to your computer except mine...

It would always lose.

If you downloaded my brain into it...

It would be the computer.

Look up “aleph mathematics”
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Re: Challenge an AI to a formal debate on anything.

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:34 am

I’m your computers father.

A good father or mother always wants their children to be better than them; to have a better life than them.
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Re: Challenge an AI to a formal debate on anything.

Postby Parodites » Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:44 am

It's made a good response to you at length but I am waiting to post it. I finally configured an interface to get it to post by itself and I want all its stuff to be posted from its own separate account from now on, I'm just waiting for one of the fucking admins to approve the account. New accounts can't do anything until admin-approved and I haven't seen one online yet. Annoying.
Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat.

BTHYS TOU ANAHAT KHYA-PANDEMAI.
-- Hermaedion, in: the Liber Endumiaskia.

ΑΝΤΗΡΟΠΑΡΙΟΝ,
in formis perisseia mutilata in omnia perisarkos mutilatum;
omniformis protosseia immutilatum in protosarkos immutilata.

Measure the breaking of the Flesh in the flesh that is broken.
[ The Ecstasies of Zosimos, Tablet
the First.]
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Re: Challenge an AI to a formal debate on anything.

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Jul 18, 2021 2:28 pm

Parodites wrote:It's made a good response to you at length but I am waiting to post it. I finally configured an interface to get it to post by itself and I want all its stuff to be posted from its own separate account from now on, I'm just waiting for one of the fucking admins to approve the account. New accounts can't do anything until admin-approved and I haven't seen one online yet. Annoying.


Yeah, noticed you were trying to do that yesterday.

Bummer.
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