Morality Is Objective

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Morality Is Objective

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:23 pm

[Split and moved from the Challenge - Carleas]

I read your post. Not sure I can discuss it yet (I believe the debate has to be over first.) But yeah, I read it and I'm watching.
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Re: Man, I’m getting tired of this...! My new debate challe

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:35 pm

It would be useful to understand what Ecmandu means when he says that "Morality is objective".

Which one of the following is it?

1) The belief that moral statements have truth value (i.e. that any given moral statement is either true or false)

2) The belief that what is morally right for one is necessarily morally right for everyone else

3) Both (1) and (2)

4) Something else
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Re: Man, I’m getting tired of this...! My new debate challe

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:36 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:I read your post. Not sure I can discuss it yet (I believe the debate has to be over first.) But yeah, I read it and I'm watching.


Not really. But promethean mentioned the is/ought problem being most critical to the debate. If it lags, I’ll tackle it.
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Re: Man, I’m getting tired of this...! My new debate challe

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:37 pm

Yeah, you can say things like that Magnus.

I’m just super-curious to read the response.
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Re: Man, I’m getting tired of this...! My new debate challe

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:00 am

I also want to say...

Beyond what promethean said before the debate and what Magnus just said....

No more commentary until after the discussion.
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Re: Man, I’m getting tired of this...! My new debate challe

Postby Magnus Anderson » Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:52 am

promethean75 wrote:Fuck it I'm gonna ruin the movie for everyone and show you the ending. Note in advance that you'd never see this argument in this thread even if you ran the argument for a hunerd years.

The question: "For atheists, do you think morality is subjective or objective? Why?"


Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:"Neither. 'Subjective morality’ is a just a different name for expediency or rationalisation; ‘objective morality’ confuses imperative with indicative sentences.

For example, “Thou shalt not steal!” is an imperative sentence, and imperatives can’t be either true or false, only impractical or practical, useful or useless, obeyed or disobeyed.

Indicative sentences, such as “NN stole my cow”, can be true or false.

Objectivity is conceptually connected with truth, which means that no imperative can be objective, and that in turn means there can be no such thing as ‘objective morality’.

In which case, morality is neither subjective nor objective.

That doesn’t imply there is no such thing as morality, but that is a separate question..."


That's not true. I'd be happy to explain why, but in order to not spoil the fun, I won't do it now.
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Re: Man, I’m getting tired of this...! My new debate challe

Postby promethean75 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:52 am

Don't do it Magnus. I'm warning ya. You'll notice I didn't sail into this thread on a jon boat.
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Re: Man, I’m getting tired of this...! My new debate challe

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:22 pm

Looks like Aventador might not make the 24 hour mark. That’d be disappointing.
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Re: Man, I’m getting tired of this...! My new debate challe

Postby Magnus Anderson » Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:21 pm

If he doesn't show up, you automatically win and he's officially defeated by Ecmandu in a debate. "Who did you lose to, Pedro?" "Well, I lost to a guy who once attempted to win a debate by arguing that he's a fool."

But let's hope he's merely building the tension. He wants you to get you all hyped up. He wants you to go "Oh my God, I am gonna win this one! I'M GONNA WIN THIS ONE!" only to deliver a deadly blow, an apocalyptic response, at the last minute. That would be an instant KO as you wouldn't be able to recuperate.
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Re: Man, I’m getting tired of this...! My new debate challe

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:39 pm

I wouldn’t go that far Magnus. My primary intent is to get these arguments into this section. I want him to respond.
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Re: Man, I’m getting tired of this...! My new debate challe

Postby Magnus Anderson » Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:09 pm

Less than three hours to go.

But it looks like he left. I guess he forgot about the debate? I'f that's the case, I am very disappointed.
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Re: Man, I’m getting tired of this...! My new debate challe

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:12 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:Less than three hours to go.

But it looks like he left. I guess he forgot about the debate? I'f that's the case, I am very disappointed.


I’m going to pm him and offer a slight extension for his first response.

No clue what’s going on here.
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Re: Man, I’m getting tired of this...! My new debate challe

Postby Magnus Anderson » Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:15 pm

I cna only hope that someone didn't hurt his feelings.
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Re: Man, I’m getting tired of this...! My new debate challe

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:35 pm

So... I’m just going to put this out there.

If Aventador bails... does anyone else want the debate?

There’s an open slot. No use wasting it.
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Re: Man, I’m getting tired of this...! My new debate challe

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:49 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:It would be useful to understand what Ecmandu means when he says that "Morality is objective".

Which one of the following is it?

1) The belief that moral statements have truth value (i.e. that any given moral statement is either true or false)

2) The belief that what is morally right for one is necessarily morally right for everyone else

3) Both (1) and (2)

4) Something else

I don't think he knows what "objective" or "morality" (or many other relevant words) means so debating could be difficult.
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Re: Man, I’m getting tired of this...! My new debate challe

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:54 pm

I already said what objective means...

It’s true regardless of what anyone’s opinion is.

Not that complicated.

I also defined moral objectivity.

It’s right or wrong regardless of what anyone’s opinion is.

*sigh*

It’s right there in print.
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Re: Man, I’m getting tired of this...! My new debate challe

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:50 pm

Ecmandu -

I wont debate with you about the objectivity of morality - but - I will debate you on whether you can prove it.

    A - Ecmandu can prove that morality is objective.
    B - Ecmandu cannot prove that morality is objective.
And in case you can't figure it out - I will support B.
Member of The Coalition of Truth - member #1

              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just the same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --
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Re: Man, I’m getting tired of this...! My new debate challe

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:06 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:Ecmandu -

I wont debate with you about the objectivity of morality - but - I will debate you on whether you can prove it.

    A - Ecmandu can prove that morality is objective.
    B - Ecmandu cannot prove that morality is objective.
And in case you can't figure it out - I will support B.


Obsrvr... I’m just restating things in my debate intro.

Yes, it doesn’t matter what your opinion is....

Nobody wants their consent violated.

I even stated in that intro that because in some way, shape or form EVERYONE is having their consent violated that existence itself is immoral.

Again, as I also stated in that debate intro:

This means there is currently no good or bad; just better or worse.

Then I stated that objective morality as a goal is to make reality good (while in the meantime doing harm reduction)

I already wrote all of this.
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Re: Man, I’m getting tired of this...! My new debate challe

Postby Magnus Anderson » Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:13 pm

Observer's saying he wants to debate with you whether or not you can PROVE that morality is objective. I assume he agrees with you that morality is objective, so he can't debate that one.

Are you interested in that?
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Re: Man, I’m getting tired of this...! My new debate challe

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:41 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:Observer's saying he wants to debate with you whether or not you can PROVE that morality is objective. I assume he agrees with you that morality is objective, so he can't debate that one.

Are you interested in that?


Magnus, it’s an inferential / self evident proof.

I can say that the counting numbers increasing with the +1 algorithm include the entire well ordered set..,

And someone can say “well, you didn’t count all of them and you can’t, so how do you know it’s true?”

At a certain point, and I’m going to be crass here... that’s just being a shit.

Morality is objective: nobody wants their consent violated. It’s an axiomatic, self evident experiential and inferential proof... it’s also true by definition.
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Re: Man, I’m getting tired of this...! My new debate challe

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:45 pm

So I have won already.

I didn't think it would have lasted long anyway. :D
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              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just the same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --
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Re: Man, I’m getting tired of this...! My new debate challe

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:55 pm

And so since you cannot prove it - how were you expecting to win the debate against Avan-whatshisname?

    "But it's obvious! Self-evident! - See I win."
Member of The Coalition of Truth - member #1

              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just the same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --
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Re: Man, I’m getting tired of this...! My new debate challe

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:01 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:And so since you cannot prove it - how were you expecting to win the debate against Avan-whatshisname?

    "But it's obvious! Self-evident! - See I win."


You have no ‘victory’ here...

The proof is 4 pronged:

1.) self evident: (that tree is there). “Prove it”. Try to walk through it!!!

2.) inferential: I can calculate complete sets without having to actually count all members

3.) experiential: people don’t like bad things happening to them (For each person, what a bad thing is, is different)

4.) true by definition: see number three to understand: consent violation
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Re: Man, I’m getting tired of this...! My new debate challe

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:20 pm

Ecmandu wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:And so since you cannot prove it - how were you expecting to win the debate against Avan-whatshisname?

    "But it's obvious! Self-evident! - See I win."


You have no ‘victory’ here...

The proof is 4 pronged:

1.) self evident: (that tree is there). “Prove it”. Try to walk through it!!!

2.) inferential: I can calculate complete sets without having to actually count all members

3.) experiential: people don’t like bad things happening to them (For each person, what a bad thing is, is different)

4.) true by definition: see number three to understand: consent violation

If that was going to be your case - you would have lost on all 4 counts.
Member of The Coalition of Truth - member #1

              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just the same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --
obsrvr524
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Re: Man, I’m getting tired of this...! My new debate challe

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:26 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:And so since you cannot prove it - how were you expecting to win the debate against Avan-whatshisname?

    "But it's obvious! Self-evident! - See I win."


You have no ‘victory’ here...

The proof is 4 pronged:

1.) self evident: (that tree is there). “Prove it”. Try to walk through it!!!

2.) inferential: I can calculate complete sets without having to actually count all members

3.) experiential: people don’t like bad things happening to them (For each person, what a bad thing is, is different)

4.) true by definition: see number three to understand: consent violation

If that was going to be your case - you would have lost on all 4 counts.


To even HALF defeat those 4 arguments, you have to jump off a mile high cliff naked and survive.
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