Rap vs. Rock, lyrically.

[Xunzian]

And so the time has come for Carleas and Pavlovianmodel146 to examine the age old question: which music style is superior



Rap (as represented by Carleas)

or



Classic rock (as represented by Pavlovianmodel146)?

In keeping with the musical spirit of the endeavor, this will be done in lyrical style. Each party's opening argument will be done in verse, their rebuttal in Haiku, and their conclusions in freestyle poetry. The debate will be decided by Amor Fati, Oughtist, Mr. Shambles, Wonderer, and when the inevitable tie arises, the good people of ILP through a democratic vote. Good luck gentlemen!

The challenge can be found here with some history here.

The discussion can be found here.

[Carleas]

Sorry for the delay all, thanks for your patience and thanks for coming out. Best of luck to my opponent, may the better style of music be better presented. Ahem. . .

Freestyle, a sonnet in the style of Shakespeare, the O-est of Gs.

For all the sounds that seek to make us clap
Re'lize that only one is worth your time
Expected by the quick, the answer's rap
Endless enjoyment comes from rapid rhyme

Still some suppose that other styles compare
Too bad for them, more tickets left for us
Yes rap has clearly won, and all that fare's
Left broken like the many rhymes we bust

Excuse the few that to their axes cling
Because they need a bridge to catch their breath
Old age, I fear, is whence the shortness springs
Yet soon their solos will be purged by death

Exalt! our freedom comes in beats and rhymes
Expel the old, freestyle's with the times!

[PavlovianModel146]

It happens when 'The Eagles' fly,
When you get that, "Peaceful Easy Feeling;"
Then Tony and Dawn told us why,
We should all, "Knock Three Times on the Ceiling."

Then sometimes you get a bit hard,
And 'Journey,' beyond, "Wheel In The Sky;"
That's when you pull out a new card,
With, "'Bad Company' 'til the day I die."

Anything else will surely fall,
Other music you may simply rescind;
It's because rock broke down, 'The Wall',
Anything else is just, 'Dust In The Wind.'

Rap had its place as well as time,
You know it's not in eternal demand;
There's no reason to bust a rhyme,
When you have the man people call, "Slowhand."

Rap may be fly, it may be hot,
But the goal is to be meta-cool;
I don't know what all you have got,
But I've Bob Seger's, "Old Time Rock and Roll."

Take all music, rock is the pith,
I name hundreds of great timeless songs and;
What will you come back at me with,
Fresh Prince and "Parents Just Don't Understand?"

Rock and Roll will live forever,
Rap will eventually meet its end;
Classic rock songs will die never,
Because, "We Are The Champions, My Friend."
_______________________________________________________________________________

CITATIONS BY LINE:

1.) 'The Eagles' (Band Name)
2.) "Peaceful Easy Feeling," by The Eagles (Song Title)
3.) 'Tony and Dawn' is a shortened version of Tony Orlando and Dawn (See Citation Four)
4.) "Knock Three Times on the Ceiling," lyric from Tony Orlando and Dawn's song, "Knock Three Times."

5.) No citation needed
6a.) 'Journey' (Band Name) 6b.) "Wheel In The Sky," by Journey (Song Title)
7.) No citation needed
8a.) 'Bad Company' (Band Name) 8b.) "Bad Company 'Til the day I die," lyric from Bad Company's song, "Bad Company."

9.) No citation needed
10.) No citation needed
11.) "The Wall," by Kansas (Song title)
12.) "Dust in the Wind," by Kansas (Song title)

13.) No citation needed
14.) No citation needed
15.) No citation needed
16.) 'Slowhand," is a nickname of Rock N' Roll Hall of Fame Member and Classic Rocker Eric Clapton.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Clapton

17.) No citation needed
18.) No citation needed
19.) No citation needed
20a.) Bob Seger (Singer) 20b.) "Old Time Rock and Roll" by Bob Seger (Song Title)

21.) No citation needed
22.) No citation needed
23.) No citation needed
24a.) Will Smith is a rapper/actor who starred in a show called, "The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air."
24b.) "Parents Just Don't Understand," by Will Smith and DJ Jazzy Jeff (Song Title)

25.) No citation needed
26.) No citation needed
27.) No citation needed
28.) "We are the champions, my friend" from, "We are the Champions," by Queen (Song lyric)

[Carleas]

Classic rock is without time
We all know and love its many fruits
Thus the many citations. . .

No, that's unfair. Citations
Recall that the store of classic rock
Brims, dozens of treasures strong

But the number counted for
Classic rock, will be produced anew
each day by the rap machine.

In the spirit of Pascal,
What risk is there in loving hip-hop?
There is much risk in trash talk.

Gold teeth, chains, and rings, adorn
The princes of music, spoils of war.
Fear other accessories.

[PavlovianModel146]

Exalt! our freedom comes in beats and rhymes
Expel the old, freestyle's with the times!

"Freedom's just another word,
For nothin' left to lose, nothin and;
That's all that Bobby left me."

Nothin', in thirty years time,
That's what we'll remember of the rhymes;
'Bout the hoes and all the crimes.

Carleas now makes the claim,
That the total songs will be the same;
Sans regard for quality.

Sure rap songs may add up and,
There's a chance that they will surpass but;
The listeners will not last.

Just know whatever the year,
On the radio, you will still hear;
"One Bourbon, One Scotch, One Beer."

Lines 1-3: Song Lyric from Janis Joplin's "Me and Bobby McGee"

Line 15: Song Title from George Thorogood "One Bourbon, One Scotch, One Beer"

[Carleas]

Nothing,
Nothing,
Is more classic than the beat
Our hearts to the heavens,
The savanah to the street
The cosmos kick it and the creatures stomp their feet

And we,
Who express our dreams in poetry
Who name the colors to realize their beauty
For us, words are our reality

To speak is human, to lyricize divine
And to combine
The sacred fruit of human minds
With the mechanics
The clockwork of the universe in which we tic

To set our dreams to the rhythm and our rhymes by the clock
Is to make flight from the regular step of walk
and to beat the wings that fly the flock
And the orations of a parrot as compared with goose's squawk


And to call a music by a synonym for 'talk'
Is to understate its nature, underprice its stock

Check the figures, see who's sinking like a rock.

[PavlovianModel146]

Sales figures are meaningless you see,
It just means one of your playas is sacrificin' quality;
To get all of the fools to listen to his rhymes,
So that he can be rollin' in some mothafuckin' dimes.

The dude writes a rhyme and claims he's gonna gut her,
Then after he's done, he orders a drink from his mothafuckin' butler;
The people that listen to this shit know nothin' bout the streets,
So here comes a rhyme 'bout the mothafuckas listenin' to rappers' beats:

Look at me, mothafucka', pretendin' to be an urban black,
How you gonna' roll up in my cul-de-sac?
I roll up in my Corvette and I don't give a fuck,
I order a straight coffee at the mothafuckin' Starbuck'.

I talk all this shit 'bout takin' a mothafuckin' stance,
But if a nigga' actually pulled a gun, I'd prolly shit my pants;
I talk mo' shit 'bout all these low-class bitches,
When, in reality, I was born with mothafuckin' riches!

Wannabe gangsta, gangsta,
Tryin' to be a playa'
I don't wanna be a hate-a,
But, I gotta say-ah,
It's fuckin' lame-a.

I run my mouth, 'bout how I stole this 'Vette,
But my Daddy actually bought it and he travel by jet,
I claim that I stole from every mothafucka I see,
But the fact is, my parents gave me my mo-nee.

I talk all this shit 'bout doin' crime and not gettin' caught,
But if I went to the streets, I'd prolly get shot;
I talk shit 'bout dealin' with all this strife,
Cuz I bought a shirt 3 size too big and claim I'm livin' thug-life.

Wannabe gangsta, gangsta,
Tryin' to be a playa'
I don't wanna be a hate-a,
But, I gotta say-ah,
It's fuckin' lame-a.

I talk about keepin' it real,
Givin' all da' honies a feel;
And how much I steal,

But when I'm at home,
Noone else all alone,

I be listenin' to Seal.

I don't want to be misconstrued,
Nor do I want to seem rude,
I wasn't talking specifically about Carleas,
Because he's my dude.

The point I'm trying to make,
with which I want to close this deal;
Is the majority of rap is fake,
And classic rock songs are fuckin' real.

[Mr Shambles]

I've read it all. Letting it sink in and collecting my thoughts. I haven't decided yet one way or the other. Plus, I'm on vacation right now. I'll be home tomorrow, expect the leaden weight of my supreme judgment to descend upon you at that time.

~Shimmy Shammy

[amor fati]

My appropriately lax grading system is as follows, in order:

Freestyle – Carleas

It’s okay, I guess, the spellage of ‘freestyle’ was a nice effort, but I’ll be honest and say I found it rather bland – perhaps too much rhyme, and too little rhythm? I don’t know, it just doesn’t seem to flow or roll off the tongue very easily, and repeats its rhymes.

But I’ll also say, honestly, that I am a lover of music, and while I love a moving beat as much as anyone, rap happens to be one of my least favorite musical genres (sans a small selection of gems), especially within the ‘electronic’ category, and classic rock happens to be an old friend of mine – by all that I mean to say I could be bias, but I’m also rather neutral (at best) about its style, so take it for what you will.

C+
-

It happens when ‘The Eagles’ fly – Pav

first stanza – solid
second – solid with blemishes
third- solid
fourth-solid
fifth- decent, but <3 Bob Seger
sixth- decent
seventh- could’ve done better with very little, but we’ll call it acceptable.

Overall: B
-

Classic rock is without time – Carleas

This one was much better, in my opinion – better flow, clearly more off the cuff and natural
I feel no need to break this one down stanza by stanza.
I’ll give this one a

B.
-

Freedom's just another word – Pav

I like this one about as much as Carleas’ Freestyle - I don’t think I like forced rhymes, or something
And overall I’m just not a fan of the style or content

minus the plus which Carleas received for the spelling its title with the column formed by the first letter of every sentence, or whatever, this one earns a

C.
-

Nothing, Nothing – Carleas

Best one yet, and this one challenges my distaste for rhymes, as they seem much more natural here. There were only a few places I thought were hang ups, but all in all this one was pretty good, and as I said, the best so far.

B+
-

Sales Figures – Pav
Haha, this is fantastic – you both show an impassioned improvement at the very end, right when it becomes personal (thus the face-saving disclaimer tacked on the end there )

This one has an attitude about it, an air of authenticity and rawness (minus the end, that was weak) – still I do think this tops the all the rest on that account.

A-

[amor fati]

Carleas – C+, B, B+
2.5 + 3.0 + 3.5 = 9/12

Pav— B, C, A-
3.0 + 2.0 + 3.75 = 8.75
__
A = 4.0
A- = 3.75
B+ = 3.5
B = 3.0
C+ = 2.5
C = 2.0
C- = 1.5
D = 1.0
D- = 0.5
E = 0.00000FUCKING0BIT

[amor fati]

stoner error made in calculating grades, which pav honorably spotted and reported to his own demotion

thank you pav, corrections made

[Oughtist]

FYI: ...sick & run down... Will be back with greater thoughts asap.

[Wonderer]

round 1:


Pav almost had it with his ending line, i'm a fan of queen...

And the style chosen was interesting and memorable. I visualized some 80's comedian reading it slowly and articulately on the references (though i did not get all the references)

On the other hand Carleas not only successfully wrote a Shakespearean sonnet, and on top of that he put a message in bold, which adds to the overall complexity.

Lyrically Carleas is a close win over Pavlovianmodel146 at 30-29 respectively in round 1 (judged out of 30)

Pavlovialmodel146 argues that classic rock is timeless and has variety.

Carleas argues that rap is with the times, but does also discredit other genres and brings up the notion of expelling the old. He effectively argues that rap is good and is the current winner.

However i don't think this effectively counters the argument of timelessness.

Quasi-logically Pavlovialmodel146 is a close win over Carleas at 30-29 respectively

Round 2

I enjoyed Carleas's Haikus, though i'm not used to reading 7-9-7.

Carleas brought the argument up a notch and simultaneously belittled the gearth of Classic Rock, invoked pascal which i really liked, and posited that rap will overtake classic rock in terms of classics and volume many fold.

Pavlovianmodel146 attacks the freedom of rap. Pav also posits that Rap will die out in 30 years or so, and that we will look back laughingly. He argues that rap will not maintain listeners with the old classics.

Lyrically you were both on par, but I would have liked to see more depth in the Haiku's

I liked

"Carleas now makes the claim,
That the total songs will be the same;
Sans regard for quality."

and

"In the spirit of Pascal,
What risk is there in loving hip-hop?
There is much risk in trash talk."

Lyrically, It's a tie at 29-29

Both poets touched on the opponents lyrics from round 1. While Pav commented on the freedom in rap, and also that the quality is lacking even if the numbers exist, Carleas poked fun of Pavlovian's many citations, which i suspect was just for good measure. aswell as adding a rebuke to the timeless argument by asserting raps own timelessness, and teh fact that there could be more timeless rap songs classic rock.

I feel that while Pavlovian does dress several aspects of rap such as the hoes and crime aspect, and just the general quality of rap, Carleas effectively rebukes this with his own aggrandizement of rap and puts it over the top with a direct rebuke involving not loving rap by trash talking which was cleverly related to the topic within a haiku.

Quasi-logically Carleas beats out Pavlovianmodel146 with a close 30-29 victory.

Round 3

Carleas, your technique, content and rhyming are all of high quality, the delivery could be a bit smoother, but then again i could be interpreting it wrong.

Your use of metaphors was excellent and helped to make points.

Pavlovianmodel146, well done, you had my attention at "the dude writes a rhyme and claims he's gonna gut her" which i believe is in reference to Necro, whom i have promoted on this site.

And you did exactly what i enjoy at the same time, which is just straight slander. You made a lyrical impression.

But to Carleas, perhaps if i heard it instead of just reading it i would feel differently, but i'm just sort of desensitized when it comes to,... shall we say... non offensive raps.

Immortal technique is a rapper you might enjoy Carleas, he is sort of your style. For such a small sample it's hard to see what you can do. But you have the lyrical talent and i think you probably have rigid opinions deep down just waiting to be violently asserted...

Lyrically Pavlovian takes it with a score of 30-29

Quasi-logically i cannot begin to score this in terms of arguments wagered. If i had to i would probably rule in favor of Carleas just because what pav wrote is mostly slander (not a bad thing), and i also liked the use of poetic devices and flow. (in meaningful ways)

In any case i'm rendering it:

Quasi-logically: a tie, at 30-30.

results: it's a tie

[Oughtist]

Ok, I must admit.

I am a post 'n' goer.

This is a post 'n' go.

Haven't read Wonderer yet, except to see it was a tie.

Read Amor.

Shambles. Hope you enjoyed Montreal. I was there for the Liberal leadership convention a couple of years ago. I was supporting Gerard Kennedy.

So, I've not yet come to a decision, but here's one of my criteria:

Ratio of "a" to "the" per total word count.

It will not be the determining factor, but it will be the determining factor.

There may be other criteria.

I have yet to decide. Neither have I counted the as.

[Oughtist]

Congratulations to both wordsmiths. Trust that my judgement is purely arbitrary, though not without rationale. I judge that whomever most pronounces the use of a over the shall win my decision.

Quotes, citations, and Proper Names (e.g. titles) not counted.


.............Words.......The........A..............Ratio

Carleas
Verse......114.........8, 5.........1, 1..........070175/.008772; .043860/.008772
Haiku......87..........6, 2.........0, 0..........068966/0; .022990/0
Freestyle..148.........18, 13......4, 4..........121622/.027027; .087838/.027027

Pav
Verse......202.........(10) 4, 3.....3, 2..........044554/.014851; .014851/.009901
Haiku......85..........9, 2..........1, 1...........105882/.011765; .023529/.011765
Freestyle..375.........10, 7........14+, 14.......026667/.03733; .018667/.037333


Explanation:

Word count column - self evident

The column
- first number = # of thes in poem (adjusted in Pav's case for Verse due to use of proper titles)
- second number = # of definitely debatable usages (this may require further explanation)

A column
same idea (note: 14+ count for Pav, due to nebulous use of a, e.g. hate-a)

Ratio column
- first set = # of thes per word versus # of as per word
high the ratio is bad; high a ratio is good
- second set = # of debatable thes/as per word count
same valuation



Results:

Basic Ratio:
Verse: P/P (e.g.: P=.044554, wins the (lowest ratio); P = .014851, wins a (highest ratio))
Haiku: C/P
Freestyle: P/P ..............count goes to Pav

Adjusted Ratio:
Verse: P/P
Haiku: P/P
Freestyle: P/P ...........count goes to Pav

Pav wins on both counts. So says me. Please feel free to disagree. I may well be wrong on many other counts.

[Mr Shambles]

Okay, so Carleas has pointed out to me via PM that my decision is not in the thread, however I know for a fact that I typed it all out weeks ago. Not only that, but I swear I went back and read my own post in the thread after posting it. More than once even. I was the second of the judges to post, and then went back and saw my post there each time a new person posted to the thread (I have it monitored with email notices). Either I'm completely insane or my post was deleted.

Given that this was weeks ago, I can't possibly recreate the post. To be honest my heart isn't in it right now. I'll be back to ILP sooner rather than later, but I haven't had enough energy for my own writing of late, and much less so for public forum.

Carleas was the winner in my estimation. I understand you'd all like more info and reasoning than that. It was there. I swear it was. If that's not good enough then I need to resign as judge. Sorry if I've disappointed you all.

[PavlovianModel146]

That works for me, a decision is a decision with or without specific reasoning.

Congratulations, Carleas!!!

By a vote of 2-1-1, you have shown that Rap is the superior of the two!

That was fun as hell, we'll have to do something like this again sometime!