I would like to start off by addressing a point that Loren646 made regarding a Freudian Slip. Loren646 stated that I referred to High School as a, "laughing," pad for getting into college. If Loren646 had properly read the content of my first post she would see that my mistake was in typing, "launghing pad," not, "laughing," that is not a Freudian slip, that would be known as a typing error.
Loren646 rebutted with a plethora of assumptions and statements completely unrelated to the actual curriculum that I described in my thesis. In addition to that Loren646 both insulted and disrespected the State of Ohio and by extension, disrespected me. I use the term disrespected because Loren646 referred to Ohio as a, "Middle of nowhere," state which I proved o be blatantly untrue. To make a truthful and accurate statement that is based in fact may often be harsh, but is not disrespectful depending on the tone of that statement, however, to dismiss an entire state because of a perceived and inaccurate notion is disrespectful.
Loren646 has posted a very strong conclusion and final rebuttal that serves to hammer Loren646's point home. At the same time, though, the rebuttal tends to call for assumption in many aspects and takes many of the statements that I have previously made out of context.
Loren646's previous statements have also been somewhat irrelevant to my curriculum as she has cited examples concerning the State of Ohio as a whole, many of which are completely immaterial to the Buckeye Local High School in conjunction with the Jefferson County Joint Vocational School and the curriculum thereof. In addition to that, Loren646 inaccurately refers to Massachusettes and New Jersey as states, "bigger," than Ohio and asks me why I do not use those states as an example. She later follows this by using the education system of the State of Kentucky as one of her examples.
I intend to conclude by first acknowledging and defending my position against my opponents rebuttals. In so doing, I will further expand upon the points that I have made regarding my ideal curriculum as well as call into question specific aspects of Loren646's viewpoints with which I disagree.
I never stated that college itself was useless only that many of the required courses they teach are useless. Just because universities currently require something does not in fact make the course practical and useful. Just because the school system is a certain way does not mean we can not change it.
You are right in that you never did state that college itself is useless, however you are wrong for implying that I said or insinuated any such statement on your part because I did no such thing. I am well-aware that you called into question the entrance requirements of colleges and universities and not the existence of colleges and universities in general.
I also agree that not every course taught by a college or university is practical and useful, however that is not what we are here to debate, we are here to debate High School curriculum.
Finally, I never argued that the school system cannot be changed. I gave my example regarding Buckeye Local High School in conjunction with the Jefferson County JVS and stated that the system I gave (except for increasing the Health and Physical Education requirements) should not be changed, I did not say it cannot be changed.
And if we went by your standards that students should take courses to get into college then we should require all students to take very advanced courses like Calculus and Physics. This would help them get them into college.
Those are not my standards. My standards are that we should
offer not require courses that will assist a student in getting accepted into a college or a university. While I do agree that Calculus and Physics can often assist a student in being admitted into a college or university, not all students should take those classes.
For example, a student that does not intend to go to college would have little use for those classes, therefore, that student should only take those classes if that student wants to. Another example is a student that intends to go to a college or university that does not cite Calculus or Physics as an entrance requirement, in which case, that student should only take such classes if that students desires to do so.
My standards are simply that courses that assist students that wish to go to colleges or universities (in general) or to a specific college or university should be offered, not required. My standards are also that a High School should cater to students that wish to further their education after High School Graduation.
Simply put, a High School that does not at least
offer courses that can lead to college admission is not going to serve to benefit the most students as many (more than half) of all High School students at least consider going to college.
Yet, in your position, you you are arguing that we require them to take courses that are useless and moreover which are not enough to help them get into good universities
Which do you want?
1. Force them to get into a good university by making them take the most advanced courses currently available
or
2. Force them just to take the some of these useless courses that colleges require but not enough to get into a good university.
It seems that what you are trying to do here is take an opinion regarding a specific point in my argument and apply it to my argument as a whole. Of course, you have shown a history of doing this by using the entire State of Ohio's academic record to discredit one specific High School in Ohio.
First of all, I have never explicitly or implicitly stated that I want any group of students or individual student to be required to take advanced level classes. My argument is simply that provided the college entracnce requirements do not change (as they likely won't) that the High Schools continue to
offer advanced level classes in order to give its students the opportunity to go to college.
That is why I cited the Jefferson County Joint Vocational School. If you have an individual that exhibits a strength in welding, is interested in welding and intends not to go to college but rather to go straight into the job force after graduation, then that individual can go to the JVS, take welding, graduate High School and also obtain job pertinent licenses and certificates in the course of so doing. I would not suggest that this individual be forced to take any advanced level math classes, and in my ideal educational curriculum, the individual is not forced to do so.
The simple fact is that not all High School students desire to go to college, and not all of them have the intellectual capability to do so. Some go to a traditional four-year college or university immediately, some go to a two-year or Community College, some go directly into the work force and some graduate and go to a trade school. My suggestion is simply that the required courseload of High Schools be such that an individual can gain knowledge that at the very least affects an individual's day-to-day life. I also argue that at the same time, the High Schools should continue to
offer, on a strictly optional basis, as Buckeye Local High School does, advanced level classes that are indexed to college entrance requirements.
By the way, some colleges have lower requirements than others, it is for that reason that the High School not force any students to take specific upper-level classes. A student can take whatever classes meet the entrance requirements to the specific college (s) to which he or she will be applying.
In other words, my education curriculum serves the most possible people. The education curriculum cited by my opponent would not serve the most people. My opponent's education curriculum would result in a significant decrease of upper-level classes even being
offered, and as a result, students would not necessarily be able to take the classes they need for admission into the college they desire.
You've been stating numerous times in your argument that a student only needs Algebra 1 or some other course to graduate. And you only want to require them the minimum. Yet your requirements are NOT enough to get into a top university. So why would you require them to make only a half-assed attempt to get into college? One either goes to college or they do not. There is no half way here. So why are you requiring half-assed requirements that do not help them get into a good university?
The tables seem to have turned, in this debate. Now, am I to believe that you are the one who is arguing that classes be offered that are indexed to the entrance requirements of colleges and universities?
I am only requiring a courseload that is less than what the average college entrance requirements are because not every student intends to, or indeed is intellectually able to, go to college. There is no good reason for my system to force a mediocre student into taking Algebra II, if that student does not intend to go to college.
With my system, students have the ability to dictate their futures for themselves, the student chooses how high he or she will aim. The student chooses whether he or she plans to pursue college by meeting entrance requirements, and if so, the student chooses what colleges' or universities' requirements he or she wants to meet. The student chooses whether he or she would like to learn a trade and obtain licenses and certifications to proceed with greater ease into the workforce from High School.
In my system, a student can choose to learn only the basics of consumer math while becoming a certified and licensed cosmotologist, or a student has the opportunity to take the necessary courseload required to meet the entrance requirements of Ivy-League schools.
My system gives students the power to decide what is best for them, your system dictates to them what is best for them.
And if you want to go ahead and assume things and make up situations. We'll go with the counter example. Let's assume colleges did not require students to take these courses to get into the university. Would you then say change the high school system so they wouldn't have to take these courses? If so, you are finally coming to terms with my position.
First of all, you previously in your conclusion argued that I am incorrect for not recommending that all students take classes indexed to college entrance requirements, now you are stating that they already have to take such courses, which by the way, you earlier said they do not.
Anyway, in my model, the students already do not have to take a course load indexed to the average entrance requirements of a college or university.
I would not say any such thing. I believe that the Ivy-League schools would continue to maintain a model for entrance requirements greater than that of the average college or university, since this is the case it would be best if the High Schools continue to offer courses that give students the ability to meet the entrance requirements of Ivy-League schools if the students should choose to do so.
By the way, what assumptions have I made and what situations have I made up? Buckeye Local High School is a real High School with a real curriculum with which I have provided you, not a figment of my imagination.
Are we debating whether Paris is the capital city of France again? You are trying to argue against a fact. Your conclusion no matter how reasonable you think it sounds is very incorrect. You are trying to argue against the law of supply and demand. Good luck with that..
I understand the law of supply and demand. There is no shortage of colleges and universities in the United States of America or abroad. Additionally, colleges and universities by softening entrance requirements (provided all of them took such action) would collectively give more students the opportunity to go to college, and as a result, make more money.
Even though it is irrelevant to this topic I would also like to state that colleges and universities do not
all exist solely for the purpose of making money, as my opponent seems to believe. Many colleges and universities are non-profit public colleges and universities who receive a substantial portion of their funding from states and from the national government.
I would also like to add that Loren646 originally elected to bring up the amount of money made by colleges and universities which is in no way relevant to the topic of my specific model for a High School curriculum.
By softening entrance requirements the schools actually make less money. Compare a community college with really low requirements to a top university with very strict requirements. Which one is making more money? There are only a finite amount of kids in any given year who are going to go to college. But each university can control how many students they admit. By making it tougher and allowing fewer students in they actually make more money by charging more. Just take a look at the difference from tier 1 to tier 4 in usnews.
This whole line of discussion is completely irrelevant to the point of this debate, yet I will answer my opponent's statement.
Top universities make more money because of a concept commonly referred to as, "exclusivity," there will very rarely be a shortage of students who desire to go to Harvard, Yale or Princeton, just to name a few. It is comparable to shoe brands, compare Nike with a generic shoe brand. Nikes are commonly accepted to be high-quality shoes which are a symbol of wealth and prestige, it is for that reason that many people desire to own Nikes and wear them proudly. Contrastly, the generic shoes which may cost as low as 20% the cost of a pair of Nikes are not a specifically demanded item, but the company producing the shoes will make more money if they are able to sell more shoes.
In much the same way, Yale will still be Yale regardless of what the average college entrance requirements are. Yale will still have entrance requirements that are significantly more difficult to obtain than the average college or university and it will still be a sought after institution of academia for more students than it can possibly hold. Contrastly, a school like West Virginia Northern Community College is not specifically sought after on a nationwide basis, it is not considered amongst the elite. However, the more students West Virginia Community College admits, the more money West Virginia Northern Community College will make.
What the universities are doing is making something rare so they could inflate the prices just like many corporations. By making something rare the price can be inflated for more of a profit – some companies or groups like De Beers or OPEC take it to the extreme where it would be illegal if they did in the U.S. Both these groups cut the supply to artificially increase their profit.
De Beers and OPEC do not sell their goods in the U.S., where have I been?
The universities such as Yale and Princeton are not cutting their supply to increase profit, a school can only physically maintain a certain amount of students. In addition to that, the size of classes is a huge factor when many students are determining where they wish to go to college, therefore, it is not to a school's benefit (in all cases) to increase class size.
Yale, Princeton, Harvard and others are not rare because they intentionally made themselves rare. They are rare because they have a tradition of excellence, they have a tradition where students that go to those colleges succeed financially after they graduate and they are rare also because they are among America's most respected and oldest institutions. They are rare because by their own merits, they have created an atmosphere that is highly sought after and considered an honor to be a part of. They are rare because they accept only the best of the best and offer extremely high-level classes which you so arduously oppose, that is why they are rare, they just happen to make money in the process.
Now let's look at another aspect why if they made it easier to get in they would make less money. Why do people go to universities in the first place? Most go to get a good job. A good company will only select universities that are difficult to get into because then it gives them more of an assurance that the student is hardworking and intelligent. So what does a university do? They make it so the requirements are higher which attracts the top companies and thus they can charge more to their students.
I do not understand why we are debating the irrelevant topic of whether or not colleges should make their entrance requirements softer. Furthermore, I do not understand why you have switched your position from colleges making their requirements softer because their requirements entail the taking of unnecessary classes to insisting that entrance requirements should remain the same because it assists the colleges in making money.
Anyway, not all colleges have the same entrance requirements. The entrance requirements posted on my link in my thesis related to the average entrance requirements for a college or a university. Some colleges have stiffer requirements, some colleges have softer requirements which is why a student should take courses appropriate for the admission requirements of the college that he or she wishes to attend. Once again, my model for the High School education system makes that possible.
[/quote]
It should be clear to you now that universities are in it for the profit and not necessarily always in it for the best interest of the student. So again we should not use them as the best indicator of what we should teach our children.[/quote]
Non-profit universities by definition are not in it for the profit. You are also assuming that it is not possible to do what is best for the student simultaneous with making a profit which is assumption, incorrect assumption at that.
“Ultimately the [usefulness] of upper-level classes... are [for]...college” That's the ultimate point? Should we not base merits on a class whether or not the actual material is useful? That would seem like the wise decision.
Excellent, now instead of taking my statements out of context you have decided to take my individual words out of context. I refuse to dignify this paragraph with any further repsonse.
Obviously this is the system in place right now. Again, it doesn't mean it's correct. For example, society deemed slavery was okay a few hundred years ago. Did that make it correct? Nope.
My system is not in place right now. It is at Buckeye Local High School in conjunction with the Jefferson County Joint Vocational school, specifically, but not every school operates under my system.
I believe that comparing my model for the education system to slavery is a little extreme. Especially when you consider the fact that my education system gives students the opportunity to pursue whichever life path they so choose when coming out of High School. I do not believe that many of the Confederate slave masters went to their slaves and asked, "Hey, would you prefer to pick cotton or would you rather harvest the corn, or if you want, you can learn to read so that you can become a teacher for the children?"
So you are starting to agree with me, already, excellent. But be careful with your words as I never said they should be softened. We should still demand a lot of our students but with usefulness in mind.
No, the further this debate has progressed the less I find myself agreeing with you. All that my statement means is that High Schools are wise to offer a variety of courses that will get their students into college. Whether or not the college entrance requirements are useful I stated is irrelevant because we are not here to debate what the college entrance requirements should or should not be. My statement is only that High Schools should give their students the opportunity to get into whatever college or university that they choose to attend, eliminating upper-level math or science courses would not satisfy that goal in any way.
Actually it's very relevant because you say the only reason to not change the high school requirement is because of colleges and universities. We could obviously just change both requirements at the same time.
I am very interested in hearing how this could be done, it's a shame that this debate cannot be extended. First of all, the private colleges can make their entrance requirements whatever they want their entrance requirements to be and no agency can change that. Secondly, the collective Boards of Education on all levels for High School do not operate directly with colleges, and for the most part, are not managed or in any way linked to the agencies that determine what entrance criteria should be for each individual college.
The only way that both requirements could arbitrarily be changed simultaneously is if the United States Government decided to declare eminent domain on every college and university in the United States of America, (including the private ones) further decide that all of these individual entities are to be managed by the Federal government and to act as one and then decide to change the entrance requirements of the colleges. At the same time, the Federal government would have to declare that the public education system (typically micro-managed by states and counties) is completely under their control and will operate in accordance to and offer a curriculum that is indexed to college entrance criteria.
I will now say to you, "Good luck with that."
Knowing geometry will not help individuals who work at levels where they are living paycheck-to-paycheck, I agree with my opponent regarding that point.
Coming to the light side, I see.
No, I am not coming to your light. My educational system model does not require geometry to graduate, I am by no means agreeing with your side, here, that statement only serves to defend my model for the education system. It may be mute, at this point, but I would also like to mention that the statement was taken out of context.
By your logic here why don't we require them to take a higher level course because that would lead to degree from a better university and more pay? (I'm just pointing out the illogicalness of your point here)
The point is not illogical. We do not require students to take higher level courses in my model because not all students intend to go to college, nor are all students capable of going to college. Once again, in my model the student decides what he or she is capable of and what path he or she wants to pave for his or her life.
In your model, what a student will or will not take in High School is still dictated to them. For instance, "The equivalent of five or six years of English," I can assure you that not everything learned in this classes will be applicable in day-to-day life. An individual can become literate with far less formal English study than what your model prescribes. I would ask you, if an individual can compose an intelligible and literate sentence and read at a respectable level, than what is the point of being able to define a past participle?
So formal, especially when asking everyone to observe your mistake. Nowhere above does it mention credit, loans, or even borrowing Yet you say these math classes stress it.
I call for speculation here, but I imagine that credit, loans and borrowing would be covered in consumer mathematics, after all, those are the kind of things a consumer would need to know about. By the way, budgeting is covered in Math 10, budgeting is inclusive to credit, loans and borrowing, is it not?
So you agree the material they teach are things that are not useful to students?
Wrong. I agree that it is useful for the purpose of meeting college entrance requirements.
*slams head against a rock* you did not conclusively prove it to any degree (and again even if you were correct, which you are not, your conclusion can not come from the premises you made) just because some students can pass the bare minimum math requirements in high school does not mean all students fit this model.
I agree that not all students can pass the bare minimum math requirements in my model, even though the bare minimum math requirements in my model do not require Algebra I, which you have not conclusively disproved. I have, however, conclusively proven it because Algebra I would be listed as a required class which it is not.
Anyway, the model serves the most students, in my opinion, I never insinuated that it serves, "all," of them. Besides, if all students could pass the bare minimum math requirements, the graduation rate would be 100% and as such, graduating high school would mean absolutely nothing.
I don't see why you would keep arguing this when I have proven that it may be required of some. However, you keep wanting to argue this point and put it in writing and making it obviously blatant to our readers that you are outright wrong on another fact. Not only do thousands of schools around the country require and force algebra 2 on some students but the ENTIRE state of Michigan requires Algebra II. Couldn't you have done a simple google search and save yourself the embarrassment of trying to go against facts?
It would be required of some. It would be required by those who wish to meet the average entrance requirements of colleges and universities, but it is not a class that the High School itself requires you to take.
I would make it known to the judges, spectators and especially to my opponent that the requirements of thousands of schools around the country individually or in combination with the requirements of the ENTIRE state of Michigan have exactly nothing to do with the requirements of Buckeye Local High School in conjunction with the Jefferson County Joint Vocational School located in the State of Ohio.
I am not going against facts. I did not argue in any way what Michigan and, "thousands of schools around the country," do or do not require. I argued what Buckeye Local High School does or does not require, it is you who are going against facts.
“The Michigan Merit Curriculum requires that while in high school a student complete four credits of math (including algebra I, geometry and algebra II, or an integrated sequence of this content, and also a fourth year of mathematics taken in the senior year of high school) “(2) And to personally add insult to injury even the high school you mention will require ALL students to complete Algebra II soon (3).
I suppose it is a little late, but maybe I should let you know that your objective should be to discredit the curriculum of Buckeye Local High School located in Jefferson County, Ohio, anything Michigan does is unrelated and irrelevant.
interesting... let's actually find ohio on a map...
I give my opponent statistical facts regarding the State of Ohio, my opponent continues to disrespect my State of Ohio and disrespect me by extension. The irony here is that Loren646 accuses me of completely disregarding facts.
Actually, since I stated my post and my position first you are by definition coming to an agreement on my position that we should not teach a futile class. But nice try though.
I did not say foreign language should not be
taught, what I said was foreign language should not be required. I also did not make any statement whatsoever describing foreign language as, "futile," or any word closely resembling futile.
Again, you have failed to supply how algebra and geometry are sufficient to every day life. I'll wait.
Loren, let's say that my checking account balance was $1,302.64 on December 17th, and between December 17th and today I wrote four checks. I was able to call my bank to obtain my current checking account balance, but I did not originally write down how much the third check was for and that is not on the bank's automated system. Although, I know the value of the first, second and fourth checks that I wrote. The problem is, I need to know how much that specific check was for because it was a purchase that I made for someone else and that person needs to reimburse me and I am going to see this person today (A Sunday) so the bank is closed. I do know that my new balance after writing these four checks is $373.24
Value of Check 1: $321.82
Value of Check 2: $172.12
Value of Ckeck 3: x (Unknown)
Value of Check 4: $298.76
I could determine how much the check was worth with the following algebraic formula:
$1302.64 - ($321.82 + $172.12 + 298.76 + x) = $373.24
Which breaks down to:
$1302.64 - ($792.70 + x)= $373.24
Which is further reduced to:
$1302.64 -$792.70 - x= $373.24
Further:
$509.94 - x =$373.24
Subtract $509.94 from both sides and:
- x = - $136.70
Divide out the negative behind x and
x = $136.70
Hence, $136.70 is the value of the check.
Here is a use for geometry:
I am going to Lowe's to purchase some carpet because I plan to carpet a dining room. Carpet is sold by the square foot. If I do not know how to compute square footage I can very easily buy either too much or not enough carpet.
Where is the usefulness of this particular topic that is taught in algebra? And why did you blatantly ignore the geometry question as well?
What difference does it make, I have already proven that Algebra I is not necessary to graduate, nor is geometry.
You are agreeing with me that they should not be teaching useless classes. However, they do teach a few – as I've already posted out.
Here is my logic as simply as I can put it:
People that go to college and graduate have been statistically proven to generally make more money than people that do not go to college. Most colleges and universities have entrance requirements which are related to classes taken in High School. These High Schools offer the classes to help their students get accepted into colleges, hence, the classes are useful because graduating college (which first requires acceptance into a college) is useful.
Of course. You can always agree with my position in this debate. It is never to late to concede.
A very wise man once told me that the delivery of sarcasm is all about form. Don't worry, you'll get better with practice. Oh yes, and your statement above also takes my statement out of context where I stated that I agree with you regarding one specific aspect of your argument.
Lol, I had a cartoon about the irony of it. They force several long years of useless courses into students yet a course that has so much impact in our lives that could reduce the risk of life threatening diseases like diabetes and heart disease is reduced to a requirement of only 9 weeks.
I agree with you here, I believe I may have said as much already. I remember where I said that, in my thesis, when I stated that the lack of health and physical education requirements was the only aspect of Buckeye Local's system with which I disagree.
It's (Joint Vocational School) an alternative now too. It's an alternate choice for an individual.
As is going to college as opposed to going straight into the job force, or vice-versa, depending on how you look at it.
Do you want my bank statement and social security number as well? .
No, I requested your transcript from Buckeye Local High School because you give the impression that you know about what specific items are addressed in their classes.
Cartoons make it more entertaining. I took the time out to search for them to make the text more enjoyable to read. They are my gifts to the readers for taking their precious time in helping in this matter.
You should send them Christmas cards instead. I took out the time to search for actual facts and figures relevant to our topic for the readers for taking their precious time in helping in this matter.
I would like to remind the readers and judges that it is my opponent, Pavlovianmodel146, who is gone completely off tangent in this debate. This opponent outright challenged me and my position. But in fact my opponent has not even replied to my original post above nor even offered to counter my original position. Whether pavlovianmodel146 believe Buckeye is the perfect example for all schools is irrelevant. As an opponent who specifically challenged me with the intention to disprove my belief and my educational system pavlovianmodel146 has not done so in any real manner (poster did not even reply and give counterarguments to my original post).
I have both replied to my opponent's original post and countered my opponent's original position. My opponent probably did not notice because I did not use any cartoons, make nearly as many assumptions nor did the majority of my statements ring of sarcasm. In addition, at no point did I blatantly and flagrantly disrespect my opponent or where my opponent comes from. It can clearly be seen in my opening post in the conclusion where I gave my arguments against my opponents position and in subsequent posts defended same.
The basis of my argument is the fact that High Schools offer the courses that they offer to get students into college by offering courses relevant to college entrance guidelines. Furthermore, I argued that Buckeye Local High School has a viable educational system because it caters both to students who plan to go to college and students who will enter directly into the workforce without forcing any student to take a, "useless," class.
The students have the choice and take what classes they wish.
My position from the start has been we should not teach a class if it is useless to almost the entire general population and we should be teaching classes that are relevant to them instead.
Getting into college is not, "Useless to almost the entire general population," the schools teach classes that are generally required in college entrance criteria. There is no need to take the time to find an exact number, but I imagine that the number of colleges that will admit a student who only has one Math credit and one Science credit (as my opponent suggests High Schools should mandate) is dreadfully low.
And from that – pavlovianmodel146's challenge to me was “I argue that such is not the case [with the current system]. My position is that we should take classes regarding specific subjects and complete certain academic tasks because it helps us determine what careers we would like to pursue and where our interests are. I further argue that it helps make us more well-rounded individuals and increases our open-mindedness.”
I can promise the judges that if they peruse this debate thread with the utmost scrutiny that they will not find this statement except for as quoted by my opponent. That statement was made by me in an entirely different thread, is in no way relevant to this specific debate or my thesis for this debate and should be completely disregarded.
By irrelevantly mentioning Buckeye and how it meets college demands my opponent has not proven against my case or even the basics of providing arguments for their own case.
My mention of Buckeye Local High School is not irrelevant because Buckeye Local High School is my educational model as shown in my thesis! Does my opponent suggest that the very fact that I have an educational model is irrelevant?
Buckeye Local High School in conjunction with the Jefferson County Joint Vocational School is my case and my opponent has done nearly nothing to argue against it, as a result, I have not been put in a position where I have had to argue for it.
I have had to argue for the State of Ohio.
I have had to argue population size.
I have had to argue whether or not colleges are in it just for the money.
I have had to argue regarding the curriculum of other states.
I have had to argue what college entrance requirements should or should not be.
But, I have been very rarely put into a position where I had to argue in favor of my curriculum.
No where in my opponent's arguments has this individual stated and protected their school structure on “how classes determine career choice or interests.” Nor has my opponent proven the fact that these classes provide these individuals to be more well-rounded or increase their open mindedness (as stated by my opponent's challenge).
That quote used by my opponent was taken from another thread completely unrelated to this debate. That quote cannot be found anywhere in this debate forum and should be disregarded as not relevant to this debate or part of this debate.
Not once has my opponent replied to my original post nor stance. Instead this poster has decided to ignore my original position, ignore their position that they challenged me on and switched to an extremely meaningless position of “teach in high school cause college requires it.” In my opponent's posts they reiterate this over and over again yet it has no relevance to our discussion as they have not used it to defend their outright intentional challenge to me.
That position is not meaningless. College requirements are a big factor in why Buckeye Local High School offers the classes that it does. I also stated that the majority of colleges would not accept an individual who only has one Math and one Science credit. In short, if there was a High School that offered the curriculum my opponent suggests, very few, if any students would go to college after attending such a school as they would not be admitted.
Further, I do not understand why my opponent seems to resent being challenged to a debate, I suppose it is not relevant, but it may say something about my opponent and my opponent's confidence in his/her position.
Also, Loren646 acts as though the academic statistics (which were, once again, taken from an independent webiste and based in no way on High School curriculum) from the State of Ohio have any relevancy or bearing whatsoever on Buckeye Local High School. Buckeye Local High School contributes in a very small way, roughly 1/750th, to that result.
Loren acts as if the statistics and curriculums from completely different states have any relevancy or bearing on Buckeye Local High School, which they do not.
Loren acts as though changing the college entry requirements somehow pertains to this debate, which it does not.
And after all of this, Loren646 accuses my positions as being irrelevant. Due to the statements made by Loren646, I have spent the majority of my end of the debate arguing irrelevant positions initially brought up by Loren646.
It is my belief that my opponent went off tangent because they knew that they originally had a very weak position and argument against me (as I have been giving my points and reasoning my opponent has gradually started to agree with me).
I have not gradually started to agree with my opponent, my positions have gradually been further and further from those of my opponent. The tangents I have went off on have all been in response to initial statements by my opponent that are not relevant to this discussion and in no way discredit my vision for an ideal educational curriculum.
I would also like to add that my opponent has made a habit of sarcasm and disrespect throughout the course of this debate. I pointed out such disrespect in my rebuttal, and instead of apologizing or at the very least ignoring my statement, my opponent further disrespects my position, the State of Ohio, and myself by posting a chart stating Ohio is the, "Middle of Nowhere," as if it somehow constitutes a fact.
I have approached my opponent with census findings, an actual example of a curriculum, legitimate web-sources that have been used to illustrate facts and have even countered one of my opponent's points, with my opponent's own websource. In exchange, my opponent has brought assumption, sarcasm, insult and disrespect to this debate. Initially, if my opponent had not intended to disrepsect me, I would have simply brushed it off and left it for the judges to decide, but when I informed my opponent that I found statements made regarding the State of Ohio, "Middle of nowhere," disrespectful, my opponent willfully and maliciously continued to disrespect me.
So I challenge you, pavlovianmodel146, to make a real argument against me and to really support your challenge that the current material and curriculum taught is useful to the general population (not whether the courses are needed for college. There is a huge distinction between these two sentences and the focus should be on - the “usefulness of the material” as per the challenge).
Being admitted to college is useful to the general population, therefore, courses that will get an individual admitted to college are useful, I am certain the judges will find that to be simple logic.
I have made a real argument against my opponent, I have argued the following:
1. That my opponent's educational system is not currently satisfactory to college entrance requirements.
2. That my curriculum (a curriculum currently in use) does not force students to take, "Useless," classes.
3. That my curriculum assures freedom of choice for students where my opponent's curriculum does not as it dictates to a greater extent what classes will or will not be offered. My opponent's curriculum calls for a reduction of classes that are available to students.
4. I have argued that students in my curriculum are not forced to take, "Unnecessary," math or science courses.
The list goes on.
As of now, you, pavlovianmodel146, have failed to provide evidence supporting your argument and position* and more importantly to this debate failed to attack my position which you have challenged me on. And as such, disbarring a miraculous final posting by you where you stay on topic, defend your position, and most significantly (the reason for the whole challenge and debate), be able to convincingly deconstruct my position, I should be declared the official winner of this debate.
I have not failed to provide evidence supporting my opinion. My opinion is that a school sytem is best when it gives students the freedom to decide what they wish to do with their lives. My opinion is that a school system is best when it caters to all types of students. My opinion is that a school that does not meet college entrance requirements would not be beneficial to its students that wish to proceed to the next level.
My opponent suggests that I have failed to provide evidence supporting my argument and position because I have not supported my argument and position to my opponent's liking. A standard, I dare say, that is impossible to meet.
I do not understand why my opponent insists that the reason for the whole challenge and debate is most significant, but I will do as my opponent insists. The reason for this debate is because we had a fundamental disagreement regarding a very important issue and I believed that this would be a positive way to have a formal discussion with one another regarding that issue.
Finally, I have not failed to attack my opponent's position (s), my opponent has failed to attack mine in a relevant way. My opponent has cited examples that have absolutely nothing to do with the curriculum of Buckeye Local High School in conjunction with the Jefferson County Joint Vocational School. My opponent has very rarely, attacked my actual curriculum, and when my opponent has, the attacks have been based entirely on assumption or facts that are not relevant to my ideal curriculum. I have attacked my opponent's position on very basic, fundamental terms, that should be easy to see.
I made an attack on my opponent's curriculum in the conclusion of my thesis when I stated that certain arguments could be dismissed regarding my opponent's position.
I argued that my opponent's curriculum does not serve to ensure college admission for students wishing to go to college, and rather than prove that it does, my opponent challenged what college admission should or should not be. The fact remains that if all other things remain the same, my opponent's curriculum will not assure that students desiring to go to college will. Furthermore, my opponent suggests that in changing the High School Graduation Requirements the colleges would be forced to change their admission requirements. Nothing could be further from the truth, a good many colleges and universities are private, what the public school system does has no influence whatsoever on their requirements.
I argued that my opponent's curriculum does not teach enough Math. While I felt it unnecessary to state what type of Math my opponent's curriculum should teach, I did give examples of various possible math curriculums for high school and pointed out how they either pertain to college entry, or their utility to an individual.
My opponent argued that I could not prove that any aspect of Geometry or Algebra is useful and I did for both. Additionally, I would also like to point out that my curriculum does not require that every or any student take Algebra or Geometry.
I argued that there is not enough Science in my opponent's curriculum for college admission, and my opponent failed to acknowledge my argument in any relevant way just like in the Math example.
My posting the guidelines for college entry is my argument against my main argument against my opponent's educational system. Rather than my opponent proving that said system will successfully get individuals who wish to go to college into college, my opponent simply argued that college admission standards are wrong.
In regards to the debate:
A. My opponent has disrespected me.
B. My opponent has often stated that my believes are wrong without conclusive supporting argument.
C. My opponent has used statements/sources against me that are completely irrelevant to my position.
D. My opponent has taken my statements out of context, and has even went as far as to take individual words of mine out of context.
E. My opponent has attempted to use quotes against me that did not come from this debate.
A debate is ideally an academically challenging and enjoyable affair conducted by two parties that disagree with one another, but simultaneously respect one another. My opponent has elected to pull every punch and use under-handed tactics to attempt to win this debate.
In short, my opponent has removed every scrap of enjoyment and much of the academic challenge from this debate by willfully and maliciously being disrespectful toward me and going off-topic.
Again, I would like to reiterate my thanks to my opponent for accepting my challenge, to Xunzian, Wonderer and DorkyDood for voluntarily judging this debate, to Carleas for moderating this debate and to all spectators who have read this debate.
EDIT: Edited to fix my quotes.