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capitalism and communism.. the connection...

PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:36 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
both of them are economic systems, not political nor
social.. but economic systems and that makes all the difference
in the world...... both systems exists with the understanding
that the most important factor in human experience is
the economic one.... for capitalists, it means making everyone
below them, workers.. who work for the capitalists and thus
creates profits for the capitalist... recall my basic argument,
actually stolen from Marx...but anyway, If I am paid $5.00 bucks
an hour and I produce $10 of goods, the capitalists steals that
extra $5.00 of work, of effort that I did and makes a profit from that theft...

the failing of capitalism is quite evident today, with millions refusing to
work and the massive supply chain issues that plague every retailer
and business in my store for example, we haven't had
paper bags in a year... that is strictly due to the supply chain problems
that has limited the amount of paper that is created in America...
our shelfs are bare and will continue to be bare because there
is very little movement in goods around the world because of these
supply chain problem... capitalism is unable to solve these issues,
and the capitalist argument that any/all issues of economics (and really
of society) can be solved with capitalism....
thus current events show us the complete bankruptcy of modern capitalism...
it is unable to solve these pretty basic problems of getting supplies
to those who need it to keep the business working....
and if capitalism was working, then millions of people would go back to work,
but its failure is understood by people.... who wants to work in a failed
economic system that offers them and us, nothing.....bad pay,
very little incentive to work, no possibility of a retirement that
actually means something... a health system that if used, will bankrupt
one... as it almost did us a few years ago and we have health insurance....

we can see the many failures of capitalism first hand these days...

but what about communism? it has the exact same issue, the final
"utopia" is a worker state... and what is the capitalistic final "utopia"
a worker state.....where people work their entire lives for basically nothing....
and the only goal is to enrich the already wealthy....

so in essence, there is no real difference between capitalism and communism
because they try for the exact same goal, to make everyone a worker,
a slave to business on one hand, and a slave to the government on another hand....

pick your poison, as they say....

as for me, I reject both and say, let us find a third and a much more
human economic system that doesn't turn everyone into a worker..........

let us go higher and try to find a economic system that holds that people
is the point of an economic system, not as an means like both
capitalism and communism, but as an end.. create an economic
system that raises people from animal/human to becoming fully human.....
because we don't have that right now... right now all we have in both
capitalism and communism, is a system that only goal is to turn people
into workers, slaves to their respective masters...

let us engage in some imagination and seek out a new, ethical
economic system that treats human beings like human beings and not like
animals or slaves


Re: capitalism and communism.. the connection...

PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:54 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
the point of existence for both capitalism and communism is
that man, human beings are Homo Economicus.. economic beings,
who find the meaning of existence in working and economic purpose.....
a definition I, quite clearly, disagree with.. man/human beings
is more, much more then simply economic beings....
that is to reduce what it means to be human to simply
economic reasons... to consume, to produce, to work,
is the entirety of human existence...

to find what it means to be human isn't just a search for
what is means to consume or produce or work at....
no, the basis of existence is to explore our possibilities of
what it means to be human... now, is work part of that
possibilities, yes, but only a part, not as capitalism
or communism which assumes that work is the only possibility
of human existence.......

in my life, I have/had the possibilities of being an athlete,
and being a philosopher and being a writer, I did write a book
that was published, I have the possibility of being an ethical
human being, I can engaged in the reason, the logical aspect
of human existence and I can engage in the possibility
of irrationalism... the search for love, the search for hope,
the search for the aesthetics in life....and I can even engage in
both possibilities... seeking both reason and seeking the irrationalism
in life......

so as the point of existence is to seek one's possibilities,
not just as a worker who exists simply to consume, produce or
to work/activity that does nothing to make me a better person,
I hold that the two competing economic systems are simple
terrible choices in what it means to be human.....

we need a third choice....


Re: capitalism and communism.. the connection...

PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:11 pm
by Chakra Superstar

EDIT: Just need to say that I don't agree with the Marxist garbage below. It's too puerile to even argue against... but that being said, at least you're realizing that socialism/communism is just another control mechanism for the powerful. I wish others would see how they're being played to hate each other.
Peter Kropotkin wrote: my basic argument, actually stolen from Marx...but anyway, If I am paid $5.00 bucks an hour and I produce $10 of goods, the capitalists steals that.


Re: capitalism and communism.. the connection...

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:54 am
by promethean75
We wouldn't say the capitalist 'steals' anything in the exchange you mention, keter, because the exchange is agreed upon in advance by the employer and employee, and the capitalist isn't actually taking possession of some property without permission.

What Marx was moreso drawing attention to is how stupid and unnecessary that kind of economic arrangement is; that a worker would be paid less than the value of what he produced by someone who had nothing to add to the chain of production itself, but who owned the company and therefore also what was produced by it. The 'owner', from the perspective of the worker, is a perfectly arbitrary aspect of the process of production and distribution, and needn't even be present in the process.

That he is still here overseeing this process and profiting from it, is because the workers haven't yet been able to remove him. But he's certainly not here because he needs to be or because he's a necessary part of the chain of production.

Remember the 'capitalism in a nutshell' cartoon?