a critique of the left...

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a critique of the left...

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:00 pm

because unlike the conservative, the right wing..
I am not afraid to challenge what it means to be liberal.....

I have noted with some of the Tiger woods coverage, he was criticized
for crossing the road and could, yes could have injured or killed someone...
this is clearly from a Liberal....

this would a typical response to an action, past, present or future..

for example, in the of the recent discussions I have heard, although I admit
not too recently has been about reparations for the African-Americans who suffered
through slavery... now this is an idea that every single liberal can get behind...

an idea about justice being served through the actions of the present to
help a prior or previous wrong done to a person, people or country....

and the act of justice to a people for wrongs done to them is your basic
and fundamental engagement a liberal would have to this matter
and one I oppose...... I can see the value of it, but nevertheless I
oppose in the strongest terms any sort of reparations to African-Americans..
for injustice done in the past....and any injustice that "might" be done in the
future... we simple cannot account for injustice, either past or future with
actions done now....

(sorry about that, I had some errands that needed to be done now)

so as I was saying, we cannot find justice or any semblance of justice
with the use of reparations, for slaves or the descendants of slaves...

for several reasons, how do we determine who exactly deserves the money?

I might be white but part of my heritage is that I am part black,
do I get part of the money? I don't see why, but many might make that
argument that if you have any BLOOD from slaves, you have a right to
that money.... that is large portion of American's... at least 25% of all Americans
can rightfully claim to be African-American...we might guess, perhaps at least
75 million Americans can rightfully claim that money.... now what?

as a practical matter, trying to find justice through reparations might prove to be
difficult to say the least....

but there are other, just as severe problems with reparations...
I can claim as being part Irish, that I too was discriminated against
and I too deserved some reparation money... how do we pay off all the
various groups from the Irish to Chinese to Italians that have been discriminated
against since the founding of America? where do we draw the line?

to solve the problem of injustice with actions is the very hallmark
of being liberal, but we cannot randomly or even with deliberations decide
which group or individual deserves or should have reparations of this type?

I doubt any sort of formula can give justice to those who were treated
unjustly or unfairly in the past.....I just don't see a logical, rational means
of making justice in this particular way....

and this is clearly a failure of the left... trying to create justice,
which is what we should be doing, but we cannot, cannot turn this
unjust or unfair treatment of African-Americans into something like
reparations for African-American's.......

seeking justice at all cost is part of the failure of the left...
and I can see how seeking justice is part and parcel of what it means
to be liberal but we must be fair and logical about this...

My ancestors may have had slaves and I am stained by the sin of this,
but I cannot let any possible guilt guide me into making really false
positions about what is just and what is not....

we cannot seek justice in this fashion because we cannot find justice
in this fashion of reparations to African-Americans....

so if we are to act, and I am not sure we actually should act in any sort
of fashion to find justice for any group including African-American's...
in terms of reparations or other mechanism of seeking redemption
for being the descendants of slave holders... not all of my ancestors were
slave holders, and frankly I am not exactly sure any were slave holders,
but I cannot hold to any type of guilt for possibly being the descendants of
slave holders...I do not carry around the sins of my forefathers.... no matter what
that sin might be and I certainly don't carry or hold the sins of my father....

I am me and whatever sins I might have done, is me and stays with me....it doesn't
pass down to my daughter or any other children I might have...

my sins are my sins and I alone atone for them... no one else but me....

and when I die, my sins die with me...no matter what I might do, my sins
end with me...... and thus we must reject any attempt at reparations for slaves
or any body else unless it is current, within my lifetime and I am responsible for those
sins.....past sins stay in the past, current sins can be tied into action, but future sins,
lay there in the future...and don't bother us today.....I hold to just the present as to
the degree of sin and any possible punishment for those sins....today, not yesterday and
not tomorrow...............

thus end my attack upon liberalism....

are you brave enough or have courage enough to engage with conservatism?

let us see who is truly brave...

Kropotkin
PK IS EVIL.....
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Re: a critique of the left...

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:22 am

my engagement with liberalism must stand within reason and logic
and limits....I must seek justice and fair play for everyone and that is
true of liberalism but I cannot seek justice and fair play that isn't limited
or rational or logical...to seek reparations for African-Americans is a noble
idea and worthy of liberalism but it isn't limited and it isn't rational....

now we may find a more rational and targeted solution to the injustice committed
upon African-Americans and I hope, truly hope we find it, but the answer is not
in reparations to a people for injustices done a 150 years ago...and those on the left
who push this idea is committing a grave injustice themselves....and as we know,
two injustices cannot make a right....justice must be found on both sides of the
equation....or it isn't justice at all... and we seek justice.. for all...but rational,
logical, responsible justice that has limits...

Kropotkin
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Re: a critique of the left...

Postby d0rkyd00d » Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:39 am

You bring up some tough points and interesting questions.

I think it is worth mentioning, however, that even though slavery ended 150 years ago (which is still only 2 generations), disparate policies bled wealth from the African American community well into the 1960's, which is obviously a generation still alive today.

So in some sense, reparations would not be paying for the mistakes of some distant relative: they would have validity even for those living amongst us today.

That said, it seems we can't even get equality right NOW, what hope do we have for any reasonable discourse around reparations?
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
-Bertrand Russell
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Re: a critique of the left...

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:01 am

d0rkyd00d wrote:You bring up some tough points and interesting questions.

I think it is worth mentioning, however, that even though slavery ended 150 years ago (which is still only 2 generations), disparate policies bled wealth from the African American community well into the 1960's, which is obviously a generation still alive today.

So in some sense, reparations would not be paying for the mistakes of some distant relative: they would have validity even for those living amongst us today.

That said, it seems we can't even get equality right NOW, what hope do we have for any reasonable discourse around reparations?



K: in that we can't even get equality today, I agree with you....
but my point was the some, some liberals have argued for reparations in
the past as an attempt to get justice for those who are alive now... but
the mere fact of being alive today isn't really getting justice for those who
were slaves, that ship sailed a 150 years ago....now I must point out
that there were slaves that were still alive when I was born, 1959...
and were children in 1865, but they were still slaves.... so did they deserved
some reparations? I would say yes, but again, we have to target and limit
the who, what, when, where, how and why? or we will find ourselves in a shitload
of problems that are far greater then finding justice for slaves....

but this is in an attempt to critique the left, do you have a critique of the left
you wish to make? now is the time as we are brave enough to make such an attempt..

Kropotkin
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Re: a critique of the left...

Postby d0rkyd00d » Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:52 pm

My complaints about the left? Oh man, how much time do you have? :D

Cancel culture is ridiculous. DIsney's decision to fire that actress when they remain silent about the genocide in China is blatant hypocrisy. They took away one of my favorite episodes of Community because Chang is painted with black face paint, and that's where I draw the line. I was against cancel culture from day one, and my intuition strongly resists the notion that we are somehow going to make a kinder world for our children, when we should be focusing on making our children stronger for what is an unkind world.

I don't want to get too far into the weeds on the issue of gender, but let's just say I have a dissenting opinion about removing biological gender from birth certificates and other such notions that seemingly deny the objective facts of reality / nature.

Often the most "liberal" companies that embrace anti-racism, LBGTQ+ rights, etc., are financial institutions, which on the other hand don't mind fucking over hundreds of millions of poor people the world over with discriminatory and predatory practices, fraud, shadow lines of credit, misrepresentation, or just plain shitty products. These evil geniuses took Dr. King's message, that it is far easier to integrate a lunch counter than it is to solve the problem of homelessness, and have weaponized it into an advertising campaign of catharsis.
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
-Bertrand Russell
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Re: a critique of the left...

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:16 am

so we have offered up two distinct and separate critiques of the left......

will anyone on the right do the same?

Nah, that would require courage, intelligence and accountability for
their positions and we can't have that, can we?

Kropotkin
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Re: a critique of the left...

Postby Mr Reasonable » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:38 am

here's a critique of the left. they have no balls. when the right had control of the govt they went scorched earth for their own interests. the left is out here trying to make the right feel wanted now instead of cancelling student debt, increasing minimum wage, and ending the war on drugs.
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Re: a critique of the left...

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:37 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:here's a critique of the left. they have no balls. when the right had control of the govt they went scorched earth for their own interests. the left is out here trying to make the right feel wanted now instead of cancelling student debt, increasing minimum wage, and ending the war on drugs.


K: and in fact, I agree with you... I would love a lefty who took names
and kicked ass... if you care about something like increasing minimum wage,
then we should fight just as hard as the right does to disenfranchise people
or keep people from making enough money to survive... a lefty who
beat the crap out of their opponents would get my vote.....

Kropotkin
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Re: a critique of the left...

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:50 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:because unlike the conservative, the right wing..
I am not afraid to challenge what it means to be liberal.....

I have noted with some of the Tiger woods coverage, he was criticized
for crossing the road and could, yes could have injured or killed someone...
this is clearly from a Liberal....

this would a typical response to an action, past, present or future..

for example, in the of the recent discussions I have heard, although I admit
not too recently has been about reparations for the African-Americans who suffered
through slavery... now this is an idea that every single liberal can get behind...

an idea about justice being served through the actions of the present to
help a prior or previous wrong done to a person, people or country....

and the act of justice to a people for wrongs done to them is your basic
and fundamental engagement a liberal would have to this matter
and one I oppose...... I can see the value of it, but nevertheless I
oppose in the strongest terms any sort of reparations to African-Americans..
for injustice done in the past....and any injustice that "might" be done in the
future... we simple cannot account for injustice, either past or future with
actions done now....

(sorry about that, I had some errands that needed to be done now)

so as I was saying, we cannot find justice or any semblance of justice
with the use of reparations, for slaves or the descendants of slaves...

for several reasons, how do we determine who exactly deserves the money?

I might be white but part of my heritage is that I am part black,
do I get part of the money? I don't see why, but many might make that
argument that if you have any BLOOD from slaves, you have a right to
that money.... that is large portion of American's... at least 25% of all Americans
can rightfully claim to be African-American...we might guess, perhaps at least
75 million Americans can rightfully claim that money.... now what?

as a practical matter, trying to find justice through reparations might prove to be
difficult to say the least....

but there are other, just as severe problems with reparations...
I can claim as being part Irish, that I too was discriminated against
and I too deserved some reparation money... how do we pay off all the
various groups from the Irish to Chinese to Italians that have been discriminated
against since the founding of America? where do we draw the line?

to solve the problem of injustice with actions is the very hallmark
of being liberal, but we cannot randomly or even with deliberations decide
which group or individual deserves or should have reparations of this type?

I doubt any sort of formula can give justice to those who were treated
unjustly or unfairly in the past.....I just don't see a logical, rational means
of making justice in this particular way....

and this is clearly a failure of the left... trying to create justice,
which is what we should be doing, but we cannot, cannot turn this
unjust or unfair treatment of African-Americans into something like
reparations for African-American's.......

seeking justice at all cost is part of the failure of the left...
and I can see how seeking justice is part and parcel of what it means
to be liberal but we must be fair and logical about this...

My ancestors may have had slaves and I am stained by the sin of this,
but I cannot let any possible guilt guide me into making really false
positions about what is just and what is not....

we cannot seek justice in this fashion because we cannot find justice
in this fashion of reparations to African-Americans....

so if we are to act, and I am not sure we actually should act in any sort
of fashion to find justice for any group including African-American's...
in terms of reparations or other mechanism of seeking redemption
for being the descendants of slave holders... not all of my ancestors were
slave holders, and frankly I am not exactly sure any were slave holders,
but I cannot hold to any type of guilt for possibly being the descendants of
slave holders...I do not carry around the sins of my forefathers.... no matter what
that sin might be and I certainly don't carry or hold the sins of my father....

I am me and whatever sins I might have done, is me and stays with me....it doesn't
pass down to my daughter or any other children I might have...

my sins are my sins and I alone atone for them... no one else but me....

and when I die, my sins die with me...no matter what I might do, my sins
end with me...... and thus we must reject any attempt at reparations for slaves
or any body else unless it is current, within my lifetime and I am responsible for those
sins.....past sins stay in the past, current sins can be tied into action, but future sins,
lay there in the future...and don't bother us today.....I hold to just the present as to
the degree of sin and any possible punishment for those sins....today, not yesterday and
not tomorrow...............

thus end my attack upon liberalism....

are you brave enough or have courage enough to engage with conservatism?

let us see who is truly brave...

Kropotkin

so if we are to act, and I am not sure we actually should act in any sort
of fashion to find justice for any group including African-American's...
in terms of reparations or other mechanism of seeking redemption
for being the descendants of slave holders


You say you are against but what I quoted does not reflect against. Why aren't you sure, are you being politically correct? This is where I misread you (sorry) because you are wishy washy. Oh, not sure if it's a good "idea to find justice for any group?" You stated earlier that it was wrong and your reasons why it is wrong, then you turn like a slime and puke out the opposite position in what I quoted above. Is it really wrong to punish your daughter for her great, great, great, great Uncle's wrong doings? Name the unjust laws against black Americans? Give me an example of systemic racism.

I'll try to read you better but when you state two opposite stances, rather than one solid one then I start skimming because the post has become a virtue signaling crock of nothing.

Now, what is the difference in ending a war and starting a war?
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Re: a critique of the left...

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:00 am

d0rkyd00d wrote:You bring up some tough points and interesting questions.

I think it is worth mentioning, however, that even though slavery ended 150 years ago (which is still only 2 generations), disparate policies bled wealth from the African American community well into the 1960's, which is obviously a generation still alive today.

So in some sense, reparations would not be paying for the mistakes of some distant relative: they would have validity even for those living amongst us today.

That said, it seems we can't even get equality right NOW, what hope do we have for any reasonable discourse around reparations?


A generation occurs every twenty years.
Member of The Coalition of Truth - member #2/2

"facts change all the time and not only that, they don't mean anything...."-Peter Kropotkin :evilfun:
"I can hope they have some degree of self-awareness but the facts suggest that
they don't..... "- Peter Kropotkin
. :evilfun:
"you don't know the value of facts and you don't know the value of the ‘TRUTH”... " -Peter Kropotkin :lol:
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