The Culture War

[Mad Man P]

As someone who lives in a country that is not yet falling apart at the seams, this culture war that is being waged in many western countries, is both fascinating as well as frightening...

Tribalism is back with a vengeance and it all happened so quickly...
The digital age of the internet allows ideas to spread and take hold at a rate that is historically unprecedented which has many consequences that seem completely predictable and I'm sure some that only historians with hindsight could consider predictable.

Ideas no longer have to endure a crucible of criticism and consideration to spread, they merely need be spoken and carry an appealing promise to be adopted on a large scale.
Where cults and charismatic charlatans could only rope in hundreds, they now could do the same to millions instead...
Where adopting new ideas used to required, out of social necessity, you be able to defend them and earn them respectability amongst neighbors of differing views.
Now you can find a group of lunatics, if needs be, spread throughout the world who will agree with every word you say, regardless of what you say, providing you the illusion of respectability.

Ideas so brittle that they cannot endure any critical scrutiny now can flourish and consequently require that you silence opposing voices to sustain them.
There is no longer a desire to win any argument... but to win a war... and as is always the case, those most eager to fight are certain they have right on their side.
Battle lines are drawn... tribes are formed and it's always the other who is the problem.

I have been struggling to find a light at the end of this tunnel and the only hope I can muster is perversely found in the very thing I believe is the cause.
The speed at which new ideas spread might also allow us to defuse this bomb before it goes off...
Though I have no idea what perspective would unite the now entrenched tribes, the fact that it could spread fast enough is the only sliver of hope that I can see.

There is another part of me that believes this disease needs to run its course, ruin countless lives and possible shatter a few societies before humanity develops the mental antibodies and adapts to this new technological environment.
A bleak defeatist attitude that doesn't sit well with me, but that seems unfortunately as plausible as anything else on offer.
Of course the tribals will say their victory would usher in a new utopia or bring back a lost one and so their hopes are tied up in winning this war...

But for those of us who are watching this insanity unfold from afar... it seems clear that this war, like most others, cannot produce winners... it will only produce loss.
History is not clear to those living through it, the answer might be right around the corner and quite obvious... but at the moment, I can't see it.

[WendyDarling]

As someone who lives in a country that is not yet falling apart at the seams, this culture war that is being waged in many western countries, is both fascinating as well as frightening...

Tribalism is back with a vengeance and it all happened so quickly...
The digital age of the internet allows ideas to spread and take hold at a rate that is historically unprecedented which has many consequences that seem completely predictable and I'm sure some that only historians with hindsight could consider predictable.

Ideas no longer have to endure a crucible of criticism and consideration to spread, they merely need be spoken and carry an appealing promise to be adopted on a large scale.
Where cults and charismatic charlatans could only rope in hundreds, they now could do the same to millions instead...
Where adopting new ideas used to required, out of social necessity, you be able to defend them and earn them respectability amongst neighbors of differing views.
Now you can find a group of lunatics, if needs be, spread throughout the world who will agree with every word you say, regardless of what you say, providing you the illusion of respectability.

Ideas so brittle that they cannot endure any critical scrutiny now can flourish and consequently require that you silence opposing voices to sustain them.
There is no longer a desire to win any argument... but to win a war... and as is always the case, those most eager to fight are certain they have right on their side.
Battle lines are drawn... tribes are formed and it's always the other who is the problem.

I have been struggling to find a light at the end of this tunnel and the only hope I can muster is perversely found in the very thing I believe is the cause.
The speed at which new ideas spread might also allow us to defuse this bomb before it goes off...
Though I have no idea what perspective would unite the now entrenched tribes, the fact that it could spread fast enough is the only sliver of hope that I can see.

There is another part of me that believes this disease needs to run its course, ruin countless lives and possible shatter a few societies before humanity develops the mental antibodies and adapts to this new technological environment.
A bleak defeatist attitude that doesn't sit well with me, but that seems unfortunately as plausible as anything else on offer.
Of course the tribals will say their victory would usher in a new utopia or bring back a lost one and so their hopes are tied up in winning this war...

But for those of us who are watching this insanity unfold from afar... it seems clear that this war, like most others, cannot produce winners... it will only produce loss.
History is not clear to those living through it, the answer might be right around the corner and quite obvious... but at the moment, I can't see it.

In which country are you?

[Sculptor]

As someone who lives in a country that is not yet falling apart at the seams, this culture war that is being waged in many western countries, is both fascinating as well as frightening...

History is not clear to those living through it, the answer might be right around the corner and quite obvious... but at the moment, I can't see it.

In a land with 5 million, and great social care and welfare, you can continue to rest easy.
These problems tend to be attracted to places where the poor and there problems are exaserbated by runaway capitalism, together with the distractions of indentity politics.
Whilst disparate groups (ethnic, gender, and racial) are encouraged to fight for their rights, capitalism gets on with moving their jobs abroad, lowering their wages, reducing their workplace right, raising their mortgages and giving tax breaks to the rich.
But whilst black shout BLM ,whites say whatabout us?? As if they are the victims. ANd there are plenty of pig stupid uneducated whites that stand ready to blame their woes, not on the winding down of social provision, but on the blacks and the "queers", and the immigrants that they have become convinced are the cause of all their problems.
THe news media feeds those fears and false truths.
Stay where you are. I'd not go anywhere near the US or the UK any time soon.

[WendyDarling]

All western countries, excluding Poland for the time being, are screwed.

[WendyDarling]

As someone who lives in a country that is not yet falling apart at the seams, this culture war that is being waged in many western countries, is both fascinating as well as frightening...

Tribalism is back with a vengeance and it all happened so quickly...
The digital age of the internet allows ideas to spread and take hold at a rate that is historically unprecedented which has many consequences that seem completely predictable and I'm sure some that only historians with hindsight could consider predictable.

Ideas no longer have to endure a crucible of criticism and consideration to spread, they merely need be spoken and carry an appealing promise to be adopted on a large scale.
Where cults and charismatic charlatans could only rope in hundreds, they now could do the same to millions instead...
Where adopting new ideas used to required, out of social necessity, you be able to defend them and earn them respectability amongst neighbors of differing views.
Now you can find a group of lunatics, if needs be, spread throughout the world who will agree with every word you say, regardless of what you say, providing you the illusion of respectability.

Ideas so brittle that they cannot endure any critical scrutiny now can flourish and consequently require that you silence opposing voices to sustain them.
There is no longer a desire to win any argument... but to win a war... and as is always the case, those most eager to fight are certain they have right on their side.
Battle lines are drawn... tribes are formed and it's always the other who is the problem.

I have been struggling to find a light at the end of this tunnel and the only hope I can muster is perversely found in the very thing I believe is the cause.
The speed at which new ideas spread might also allow us to defuse this bomb before it goes off...
Though I have no idea what perspective would unite the now entrenched tribes, the fact that it could spread fast enough is the only sliver of hope that I can see.

There is another part of me that believes this disease needs to run its course, ruin countless lives and possible shatter a few societies before humanity develops the mental antibodies and adapts to this new technological environment.
A bleak defeatist attitude that doesn't sit well with me, but that seems unfortunately as plausible as anything else on offer.
Of course the tribals will say their victory would usher in a new utopia or bring back a lost one and so their hopes are tied up in winning this war...

But for those of us who are watching this insanity unfold from afar... it seems clear that this war, like most others, cannot produce winners... it will only produce loss.
History is not clear to those living through it, the answer might be right around the corner and quite obvious... but at the moment, I can't see it.

Curious that you call it tribalism. What is your definition of tribalism?

As an American patriot, this war is between reality supporters and reality deniers. The left deny reality. The right support reality. The left now calls breastfeeding “chestfeeding” to be more inclusive as if a man can chestfeed. To the left, men are women. To the left, women are men. To the left, sex changes should be performed on four year olds. To the left, your free to claim to be a 7 years old, 5’0”, Chinese woman one day and a 7’0”, 105 years old, African man the next day. To the left, fucking a 14 years old is not wrong, it’s consensual adult sex. To the left, only whites are racists and all whites are racist. To the left, there are over a hundred genders. To the left, abortion is something to brag about. To the left, systemic racism is found in US national laws but they can’t name any. To the left, cops only kill unarmed black men. To the left, violence and destruction is justice but only when they do it. To the left, white privilege exists and schools and employers must force all white people to understand that they are privileged, racists. To the left, everything should be free. To the left, the definitions of words must be changed to reflect their insanity. To the left, everything they don’t like is hate speech and unthreatening, free speech must be silenced or forced by law in Canada to reflect the gender fluidity of modern liberals. To the left, it’s guns that kill people, rather than people killing people. Love the UK insanity of the left, turn in your butter knives because it’s knives killing people, not people killing people. To the left, children should not be touched in any disciplinary way, unless you wanna have kinky sex with a 14 years old, then these same undisciplined kids, millennials and younger, have no hesitation acting violent against others as adults but cry like bitches when people defend themselves. To the left, the police are the problem, not the criminals. To the left, 1.5 trillion dollars of covid relief should go to their corporate benefactors and other countries and only .4 trillion directly to the American people and American small businesses. To the left, Abraham Lincoln and George Washington’s contributions to the USA must be abolished, statues destroyed, history rewritten. To the left, more people dying from drug overdoses, suicide, murder due to Covid lockdowns rather than actual Covid deaths doesn’t matter, only Covid deaths matter. 99% of modern insanity lives in the left, the reality deniers, so I don’t understand why you call this tribal.

[Kathrina]

As someone who lives in a country that is not yet falling apart at the seams, this culture war that is being waged in many western countries, is both fascinating as well as frightening...

Tribalism is back with a vengeance and it all happened so quickly...
The digital age of the internet allows ideas to spread and take hold at a rate that is historically unprecedented which has many consequences that seem completely predictable and I'm sure some that only historians with hindsight could consider predictable.

Ideas no longer have to endure a crucible of criticism and consideration to spread, they merely need be spoken and carry an appealing promise to be adopted on a large scale.
Where cults and charismatic charlatans could only rope in hundreds, they now could do the same to millions instead...
Where adopting new ideas used to required, out of social necessity, you be able to defend them and earn them respectability amongst neighbors of differing views.
Now you can find a group of lunatics, if needs be, spread throughout the world who will agree with every word you say, regardless of what you say, providing you the illusion of respectability.

Ideas so brittle that they cannot endure any critical scrutiny now can flourish and consequently require that you silence opposing voices to sustain them.
There is no longer a desire to win any argument... but to win a war... and as is always the case, those most eager to fight are certain they have right on their side.
Battle lines are drawn... tribes are formed and it's always the other who is the problem.

I have been struggling to find a light at the end of this tunnel and the only hope I can muster is perversely found in the very thing I believe is the cause.
The speed at which new ideas spread might also allow us to defuse this bomb before it goes off...
Though I have no idea what perspective would unite the now entrenched tribes, the fact that it could spread fast enough is the only sliver of hope that I can see.

There is another part of me that believes this disease needs to run its course, ruin countless lives and possible shatter a few societies before humanity develops the mental antibodies and adapts to this new technological environment.
A bleak defeatist attitude that doesn't sit well with me, but that seems unfortunately as plausible as anything else on offer.
Of course the tribals will say their victory would usher in a new utopia or bring back a lost one and so their hopes are tied up in winning this war...

But for those of us who are watching this insanity unfold from afar... it seems clear that this war, like most others, cannot produce winners... it will only produce loss.
History is not clear to those living through it, the answer might be right around the corner and quite obvious... but at the moment, I can't see it.

Curious that you call it tribalism. What is your definition of tribalism?

As an American patriot, this war is between reality supporters and reality deniers. The left deny reality. The right support reality. The left now calls breastfeeding “chestfeeding” to be more inclusive as if a man can chestfeed. To the left, men are women. To the left, women are men. To the left, sex changes should be performed on four year olds. To the left, your free to claim to be a 7 years old, 5’0”, Chinese woman one day and a 7’0”, 105 years old, African man the next day. To the left, fucking a 14 years old is not wrong, it’s consensual adult sex. To the left, only whites are racists and all whites are racist. To the left, there are over a hundred genders. To the left, abortion is something to brag about. To the left, systemic racism is found in US national laws but they can’t name any. To the left, cops only kill unarmed black men. To the left, violence and destruction is justice but only when they do it. To the left, white privilege exists and schools and employers must force all white people to understand that they are privileged, racists. To the left, everything should be free. To the left, the definitions of words must be changed to reflect their insanity. To the left, everything they don’t like is hate speech and unthreatening, free speech must be silenced or forced by law in Canada to reflect the gender fluidity of modern liberals. To the left, it’s guns that kill people, rather than people killing people. Love the UK insanity of the left, turn in your butter knives because it’s knives killing people, not people killing people. To the left, children should not be touched in any disciplinary way, unless you wanna have kinky sex with a 14 years old, then these same undisciplined kids, millennials and younger, have no hesitation acting violent against others as adults but cry like bitches when people defend themselves. To the left, the police are the problem, not the criminals. To the left, 1.5 trillion dollars of covid relief should go to their corporate benefactors and other countries and only .4 trillion directly to the American people and American small businesses. To the left, Abraham Lincoln and George Washington’s contributions to the USA must be abolished, statues destroyed, history rewritten. To the left, more people dying from drug overdoses, suicide, murder due to Covid lockdowns rather than actual Covid deaths doesn’t matter, only Covid deaths matter. 99% of modern insanity lives in the left, the reality deniers, so I don’t understand why you call this tribal.

They are only justifying and testing their fakes and excuses, which they will use to cover up their own crimes even better.

[obsrvr524]

There is another part of me that believes this disease needs to run its course, ruin countless lives and possible shatter a few societies before humanity develops the mental antibodies and adapts to this new technological environment.
A bleak defeatist attitude that doesn't sit well with me, but that seems unfortunately as plausible as anything else on offer.

That is pretty much where I stand as well. I have seen what seems legitimate proposals in both directions - catastrophic global long term communism to human annihilation - or - an awakening to an organized, networked type of constitutional tribalism allowing for humanity to prevail. I can't really decide which is more likely. But the conversion process seems miserable either way.

Of course the tribals will say their victory would usher in a new utopia or bring back a lost one and so their hopes are tied up in winning this war...

But for those of us who are watching this insanity unfold from afar... it seems clear that this war, like most others, cannot produce winners... it will only produce loss.
History is not clear to those living through it, the answer might be right around the corner and quite obvious... but at the moment, I can't see it.

Much the same as Wendy - "Specifically what are you calling 'tribalism'"?

[Mad Man P]

In a land with 5 million, and great social care and welfare, you can continue to rest easy.

You might have said the same about sweden... but they too have fallen prey to this phenomena.
You paint this thing as entirely a consequence of material wealth and it's privation, which may be part of the story...
but that view seems blind to the role of ideas and ideologies and just what degree of mad work can be done in their service.

I wish I could believe things were as simple as you portray them... because then I could rest easy and the solution would be obvious.
In this era, more so than any other, we are subjected to unvetted ideas and ideologies, while many of the safeguards against them running rampant no longer function
The disciplines and institutions that were once a bulwark against the worst excesses are failing us for various reasons, not least of which is for their own survival in this new landscape.
The signal to noise ratio is impenetrable and the landscape competitive... everyone baits their hooks with hyperbolic language or literal falsehoods to even exist.

A whole host of things are changing all at once... and we're in a period of adaptation.
It's too complex for me.. I can't see the pattern so it's hard to tell where the dominoes will fall…

What worries me the most though, is that entering a new landscape requires us at our best to make sure we don't take some catastrophic step in this new world we've made for ourselves.

And yet here we are having lost our collective minds. Though the world has never been this complex, everyone is filled with absolute certitude about what needs doing and how things work.
A near religious fervor is mustered for simple solutions to complex problems... If we but did this or that, we'd live in paradise… and when you believe that, anyone standing in your way is automatically a villain and the very reason the world is shitty.

Of course the tribals will say their victory would usher in a new utopia or bring back a lost one and so their hopes are tied up in winning this war...

But for those of us who are watching this insanity unfold from afar... it seems clear that this war, like most others, cannot produce winners... it will only produce loss.
History is not clear to those living through it, the answer might be right around the corner and quite obvious... but at the moment, I can't see it.

Much the same as Wendy - "Specifically what are you calling 'tribalism'"?

Group loyalties that make "others" of your neighbors...

As an American patriot, this war is between reality supporters and reality deniers. The left deny reality.

That is a near perfect example... the other "tribe" spins similar yarns about who you are and which parts of reality you deny.
A god damn semantic disagreement about how words ought be defined has become a psychosis for both sides.
While you, rightly i might add, point out that trans-women being allowed to compete in women's sports is insane...
They paint you with a similar brush in denying there is such a thing as gender-dysphoria that is best treated (given our current understanding of it) with some social acquiescence and compassion.

Now that is no more an accurate portrayal of you than yours is of "them"... but tribes paint each other by their worst members... so you gotta ask is there no one on the right who might believe cooky shit?
Cuz if there are... then it ought be fair game to paint everyone on the right with that brush.
Just as you did.

That's the tribal part... if one of "yours" commits a wrong, your tribe is guilty.
So you get real good at defending each other and turning a blind eye to your own tribes shortcomings and focus on your common enemy...
While they do the same to you.

They bring up racism and police misconduct, you bring up trans and sports, then they bring up inhumane treatment of people at the border, so you change the topic to cancel culture...
This is a sad and familiar song and dance... I don't even pay that much attention to what goes on over there and yet even I have heard this fucking tune enough that I can hum it in my sleep.

If everyone were to shed that tribalism, you might find you have many allies on the left, who agree it's insane to allow trans-women to compete with women.
And they have many allies on the right who think racism as well as police misconduct are problems that ought be dealt with...

Just two examples

But hey... fuck me, what do I know?

[obsrvr524]

A near religious fervor is mustered for simple solutions to complex problems... If we but did this or that, we'd live in paradise… and when you believe that, anyone standing in your way is automatically a villain and the very reason the world is shitty.

If everyone were to shed that tribalism, you might find you have many allies

I think "hyper-partisanship" is the right word.

When everyone is shouting, it's hard to get your message across - without SHOUTING- even LOUDER.

When everyone gets to shout (insane or otherwise) - everyone just gets LOUDER. Insanity wins the day.

The quite ones just huddle in dark corners.

[Mad Man P]

A near religious fervor is mustered for simple solutions to complex problems... If we but did this or that, we'd live in paradise… and when you believe that, anyone standing in your way is automatically a villain and the very reason the world is shitty.

If everyone were to shed that tribalism, you might find you have many allies

I think "hyper-partisanship" is the right word.

It goes deeper than that... it's not merely happening along political lines.
Racism is on the rise as well... and I mean that in it's classic sense.
People are emphasising the import of group identity as well as affiliations, and associations more and more.
Which includes political partisanship, but is not restricted to it.

Tribalism is the best word for it that I can think to conjure.

When everyone is shouting, it's hard to get your message across - without SHOUTING- even LOUDER.

When everyone gets to shout (insane or otherwise) - everyone just gets LOUDER. Insanity wins the day.

The quite ones just huddle in dark corners.

Yes... though I wish there were a recourse available beyond falling silent and watching sanity unravel... though I don't know what that might be.

[obsrvr524]

_
Partisanship means more than just political partisanship.

Yes... though I wish there were a recourse available beyond falling silent and watching sanity unravel... though I don't know what that might be.

Whatever it is, I think it would have to start small. And I see a couple of theories being proposed that start small and look like potential hope (although always long term). I can't image anything working quickly unless those already in the influential battle take it up and most of those seem to be preoccupied by their current aims.

[Sculptor]

In a land with 5 million, and great social care and welfare, you can continue to rest easy.

You might have said the same about sweden... but they too have fallen prey to this phenomena.

Have they?
Nothing like the US and UK.
I wonder if Sweden says the same about Norway and that Norway says the same about Denmark?
Most of this entire problem is about perception; mostly YOUR personal perception and the types of media you personally access.

You paint this thing as entirely a consequence of material wealth and it's privation, which may be part of the story...
but that view seems blind to the role of ideas and ideologies and just what degree of mad work can be done in their service.

Increasing poverty tends to make people look for scapegoats, and when the media are happy to supply them shit happens.
So not JUST about material wealth. Media is all important.

I wish I could believe things were as simple as you portray them... because then I could rest easy and the solution would be obvious.

There is an innate tendancy to group think. If there was a media willing to promote "humanity" in some joint cause, then the possibilities for a solution could be great.
Even a littl girl called Greta can mobilise more power than Trump. So what are you scared of?

In this era, more so than any other, we are subjected to unvetted ideas and ideologies, while many of the safeguards against them running rampant no longer function
The disciplines and institutions that were once a bulwark against the worst excesses are failing us for various reasons, not least of which is for their own survival in this new landscape.

The push for small government is an ideology worth challenging.
Look how poorly Texas is dealing with a bit of snow; how completely useless the UK and the US have been tackling COVID. All attributable to small government.
Small government; individualisation; small minded ness - recipes for disaster. ANd a nod to tribalism to replace the centre.
[quote]
The signal to noise ratio is impenetrable and the landscape competitive... everyone baits their hooks with hyperbolic language or literal falsehoods to even exist.

[Mad Man P]

_
Partisanship means more than just political partisanship.

You are correct, sir... I merely am not accustomed to hearing it used outside a political context, so felt the need to offer that correction.

[obsrvr524]

Increasing poverty tends to make people look for scapegoats, and when the media are happy to supply them shit happens.

Fear and stress make people look for scapegoats (poor or wealthy). - Create a lot of hyper-tension - and point at Mr Trump.

[Mad Man P]

You might have said the same about sweden... but they too have fallen prey to this phenomena.

Have they?
Nothing like the US and UK.

Yes, though you are correct, it's not yet nearly as bad.

Increasing poverty tends to make people look for scapegoats, and when the media are happy to supply them shit happens.
So not JUST about material wealth. Media is all important.

Boredom and aimlessness also lend themselves to being given a purpose or cause to fight for, just to feel like you matter.
A problem that plagues those who have it too easy... a first world problem, one might call it

There is an innate tendancy to group think. If there was a media willing to promote "humanity" in some joint cause, then the possibilities for a solution could be great.
Even a littl girl called Greta can mobilise more power than Trump. So what are you scared of?

Needless human misery

The push for small government is an ideology worth challenging.

In some areas certainly, in others not so much... too complex a shape to merely refer to it as small or large.

[obsrvr524]

Boredom and aimlessness also lend themselves to being given a purpose or cause to fight for, just to feel like you matter.
A problem that plagues those who have it too easy... a first world problem, one might call it

I certainly think you have that one right.

Realize that Egypt and Rome fell for this very same hyper-partisanship problem. Christianity was formed specifically to counter it - "forgive and love your neighbor". But trying to tie down the Devil isn't easy.

James here proposed a solution that appears to get around the problem but starts very small. Get someone like James involved in a big labor union (much larger than he wanted but a place to start) and this whole thing could get resolved pretty quickly - and probably permanently.

[WendyDarling]

Boredom and aimlessness also lend themselves to being given a purpose or cause to fight for, just to feel like you matter.
A problem that plagues those who have it too easy... a first world problem, one might call it

I certainly think you have that one right.

Realize that Egypt and Rome fell for this very same hyper-partisanship problem. Christianity was formed specifically to counter it - "forgive and love your neighbor". But trying to tie down the Devil isn't easy.

James here proposed a solution that appears to get around the problem but starts very small. Get someone like James involved in a big labor union (much larger than he wanted but a place to start) and this whole thing could get resolved pretty quickly - and probably permanently.

You really think that you put a small group of the insane, lefties, together and they will overcome their insanity? Stop not only denying reality, but refrain from concocting lies about it? For a change, they’ll look at the data and realize less than twenty unarmed black men are killed by police during 60,000,000 (60 million) interactions each year rather than burning down cities as if police have attempted to murder every black man they have encountered? They’ll stop treating the police as the criminals and start treating the criminals as the criminals? Hah!

[WendyDarling]

In a land with 5 million, and great social care and welfare, you can continue to rest easy.

You might have said the same about sweden... but they too have fallen prey to this phenomena.
You paint this thing as entirely a consequence of material wealth and it's privation, which may be part of the story...
but that view seems blind to the role of ideas and ideologies and just what degree of mad work can be done in their service.

I wish I could believe things were as simple as you portray them... because then I could rest easy and the solution would be obvious.
In this era, more so than any other, we are subjected to unvetted ideas and ideologies, while many of the safeguards against them running rampant no longer function
The disciplines and institutions that were once a bulwark against the worst excesses are failing us for various reasons, not least of which is for their own survival in this new landscape.
The signal to noise ratio is impenetrable and the landscape competitive... everyone baits their hooks with hyperbolic language or literal falsehoods to even exist.

A whole host of things are changing all at once... and we're in a period of adaptation.
It's too complex for me.. I can't see the pattern so it's hard to tell where the dominoes will fall…

What worries me the most though, is that entering a new landscape requires us at our best to make sure we don't take some catastrophic step in this new world we've made for ourselves.

And yet here we are having lost our collective minds. Though the world has never been this complex, everyone is filled with absolute certitude about what needs doing and how things work.
A near religious fervor is mustered for simple solutions to complex problems... If we but did this or that, we'd live in paradise… and when you believe that, anyone standing in your way is automatically a villain and the very reason the world is shitty.

Of course the tribals will say their victory would usher in a new utopia or bring back a lost one and so their hopes are tied up in winning this war...

But for those of us who are watching this insanity unfold from afar... it seems clear that this war, like most others, cannot produce winners... it will only produce loss.
History is not clear to those living through it, the answer might be right around the corner and quite obvious... but at the moment, I can't see it.

Much the same as Wendy - "Specifically what are you calling 'tribalism'"?

Group loyalties that make "others" of your neighbors...

As an American patriot, this war is between reality supporters and reality deniers. The left deny reality.

That is a near perfect example... the other "tribe" spins similar yarns about who you are and which parts of reality you deny.
A god damn semantic disagreement about how words ought be defined has become a psychosis for both sides.
While you, rightly i might add, point out that trans-women being allowed to compete in women's sports is insane...
They paint you with a similar brush in denying there is such a thing as gender-dysphoria that is best treated (given our current understanding of it) with some social acquiescence and compassion.

Now that is no more an accurate portrayal of you than yours is of "them"... but tribes paint each other by their worst members... so you gotta ask is there no one on the right who might believe cooky shit?
Cuz if there are... then it ought be fair game to paint everyone on the right with that brush.
Just as you did.

That's the tribal part... if one of "yours" commits a wrong, your tribe is guilty.
So you get real good at defending each other and turning a blind eye to your own tribes shortcomings and focus on your common enemy...
While they do the same to you.

They bring up racism and police misconduct, you bring up trans and sports, then they bring up inhumane treatment of people at the border, so you change the topic to cancel culture...
This is a sad and familiar song and dance... I don't even pay that much attention to what goes on over there and yet even I have heard this fucking tune enough that I can hum it in my sleep.

If everyone were to shed that tribalism, you might find you have many allies on the left, who agree it's insane to allow trans-women to compete with women.
And they have many allies on the right who think racism as well as police misconduct are problems that ought be dealt with...

Just two examples

But hey... fuck me, what do I know?

The data does not support the left’s insane claims(about immigration horrors, racist/murderous cops, inequal laws, none of it) but reality does support the rights. Yeah, Sweden’s screwed, full of insane but politically correct leftists who opened her borders to foreigners who will not assimilate but will assume government positions in the next generation to implement laws more akin to Sharia laws. You can look to the UK to see how that is going since they are farther along in their hospitality. Are those grooming gangs still raping white Swedes like they do in Britain and the Swedish media/government conspiring to hide that like they do in Britain?

[WendyDarling]

Boredom and aimlessness also lend themselves to being given a purpose or cause to fight for, just to feel like you matter.
A problem that plagues those who have it too easy... a first world problem, one might call it

I certainly think you have that one right.

Realize that Egypt and Rome fell for this very same hyper-partisanship problem. Christianity was formed specifically to counter it - "forgive and love your neighbor". But trying to tie down the Devil isn't easy.

James here proposed a solution that appears to get around the problem but starts very small. Get someone like James involved in a big labor union (much larger than he wanted but a place to start) and this whole thing could get resolved pretty quickly - and probably permanently.

The elites must stir the first world pots and the lefties eat their lies up. Once the West is destroyed by indoctrinating their youth to believe only the elites’ lies, then the elites will be unstoppable. Climate change is the other lie being used to turn the first world countries into third world countries which will be more manageable for the elites, reliable energy and meat bad, GMOs and rations of electric good. None of these climate alarmists are not hypocritical, not one and none are honest either. Climate change happens in cycles naturally and humans are not powerful enough to override Mother Nature yet only our hubris is that powerful.

To you, this all may be only a culture war but to me it’s sanity against insanity.

[Sculptor]

You might have said the same about sweden... but they too have fallen prey to this phenomena.

Have they?
Nothing like the US and UK.

Yes, though you are correct, it's not yet nearly as bad.

Increasing poverty tends to make people look for scapegoats, and when the media are happy to supply them shit happens.
So not JUST about material wealth. Media is all important.

Boredom and aimlessness also lend themselves to being given a purpose or cause to fight for, just to feel like you matter.
A problem that plagues those who have it too easy... a first world problem, one might call it

There is an innate tendancy to group think. If there was a media willing to promote "humanity" in some joint cause, then the possibilities for a solution could be great.
Even a littl girl called Greta can mobilise more power than Trump. So what are you scared of?

Needless human misery

The push for small government is an ideology worth challenging.

In some areas certainly, in others not so much... too complex a shape to merely refer to it as small or large.

Lack of participation is the cause of governments doing shit they ought not do. But the myth "government is bad" creates less particpation not more. So the people really in control use the mantra boig government is bad as a way of creatting more power for themselves as more and more people are disenfranchised and refuse to participate.
This is how democracy dies and tyrrany takes over.

[obsrvr524]

Boredom and aimlessness also lend themselves to being given a purpose or cause to fight for, just to feel like you matter.
A problem that plagues those who have it too easy... a first world problem, one might call it

I certainly think you have that one right.

Realize that Egypt and Rome fell for this very same hyper-partisanship problem. Christianity was formed specifically to counter it - "forgive and love your neighbor". But trying to tie down the Devil isn't easy.

James here proposed a solution that appears to get around the problem but starts very small. Get someone like James involved in a big labor union (much larger than he wanted but a place to start) and this whole thing could get resolved pretty quickly - and probably permanently.

You really think that you put a small group of the insane, lefties, together and they will overcome their insanity? Stop not only denying reality, but refrain from concocting lies about it? For a change, they’ll look at the data and realize less than twenty unarmed black men are killed by police during 60,000,000 (60 million) interactions each year rather than burning down cities as if police have attempted to murder every black man they have encountered? They’ll stop treating the police as the criminals and start treating the criminals as the criminals? Hah!

Who said anything about putting a small group of lefties together? Lefties only do what the globalists tell them to do.

[Sculptor]

I certainly think you have that one right.

Realize that Egypt and Rome fell for this very same hyper-partisanship problem. Christianity was formed specifically to counter it - "forgive and love your neighbor". But trying to tie down the Devil isn't easy.

James here proposed a solution that appears to get around the problem but starts very small. Get someone like James involved in a big labor union (much larger than he wanted but a place to start) and this whole thing could get resolved pretty quickly - and probably permanently.

You really think that you put a small group of the insane, lefties, together and they will overcome their insanity? Stop not only denying reality, but refrain from concocting lies about it? For a change, they’ll look at the data and realize less than twenty unarmed black men are killed by police during 60,000,000 (60 million) interactions each year rather than burning down cities as if police have attempted to murder every black man they have encountered? They’ll stop treating the police as the criminals and start treating the criminals as the criminals? Hah!

Who said anything about putting a small group of lefties together? Lefties only do what the globalists tell them to do.

you two should get a room.

[WendyDarling]

Boredom and aimlessness also lend themselves to being given a purpose or cause to fight for, just to feel like you matter.
A problem that plagues those who have it too easy... a first world problem, one might call it

I certainly think you have that one right.

Realize that Egypt and Rome fell for this very same hyper-partisanship problem. Christianity was formed specifically to counter it - "forgive and love your neighbor". But trying to tie down the Devil isn't easy.

James here proposed a solution that appears to get around the problem but starts very small. Get someone like James involved in a big labor union (much larger than he wanted but a place to start) and this whole thing could get resolved pretty quickly - and probably permanently.

You really think that you put a small group of the insane, lefties, together and they will overcome their insanity? Stop not only denying reality, but refrain from concocting lies about it? For a change, they’ll look at the data and realize less than twenty unarmed black men are killed by police during 60,000,000 (60 million) interactions each year rather than burning down cities as if police have attempted to murder every black man they have encountered? They’ll stop treating the police as the criminals and start treating the criminals as the criminals? Hah!

Who said anything about putting a small group of lefties together? Lefties only do what the globalists tell them to do.[/quote]

Nobody who’s sane cares to group with them, but you can prove me wrong by volunteering to group with Sculptor, Biggie, Peter Kropotkin, and Mr Reasonable, your distant neighbors. SAM Coop that. Good luck and may God protect you!

See their logic, big government = less corruption? Millions of corrupt officials equals less tyranny. Why? Because there’s only one person to blame. Oh no, that’s my logic for small government.

[obsrvr524]

Nobody who’s sane cares to group with them, but you can prove me wrong by volunteering to group with Sculptor, Biggie, Peter Kropotkin, and Mr Reasonable, your distant neighbors. SAM Coop that. Good luck and may God protect you!

See their logic, big government = less corruption? Millions of corrupt officials equals less tyranny. Why? Because there’s only one person to blame. Oh no, that’s my logic for small government.

I think you are misunderstanding what James' SAM Co-op is. He didn't propose it as something to institute over the US all at once. He explicitly stated that it would have to begin with only a small (experimental) group that he expected to first succeed and then be voluntarily adopted by other interested parties such that eventually - eventually the whole nation could be converted into a much more grand form of democracy through the "monkey see - monkey do" characteristic.

I agree that no one sane would expect Lefties to do anything other than what the globalists direct them to do. But that has nothing to do with James' SAM Co-op. Those people were proposed to be slowly displaced.

I am thinking that a large labor union could take a similar route by becoming a constitutional organization - similar to the USA Congress and US State congresses. It only makes since that all large groups involved in making decisions for their members should follow that same basic constitution. The SAM Co-op was basically that same thing - it only makes sense. I am just thinking that it could be applied to an existing large union and much more quickly be replicated - assuming it worked as proposed.

[Magnus Anderson]

I think you are misunderstanding what James' SAM Co-op is. He didn't propose it as something to institute over the US all at once. He explicitly stated that it would have to begin with only a small (experimental) group that he expected to first succeed and then be voluntarily adopted by other interested parties such that eventually - eventually the whole nation could be converted into a much more grand form of democracy through the "monkey see - monkey do" characteristic.

That's true. Beside that, SAM cooperatives are made out of likeminded individuals. You and Sculptor are the polar opposites.