the free speech big lie...

[Urwrongx1000]

polishyouth

#1 You are a disgrace to Poland.

#2 We already have one stark-raving mad lunatic on this forum, Ecmandu, we don't need two.

Bye bye.

[Urwrongx1000]

[polishyouthgotipbanned]

polishyouth

#1 You are a disgrace to Poland.

#2 We already have one stark-raving mad lunatic on this forum, Ecmandu, we don't need two.

Bye bye.

what the fuck do you know about Poland you clown...I quit anyway...hehe
bored of lowering myself to a level of an insane and uneducated loonies
want to discipline myself to raise to a level of respectable
academic
which requires more reading and thinking
and less time fighting idiot windmills
whacha think clown?
want me to do a little quiz on Polish and Central EasternEuropean history???

[Mr Reasonable]

is there such a quiz?

[Magnus Anderson]

bored of lowering myself to a level of an insane and uneducated loonies
want to discipline myself to raise to a level of respectable
academic
which requires more reading and thinking
and less time fighting idiot windmills

Actually, what you've been doing here on this forum is way way beneath the level of every other forum poster. But in your mind, I am sure, you think you are merely matching what everyone else is doing.

I wouldn't make the same mistake that Urwrongx1000 is making and compare you to Ecmandu because Ecmandu is actually considerably more cooperative than you are.

[obsrvr524]

I don't think that had very much to do with anything Biden is doing. It is the international coalitions saying to Twitter that if you are going to do that to major political figures, especially the US President, yet not to public terrorist organizations then we are going to consider Twitter to be a WMD and act accordingly.

There is only so much of this "I am god" dung that they will put up with.

[MagsJ]

So many Facebook accounts kept getting suspended here, simply for voicing a Conservative narrative that the Facebook police obviously didn’t like. They weren’t strong a narrative, so just disliked by Facebook, it seems.

Twitter is equally contemptible in the way it deals with its subscribers, in calling them liars and not resolving issues that have been raised to be looked into and resolved i.e. they don’t give a shit.

You truly really are unaware of many aspects of reality, aren’t you, Mr Logic unaware.

can you give some examples? twitter will suspend accounts that incite violence, and they will flag posts from public figures that contain misinformation....but i don't think they are widely banning conservatives. just go there and search #maga and see for yourself.

Here, in the UK, numerous Conservative Facebook profiles and groups kept getting repeatedly suspended because Facebook simply didn’t like the tone of the posts, and not because they were inciting anything, spreading misinformation, or racist etc. I witnessed this first hand and have no need to lie.

We didn’t even have any elections coming up lol, and our posts and Conservative message are tame compared to the US’.

Twitter is more forgiving with us than Facebook is, as I’ve not heard anybody mention suspensions or bans (yet), but they have zero customer service skills and don’t look into things like hacked accounts etc., of which I have first hand knowledge of.

[MagsJ]

I’ve come across aggy Euro types here before, both male and female,
they get a wake-up call soon enough, when they tread on one-too-many toes.

Some Europeans have a chip on their shoulder more than others, but that’s no-one’s fault.

shut your face you hypocritical twit...stop being a racist twit, your racist twit.i am not a simpleton racist and dont have any white supremacist loonie conspiracies but.... everybody knows whites are the most desirable race(at least cosmetically) and both blacks and Asians want to date males...and they convince themselves its because of RACISM AND CULTURE...whilst everybody honest and sane knows that whites have on average the most beauty and the best balance between animalism and sophistication and restraint(though not as much as neo-nazi cretins claim nor is it that big of an advantage as seen on the Chinese case right now).

What I said has nothing to do with racism, as Brits in general (regardless of ethnicity/colour) have mentioned likewise.

I think some Caribbeans give Caribbean-Brits a bad rap, and as for dating.. I am neither full Anglo, nor full South-Asian, or full Caribbean, so I don’t involve myself in the colour game and I certainly don’t dislike others due to their ethnicity/colour, but due to personality/how they treat others etc.

[polishyouthgotipbanned]

I’ve come across aggy Euro types here before, both male and female,
they get a wake-up call soon enough, when they tread on one-too-many toes.

Some Europeans have a chip on their shoulder more than others, but that’s no-one’s fault.

shut your face you hypocritical twit...stop being a racist twit, your racist twit.i am not a simpleton racist and dont have any white supremacist loonie conspiracies but.... everybody knows whites are the most desirable race(at least cosmetically) and both blacks and Asians want to date males...and they convince themselves its because of RACISM AND CULTURE...whilst everybody honest and sane knows that whites have on average the most beauty and the best balance between animalism and sophistication and restraint(though not as much as neo-nazi cretins claim nor is it that big of an advantage as seen on the Chinese case right now).

What I said has nothing to do with racism, as Brits in general (regardless of ethnicity/colour) have mentioned likewise.

I think some Caribbeans give Caribbean-Brits a bad rap, and as for dating.. I am neither full Anglo, nor full South-Asian, or full Caribbean, so I don’t involve myself in the colour game and I certainly don’t dislike others due to their ethnicity/colour, but due to personality/how they treat others etc.

There is no such thing as Caribbean-Brit...there are only Brits...as there are no Afro-Americans, only Americans or no Canadian-Greeks or pagan-neo-nazi 'Americans' or other deluded fantasies and everything else is neo-liberal delusion and capitalistic propaganda that is nearing its end. For example...a negro American will always see(AND COMPLETELY RIGHTFULLY!!!)a descendant of his enslaver and an inheritor of his SUPERIOR civilisation in a Caucasian white American...there can be no synchronisation there...and will never be because nations grow out of tribes and tribes consist of a: shared language, shared land and shared HISTORY; without these 3, THERE CAN NEVER BE A UNITED TRIBE and the Western negro or a western mulatto like you does not share the history and does not share land with the reset of the white Brits. The coloured colonial Brits have their own conflicting historical identity and their own land on their islands just the same way as the white Brits have their own conflicting historical identity and their own land on their own British Isles... I am not a racist and I dislike racism but these are the practical and unavoidable facts...you step out of the big cities in the South of England and white Brits simply don't want negros around and don't trust them nor perceive them as one of their own because humans patriotic tendency springs out of the deeper tribal tendency that has its mechanistic limitations that can't be overcome because they are deeply embedded in the homo-homo sapiens nature just like evil or a sexual drive is...

[polishyouthgotipbanned]

The invention of a race mixed mulatto is a phenomenon that is completely alien and no more than two or three generations old...your history is not a bit black, a bit white, a bit this or that...your identity begins with your birth and is tied exclusively to the existence of the neo-liberal, quasi-communist Western experiment and will expire with it with, unfortunately, very dire consequences for peoples such as yourself or we will see a new Communist dictatorship which will institutionally stifle peoples homophobic and exclusionist tendencies, but just like the neo-nazi fantasies, communist fantasies are always destined to fall and they will always do.

[MagsJ]

_
My South-Asian Gran met my Carib/Anglo Grandad in the Caribbean, and had my dad and his siblings, so nothing to do with any Western experiments.

My part South-Asian/French-Norman-Anglo/Carib mum, met my dad in London, and had me and my siblings, so again.. nothing to do with any Western experiments.

European sailors and other workers stayed on the island and inter-married with the local demographic rather than go back to Europe, because they had nothing to go back to. There was no experiment, but simply a chain of events that occurred. Same with the Indians.. they refused to toil in the plantations, so worked in Trade and Finance etc. instead, and inter-married also.

The other islands do have different histories though, and each islands’ history is unique to them, so that is the history of mine. It is one of the most fought-over countries in the world due to its location, and was the home of Napoleon et al for many years, until the British signed a deal with the locals.

The males here are totally cool with me, but the females tend to be overly territorial.. for no reason at all, and it’s not like they can realistically shag all the men in town by themselves, but I’m sure some try lol.

Are you Pedro by any chance?

[polishyouthgotipbanned]

_
My South-Asian Gran met my Carib/Anglo Grandad in the Caribbean, and had my dad and his siblings, so nothing to do with any Western experiments.

My part South-Asian/French-Norman-Anglo/Carib mum, met my dad in London, and had me and my siblings, so again.. nothing to do with any Western experiments.

European sailors and other workers stayed on the island and inter-married with the local demographic rather than go back to Europe, because they had nothing to go back to. There was no experiment, but simply a chain of events that occurred. Same with the Indians.. they refused to toil in the plantations, so worked in Trade and Finance etc. instead, and inter-married also.

The other islands do have different histories though, and each islands’ history is unique to them, so that is the history of mine. It is one of the most fought-over countries in the world due to its location, and was the home of Napoleon et al for many years, until the British signed a deal with the locals.

The males here are totally cool with me, but the females tend to be overly territorial.. for no reason at all, and it’s not like they can realistically shag all the men in town by themselves, but I’m sure some try lol.

Are you Pedro by any chance?

I did not say your are an experiment...I dont use that kind of language...when you can call things what they are you should and not harp and borrow unproductively from bizarre or technical vocabularies to make your pretentious and imbecilic dribble seem impressive nor did I say a person of your racial make-up can't be assimilated into a nation-tribe of any Western or white society. The experiment is literal and refers to the social experiment that began in 1910s in America with Freud and Dewey and refers to pretending human-nature is something it is not and constructing governmental interventions to support that delusion; one of these delusions is that you can eradicate racism or homophobia without a dictatorship...or that the racial group of people who less than 200 years ago were traded as slaves and were a property of white Anglos will now simply assimilate and not create its own independent and conflicting identity whilst half the political spectrum preys and exacerbates its feelings of racial separatism and hatred and treats the working class as donkeys in general past 1970s Reagan neo-liberal revolution...and so on and on... to rephrase myself...individuals of any race or any culture can be assimilated into any Western nation but groups can't, not because it is impossible in principle but because it is impossible in practice and especially impossible in democracies as history evidently shows that the more totalitarian the state THE MORE RACIAL AND CULTURAL DIVERSITY it can handle, and the more free a state, THE LESS.

[polishyouthgotipbanned]

The fall of the American star is a great tragedy for the West...despite what the loonies claim...they are stupid and arrogant and think they are important because they never leave their basements and when they do they dont engage with the real world at all... hiding in America or Canada, sitting safely on their asses as opportunistic immigrants they are telling the Europe what it ought or ought not do...a Canadian-Greek self-declared expert is all of a sudden qualified to lecture on what Central Europe needs and does not need after living on his ass in Toronto or whatever cucked shithouse he simps in...without America, what can Europe do???look the the Greek Aryans for ideas???look at the swelling Asia and its hordes of humans...look at China...who will stand up to such an enormous monstrosity???the autistic virgin neo-nazis with knowthyself???sad spectacle but this is a wider and deeper process...look at Jordan Peterson, look at the Anglo churches, look at its politics...Anglo-sphere is tragically sinking and with it any prospect of Western world dominance...I weep and so do European loyalists everywhere but in the 90 IQ neo-nazi circles...who cares???

[MagsJ]

There is no such thing as Caribbean-Brit...there are only Brits...as there are no Afro-Americans, only Americans or no Canadian-Greeks or pagan-neo-nazi 'Americans' or other deluded fantasies and everything else is neo-liberal delusion and capitalistic propaganda that is nearing its end. For example...a negro American will always see(AND COMPLETELY RIGHTFULLY!!!)a descendant of his enslaver and an inheritor of his SUPERIOR civilisation in a Caucasian white American...there can be no synchronisation there...and will never be because nations grow out of tribes and tribes consist of a: shared language, shared land and shared HISTORY; without these 3, THERE CAN NEVER BE A UNITED TRIBE and the Western negro or a western mulatto like you does not share the history and does not share land with the reset of the white Brits.

Not land, sure.. as my parents came here in the 60s, but a shared European history.. yes, as my mother’s maiden name actually means English so of Engleland, and she grew up in the Western tradition of her European side.. convent-school educated, born into Roman Catholicism etc. Her surname opened doors for her here, and my dad’s looks opened doors for him. though his grand-parents left India in the 1920s, to work for the East India Company, and were flown out of their hometown to the port when his mother was only 2.

Call me tri-racial or Hybrid, not mulatto.. that’s so passé, I’d even prefer be called red skin.. yea hybrid sounds cool, and makes me sound like a machine or something..

Why does the rest of the world think that all Caribbeans are born into and/or, of slavery? even many African-Caribbeans were never enslaved, due to escaping their captors and so remaining free men. The Caribs out-right refused to be enslaved, and so all but the weak ones worked for themselves, as farmers and agriculturalists and were left to their own devices by the warring Europeans who were fighting over the islands.

The coloured colonial Brits have their own conflicting historical identity and their own land on their islands just the same way as the white Brits have their own conflicting historical identity and their own land on their own British Isles... I am not a racist and I dislike racism but these are the practical and unavoidable facts...you step out of the big cities in the South of England and white Brits simply don't want negros around and don't trust them nor perceive them as one of their own because humans patriotic tendency springs out of the deeper tribal tendency that has its mechanistic limitations that can't be overcome.

If you think so, but it is otherwise.. it’s only some of the British females that dislike me and my type and try to undermine us, but not the males. I went to Uni up North, and traveled the country when a Civil Servant.. and I was always adored, by all. I now sometimes travel the UK, for politics, and often want to stay because everyone’s so nice.. even when they find out I’m a Conservative.

One person’s reality is another’s ill-conceived idea, of what that person's reality is actually like. I’ll leave it there, as anything else would simply be boasting.. and that’s not really philosophy.

__
Re. the OP: The Left do always try and stifle the Right narrative, even if it’s day-to-day political information-sharing/business as usual stuff that all the Parties share, but what they did to Trump was something else/on a whole other level. Even my staunch-Left eldest sister, has seen through the divisiveness of what the Left, BLM, and Antifa have done in order to ensure they won this election.

What they did isn’t going down well abroad, and so then can the elected Party be trusted or want to be traded with etc? Facebook, Amazon, and WhatsApp.. amongst others, are being boycotted here, for less data-mining apps/to buy British.. as in the case of Amazon.

[polishyouthgotipbanned]

You are a dumb attention whore that is deluded and worst of all completely dishonest.

[polishyouthgotipbanned]

bored of lowering myself to a level of an insane and uneducated loonies
want to discipline myself to raise to a level of respectable
academic
which requires more reading and thinking
and less time fighting idiot windmills

Actually, what you've been doing here on this forum is way way beneath the level of every other forum poster. But in your mind, I am sure, you think you are merely matching what everyone else is doing.

I wouldn't make the same mistake that Urwrongx1000 is making and compare you to Ecmandu because Ecmandu is actually considerably more cooperative than you are.

Shut your mouth you autistic dimwit.

[MagsJ]

You are a dumb attention whore that is deluded and worst of all completely dishonest.

And you are definitely bi-polar, and need to see your doctor about it.

I suggest not exchanging words further.. ever.

[polishyouthgotipbanned]

i love ppl!!!

[polishyouthgotipbanned]

i love ppl !!!

[MagsJ]

_
To OP: The Left do always try and stifle the Right narrative, even if it’s day-to-day political information-sharing/business as usual stuff that all the Parties share with the public, but what they did to Trump was something else/on a whole other level. Even my staunch-Left eldest sister, has seen through the divisiveness of what the Left, BLM, and Antifa have done in order to ensure they won this election.

What they did isn’t going down well abroad, and so then can the elected Party be trusted or want to be traded with etc? Facebook, Amazon, and WhatsApp.. amongst others, are being boycotted here, for less data-mining apps/to buy British.. as in the case of Amazon.

[polishyouthgotipbanned]

_
To OP: The Left do always try and stifle the Right narrative, even if it’s day-to-day political information-sharing/business as usual stuff that all the Parties share with the public, but what they did to Trump was something else/on a whole other level. Even my staunch-Left eldest sister, has seen through the divisiveness of what the Left, BLM, and Antifa have done in order to ensure they won this election.

What they did isn’t going down well abroad, and so then can the elected Party be trusted or want to be traded with etc? Facebook, Amazon, and WhatsApp.. amongst others, are being boycotted here, for less data-mining apps/to buy British.. as in the case of Amazon.

i love ppl!!! you are too mature!!!always straight on topic AND NEVER WRITING AUTOBIOGRAPHIES LIKE LOONEY IDIOTS LIKE ME!!!well done!!!
I LOVE PPL!!!

[phoneutria]

the point is that there is a monopoly on communications
much like a power grid
or landlines
or railroads

cutting someone off AWS
can very well make it impractical or impossible for them to run a digital platform
alongside AWS, the number of companies owned by facebook and google is such
that they can damn near make someone disappear off the internet

this is a scary fucking precedent, dude
no matter how much you hate the guy
no person should be gagged like he was
in a free country
you don't want to talk about moral philosophy
but you have to acknowledge that this was wrong

Why is it wrong? Choose your adventure:

1. Because J.S. Mill. Mill thought that a free-market of ideas was the best way to get truth. (See below)
2. Because "freedom at all costs". (Even if it leads to anti-democracy and untruth, like how a pure capitalist becomes a monopolist? No, consequences matter. If your principle results in its opposite, that is a reductio of your principle).
3. Because regulation/censorship is bad. (But don't then make regulations to censor a private buisness).
4. Optional other. (What do you say?)

Back to Mill. He would assume that the population is educated and mature.
1. It's not. Look at urwrongx1000, fucking dumb as bricks. No disrespect. Plato wrote a story about urwrongx1000, and he was chained in a cave watching shadows. To urwrongx1000: Plato is a philosopher, you dumb sh_t.

More to the point, it is not true that a free market of ideas is the best way to get truth. Not in a courtroom, where standards of evidence apply. Not in a classroom, where the students don't do all the teaching. Not in a laboratory, where peer review doesn't mean "just anyone review". Not anywhere. Free speech, like most of your freedoms in actual practice, is earned---when it is really public speech (i.e., tv, news, radio, internet).

Unfortunately, market incentive and privatization made news into sensationalized propagandizers. Social media empires, on the other hand, pander to the lowest common denominator where the heirarchy of epistemic authority is flatlined. It is a free market of ideas, and now millions think the president is illegitimate, because they are the proper evaluators, (and Rudy Guiliani), and not people who are trained investigators. Well, that, and they're listening to someone who was lieing who happened to be the president.

all of the above
particularly two
and contest the notion that liberty leads to anti-democracy
as well as almost everything you said
people must be allowed to speak
even if what they are speaking is stupid
because if they don't
nobody will correct them
speaking is how we think

anyway
strongly recommend that you listen to the 30 min video i posted
about how freedom of speech is much more than just one value
so I don't have to type all that stuff down
also because it's fucking worth it
it's a beautifully condensed argument
and if I am to continue this conversation
i'd like to be under the light of that resource

I don't think it's inherently or absolutely wrong for some social media company to censor a government official, for spreading self-serving misinformation. That shit starts wars. In practice there are serious problems with doing so. But the moral discussion is about how, when, why, what consequences count... not a flat "never ever... totally wrong". What is your justification of that?

About Trump in particular and the actual context... it sounds like being a fucking cry-baby. Build a fucking wix.com website. Even a billionaire could do it. Watch the commercials.

my flat never ever totally wrong justification
is that it is the most fundamental right of all individuals
as guaranteed by the constitution
and cemented in our culture
for as long as we have been aware of ourselves

whereas you seem to want the decision
to be at the hand of independent entities
with power to decide arbitrarily
and with no accountability

just shocked lately
to be witnessing a clear erosion of the most basic human right
being defended by intelligent people
it's the fucking dark ages

[von Rivers]

strongly recommend that you listen to the 30 min video i posted
about how freedom of speech is much more than just one value
so I don't have to type all that stuff down

I watched it, and to sum it up...
Peterson’s thesis in the video is that truthful speech is the foundation of habitable order. --Bedrock value in the hierarchical order of values. For support, he tells a story that jumps from chimpanzee troupes, to Piaget, to religious mythology in Mesopotamia, and elsewhere. So, I put on my Coherence Theory of Truth—where the truth of his thesis would be justified by how the pieces of his story fit together. And if the thesis cohered with his narrative, then he'd be justified in believing it.

Also, separately, he made an argument about free-speech. It goes like; “Thinking is hard, so allow people to be stupid/offensive, and then other people can correct them. Also, people like to be treated as capable of autonomous choice and free speech. Hence, free speech.” (The point being that free-speech gets us closer to truth, and/or makes society more stable).

My criticism: free speech and truthfulness are two different values, and Peterson equivocated about and conflated them. To see the difference, I can completely agree that truthful speech is the bedrock of habitable order… and then use that as my justification for banning/silencing the free-speech of the President. (E.g., The President was lying from a privileged epistemic position of authority. —And it nearly tore apart habitable order. There are such positions of trust and authority (e.g., doctor, police, teacher, lawyer, accountant), for which it is especially reprehensible to spread misinformation, and given their epistemic position, can actually fragment society. (You may add to this that the President had extraordinary access to intelligence, Justice Department, etc, and still lied about it, which is worse than an ordinary citizen simply being wrong or incorrect, and unwilling to justify himself in any venue or court).

So, Peterson’s narrative does not support that free-speech is a bedrock value. —IOW, free-speech is not what keeps together chimpanzee troupes, or the underlying factor in religious harmony (that's actually farcical), or even the commonality in children’s games. And, Peterson’s separate argument only makes it just a means to truthful speech, or just truth. (Just like John Stuart Mill).

But let me be charitable and re-interpret what he is saying…

People want to matter. People need to feel like their voices are heard. No society (chimpanzee troupe, kid’s game, religious body) will be stable unless people feel like they have skin in the game, or the ear of others, especially those in authority. So, free-speech is that thing, and it’s required.

Except, you do feel that your voice can be heard, in the way that matters, even with occasional limits on your freedom of speech. If I require that you speak truthfully, or don’t tarnish the humanity of others, or be quiet in places where you have nothing of value to offer, or don’t trespass on other’s privacy… you will still feel heard. (I mean, some people will never feel heard unless they can drop f-bombs in a courtroom while reading their flat-earth poetry that they wrote in some random stranger's murder trial… but that’s not a threat to “stable order”, just their free-speech).

Why does Peterson end his speech in the way that he does? Why does Peterson say that if you don’t believe in free-speech, you are a “totalitarian enemy of habitable order…and the divinity of mankind…and pursue endless suffering in a hell-scape” …who ends their argument like that? That’s hyperbole to shame and shut people up. Shouldn’t he thank them for contributing to a stable and habitable order?

people must be allowed to speak
even if what they are speaking is stupid
because if they don't
nobody will correct them

In most venues, there are limitations on who can speak, or how. I gave some examples. Almost everywhere has limitations like that, and you don’t mind.

and contest the notion that liberty leads to anti-democracy

The misinformation spread by Trump has led to people to deny the legitimacy of the current President, and the legitimacy of the election. Do you agree? That would be a case of liberty (i.e., freedom of speech to lie) leading to anti-democracy.

whereas you seem to want the decision
to be at the hand of independent entities
with power to decide arbitrarily
and with no accountability

I don’t think Twitter should be forced to keep him on their platform. I don’t think having to make your own webpage is a community-level denial of your free-speech. Is what what you call “the fucking dark ages”?


I have a deeper problem with what Peterson said. He thinks that when there is a conflict of values, they need to be hierarchically organized, such that one needs to be determined the bedrock for all times and places and contexts. —And that’s false, but a separate topic.