An illegitimate president either way

[d0rkyd00d]

One data point - what the highest ranking Republican in the U.S. Congress had to say about Congressional officials disputing the electoral votes today.

Deep State pawn.

[Mr Reasonable]

hEz A riNo!!!

[d0rkyd00d]

hEz A riNo!!!

Hey look at us, we're pretty good at this.

[Mr Reasonable]

DeERp StATe!!!

[Mr Reasonable]

hardcore trump supporters are like people who think that pro wrestling is kind of real a little

[gib]

My opinion Gibbles is that the Dems in the largest cities have always run shady operations, overseen by Dem governors and mayors but mail in ballots were called absentee ballots and used to account for only 4%-5% (I think) against 95% in person (supposedly) verified voters. The Dems want anybody to vote their way, alive, dead, citizen, illegal alien, doesn’t matter. And in the Dem state where I live, they did not check my drivers license or voter id. I could have said anybodies name and agreed with the address and scribbled any signature and I would be voting.

Yep, that's gotta change.

To avoid any fraud, these machines are not internet compatible but data storage devices only.

I gotta agree with Wendy, Sanjay. The issue isn't efficiency, it's transparency. In the US, and most Western states, we want to be able to verify everything--so that we know no one's cheating. Nobody knows what's going on inside those machines, and no one knows if they can trust the engineers and programmers who built those machines. Even if those machines are 100% uncorrupted and 1000 x more efficient than counting paper ballots, the breakdown of the system is gonna come from people not trusting the machines. At least with paper ballots, everything is transparent.

And here's Jovan Pulitzer saying that you can hack into the machines wirelessly (at 43:45):



This guy's good--Robert Gruler of R&R Law Group--really breaks down what's going on into easy to understand terms, and seems relatively impartial (or at least is able to separate his commentary about the legal aspects of the topic from his own biased opinions, whatever they are).

gib,

ppl colloquially call a state democrat or republican if it has majority democrat or republican voters. but no one would say that that alone would determine how the courts lean in the state. that's why I asked for clarification. states have balances of power. sometimes it is not clear that one party controls the state. as i said, there's the voters, the legislature (state reps and the state senate), and the governor <-- Do you refer to this as an executive branch, or is the governor a one man crew?. all three contribute to the balance of power. voters can split their tickets. just because they vote for a republican governor doesn't mean that they'll vote for all the republican legislators or judges. this presidential election is the an excellent demonstration of that. several historically republican states voted for a democrat president and republican legislators. and i suppose it's possible that a state's political parties could be completely different from all other states and not mirror federal politics but that doesn't happen to be the case. states do vary on how they select judges, but it is some combination of voters, legislators, and governors selecting them.

let's look at Georgia. historically republican voter majority, for over 20 years. republicans control the state house, the state senate, and the governor is a republican. most are very vocal trump supporters. the top election officials in Georgia are public about their support for trump. this election however, the majority of voters voted for a democrat for president. first time in a long time. there were even 2 or 3 recounts, an audit, etc. the result stood. yet trump is still claiming election fraud and is now not so subtly threatening republican officials in Georgia if they don't "find 11,000" votes for him.

all of team trump's claims of election fraud are directed at those particular states. why? they weren't all democrat controlled. they weren't the only states which could have had voter fraud. every state could be endlessly questioned and could be challenged in court but they only went after the ones where they thought they had a chance of changing the outcome. you're free to look into the claims yourself and ask yourself why only target those states. but it wasn't because they were all democrat controlled.

So it sounds like some variant of my earlier theory is correct:

I'm also wondering: is this the way it has always been, just that this time light has been shed on the corruption in the election process? Trump has been known to be hell bent on exposing the left wing media as fake news, the first president I've heard of to be putting this much effort into such an endeavor. Maybe this is part of that effort. Maybe if Trump were a Democrat, we'd be calling Fox News "fake news" and we'd be seeing election corruption in Republican states. In other words, maybe there's corruption in every state--always has been--but Trump is exposing the corruption in key Democratic states.

I agree with you that the court decisions more reflect the way trump and ppl approached their litigation, and that's why I made clear that the point I was making in this thread wasn't to say that the court decisions alone prove that none of trump's fraud claims could be true. however, as a separate matter, I do believe Trump's claims are virtually all bs. have I debunked every single claim that someone has thrown out there in the past 2 months? of course not. but many have and I spent a non-trivial amount of time looking into various issues. it's an informed opinion.

this election wasn't that much different from previous elections imo, regarding voting and counting votes. mail in ballots were more prevalent this year, but they've always been a significant method of voting. Really? I thought they were new? I thought mail in ballots were previously illegal because of how much fraud they could introduce. could election processes in general be even more secure, yeah they could. but i don't think the issues are anywhere near as prevalent or as significant as what is being claimed. yes, we'd have to discuss specifics here. let me be clear i'm just stating my opinions so you know where i'm coming from. Same here. i don't intend to spend time debating fraud claims here. Yeah, that wouldn't be fun. maybe someone else wants to. i just don't have the time for that, and ilp isn't a bastion of good faith discussion at the moment.

Was it ever?

i can say that this election definitely was not business as usual. Your previous paragraph says otherwise. it's my opinion that Trump was grasping for whatever claims he could plausibly make to challenge the results, and that of the group of republicans supporting him I think many are doing so cynically, as a political move. to clarify, i'm not making an argument here, just letting you know where i stand if you're interested.

I value your opinion, fuse, and I respect your desire not to get into the nitty-gritty of voter fraud claims (though we could talk about voter fraud more generally--its effects on a nation, the morality of it, etc.). As a matter of fact, you've answered an itching question that I've wanted to know since my Reforming Democracy thread, a question I asked in the thread and no one answered: Are state governments modeled after the federal government, and is it stipulated as such in the constitution. I guess they are but not strictly because it's stipulated in the constitution.

And I've been looking for a liberal (won't call you a leftist) who's half ass educated and knows a thing or two about what he's talking about. Don't know you that well, fuse, but you seem to fit the bill from your last two posts.

[Urwrongx1000]

We reversed engineered the mathematical algorithms.

There is 100% certainty this election was defrauded, on a massive scale, knowingly, intentionally.

[Mr Reasonable]

We reversed engineered the mathematical algorithms.

There is 100% certainty this election was defrauded, on a massive scale, knowingly, intentionally.

show ur work

[Urwrongx1000]

i have 2 months of links and arguments, let me guess, u didnt read or watch anything did u? nope

[Mr Reasonable]

u cant just post a bunch of links bruh u have to explain urself wtf kind of shit do u think this is?

[Urwrongx1000]

o now ur asking 4 arguments? lol

[Mr Reasonable]

and u still not giving them

[Urwrongx1000]

we have the algorithm, u can look it up if u want 2 know, threw my last 2 months of posts, have fun

[Mr Reasonable]

we have the algorithm, u can look it up if u want 2 know, threw my last 2 months of posts, have fun

for a guy who seems to want to convince everyone of something you sure aren't trying very hard.

[Urwrongx1000]

2 months and now, all of a sudden, u want to look at what ive already said 100 times

how dishonest r u? rhetorical question, dont worry

[Mr Reasonable]

2 months and now, all of a sudden, u want to look at what ive already said 100 times

how dishonest r u? rhetorical question, dont worry

dude u cant just post links of autistic screeching i want u to explain to me why the states that have investigated theses claims and stated that there was no fraud big enough to swing the election are wrong.

[Urwrongx1000]

we have evidence and proof to reverse all the swing states

[d0rkyd00d]

we have evidence and proof to reverse all the swing states

The Kraken will be released January 19th!

[Mr Reasonable]

the far right is off the fucking deep end and normal republicans have abandoned them

[Urwrongx1000]

there are no more "normal republicans", u still dont understand wuts really happening ...yet

[gib]

So I guess you guys almost had an insurrection. It was pathetic really. A poor girl died! <-- That's all that was accomplished!

Watching the senate do the vote counting (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jnj2LSGb-a4) seems pretty convincing to me that however much fraud there was in this election, there wasn't enough to overturn the results. So Biden won fair and square (well, one of those terms--"fair" or "square"--may not be accurate--probably "square"). I don't like it. I was rooting for Trump, particularly so he could follow through with the peace deals he brokered in the Middle East, but c'est la vie. What's a few more decades of blood and death? If Georgia hadn't done that damn recount, you guys would have a Republican majority in the senate, which wouldn't have made the results that bad, but now with majority of Democrats and Harris residing as the president of the senate, woke culture will soon be law--probably through a constitutional amendment.

There may be insurrections yet, but not today.

[Zero_Sum]

DeERp StATe!!!

And I remember the days decrying the Koch Brothers conspiracies and so on by the left, it was like almost yesterday, oh wait, it was.

And then there's always the popular, the Russians are coming, the Russians are coming, and so on....

Herp-derp.

Before Obama the left would decry against the evil of capitalism, especially corporations, but then he bailed out the banks along with the corporations where the left went mysteriously silent without the slightest protest. Google getting rich off of working with the military and the C.I.A. or even the communist Chinese, but that started to not very much matter either because a lot of leftist ideologues got rich off it all donating much to the DNC.

I remember the left at one point being antiwar, but for whatever reason when Obama started bombing Syria, Libya, or other nations, again, mysterious silence. I guess if a virtue signaling black man bombs half the Middle East, it's acceptable? Strange..

Hmmm...

[Zero_Sum]

2) I see it being far more on the Left, just as Karl Marx suggested it be. The liberal is always the more willing to break the rules (by definition).

I agree with that. The left sees the entire system as corrupt. So from their point of view, it would be idiocy to work with the system in order to change the system to their liking. The only option, as they see it, is to break the system, and cheating is a surreptitious way of breaking the system from the inside.

They've already done that, started in the universities in the 1960s, then made its way into banking or finance, and then through credit and loans made its way into corporations. From the corporate sector eventually into politics/ cultural media and now throughout the whole entire government. 2021 is merely the final blow that has been going on for five decades, it's now or never for them. Thus the mad rush for power and control, their mistake however is the sheer volume of the population right now that sees right through them, overconfidence becomes its own weakness. Right now they're very overconfident blinded by their own power drunk off of it, should be a curious next month or less. Can't wait to see what happens next.

Anywho, in my area of the nation everybody is talking about civil war or their absolute hatred of the government right now, they try to mask their true feelings of course out of the facade of appropriate public behavior, but if you look deep inside their eyes you can see a fire emerging. I don't think the political establishment truly understands just how much of the population hates it right now especially here in flyover country. These are ordinary people also unlike me, people you would never think of openly talking about civil war or insurrection. I love it and can't get enough of it.

[Mr Reasonable]

an old man from alabama died in the riots after going there to participate in the insurrection and accidentally tazing himself in the nuts then having a heart attack

[d0rkyd00d]

General George Washington vs. General Donald J. Trump, ladies and gentlemen.