An illegitimate president either way

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Re: An illegitimate president either way

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:54 am

No, it hasn't always been this way. Trump is an outsider, anti-establishment. He is an existential threat to the corruption.

"Drain the Swamp" is not just a slogan.



Trump is the only legitimate president, either way.
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Re: An illegitimate president either way

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:13 am

gib wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:The rage isn't about Mr Trump. It is about such extreme corruption being exposed by Mr Trump.


I get that, but I'm wondering:

1) has it always been thus?

2) is it thus on both sides?

I can only make guesses about that -
1) I can't image any country not have SOME corruption, but I doubt that the US has ever been this bad - thank George Soros and the CCP for most of that.

2) I see it being far more on the Left, just as Karl Marx suggested it be. The liberal is always the more willing to break the rules (by definition).
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Re: An illegitimate president either way

Postby gib » Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:27 am

obsrvr524 wrote:2) I see it being far more on the Left, just as Karl Marx suggested it be. The liberal is always the more willing to break the rules (by definition).


I agree with that. The left sees the entire system as corrupt. So from their point of view, it would be idiocy to work with the system in order to change the system to their liking. The only option, as they see it, is to break the system, and cheating is a surreptitious way of breaking the system from the inside.
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Re: An illegitimate president either way

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:33 am

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Re: An illegitimate president either way

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:18 pm

If people believe these matters are going to be resolved in January... then you haven't been paying attention.

This is going to last for years to come.
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Re: An illegitimate president either way

Postby fuse » Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:30 am

gib wrote:
fuse wrote:For what it's worth, I'll post a link. This was the count two weeks ago, I think it's around 60 cases now. Brief summary of each case included.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-e ... s-n1248289


Aren't all these states Democratic? Isn't that the reason the election outcomes are in question? I don't know how your judicial system works, but in a Democratic states, is the judicial branch generally Democratic?

the answer to the first two questions is no. some of the states in question were thought of as Republican states before this election, others are consistently toss-ups from election to election. these state outcomes are in question because they were close races, Trump lost them, and he needed to win some of them to have a path to victory. on the last question, it depends on what you mean by "Democrat states" and a "Democrat judiciary." judges are picked in 3 different ways: elected by the people (voters) of a state, elected by the state legislature, or appointed by the governor. the people, the legislature, and the governor might all be dominated by the same political party or any combination of parties. so you might have a "blue" (majority Democrat voter) state with a Republican governor and Republican controlled legislature, and vice-versa. also most judges are elected/appointed with tenure for life, so a judge only gets elected/appointed if an existing one retires or passes, etc. the judiciary takes an oath to faithfully interpret the law. it's not designed to be political and in many states there is a history of non-partisan selection of judges. so i guess the answer is it depends, and i don't actually know how answer that. but looking at Trump's outcomes in the courts, both left and right-leaning judges ruled against his challenges. some were Trump's own appointees in the federal courts.
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Re: An illegitimate president either way

Postby d0rkyd00d » Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:27 am

I agree with that. The left sees the entire system as corrupt. So from their point of view, it would be idiocy to work with the system in order to change the system to their liking. The only option, as they see it, is to break the system, and cheating is a surreptitious way of breaking the system from the inside.



Ahem


Urwrongx1000 wrote:, it hasn't always been this way. Trump is an outsider, anti-establishment. He is an existential threat to the corruption.
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Re: An illegitimate president either way

Postby gib » Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:14 am

fuse wrote:the answer to the first two questions is no. some of the states in question were thought of as Republican states before this election, others are consistently toss-ups from election to election.


When I call a state Republican or Democrat, I mean it is governed by a Republican or Democratic office. This obviously can change from election to election, but during last year's election, who governed the contested states? Republicans or Democrats?

I also assume that whatever parties have a presence at the federal level also have a presence at the state level. But I would guess this is not enforced by your constitution. I would guess each state has a Democratic or Republican party only because voters in federal elections feel passionate about their choice and would like to have their preferred government, if not at the federal level, then at least at the state level. But a state could conceivably have no Republic or Democrat parties and instead have only local independent parties. Am I right?

fuse wrote:these state outcomes are in question because they were close races, Trump lost them, and he needed to win some of them to have a path to victory. Really? So election fraud had nothing to do with it? on the last question, it depends on what you mean by "Democrat states" and a "Democrat judiciary." judges are picked in 3 different ways: elected by the people (voters) of a state, elected by the state legislature, or appointed by the governor. the people, the legislature, and the governor might all be dominated by the same political party or any combination of parties. so you might have a "blue" (majority Democrat voter) <-- Ah, that's how you're defining it. state with a Republican governor and Republican controlled legislature, and vice-versa. But such a governor would have to be voted into office by a majority of Republican voters, no? also most judges are elected/appointed with tenure for life, so a judge only gets elected/appointed if an existing one retires or passes, etc. the judiciary takes an oath to faithfully interpret the law. it's not designed to be political and in many states there is a history of non-partisan selection of judges. so i guess the answer is it depends, and i don't actually know how answer that. Fair enough. Sounds like the judicial branch at the state level is a mish-mash of Republic, Democratic, and non-partisan officials. but looking at Trump's outcomes in the courts, both left and right-leaning judges ruled against his challenges. some were Trump's own appointees in the federal courts.


Follow-up question: Is this the rule for every state in the US? Or does the constitution allow them to decide for themselves how to structure themselves and what procedures to follow?

Having a slightly better understanding of the court cases on the election outcome, it sounds like each one is trying something very particular (extending the deadline for mail in ballots, denying inspectors the right to see the counting, Dominion machines skewing the data, etc.), and with a lack of standing (as I understand it, a lack of direct harm to the plaintiff) coupled with the futility in trying such cases with the objective of overturning the overall election results (for example, in Pennsylvania, they say Biden won by 81,000 votes and at most they could only overturn 10,000 votes in favor of Trump), I can see why so many cases are thrown out or denied.

However, I still think this says more about how Trump's team is fighting this battle and how much room they have to maneuver within the judicial system rather than the truth about the existence of election fraud. Because each case is trying something very particular, none of them are seeing the larger picture, which, if you take all the evidence being presented overall, really does seem like fraud. The public can see it even if the courts don't have the means to confirm it (that's not to say the entirety of election fraud was enough to swing the results--Biden might have won anyway).

In any case, even if Trump is fighting a losing battle, you guys still have to do something about your voting and election procedures. Obviously, it's not right to prevent inspectors from viewing the ballots and the counting thereof. I would hope in future elections, something is done to prevent that. Get rid of mail in ballots and never, never, never use machines!!! With the Dems in power, it's gonna be all the more difficult to do that, and if they have their way, it's gonna be election fraud from here on in--orders of magnitude higher than what we've seen this time around. Good bye Republican party. Good bye two-party system. Good bye America. Hello communism.

Another consideration I've been pondering is: is this business as usual? Last time there was an election in your country, I was too stoned to care. I've only gotten this interested in politics (American politics of all things... ugh!) since quitting drugs. I wonder if I hadn't been doing drugs in 2016, would I have been following current affairs as closely, and would I have known about accusations and conspiracy theories surrounding election fraud just as prevalent. If I would have, I can breathe a sigh of relief. It means this is business as usual.
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Re: An illegitimate president either way

Postby Mr Reasonable » Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:25 am

bruh u r the only mf in the world that can look at a dude wearing that green hat and be like yes thats my guy hes the one who knows the real truth no one else does
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Re: An illegitimate president either way

Postby WendyDarling » Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:36 am

My opinion Gibbles is that the Dems in the largest cities have always run shady operations, overseen by Dem governors and mayors but mail in ballots were called absentee ballots and used to account for only 4%-5% (I think) against 95% in person (supposedly) verified voters. The Dems want anybody to vote their way, alive, dead, citizen, illegal alien, doesn’t matter. And in the Dem state where I live, they did not check my drivers license or voter id. I could have said anybodies name and agreed with the address and scribbled any signature and I would be voting.
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Re: An illegitimate president either way

Postby Mr Reasonable » Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:44 am

mail in ballots are hand marked paper ballots
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Re: An illegitimate president either way

Postby zinnat » Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:56 am

In spite of so mach tech savvy country and citizen, US is unnecessarily clinging to the past in the case of ballet counting. All voting should be done electronically at special designed centres.

US should learn about it from india. Even having three times more population than US, we can get all results within one day from the starting of the counting.

When people can rely on the electronics for their money, why not for their vote?

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Re: An illegitimate president either way

Postby WendyDarling » Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:07 am

zinnat wrote:In spite of so mach tech savvy country and citizen, US is unnecessarily clinging to the past in the case of ballet counting. All voting should be done electronically at special designed centres.

US should learn about it from india. Even having three times more population than US, we can get all results within one day from the starting of the counting.

When people can rely on the electronics for their money, why not for their vote?

With love,
Sanjay

I agree but citizens need a voter id # , so they can verify online that their vote has been counted for their candidate in a rooster containing all votes. In India, how do you know your vote was counted for who you chose?
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Re: An illegitimate president either way

Postby zinnat » Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:52 am

WendyDarling wrote:
zinnat wrote:In spite of so mach tech savvy country and citizen, US is unnecessarily clinging to the past in the case of ballet counting. All voting should be done electronically at special designed centres.

US should learn about it from india. Even having three times more population than US, we can get all results within one day from the starting of the counting.

When people can rely on the electronics for their money, why not for their vote?

With love,
Sanjay

I agree but citizens need a voter id # , so they can verify online that their vote has been counted for their candidate in a rooster containing all votes. In India, how do you know your vote was counted for who you chose?



In india , every voter has a voter ID, which has to be shown to election officials at voting centres. Then, they do some input according to that to the voting machine, then that particular voter can enter into the booth and press the button in the front of his/ her choice of candidate and the vote is casted and saved in the machine. His/ her vote cannot be cast again, so you know for whom you have voted. After the completion of voting hours, all voting machines are assembled at district magistrate office under heavy guard. When voting all over India is completed, all machines are opened in the front of all party representatives and get counted. Because of machines, the counting does not take more than a day.

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Re: An illegitimate president either way

Postby zinnat » Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:55 am

To avoid any fraud, these machines are not internet compatible but data storage devices only.

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Re: An illegitimate president either way

Postby WendyDarling » Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:57 am

How do you know that the machine did not flip your vote to the other candidate internally? Are your voter registrations a photo ID? How do you check if the machine even counted your vote? Are there voter ID registries for you to view online? If you cannot check and see your vote, it didn’t happen because you have no proof and no way to trace.
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Re: An illegitimate president either way

Postby fuse » Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:34 am

gib,

ppl colloquially call a state democrat or republican if it has majority democrat or republican voters. but no one would say that that alone would determine how the courts lean in the state. that's why I asked for clarification. states have balances of power. sometimes it is not clear that one party controls the state. as i said, there's the voters, the legislature (state reps and the state senate), and the governor. all three contribute to the balance of power. voters can split their tickets. just because they vote for a republican governor doesn't mean that they'll vote for all the republican legislators or judges. this presidential election is the an excellent demonstration of that. several historically republican states voted for a democrat president and republican legislators. and i suppose it's possible that a state's political parties could be completely different from all other states and not mirror federal politics but that doesn't happen to be the case. states do vary on how they select judges, but it is some combination of voters, legislators, and governors selecting them.

let's look at Georgia. historically republican voter majority, for over 20 years. republicans control the state house, the state senate, and the governor is a republican. most are very vocal trump supporters. the top election officials in Georgia are public about their support for trump. this election however, the majority of voters voted for a democrat for president. first time in a long time. there were even 2 or 3 recounts, an audit, etc. the result stood. yet trump is still claiming election fraud and is now not so subtly threatening republican officials in Georgia if they don't "find 11,000" votes for him.

all of team trump's claims of election fraud are directed at those particular states. why? they weren't all democrat controlled. they weren't the only states which could have had voter fraud. every state could be endlessly questioned and could be challenged in court but they only went after the ones where they thought they had a chance of changing the outcome. you're free to look into the claims yourself and ask yourself why only target those states. but it wasn't because they were all democrat controlled.

I agree with you that the court decisions more reflect the way trump and ppl approached their litigation, and that's why I made clear that the point I was making in this thread wasn't to say that the court decisions alone prove that none of trump's fraud claims could be true. however, as a separate matter, I do believe Trump's claims are virtually all bs. have I debunked every single claim that someone has thrown out there in the past 2 months? of course not. but many have and I spent a non-trivial amount of time looking into various issues. it's an informed opinion.

this election wasn't that much different from previous elections imo, regarding voting and counting votes. mail in ballots were more prevalent this year, but they've always been a significant method of voting. could election processes in general be even more secure, yeah they could. but i don't think the issues are anywhere near as prevalent or as significant as what is being claimed. yes, we'd have to discuss specifics here. let me be clear i'm just stating my opinions so you know where i'm coming from. i don't intend to spend time debating fraud claims here. maybe someone else wants to. i just don't have the time for that, and ilp isn't a bastion of good faith discussion at the moment.

i can say that this election definitely was not business as usual. it's my opinion that Trump was grasping for whatever claims he could plausibly make to challenge the results, and that of the group of republicans supporting him I think many are doing so cynically, as a political move. to clarify, i'm not making an argument here, just letting you know where i stand if you're interested.
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Re: An illegitimate president either way

Postby zinnat » Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:41 am

WendyDarling wrote:How do you know that the machine did not flip your vote to the other candidate internally? Are your voter registrations a photo ID? How do you check if the machine even counted your vote? Are there voter ID registries for you to view online? If you cannot check and see your vote, it didn’t happen because you have no proof and no way to trace.


Yes, every voter id has a unique no and photo too. For every voter id, it opens for once only so change or second time voting is not possible. Every voter has to sign a form also before casting his/ her vote.

After completion of voting hours all machines are kept under heavy guard till the conting. Having said that, there is still is no way for the voter to confirm his/ her vote later online. Considering all pros and cons, I think this indian system is much better than traditional methods.

When all this started, people made too much noise about it. Then, government offered them open chance to tamper the mach and system but all failed. But, still losing candidates blame their loss to machines however no one listens to them.

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Re: An illegitimate president either way

Postby Mr Reasonable » Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:53 am

fuse, interesting fact to consider that ties in a bit to what youre saying. biden got more votes in alabama than he did in vermont. the state govt is mostly republican controlled here. but most highly populated areas are not.

the fact of the matter is that more americans want democratic policies. if it were 1 person, 1 vote, then there would hardly be a contest at all. a minority of people who want to dictate policy over the majority are clinging to the electoral college and whatever else they can to try and retain power because when your policy isnt what is best for most people, that puts you at a disadvantage with, well...most people.
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Re: An illegitimate president either way

Postby fuse » Wed Jan 06, 2021 8:16 am

yup, that's the system we have. it definitely needs to be re-calibrated, although I do think there is an argument to be made about having a check on mass population centers, which can tend to be politically homogeneous, in effect controlling the election. if we just did away with the electoral college, then federal elections would be purely focused on like the top 10 population centers, and all the people spread throughout rural U.S. would, as a practical matter, lose representation - at least at the federal level - it seems to me. it's another discussion. definitely an interesting one.

it is ironic to me that democrats are being made out to be masterminds of rigging democracy when it's republicans who have impressively gerrymandered many states, succeeded at packing the courts, and have made it a priority to control election rules and the election process. democrats have been pretty inept at countering these tactics, perhaps until recently.
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Re: An illegitimate president either way

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:48 pm

the us constitution and government were not made to be ruled by simple-majority which is why we dont have popular vote

smears and fuse, take a history lesson, becuz u certainly need em, lol how misinformed and clueless u 2 r
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Re: An illegitimate president either way

Postby WendyDarling » Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:17 pm

zinnat wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:How do you know that the machine did not flip your vote to the other candidate internally? Are your voter registrations a photo ID? How do you check if the machine even counted your vote? Are there voter ID registries for you to view online? If you cannot check and see your vote, it didn’t happen because you have no proof and no way to trace.


Yes, every voter id has a unique no and photo too. For every voter id, it opens for once only so change or second time voting is not possible. Every voter has to sign a form also before casting his/ her vote.

After completion of voting hours all machines are kept under heavy guard till the conting. Having said that, there is still is no way for the voter to confirm his/ her vote later online. Considering all pros and cons, I think this indian system is much better than traditional methods.

When all this started, people made too much noise about it. Then, government offered them open chance to tamper the mach and system but all failed. But, still losing candidates blame their loss to machines however no one listens to them.

With love,
Sanjay

So what you are saying is you have no way to know if your vote counted and was actually correctly counted for your candidate? How is that better?
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Re: An illegitimate president either way

Postby fuse » Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:53 am

One data point - what the highest ranking Republican in the U.S. Congress had to say about Congressional officials disputing the electoral votes today.

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Re: An illegitimate president either way

Postby zinnat » Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:42 am

WendyDarling wrote:
zinnat wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:How do you know that the machine did not flip your vote to the other candidate internally? Are your voter registrations a photo ID? How do you check if the machine even counted your vote? Are there voter ID registries for you to view online? If you cannot check and see your vote, it didn’t happen because you have no proof and no way to trace.


Yes, every voter id has a unique no and photo too. For every voter id, it opens for once only so change or second time voting is not possible. Every voter has to sign a form also before casting his/ her vote.

After completion of voting hours all machines are kept under heavy guard till the conting. Having said that, there is still is no way for the voter to confirm his/ her vote later online. Considering all pros and cons, I think this indian system is much better than traditional methods.

When all this started, people made too much noise about it. Then, government offered them open chance to tamper the mach and system but all failed. But, still losing candidates blame their loss to machines however no one listens to them.

With love,
Sanjay

So what you are saying is you have no way to know if your vote counted and was actually correctly counted for your candidate? How is that better?


You are not getting my point. As machines are designed for one time per voter use so however you vote, it comes to the screen right at the time and saved. That cannot be changed after that. That is proved publically.

Machines can not have any mind or intention of their own to change voting.

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Re: An illegitimate president either way

Postby Mr Reasonable » Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:54 am

fuse wrote:yup, that's the system we have. it definitely needs to be re-calibrated, although I do think there is an argument to be made about having a check on mass population centers, which can tend to be politically homogeneous, in effect controlling the election. if we just did away with the electoral college, then federal elections would be purely focused on like the top 10 population centers, and all the people spread throughout rural U.S. would, as a practical matter, lose representation - at least at the federal level - it seems to me. it's another discussion. definitely an interesting one.

it is ironic to me that democrats are being made out to be masterminds of rigging democracy when it's republicans who have impressively gerrymandered many states, succeeded at packing the courts, and have made it a priority to control election rules and the election process. democrats have been pretty inept at countering these tactics, perhaps until recently.



google dan crenshaws district that map is the stuff of legend
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