What is social progressivism?

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Re: What is social progressivism?

Postby Sculptor » Fri Dec 18, 2020 4:18 pm

Gloominary wrote:What is social progressivism, or to put it another way, what is leftwing social control/authoritarianism?


You seem to have answered your won question with your own brand of prejudice.
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Re: What is social progressivism?

Postby Sculptor » Fri Dec 18, 2020 4:26 pm


What is social progressivism??


This is what provided me with:

free schooling
affordable housing
freehealth care.
Town Planning
my cure for cancer
the road i drove in on.
the street lights
the policeman on the corner and
the guys in the fire station,
clean water.
Sanitation
transport infrstructure.

Sadly, especually in the last 40 years, it is the people who benefit the most, that pay the least for these things, namely the corporations as without these things they would be able to make zero profits. In the last 40 years the burden of provision for these things has been transfered to the poorest and the most hard working people in society.
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Re: What is social progressivism?

Postby d0rkyd00d » Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:43 pm

Gloominary wrote:
d0rkyd00d wrote:Again I'd ask: define freedom. Tired of the word getting tossed around as a buzzword conflation for "good."

Socioeconomic freedom means we don't touch an individual or their property without their consent.
Of course this is a simplification, what constitutes touching and property is sometimes ambiguous.
There are various customs and laws for determining when a person's sovereignty over themselves and their property has been violated.
And I'm not saying there aren't any other moral concerns, there are, for most of us, just I tend to prioritize freedom over other concerns.

For me, freedom has intrinsic, and extrinsic value.
Sacrificing freedom for the greater good is at best occasionally a necessary evil or the lesser of two evils, and at worst often evil, it's never good.
Freedom is something we should cherish, be very reluctant to forego, for its intrinsic value, and because it's dangerous and stifling to, in a world where TPTB often mean us harm, and society will never understand us and our needs as well as we understand ourselves, in many ways, even when its intensions are benign.

Freedom is natural, we all want it.
Grab any man or beast unfamiliar to you and they will struggle to break free.
For better or worse, we had to be conditioned from a young age to allow government to take our freedom under certain circumstances.

I find people's faith in technocrats deeply disturbing.


As I mentioned before, freedom is paradoxical: it is not possible to have complete freedom, because having such would encroach on the freedom of others. If this isn't factored into one's equation, it is impossible to have an honest conversation about the limitations of freedom.
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
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Re: What is social progressivism?

Postby Gloominary » Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:04 pm

d0rkyd00d wrote:
Gloominary wrote:
d0rkyd00d wrote:Again I'd ask: define freedom. Tired of the word getting tossed around as a buzzword conflation for "good."

Socioeconomic freedom means we don't touch an individual or their property without their consent.
Of course this is a simplification, what constitutes touching and property is sometimes ambiguous.
There are various customs and laws for determining when a person's sovereignty over themselves and their property has been violated.
And I'm not saying there aren't any other moral concerns, there are, for most of us, just I tend to prioritize freedom over other concerns.

For me, freedom has intrinsic, and extrinsic value.
Sacrificing freedom for the greater good is at best occasionally a necessary evil or the lesser of two evils, and at worst often evil, it's never good.
Freedom is something we should cherish, be very reluctant to forego, for its intrinsic value, and because it's dangerous and stifling to, in a world where TPTB often mean us harm, and society will never understand us and our needs as well as we understand ourselves, in many ways, even when its intensions are benign.

Freedom is natural, we all want it.
Grab any man or beast unfamiliar to you and they will struggle to break free.
For better or worse, we had to be conditioned from a young age to allow government to take our freedom under certain circumstances.

I find people's faith in technocrats deeply disturbing.


As I mentioned before, freedom is paradoxical: it is not possible to have complete freedom, because having such would encroach on the freedom of others. If this isn't factored into one's equation, it is impossible to have an honest conversation about the limitations of freedom.

Well that's what I mean by freedom, that we don't touch each other or each other's property without each other's consent, not a free-for-all or might makes right.
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Re: What is social progressivism?

Postby d0rkyd00d » Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:15 pm

Gloominary wrote:
d0rkyd00d wrote:Well that's what I mean by freedom, that we don't touch each other or each other's property without each other's consent, not a free-for-all or might makes right.


And what of the freedom to smoke indoors? To pollute on one's own property? You know, things that might have an indirect on "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
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Re: What is social progressivism?

Postby Gloominary » Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:46 pm

d0rkyd00d wrote:
Gloominary wrote:
d0rkyd00d wrote:Well that's what I mean by freedom, that we don't touch each other or each other's property without each other's consent, not a free-for-all or might makes right.


And what of the freedom to smoke indoors? To pollute on one's own property? You know, things that might have an indirect on "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

In general I'm against prohibiting indirect harm.
I'm against government forcing private businesses to ban smoking indoors, altho if some private businesses take it upon themselves to ban smoking indoors, that's up to them.
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Re: What is social progressivism?

Postby d0rkyd00d » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:31 pm

Gloominary wrote:In general I'm against prohibiting indirect harm.


And how do you justify that ethically?
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
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Re: What is social progressivism?

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:40 pm

I thought people often cannot prove the exact cause of indirect harm since it's indirect and could have come from anywhere, anyone, everywhere, everyone, multiple sources without specific proof.
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Re: What is social progressivism?

Postby Gloominary » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:45 pm

^^^
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Re: What is social progressivism?

Postby d0rkyd00d » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:08 am

WendyDarling wrote:I thought people often cannot prove the exact cause of indirect harm since it's indirect and could have come from anywhere, anyone, everywhere, everyone, multiple sources without specific proof.


Hmm....probably true sometimes. But not mostly, or always.
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
-Bertrand Russell
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Re: What is social progressivism?

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:13 am

Well, Dood, figure out a guaranteed way to gather evidence of indirect harm and you’ll have a world full of hungry attorneys beating down your door. They’re all waiting on you.
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Re: What is social progressivism?

Postby d0rkyd00d » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:51 am

WendyDarling wrote:Well, Dood, figure out a guaranteed way to gather evidence of indirect harm and you’ll have a world full of hungry attorneys beating down your door. They’re all waiting on you.


It's already been done, many times. Perhaps I need to clarify, by "indirect harm," I am talking about actions that have adverse consequences for people outside the boundaries where the activity is being performed.
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
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Re: What is social progressivism?

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:49 am

That can be ambiguously applied to just about everybody suffering anything from anywhere. Guess I need actual examples, tried court cases or major exposes, where indirect harm was substantiated, rather than being causally linked to direct harm.
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Re: What is social progressivism?

Postby Gloominary » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:21 pm

Sculptor wrote:
What is social progressivism??


This is what provided me with:

free schooling
affordable housing
freehealth care.
Town Planning
my cure for cancer
the road i drove in on.
the street lights
the policeman on the corner and
the guys in the fire station,
clean water.
Sanitation
transport infrstructure.

Sadly, especually in the last 40 years, it is the people who benefit the most, that pay the least for these things, namely the corporations as without these things they would be able to make zero profits. In the last 40 years the burden of provision for these things has been transfered to the poorest and the most hard working people in society.

I see your list as examples of fiscal progressivism, not sociocultural progressivism, or at least they would be examples of fiscal progressivism if the rich paid the most for them, but since they pay the least for them, they're examples of fiscal regressivism.
Sociocultural progressivism is globalism, misandry, reverse racism and transsexualism on the one hand, and gun control, medical and scientific totalitarianism on the other, all of which I'm opposed to.
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Re: What is social progressivism?

Postby Gloominary » Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:00 pm

So there are two forms of sociocultural progressivism for the purposes of this discussion.

1) Health, safety and scientific authoritarianism, policies like compulsory education, compulsory healthcare, gun control, helmets on bikes and seatbelts in cars, prohibiting drunk and reckless driving, prohibiting indoor smoking, warning labels and workplace safety.

2) Globalism and leftwing identity politics.

You can be both for health, safety and scientific authoritarianism, and against globalism and leftwing identity politics, or vice versa.

Likewise there are two forms of fiscal progressivism.

1) The nationalization/subsidization of hospitals, schools, infrastructure, police and fire departments.

2) Socialization.

The first form of progressivism is promoting health, safety and science, the second form of progressivism is promoting equality and inclusivity.

Just because you're in favor of promoting the former, doesn't mean you're in favor of promoting the latter, and vice versa.
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Re: What is social progressivism?

Postby d0rkyd00d » Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:07 pm

WendyDarling wrote:That can be ambiguously applied to just about everybody suffering anything from anywhere. Guess I need actual examples, tried court cases or major exposes, where indirect harm was substantiated, rather than being causally linked to direct harm.


I'd say the very definition of indirect harm is harm that is "causally linked to direct harm." What else could it be?
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
-Bertrand Russell
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Re: What is social progressivism?

Postby Silhouette » Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:30 pm

Gloominary wrote:I conceive of things a bit differently than you.

There's barely any difference between what we both said though.
What you said was basically reiterating my own points, so I'm curious why you thought it was so different.

Gloominary wrote:There's also scientific authoritarianism or technocracy, which I consider to be more conservative than progressive, because conservatism is all about hierarchy, and so is science (rationality>irrationality), whereas progressivism is all about overturning hierarchy.
Technocracy enforces things which're thought to be more objective, matter of fact, like education, health and safety as opposed to religion, morals and values.
Technocracy is compulsory education, compulsory healthcare and compulsory environmental conservation.

The thing about technocracy is that nature is already authoritarian in enforcing natural laws.
Science just finds out how it's doing its dictating and turns it in our favour so we can make it work for us instead of against us - and that's technocracy.
The problem is when technocracy is turned against the people by human authoritarians, which is channeling nature's authority via human intelligence to oppress doubly.
As long as that's avoided, then technocracy is just scientists vying against one another in an actual democratic meritocracy to compete to get the best information on how the world works and how we can get the most out of it as a people.

I can only imagine that people against technocracy are either scientifically illiterate, and/or they know they'll be intellectually sidelined in comparison with the experts, or they're just conservative and worried about letting too much change at once.
I've already talked elsewhere about how experts will be wrong a lot and regularly, and the abuse of the current system is the devil that we know, which sounds safer. But I'd rather people were making informed decisions based on our best data that we have about how the world works, than be "safe" under the same oppression we've always had, grown accustomed to, and developed our own ideologies to mentally protect us from realising its harm.

I don't see the need to enforce education - the incentive to get educated is there simply by virtue of education being the factor that helps you to get ahead. Compulsory healthcare is just allowing equal opportunity, and compulsory environmental conservation is just long term responsibility. You present these things as bad somehow? The only problem with science is when it's twisted by media and politics, or postmodernists who are apparently already sabotaging education from the inside out.

Gloominary wrote:Since progressivism is the inversion of conservative values, so what conservatives consider good becomes equal or inferior to what they consider bad, perhaps one day there'll be an movement to invert scientific values.
There have been challenges to technocracy inside and outside academia here and there, but nothing on the level of progressivism's challenge to conservatism.
I think people underestimate technocracy, in light of recent events, I'm predicting it's going to really take off and come into its own in the coming decades.
I'm also suspecting both a libertarian and progressive backlash to technocracy after decades or centuries of its reign.

Some other important concepts to think about are globalism/nationalism, pacifism/militarism.

All of this is historical.
As humanity changes, for better or worse, new values and ways of conceptualizing and organizing things will arise.

Why oh why would anyone want to invert scientific values? Scientific values are the most democratic, meritocratic and realistic values that we've ever had - as our best epistemology to date. I hope it does take off in the coming decades, and as soon as possible - better late than never. It's the most libertarian and progressive model out there - so why would libertarians and progressives fight back?

There is already a backlash against science amongst the postmodernist authoritarian left, who don't believe in modernist truth, yet they still want to impose and direct power structures based on their version of what gets us back to some kind of equal opportunity according to superficial traits and identities. Science opposes this, which is why they're against science, and why I'm against them. I favour science - it doesn't care about your political opinion, it'll find the best truth of how to run things whether you like it or not.
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Re: What is social progressivism?

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:51 pm

Silhouette wrote:I can only imagine that people against technocracy are either scientifically illiterate, and/or they know they'll be intellectually sidelined in comparison with the experts, or they're just conservative and worried about letting too much change at once.

Silhouette wrote:Why oh why would anyone want to invert scientific values? Scientific values are the most democratic, meritocratic and realistic values that we've ever had - as our best epistemology to date. I hope it does take off in the coming decades, and as soon as possible - better late than never. It's the most libertarian and progressive model out there - so why would libertarians and progressives fight back?

There is already a backlash against science amongst the postmodernist authoritarian left, who don't believe in modernist truth, yet they still want to impose and direct power structures based on their version of what gets us back to some kind of equal opportunity according to superficial traits and identities. Science opposes this, which is why they're against science, and why I'm against them. I favour science - it doesn't care about your political opinion, it'll find the best truth of how to run things whether you like it or not.

You apparently don't read the news, or any news for that matter.

If you had, then you'd understand the "Technocrats", meaning Zuckerberg and Dorsey of Facebook and Twitter, also Google and Youtube, have basically pissed on the First Amendment, which they are technically subservient to as per the US Constitution. So you are painfully ignorant of the real-world, real-time consequences of Scientific Authoritarianism, and this new post-enlightenment "Sciencism" movement. Politics and Science do not mix.

When they, you, or any institution abuses its power to undermine Social Democracy, which is what Big Tech has done, is doing, and will continue to do as long as it protects their Billions of dollars and investments, then Civil Rights are repudiated.


Censorship is rife and rampant, "cancel culture", BLM and Antifa thugs roaming the street, DOXxing, "Unpersoning", basically you and your cronies, the side you represent, have pissed on the US Constitution, and torn it to shreads.

No amount of "Scientism" is going to help when shit hits the fan, there is a people's revolt (Trumpism), Military and Ex-military personnel decide they're not going to take it anymore. Because Guns > Technology, and that's the bottom-line.


Those who are aware of basic Civics and Ethics know the fight coming. You can't silence your opposition and piss on Our Constitution, and if you think you can, as an self-purported Elitist, then you are in for a rude wakeup. This is the fight at hand, that you are childishly blind and naive toward. You and the other loudmouth, pathetic Liberal-Leftist-Communists on this forum, of which there are far, far too many.

The Berlin Wall should have stayed-up, and you should have stayed on the East side of it.
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Re: What is social progressivism?

Postby Silhouette » Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:13 am

Read the post.

Silhouette wrote:The problem is when technocracy is turned against the people by human authoritarians, which is channeling nature's authority via human intelligence to oppress doubly.


Urwrongx1000 wrote:Politics and Science do not mix.


Silhouette wrote:The only problem with science is when it's twisted by media and politics, or postmodernists who are apparently already sabotaging education from the inside out.


We actually agree on this one. Put. The Straw man. Down.
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Re: What is social progressivism?

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:25 am

Are you now claiming that you're not a Scientism-ist?
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Re: What is social progressivism?

Postby WendyDarling » Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:52 am

d0rkyd00d wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:That can be ambiguously applied to just about everybody suffering anything from anywhere. Guess I need actual examples, tried court cases or major exposes, where indirect harm was substantiated, rather than being causally linked to direct harm.


I'd say the very definition of indirect harm is harm that is "causally linked to direct harm." What else could it be?

So you cannot substantiate the existence of indirect harm with evidence? If something is causally linked to direct harm, it is direct harm.
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Re: What is social progressivism?

Postby d0rkyd00d » Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:25 pm

WendyDarling wrote:
d0rkyd00d wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:That can be ambiguously applied to just about everybody suffering anything from anywhere. Guess I need actual examples, tried court cases or major exposes, where indirect harm was substantiated, rather than being causally linked to direct harm.


I'd say the very definition of indirect harm is harm that is "causally linked to direct harm." What else could it be?

So you cannot substantiate the existence of indirect harm with evidence? If something is causally linked to direct harm, it is direct harm.


Okay so what is defined as "indirect harm?"
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Re: What is social progressivism?

Postby obsrvr524 » Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:38 pm

I think there are two kinds of indirect harm -
  • a linear causal chain of multiple events between a trigger event and a final result
  • a complex obfuscation of multiple causal factors that combine into a final result (usually used to hide the guilty)

If it is merely a linear causal chain of events, I think the party is still provably guilty of the final result but only people who think about it will see that. If it is an obfuscation of many factors the guilty party remains hidden - "escape-goat" strategy. That strategy doesn't make the participant any less guilty - only free from prosecution - a "perfect crime" strategy. The practice of stoning uses that strategy.
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Re: What is social progressivism?

Postby Meno_ » Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:59 pm

Or. a process of undermining awareness of any elements presented in a chain of causes that may prove detreimental to means of production.

The reductive proveability becomes alienated from people not thinking about it , progressively diminishing the chances of any proof , following a downward slope. This correlates with Marxian parallels with diminishing returns, inflationary pressures, and the rise of authority toward absolute.
Last edited by Meno_ on Sun Dec 20, 2020 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is social progressivism?

Postby d0rkyd00d » Sun Dec 20, 2020 7:03 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:I think there are two kinds of indirect harm -
  • a linear causal chain of multiple events between a trigger event and a final result
  • a complex obfuscation of multiple causal factors that combine into a final result (usually used to hide the guilty)

If it is merely a linear causal chain of events, I think the party is still provably guilty of the final result but only people who think about it will see that. If it is an obfuscation of many factors the guilty party remains hidden - "escape-goat" strategy. That strategy doesn't make the participant any less guilty - only free from prosecution - a "perfect crime" strategy. The practice of stoning uses that strategy.


I agree, and I'd argue the just conclusion is therefore to prosecute when the evidence is overwhelmingly linear, "beyond a reasonable doubt."

Of course I would reject on a moral basis the manipulation of data in situations where the causal chain is too complex, in the pursuit of monetary gain through litigation.
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