Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:15 am

Gloominary wrote:Maybe. Or perhaps, as I suspect, you just outsource your knowledge more haphazardly, less consistently.
I'm not sure what you mean by "I'm an expert in what's right for me," but I think I disagree. If you suddenly had slurred speech and a limp, you wouldn't walk into the ER insisting on your diagnosis and how they are going to treat you.
You say "opinion," why not say "expertise?" That is a more accurate word, and reveals the absurdity of your statement.
Grassroots sources of into are better in some ways than top-down sources, we've already covered this.
Sometimes I go the doctor, sometimes I don't, sometimes I take their advice, sometimes I don't.
Under extraordinary circumstances, if I feel like I'm dying, I may place my life in their hands, I'm in no condition to take care myself if I'm dying, someone has to take care of me and it may as well be them.
So doctors having expertise in your life sounds better to you?

Some additions: there are minority expert postions. IOW scientists and medical professionals who present an alternative position. There is always the option to look at the arguments these people put forward. Sometimes, for example, the alternative experts make statements that are denied or omitted by the mainstream experts. This can be quite damning. Sometimes the alternative experts include whistleblower who have inside information.

To this expert testimony and evidence one can also look at other information: possible motivations of the mainstream experts, habitual paradigmatic errors by the experts, how whistleblowers and other alternative viewpoints are treated.

Then there can be investigations into what the official story is.

No alternative expert, for example, told me that one should wonder why they are using RNA tech in the new vaccines. Many of them presented potential risks or what they thought were certain risks. Some certainly said it was experimental.

But it was must me mulling that raised the issue, for myself: why take an experimental approach when one has less time to test? (I am sure others did, but I was not reaction to them.) Now this isn't damning, but it is a valid question and real concern. Why not use a traditional tech, since the very industry producing vaccines has said the traditional vaccines are very effective, they are experts in making, storing and testing them, and also have much much more evidence about mid to long term side effects.

One does not have to be a genius or merely trust intuition (though intuition deserves its own thread nearly on issues like this),.

One can question expert opinion as a layperson.

Just as laypeople have effected excellent skeptical campaigns against things like the incredibly high numbers of psychotropic prescriptions, including with children; the connectoins between the FDA's dietary reccomendations and the make up of the leadership at the FDA and how this all contrasts with alternative health suggestions related to diet; cellphone use buy children leads to social problems. Yes, other experts were working on these issue, but grass roots people who though something was going wrong with these issues, either in their own lives or locally raised objections to what they were repeatedly told was the scientific consensus opinion.
Last edited by Karpel Tunnel on Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:16 am

'airlines seem to be strongly considering not allowing unvaccinated to fly...
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/ ... for-travel
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:20 am

can employers require a vaccine of their employees. It seems the answer is likely yes...
https://www.aarp.org/work/working-at-50 ... ccine.html
https://apnews.com/article/can-employer ... ff751f0d82

will they?
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby d0rkyd00d » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:21 am

Gloominary wrote:
d0rkyd00d wrote:
Gloominary wrote:Grassroots sources of into are better in some ways than top-down sources, we've already covered this.
Sometimes I go the doctor, sometimes I don't, sometimes I take their advice, sometimes I don't.
Under extraordinary circumstances, if I feel like I'm dying, I may place my life in their hands, I'm in no condition to take care myself if I'm dying, someone has to take care of me and it may as well be them.
Sure, I have expertise in what's right for me.


Again, assuming you aren't a physician, you don't have more expertise when it comes to the medical treatment of a human (including yourself) than a physician.

I have expertise in how good/bad their medicines and services are for me by virtue of being in my body.


Relative to them, your scope of knowledge is extremely narrow. Not a debatable point, or even an interesting discussion, IMO. So if that is where our paths split on this particular matter, so be it.
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Gloominary » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:22 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Gloominary wrote:Maybe. Or perhaps, as I suspect, you just outsource your knowledge more haphazardly, less consistently.
I'm not sure what you mean by "I'm an expert in what's right for me," but I think I disagree. If you suddenly had slurred speech and a limp, you wouldn't walk into the ER insisting on your diagnosis and how they are going to treat you.
You say "opinion," why not say "expertise?" That is a more accurate word, and reveals the absurdity of your statement.
Grassroots sources of into are better in some ways than top-down sources, we've already covered this.
Sometimes I go the doctor, sometimes I don't, sometimes I take their advice, sometimes I don't.
Under extraordinary circumstances, if I feel like I'm dying, I may place my life in their hands, I'm in no condition to take care myself if I'm dying, someone has to take care of me and it may as well be them.
So doctors having expertise in your life sounds better to you?

Some additions: there are minority expert postions. IOW scientists and medical professionals who present an alternative position. There is always the option to look at the arguments these people put forward. Sometimes, for example, the alternative experts make statements that are denied or omitted by the mainstream experts. This can be quite damning. Sometimes the alternative experts include whistleblower who have inside information.

To this expert testimony and evidence one can also look at other information: possible motivations of the mainstream experts, habitual paradigmatic errors by the experts, how whistleblowers and other alternative viewpoints are treated.

Then there can be investigations into what the official story is.

No alternative expert, for example, told me that one should wonder why they are using RNA tech in the new vaccines. Many of them presented potential risks or what they thought were certain risks. Some certainly said it was experimental.

But it was must me mulling that raised the issue, for myself: why take an experimental approach when one has less time to test? (I am sure others did, but I was not reaction to them.) Now this isn't damning, but it is a valid question and real concern. Why not use a traditional tech, since the very industry producing vaccines has said the traditional vaccines are very effective, they are experts in making, storing and testing them, and also have much much more evidence about mid to long term side effects.

One does not have to be a genius or merely trust intuition (though intuition deserves its own thread nearly on issues like this),.

One can question expert opinion as a layperson.

Just as laypeople have effected excellent skeptical campaigns against things like the incredibly high numbers of psychotropic prescriptions, including with children; the connectoins between the FDA's dietary reccomendations and the make up of the leadership at the FDA and how this all contrasts with alternative health suggestions related to diet; cellphone use buy children leads to social problems. Yes, other experts were working on these issue, but grass roots people who though something was going wrong with these issues, either in their own lives or locally raised objections to what they were repeatedly told was the scientific consensus opinion.

Just so everyone knows, I didn't write what you're responding to here, d00d did.
Nonetheless, great points Karpel as usual.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Gloominary » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:25 am

Relative to them, your scope of knowledge is extremely narrow. Not a debatable point, or even an interesting discussion, IMO. So if that is where our paths split on this particular matter, so be it.

My knowledge of what works for me is narrow, but deep, their knowledge of what works for everyone is broad, but shallow.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Gloominary » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:27 am

I have a life time of direct knowledge about my body/mind, they have a life time of indirect knowledge about bits and pieces from other people's bodies/minds.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby d0rkyd00d » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:31 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:But it was must me mulling that raised the issue, for myself: why take an experimental approach when one has less time to test? (I am sure others did, but I was not reaction to them.) Now this isn't damning, but it is a valid question and real concern. Why not use a traditional tech, since the very industry producing vaccines has said the traditional vaccines are very effective, they are experts in making, storing and testing them, and also have much much more evidence about mid to long term side effects.

One does not have to be a genius or merely trust intuition (though intuition deserves its own thread nearly on issues like this),.


But here's what's really telling: when I present to you a reasonable explanation and source for why they are taking what you classify as an "experimental approach" (on a treatment that has been developed and tested for 30 years), your confirmation bias immediately filters it out or deletes it:

Traditional vaccines work: polio and measles are just two examples of serious illnesses brought under control by vaccines. Collectively, vaccines may have done more good for humanity than any other medical advance in history. But growing large amounts of a virus, and then weakening the virus or extracting the critical piece, takes a lot of time.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/why ... 0121021599


This is why discussion on the matter is a pointless game of whack-a-mole. All of your concerns are easily addressed with the smallest bit of reading and research, but you not only refuse to do it yourself, but then ignore the qualified rationale when it is presented to you. This is how it mirrors/parallels the evolution vs. creation debate.
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"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby d0rkyd00d » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:32 am

Gloominary wrote:I have a life time of direct knowledge about my body/mind, they have a life time of indirect knowledge about bits and pieces from other people's bodies/minds.


Yeah I get your point bud, but living in your body doesn't give you a detailed or accurate picture of how it operates and functions internally.
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Gloominary » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:47 am

A priori, I don't know what doctors and scientists really know.
Just because they've done a lot of research, doesn't mean all or most of it was good research.
How benevolent/malevolent and reasonable/unreasonable is this corporation/institution?
Lots of people trust it, so it probably has some value, but some people don't trust it.
As I interact with it, by doing my own research on the one hand, and employing their services on the other, I get acquainted with it.
In the areas it makes sense to and works for me, I tend to trust those areas.
In the areas it doesn't make sense to and work for me, I tend to distrust those areas.
I may tend to trust it overall, but I don't trust it absolutely.
This is how our relationship with government, with every other corporation and institution works.
We don't write any of them a blank check, trust them blindly, give them 100% benefit of the doubt.
That is not an equal relationship, that is worship.
We as individuals and a democracy must continually hold every corporation and institution's feet to the fire, especially science, or they will grow ever more corrupt, and abusive, like any organization given unwavering trust would.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby d0rkyd00d » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:49 am

Gloominary wrote:I don't know what doctors and scientists really know.


This has become quite clear.
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
-Bertrand Russell
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Gloominary » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:52 am

Democracy has checks and balances, MSM has checks and balances, nonetheless I think most would agree they're very corrupt, that we can't trust them.
Same with science, it has checks and balances, nonetheless it is not immune from massive corruption.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Gloominary » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:54 am

And then there's the overlap between big corrupt pharma and science, big corrupt government and science (technocracy).
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:56 am

I'd also like to plug my thread on this topic of 'don't go against the experts' as a blanket heuristic.

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 3&t=196436

And note I am not saying everyone can go against experts well or that one should generally do this, or that one can do this in an intelligent way on every issue. I am pointing out that going along with experts as a blanket heuristic is a weak approach to life
and further it is facing how tough and nuance adult life actually is.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:58 am

Gloominary wrote:And then there's the overlap between big corrupt pharma and science, big corrupt government and science (technocracy).

a good somewhat dated book on the first by a physician is

Bad Pharma....
Bad Pharma: How Drug Companies Mislead Doctors and Harm Patients is a book by the British physician and academic Ben Goldacre about the pharmaceutical industry, its relationship with the medical profession, and the extent to which it controls academic research into its own products.[1] It was published in the UK in September 2012 by the Fourth Estate imprint of HarperCollins, and in the United States in February 2013 by Faber and Faber.


Note the part that I emphasized above. People say you are going against science on so many issues where it is not at all clear this is the case.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby obsrvr524 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:59 am

d0rkyd00d wrote:
Gloominary wrote:I don't know what doctors and scientists really know.


This has become quite clear.

And they don't know what you really know either. And that has become very clear to me.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Gloominary » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:59 am

d0rkyd00d wrote:
Gloominary wrote:I have a life time of direct knowledge about my body/mind, they have a life time of indirect knowledge about bits and pieces from other people's bodies/minds.


Yeah I get your point bud, but living in your body doesn't give you a detailed or accurate picture of how it operates and functions internally.

On the contrary, I have tons of detailed and accurate info about my body/mind, after a life time of experience with them.
Doctors/scientists also have knowledge about the human body/mind in general I don't have, and some of this may be applicable to my body/mind, and some of it may not be, because we're all unique, and nature is dynamic.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby d0rkyd00d » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:00 am

obsrvr524 wrote:
d0rkyd00d wrote:
Gloominary wrote:I don't know what doctors and scientists really know.


This has become quite clear.

And they don't know what you really know either. And that has become very clear to me.


And you don't know that they don't KNOW you don't know what they know, and THAT has become very clear to me.
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby MagsJ » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:03 am

d0rkyd00d wrote:
Gloominary wrote:I have a life time of direct knowledge about my body/mind, they have a life time of indirect knowledge about bits and pieces from other people's bodies/minds.


Yeah I get your point bud, but living in your body doesn't give you a detailed or accurate picture of how it operates and functions internally.

So you don’t think for yourself and what your body needs Doorky, but let yourself be dictated to?

Would you continue to take meds that made you fat and drowsy?
Would you eat superfoods that made you unwell, just because they’re super?
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby d0rkyd00d » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:05 am

Gloominary wrote:
d0rkyd00d wrote:
Gloominary wrote:I have a life time of direct knowledge about my body/mind, they have a life time of indirect knowledge about bits and pieces from other people's bodies/minds.


Yeah I get your point bud, but living in your body doesn't give you a detailed or accurate picture of how it operates and functions internally.


On the contrary, I have tons of detailed and accurate info about my body/mind, after a life time of experience with them.
Doctors/scientists also have knowledge about the human body/mind in general I don't have, and some of this may be applicable to my body/mind, and some of it may not be, because we're all unique, and nature is dynamic.


Again, if this is the foundation you eventually build your COVID arguments upon, it clearly explains why we've reached different conclusions.
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
-Bertrand Russell
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby d0rkyd00d » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:07 am

MagsJ wrote:So you don’t think for yourself and what your body needs Doorky, but let yourself be dictated to?


A little from column A, a little from column B, would probably be the most accurate description.

MagsJ wrote:Would you continue to take meds that made you fat and drowsy?
Would you eat superfoods that made you unwell, just because they’re super?


Probably not. Also not sure this has to do with the price of tea in China.
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
-Bertrand Russell
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Gloominary » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:19 am

Again, if this is the foundation you eventually build your COVID arguments upon, it clearly explains why we've reached different conclusions.

I'm basing it on a lot of things, not just on my personal experiences with my body, but on the research I've done, on health in general, and on society and politics in general, and on covid in particular.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby obsrvr524 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:19 am

d0rkyd00d wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:
d0rkyd00d wrote:This has become quite clear.

And they don't know what you really know either. And that has become very clear to me.


And you don't know that they don't KNOW you don't know what they know, and THAT has become very clear to me.

And YOU don't know what you know or don't know about anyone. And that has become clear to EVERYONE.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby MagsJ » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:21 am

d0rkyd00d wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Would you continue to take meds that made you fat and drowsy?
Would you eat superfoods that made you unwell, just because they’re super?
Probably not. Also not sure this has to do with the price of tea in China.

You see no correlation whatsoever? Ok.. just thought I’d ask/put it out there.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Gloominary » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:31 am

d0rkyd00d wrote:
Gloominary wrote:I don't know what doctors and scientists really know.


This has become quite clear.

I meant a priori.
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