Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Gloominary » Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:47 pm

d00d

That irresponsibility rest on how many perceived risks these treatments pose, and the risk COVID poses. When you say it is irresponsible to you, it is relevant to know how much experience and training you have with these technologies to adequately assess risk.

While laymen are not qualified to produce vaxxines, as consumers/taxpayers, we're all qualified to adequately assess their risk/'benefit'.
The producer doesn't get to bypass/circumvent the consumer/taxpayer, the producer isn't an authority/superior, it's buyer/taxpayer beware.
So do your own research, think for yourself.
Last edited by Gloominary on Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Gloominary » Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:01 pm

No one is claiming there was a conference, but certainly there was a consensus within the medical fields

I'm not certain of that.

(and within these companies)

Of course.

that it was safe and effective enough to pursue as a treatment. I also don't see a number of reputable medical journals and sources indicating grave concerns for these treatments (unless they are also in "big pharma's pocket").

They might be, big pharma is, big.

Big tech admittedly censors any negative info about covid vaxxines.

Finally, of course these companies have a profit incentive to offer a safe and effective treatment. Remember hydrochloroquine?

You think companies would have rather spent billions of dollars on R&D coming up with a new, unsafe, ineffective treatment, than bankroll an existing one? You don't think that's a bit short sighted from a corporate standpoint?

Vaccine manufacturers can't be sued for damages, I posted a link on that a little while ago, I'll see if I can find it.

And the court system is rigged in their favor, it's undemocratic, there's no judge and jury, only a grandmaster.

Companies have behaved unethically in the past; therefore, this new kind of treatment (used by multiple companies) poses a level of unknown risk. It's a non-sequitur. Here's what the CDC says about mrna vaccines.

No it's not, it's a reasonable inference.

Wasn't talking about you, but you also didn't dispute it, nor does it address the argument. If there was no way to determine risk factors of a new treatment, why inject it into POTUS?

It's not that there's no way at all, it's that it's an insufficient way, as a consumer/taxpayer.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:30 am

An interesting take on how the crisis is being used by politicians and what the culture of politics is.
Russell brand also reminds me that the billionaires and many of the larger corporations INCREASED their wealth and power during the first wave of Covid. They are likely continuing this. There is a consolidation of power happening. Whether there is a conspiracy in any facet of the crisis or not, there is a consolidation of power happening and it is also politics as usual....

https://youtu.be/jnOIC9qSz4U
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Zero_Sum » Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:15 pm

I'm an advocate of herd immunity. 8) I'm also one of those guys that doesn't like taking medicine for anything unless I really have to. I believe in natural healing and not being dependent on others or medicines.

I certainly don't trust today's governments to inject me with anything as I have no faith, confidence, or trust in them whatsoever.

I have no trust, faith, and confidence in large corporations either especially that of for profit pharmaceutical companies.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Berkley Babes » Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:27 pm

I want to answer this poll as if I were a super efficient doomsday prepper, but who currently eats unhealthy meals and probably has diabetes.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Gloominary » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:47 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Gloominary wrote:Man, Karpel is on fire, sincerely impressed with the arguments he's making.
Thank you. I've been thinking about that old adage that one can judge a society by its prisons. I was thinking that one could judge a society by the way it deals with currently marginal ideas. One of the reasons I come back to Chomsky. He contrasted a totalitarian system's way of dealing with dissent, alternative news, criticism of government policy: they close the newpaper, arrest the person, put them in an asylum - with modern oligarchical societies where you marginalize/fringify problematic information, opinion. It is allowed to be presented and generally the people putting the information out are not imprisoned (they may end up subject to litigation, which can be dangerous, and whisteblowers are in danger in a variety of ways including prison). But it is marginalized. Believers are labelled, negatively around intelligence, sanity and moral nature, often without really dealing with the points they raise. Further when the more core media mentions their points of view, they choose the weaker arguments. Rarely are the strongest advocates of minority opinions given a real platform. This included Chomsky. Who though an expert beyond most in things like Middle Eastern foreign policy, was almost never allowed on programs, for example on TV, and often given very little time. When mainstream ideas are presented there need not be the opposing viewpoint, when an alternative view is presented, there will always be a mainstream balancing view presented. This all leads to to a radical marginalization of views and a false sense of consensus.

Precisely because of the way alternative views are treated and absolutely whisteblowers many people are afraid to say they believe in the marginalized position. Further it just seems obvious to most people that these are kooks or worse.

Now Chomsky wrote the Manufacturing of Consent, in 1988. the mass media have radically consolidated since that time. They are owned by much fewer companies. And by the way this does not all require everyone being in on a conspiracy. If you package the positions right it just seems obvious, even to people who have the skill set to dig and find out if it is obvious. They are under the same social and not appearnig stupid or evil pressures other citizens are.

The dumb thing is that educated people who think conspiracies are bullshit per se and the experts know what they are doing (their heuristic), should notice that EVEN if this is correct, the way they treat marginalized views is not working. They can include blaming themselves for Trump who they hate. I don't like him, but I see his support as critical of the status quo and the democratic party undermined campaign of Sanders as a very large number of people considering the traditional candidates perverse. Sanders' campaign was undermined by supporters of HC and they went against DNC policy and I think even the law to make sure she won the nomination. A very large part of both the left and the right were in agreement that the traditional candidates were against their interests. To put that another way: that there is a systematic fundamental problem.

Now everyone is sighing that its great that a real pro, center corporate Wall st. candidate is back in office.

A responsible society would treat marginalized ideas with respect. Invite the best proponants to debate. In another thread of perhaps this one I present the petition of 50,000 doctors who thought there were serious problems with current covid policy and measures. I have presented other experts in the medical field who agree or have overlapping criticism. Kennedy's website I have linked to also where he ALWAYS presents scientific research to back up his criticisms and where he shows HOW vaccines actually get approved, for example, and by whom. That a majority has at times had stocks in the industry they are supposed to regulate for example. And other revolving door processes and lobbying etc.

So, people can come along and say 'the experts have consensus'. And I understand. It sure looks like that if you watch tv news or read an MSM paper. But it is simply not true. And the experts themselves may tend not, for example, to be experts in how a medical technology actually becomes approved and developed. So, when they defend that product they think they are defending SCIENCE as if politics and money are not enormous guiding factors.

Twenty years ago the idea that everything we do is monitored would have been laughed at by experts. Now we know it is true. But notice how it went from not being possible to being true to being forgotten. Why? because it got inevitablized by the media. And people are habituated in not looking at and thinking about things that would be scary.

A healthy society will welcome critique and not resort to precisely the irrational behavior they attribute to the fringe: ad homs, character assassination, appeals to incredulity, assertions instead of reasoned arguments, insults (different from ad homs)....and they engage in these when the marginalized idea are dealt with at all. Since they assume they are on the side of reason and science, they don't really have to reason well or know much about epistemology or current oligharchical practice. They are not right team, and even if they reach their own conclusions via intuition, it's ok because their team has experts who follow reason and science.

It's a poor way for a society to learn. And Obama, often seen as the more rational of recent presidents, was one of the harshest on whisteblowers. Or his administration was. Worse than Bush.

I remember when the Left thought there were systematic problems. Not liberals so much, but the left.
Nowadays it is the Right, not so much conservatives, who think there are systematic problems, though Bernie's campaign offers some hope the Left has a faction that gets it or never lost it.

I don't know if Chomsky notices how manufacturing consent is happening now around issues that might be tricky for a lefty to side with. He's generally anticonspiracy theorist, though ironically is seen as one by the mainstream media. It's tough man, you go outside the box, it must be scary to go even further.

I remember being introduced to Chomsky by my hippie teacher Mr. Fowler towards the end of high school.
Before that I knew almost nothing about philosophy and politics.
That was a real awakening for me.
Later in my mid 20s I found more hardcore conspiracy theorists, libertarian and nationalist thinkers online.
That was another real awakening.
I still agree with Chomsky on lots of things, on war, on many aspects of the economy and on freedom of speech.
However, on other issues, I find myself siding with libertarians and nationalists more.
I know Chomsky's been critical of the left's identity politics, but not sure how he feels about covid.
I find that while libertarian socialists and democratic socialists are critical of sociocultural progressivism, they're not critical of gun control and scientific authoritarianism.
It's pretty rare, especially these days, for a democratic socialist to be fully or mostly socioculturally libertarian, usually they want a great deal of social control in at least some areas.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Gloominary » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:55 am

Zero_Sum wrote:I'm an advocate of herd immunity. 8) I'm also one of those guys that doesn't like taking medicine for anything unless I really have to. I believe in natural healing and not being dependent on others or medicines.

I certainly don't trust today's governments to inject me with anything as I have no faith, confidence, or trust in them whatsoever.

I have no trust, faith, and confidence in large corporations either especially that of for profit pharmaceutical companies.

Same here.
For me, whatever you want to call it, allopathy, mainstream or scientific medicine, is a last resort.
I try to heal myself by eating right, exercising, getting enough fresh air and sunshine.
Using and wearing natural products, not exposing myself to harmful EMFs.
I see allopathy as a style of medicine, rather than as ahistorical, timeless or transcendent.
It's a way, there are many ways.
If we go too far in this medical direction, it'll be harmful.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Berkley Babes » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:56 am

I believe in conspiracy, in that people to come together to conspire. On this issue however, I'm more surprised at peoples insisting on being near each other.

It's like this, diabetes can be completely cured by diet alone. But people insist on eating what they want, so they need medicine.

If people insist in dining out, take the vaccine. Or get sick for the sake of your idea of what freedom is.

I speak as a hermit who has never got the flu in my adult life.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:03 am

Gloominary wrote:I remember being introduced to Chomsky by my hippie teacher Mr. Fowler towards the end of high school.
Before that I knew almost nothing about philosophy and politics.
That was a real awakening for me.
Later in my mid 20s I found more hardcore conspiracy theorists, libertarian and nationalist thinkers online.
That was another real awakening.
I still agree with Chomsky on lots of things, on war, on many aspects of the economy and on freedom of speech.
However, on other issues, I find myself siding with libertarians and nationalists more.
I know Chomsky's been critical of the left's identity politics, but not sure how he feels about covid.
I find that while libertarian socialists and democratic socialists are critical of sociocultural progressivism, they're not critical of gun control and scientific authoritarianism.
It's pretty rare, especially these days, for a democratic socialist to be fully or mostly socioculturally libertarian, usually they want a great deal of social control in at least some areas.

I pick and choose tools and ideas from thinkers. So, it's not like I follow Chomsky, or anyone. It never occurred to me to see what he though of Covid and a quick look now it seems he is with the program. He was important for showing that even with a free press (quote unquote) and more rare absolute censorship, you can still frame every single idea and paint some ideas, even correct ones, as crazy or unimportant fringe. That is, it is just as if not more effective than direct censorship. I also appreciated his corporate critique and foreign policy critique. He used to get labled anti-semitic because of his criticism of Israel, him being Jewish notwithstanding. That was also a nice teaching moment for me. He had to be a self-hating jew if he criticized Israeli policy. But there are lot of other people and groups that inspire me and I have a hard time feeling confident saying 'this economic system X would work'. I wish I knew what system would work the best, but given we are raised into thinking and desiring so many things, this affects what will work, at least now.

But one reason I mention Chomsky here is because I want to remind the Left (and some degree the Right) that conspiracy theories are not a political position. They used to be common even central in the Left. The Left wants to label these at a category level. If you are a conspiracy theorist you are Right Wing, racist, etc. Whereas you can have any political affiliation or tendency BUT have noticed patterns that indiciate systematic abuse and agendas that are not being openly admitted. (though they are openly admitted more than one would believe). And then to a lesser degree remind the right that this does not come down to some simple Right good, Left bad sheep dichotomy. So, I am using him to chastize oversimplifications on 'both' sides. (I put 'both' in scare quotes since I think the whole two sides thing is radically oversimplified.

And I'll take a conceptual tool from anyone, regardless of their political affiliation.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Gloominary » Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:05 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Gloominary wrote:I remember being introduced to Chomsky by my hippie teacher Mr. Fowler towards the end of high school.
Before that I knew almost nothing about philosophy and politics.
That was a real awakening for me.
Later in my mid 20s I found more hardcore conspiracy theorists, libertarian and nationalist thinkers online.
That was another real awakening.
I still agree with Chomsky on lots of things, on war, on many aspects of the economy and on freedom of speech.
However, on other issues, I find myself siding with libertarians and nationalists more.
I know Chomsky's been critical of the left's identity politics, but not sure how he feels about covid.
I find that while libertarian socialists and democratic socialists are critical of sociocultural progressivism, they're not critical of gun control and scientific authoritarianism.
It's pretty rare, especially these days, for a democratic socialist to be fully or mostly socioculturally libertarian, usually they want a great deal of social control in at least some areas.

I pick and choose tools and ideas from thinkers. So, it's not like I follow Chomsky, or anyone. It never occurred to me to see what he though of Covid and a quick look now it seems he is with the program.

I'm not surprised.
From my experience, it's rare to find someone firmly on the left fiscally who's both critical of progressive identity politics and attempts to curtail freethought on the one hand, and critical of technocracy and gun control on the other.

He was important for showing that even with a free press (quote unquote) and more rare absolute censorship, you can still frame every single idea and paint some ideas, even correct ones, as crazy or unimportant fringe. That is, it is just as if not more effective than direct censorship. I also appreciated his corporate critique and foreign policy critique. He used to get labled anti-semitic because of his criticism of Israel, him being Jewish notwithstanding. That was also a nice teaching moment for me. He had to be a self-hating jew if he criticized Israeli policy. But there are lot of other people and groups that inspire me and I have a hard time feeling confident saying 'this economic system X would work'. I wish I knew what system would work the best, but given we are raised into thinking and desiring so many things, this affects what will work, at least now.

Chomsky did great work in those areas.

But one reason I mention Chomsky here is because I want to remind the Left (and some degree the Right) that conspiracy theories are not a political position. They used to be common even central in the Left. The Left wants to label these at a category level. If you are a conspiracy theorist you are Right Wing, racist, etc. Whereas you can have any political affiliation or tendency BUT have noticed patterns that indiciate systematic abuse and agendas that are not being openly admitted. (though they are openly admitted more than one would believe). And then to a lesser degree remind the right that this does not come down to some simple Right good, Left bad sheep dichotomy. So, I am using him to chastize oversimplifications on 'both' sides. (I put 'both' in scare quotes since I think the whole two sides thing is radically oversimplified.

And I'll take a conceptual tool from anyone, regardless of their political affiliation.

What it means to be left and right changes every generation.
The young are less aware of that than the old.
Showing them that could increase their intellectual openness.
The left has some valuable critiques of the ruling class and the right has some valuable critiques, and they're not mutually exclusive, you can employ them both.
We both know the ruling class aren't left or right, and that they play left and right off against each other.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Sculptor » Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:00 pm

Berkley Babes wrote:I believe in conspiracy, in that people to come together to conspire. On this issue however, I'm more surprised at peoples insisting on being near each other.

It's like this, diabetes can be completely cured by diet alone.

No. Most cases of Type Two can be treated with diet.
But not Type One.
But people insist on eating what they want, so they need medicine.

If people insist in dining out, take the vaccine. Or get sick for the sake of your idea of what freedom is.

I speak as a hermit who has never got the flu in my adult life.


Being a hermit may well make you VERY vulnerable were you to venture out.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Berkley Babes » Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:13 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Berkley Babes wrote:I believe in conspiracy, in that people to come together to conspire. On this issue however, I'm more surprised at peoples insisting on being near each other.

It's like this, diabetes can be completely cured by diet alone.

No. Most cases of Type Two can be treated with diet.
But not Type One.
But people insist on eating what they want, so they need medicine.

If people insist in dining out, take the vaccine. Or get sick for the sake of your idea of what freedom is.

I speak as a hermit who has never got the flu in my adult life.


Being a hermit may well make you VERY vulnerable were you to venture out.


You are wrong about Type One. People with a pre-disposition to type One can avoid diabetes on the strictest diet. Raymond Kurzweil is an example.

How does not going out make me very vulnerable if I only go to the food store? I said I haven't had the flu. And I never got a flu vaccine. I am advising people to stay away from people OVER the vacccine. But if they can't resisit being social, get the vaccine. Or live out your little death wish.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:19 pm

Gloominary wrote:What it means to be left and right changes every generation.
The young are less aware of that than the old.
Showing them that could increase their intellectual openness.
The left has some valuable critiques of the ruling class and the right has some valuable critiques, and they're not mutually exclusive, you can employ them both.
We both know the ruling class aren't left or right, and that they play left and right off against each other.

It's a bit of a tangent but what you wrote and what we are discussing reminded me of....

People do not really change as long as they try to be what they are not, but only when they fully identify with what they truly are.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby iambiguous » Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:07 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Gloominary wrote:What it means to be left and right changes every generation.
The young are less aware of that than the old.
Showing them that could increase their intellectual openness.
The left has some valuable critiques of the ruling class and the right has some valuable critiques, and they're not mutually exclusive, you can employ them both.
We both know the ruling class aren't left or right, and that they play left and right off against each other.

It's a bit of a tangent but what you wrote and what we are discussing reminded me of....

People do not really change as long as they try to be what they are not, but only when they fully identify with what they truly are.



Okay, given a set of circumstances in which Karpel Tunnel has thought all of this through, what behaviors will he choose based on who he thinks he is. And on how he thinks he came to believe this.

What does it mean to him here to make a distinction between who he is not and who he truly is?

Given his "visceral, intuitive, deep-down-inside-me" Self.

Is it more reasonable and virtuous to be a leftist or a rightist?

How is he not, like me, fractured and fragmented here?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby iambiguous » Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:08 pm

duplicate post
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby d0rkyd00d » Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:35 pm

Gloominary wrote:d00d

That irresponsibility rest on how many perceived risks these treatments pose, and the risk COVID poses. When you say it is irresponsible to you, it is relevant to know how much experience and training you have with these technologies to adequately assess risk.

While laymen are not qualified to produce vaxxines, as consumers/taxpayers, we're all qualified to adequately assess their risk/'benefit'.
The producer doesn't get to bypass/circumvent the consumer/taxpayer, the producer isn't an authority/superior, it's buyer/taxpayer beware.
So do your own research, think for yourself.


Man if I had the interest in becoming a scientist and research COVID-19 myself, I probably wouldn't be posting on these forums. That's why I have to outsource some of my "knowledge" about a subject. Even if it's an imperfect choice, it's better than throwing darts blindfolded IMO.
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
-Bertrand Russell
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Gloominary » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:46 pm

d0rkyd00d wrote:
Gloominary wrote:d00d

That irresponsibility rest on how many perceived risks these treatments pose, and the risk COVID poses. When you say it is irresponsible to you, it is relevant to know how much experience and training you have with these technologies to adequately assess risk.

While laymen are not qualified to produce vaxxines, as consumers/taxpayers, we're all qualified to adequately assess their risk/'benefit'.
The producer doesn't get to bypass/circumvent the consumer/taxpayer, the producer isn't an authority/superior, it's buyer/taxpayer beware.
So do your own research, think for yourself.


Man if I had the interest in becoming a scientist and research COVID-19 myself, I probably wouldn't be posting on these forums. That's why I have to outsource some of my "knowledge" about a subject. Even if it's an imperfect choice, it's better than throwing darts blindfolded IMO.

When I run out of time and energy to critically research, I'm more reluctant to outsource my knowledge to these people than you, for reasons I, Karpel and others have already given on this thread and others.
All I know for sure is the vast majority of us are less free and poorer than we were last year.
Meanwhile the ruling class are richer and more powerful, no one disputes that.
I've yet to see any compelling evidence any of these measures are necessary.

The producer is not above the consumer, their opinion is equal to mine.
They're an expert in how to manufacture vaxxes, but I'm an expert in what's right for me.
The politicians and technocrats are not above the people, their opinion is beneath ours.
In the main, while they can make recommendations, they ought to carry out our will.
We're the experts in what's right for us.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:19 pm

iambiguous wrote:Okay, given a set of circumstances in which Karpel Tunnel has thought all of this through, what behaviors will he choose based on who he thinks he is. And on how he thinks he came to believe this.

What does it mean to him here to make a distinction between who he is not and who he truly is?

Given his "visceral, intuitive, deep-down-inside-me" Self.

Is it more reasonable and virtuous to be a leftist or a rightist?

How is he not, like me, fractured and fragmented here?
I can undertand, really, how my use of that quote in that context is not entirely clear. But man what silly assumptions you've made. And, yes, you asked questions but the questions come from the same assumptions. Such confidence in your own interpretation. The penultimate question is the funniest hallucination. AS if I said that I could demonstrate that...lol. That one took some real work.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby d0rkyd00d » Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:34 pm

Gloominary wrote:
d0rkyd00d wrote:When I run out of time and energy to critically research, I'm more reluctant to outsource my knowledge to these people than you, for reasons I, Karpel and others have already given on this thread and others.
All I know for sure is the vast majority of us are less free and poorer than we were last year.
Meanwhile the ruling class are richer and more powerful, no one disputes that.
I've yet to see any compelling evidence any of these measures are necessary.

The producer is not above the consumer, their opinion is equal to mine.
They're an expert in how to manufacture vaxxes, but I'm an expert in what's right for me.
The politicians and technocrats are not above the people, their opinion is beneath ours.
In the main, while they can make recommendations, they ought to carry out our will.
We're the experts in what's right for us.


Maybe. Or perhaps, as I suspect, you just outsource your knowledge more haphazardly, less consistently.
I'm not sure what you mean by "I'm an expert in what's right for me," but I think I disagree. If you suddenly had slurred speech and a limp, you wouldn't walk into the ER insisting on your diagnosis and how they are going to treat you.
You say "opinion," why not say "expertise?" That is a more accurate word, and reveals the absurdity of your statement.
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby obsrvr524 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:50 pm

d0rkyd00d wrote:While laymen are not qualified to produce vaxxines, as consumers/taxpayers, we're all qualified to adequately assess their risk/'benefit'.

I don't believe that is true. We are NOT in a position to know enough of what is really happening so we cannot really assess our real risk/benefit - we don't know how much deception is going on.

d0rkyd00d wrote:The producer doesn't get to bypass/circumvent the consumer/taxpayer, the producer isn't an authority/superior, it's buyer/taxpayer beware.
So do your own research, think for yourself.

Yes "think for yourself" but also that means become aware of how much deception, whether intentional or not, is being cast all around you - whether due to stupidity or malice.

I suspect that you believe that you have more sight, power, and control over your situation than you really do.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby d0rkyd00d » Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:56 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:
d0rkyd00d wrote:While laymen are not qualified to produce vaxxines, as consumers/taxpayers, we're all qualified to adequately assess their risk/'benefit'.

I don't believe that is true. We are NOT in a position to know enough of what is really happening so we cannot really assess our real risk/benefit - we don't know how much deception is going on.

d0rkyd00d wrote:The producer doesn't get to bypass/circumvent the consumer/taxpayer, the producer isn't an authority/superior, it's buyer/taxpayer beware.
So do your own research, think for yourself.

Yes "think for yourself" but also that means become aware of how much deception, whether intentional or not, is being cast all around you - whether due to stupidity or malice.

I suspect that you believe that you have more sight, power, and control over your situation than you really do.


Your claim is self-defeating, an appeal to ignorance. How would one know there is any level of risk or deception if we "aren't in a position to know enough of what is really happening"?
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Gloominary » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:00 am

d0rkyd00d wrote:
Gloominary wrote:
d0rkyd00d wrote:When I run out of time and energy to critically research, I'm more reluctant to outsource my knowledge to these people than you, for reasons I, Karpel and others have already given on this thread and others.
All I know for sure is the vast majority of us are less free and poorer than we were last year.
Meanwhile the ruling class are richer and more powerful, no one disputes that.
I've yet to see any compelling evidence any of these measures are necessary.

The producer is not above the consumer, their opinion is equal to mine.
They're an expert in how to manufacture vaxxes, but I'm an expert in what's right for me.
The politicians and technocrats are not above the people, their opinion is beneath ours.
In the main, while they can make recommendations, they ought to carry out our will.
We're the experts in what's right for us.


Maybe. Or perhaps, as I suspect, you just outsource your knowledge more haphazardly, less consistently.
I'm not sure what you mean by "I'm an expert in what's right for me," but I think I disagree. If you suddenly had slurred speech and a limp, you wouldn't walk into the ER insisting on your diagnosis and how they are going to treat you.
You say "opinion," why not say "expertise?" That is a more accurate word, and reveals the absurdity of your statement.

Grassroots sources of into are better in some ways than top-down sources, we've already covered this.
Sometimes I go the doctor, sometimes I don't, sometimes I take their advice, sometimes I don't.
Under extraordinary circumstances, if I feel like I'm dying, I may place my life in their hands, I'm in no condition to take care myself if I'm dying, someone has to take care of me and it may as well be them.
Sure, I have expertise in what's right for me.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby d0rkyd00d » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:09 am

Gloominary wrote:Grassroots sources of into are better in some ways than top-down sources, we've already covered this.
Sometimes I go the doctor, sometimes I don't, sometimes I take their advice, sometimes I don't.
Under extraordinary circumstances, if I feel like I'm dying, I may place my life in their hands, I'm in no condition to take care myself if I'm dying, someone has to take care of me and it may as well be them.
Sure, I have expertise in what's right for me.


Again, assuming you aren't a physician, you don't have more expertise when it comes to the medical treatment of a human (including yourself) than a physician.
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
-Bertrand Russell
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby Gloominary » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:12 am

d0rkyd00d wrote:
Gloominary wrote:Grassroots sources of into are better in some ways than top-down sources, we've already covered this.
Sometimes I go the doctor, sometimes I don't, sometimes I take their advice, sometimes I don't.
Under extraordinary circumstances, if I feel like I'm dying, I may place my life in their hands, I'm in no condition to take care myself if I'm dying, someone has to take care of me and it may as well be them.
Sure, I have expertise in what's right for me.


Again, assuming you aren't a physician, you don't have more expertise when it comes to the medical treatment of a human (including yourself) than a physician.

I have expertise in how good/bad their medicines and services are for me by virtue of being in my body.
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Re: Mandatory Vaccines/Restrictions Poll

Postby obsrvr524 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:14 am

d0rkyd00d wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:
d0rkyd00d wrote:While laymen are not qualified to produce vaxxines, as consumers/taxpayers, we're all qualified to adequately assess their risk/'benefit'.

I don't believe that is true. We are NOT in a position to know enough of what is really happening so we cannot really assess our real risk/benefit - we don't know how much deception is going on.


Your claim is self-defeating, an appeal to ignorance. How would one know there is any level of risk or deception if we "aren't in a position to know enough of what is really happening"?

You exaggerate.

I said that you cannot know the reality. And that is because you cannot know the extent of the deception. But that does NOT say that you don't try. Just because you can't live forever doesn't mean that you don't try. By trying to understand where the deception is coming from, you can apply appropriate suspicion. And with that on your side, you can end up being right more often than wrong. You never know for certain. You have to just keep guessing very carefully and keep your suspicions appropriate.

Life requires that you try to avoid danger. It doesn't require that you know where it is.


For example -
d0rkyd00d wrote:Again, assuming you aren't a physician, you don't have more expertise when it comes to the medical treatment of a human (including yourself) than a physician.

That is not always true. I have found that my physician was more wrong than I was on several occasions. I have to balance my own degree of confidence in each issue with the probability that he will be more right.

And didn't you say that YOU know more about what is good for you than they? Or did I misunderstand that?
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