What Trump Voters Got Right

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What Trump Voters Got Right

Postby d0rkyd00d » Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:13 pm

I had to do a lot of soul searching after the 2016 election, after discovering that most of my family voted for Trump (my sister and I being the only ones who didn't).

No one in my family, with the exception of my sister, has a college degree. My dad didn't even finish high school. I went to college for one semester before dropping out and entering the workforce instead. This is all to say, I by no means come from the "coastal elites."

My family has also been one that has always been very kind, loving, and accepting. My mom raised me to never disparage others, to always make anybody feel welcome regardless of race, nationality, or creed, to be compassionate and empathetic. So it was quite a surprise to be presented with the stark contrast between how Trump supporters were being portrayed, vs. my family whom I know well and love deeply.

To keep this somewhat brief, the conclusion I've drawn over the past four years is that, sadly, my family and many others have been duped: yet, I think it has been a mistake to place this blame directly on the shoulders of those who have been swindled. Most, if not all of this anger, should be directed towards the swindlers. The most tragic reality of our current state is that we have in fact managed to be turned against one another, I would imagine to the delight of those who push the blame on minorities and the spectre of some undefined version of "socialism." With the nation divided, the attention cannot be turned towards those responsible for the degradation of society that my grandfathers fought and nearly died for in WW2.

The greatest trick the devil played was making the poor believe their misfortune could be attributed to the colored man. While the ultra wealthy continue to thrive from hidden tax shelters, tax loopholes, four decades of some of the lowest marginal tax rates in U.S. history, and de-regulation, the lowest skilled and low wage workers have watched as their labor has been devalued drastically. Nobody who believes trickle-down economics is bullshit should be voting for Trump; and yet, my poor, uneducated and severely underemployed family have put their vote in exactly that (although I have spoken with some of them, who didn't understand this connection at all).

What Trump voters understand at some level is that they've been fucked. I think of my parents, who have undoubtedly found it increasingly difficult to scrape by and survive, when only three decades ago we lived as a family of four on my stepdad's single income at a low-skill employer (that was part of a union). I think of the millions who look around and don't understand why things have changed. This is demonstrably a population of low skilled and low educated laborers. I cannot in good conscience blame them for misdiagnosing the problem, or even for not understanding the rationale behind why they are being deceived: after all, the dollars that could have gone towards improving American education and circumventing this issue in the first place instead went to the lifestyles of the rich and famous. I think of rural America that overwhelmingly voted for Trump, a population that is not incorrect to feel completely disconnected, under-represented, and excluded from the national conversation due to the greater influence/perceived needs of densely populated urban areas. Again, they are not wrong in their hunch that they've been neglected, and without addressing their legitimate concerns, we will not move closer to resolving this issue.

So the challenge lies before us: how can we bridge the divide between Americans that has been created by the wealthy elite, who have blamed everything but the main culprit: their siphoning of wealth from the middle class? Truly, I believe all of humanity's conscience needs to turn towards the drastic wealth disparity that has crept up for the past four decades, and with the advent of social media and globalization, is now on display like never before. It seems perhaps like a new political party would be needed to achieve this, which seems so outlandish at this point as to be impossible. What else can we do?
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
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Re: What Trump Voters Got Right

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:50 pm

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

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Re: What Trump Voters Got Right

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:54 pm

Trump actually cares about America and the commonwealth, and you have the audacity to turn on that?

Sounds like you are drinking your own MSM kool-aid.

Go look at Hunter's laptop. Or even a brief search of how this election has been stolen. Sounds like you are demoralized by the Communist party, just like they want you to be. You should resist the programming. Your family is right.
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Re: What Trump Voters Got Right

Postby d0rkyd00d » Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:06 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:Trump actually cares about America and the commonwealth, and you have the audacity to turn on that?

Sounds like you are drinking your own MSM kool-aid.

Go look at Hunter's laptop. Or even a brief search of how this election has been stolen. Sounds like you are demoralized by the Communist party, just like they want you to be. You should resist the programming. Your family is right.


Hello Urwrong! I would be happy to engage in conversation, so long as it is relevant to my OP. You are also free to start your own topic if you would like to discuss these other subjects you've introduced!
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
-Bertrand Russell
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Re: What Trump Voters Got Right

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:07 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:Trump actually cares about America and the commonwealth, and you have the audacity to turn on that?

Sounds like you are drinking your own MSM kool-aid.

Go look at Hunter's laptop. Or even a brief search of how this election has been stolen. Sounds like you are demoralized by the Communist party, just like they want you to be. You should resist the programming. Your family is right.


K: just about word you wrote was wrong.... you are the one drinking the cool aid.....
but you don't have the intelligence or the ability to see beyond your foundational
beliefs.....you belong to a cult.. and dorrky does have the intelligence
and the ability to go beyond their family cult beliefs, unlike yourself....

we should always, ALWAYS applaud any attempt to grow beyond their
family beliefs.. to grow their own beliefs is the highest goal of
any human being... and I applaud that....you could learn something.....

and the question still arises, what is to be done?

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Re: What Trump Voters Got Right

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:11 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:K: just about word you wrote was wrong.... you are the one drinking the cool aid.....
but you don't have the intelligence or the ability to see beyond your foundational
beliefs.....you belong to a cult......

just about word you wrote was wrong.... you are the one drinking the cool aid.....
but you don't have the intelligence or the ability to see beyond your foundational
beliefs.....you belong to a cult.....

Peter Kropotkin wrote:we should always, ALWAYS applaud any attempt to grow beyond their
family beliefs..

Even if they were actually right.
- Especially then?

There is only one way to grow from being right.
And that is being wrong - "left" - behind.
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Re: What Trump Voters Got Right

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:25 pm

d0rkyd00d wrote:
Urwrongx1000 wrote:Trump actually cares about America and the commonwealth, and you have the audacity to turn on that?

Sounds like you are drinking your own MSM kool-aid.

Go look at Hunter's laptop. Or even a brief search of how this election has been stolen. Sounds like you are demoralized by the Communist party, just like they want you to be. You should resist the programming. Your family is right.


Hello Urwrong! I would be happy to engage in conversation, so long as it is relevant to my OP. You are also free to start your own topic if you would like to discuss these other subjects you've introduced!


Just cover your ears and yell, the commie way.

This is why we don't even try serious discussion with you all anymore.

Emotional maturity is required for that.

Best we can do is point out the staggering lack of seriousness in your thought.

Like when you declare your whole family was duped, but then when someone accuses you of being brainwashed, that is somehow a radically new concept being introduced into the conversation.

Keep kicking.
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Re: What Trump Voters Got Right

Postby WendyDarling » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:29 pm

Maybe I should start the MAGA party, separate from Rinos. Great idea, thanks!
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Re: What Trump Voters Got Right

Postby d0rkyd00d » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:06 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:
d0rkyd00d wrote:
Urwrongx1000 wrote:Trump actually cares about America and the commonwealth, and you have the audacity to turn on that?

Sounds like you are drinking your own MSM kool-aid.

Go look at Hunter's laptop. Or even a brief search of how this election has been stolen. Sounds like you are demoralized by the Communist party, just like they want you to be. You should resist the programming. Your family is right.


Hello Urwrong! I would be happy to engage in conversation, so long as it is relevant to my OP. You are also free to start your own topic if you would like to discuss these other subjects you've introduced!


Just cover your ears and yell, the commie way.

This is why we don't even try serious discussion with you all anymore.

Emotional maturity is required for that.

Best we can do is point out the staggering lack of seriousness in your thought.

Like when you declare your whole family was duped, but then when someone accuses you of being brainwashed, that is somehow a radically new concept being introduced into the conversation.

Keep kicking.


Oof.

Any takers on discussing the OP?
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
-Bertrand Russell
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Re: What Trump Voters Got Right

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:20 pm

d0rkyd00d wrote:Any takers on discussing the OP?

I'm sure that at this point everyone here has heard all of that before and have fallen into two camps -

Those who hate Mr Trump, the US Constitution, and the USA - the "Communists"
Those who love Mr Trump, the US Constitution, and the USA - the "Constitutionalists"

It is a war that began and ends covering the entire world. It is not about Mr Trump at all. It is a world wide war game being played out right now as we watch -

US Constitution versus world authoritarian Communism.

Obviously you have been led into the Communist camp - pick your color and flag.
Last edited by obsrvr524 on Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What Trump Voters Got Right

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:24 pm

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Re: What Trump Voters Got Right

Postby Mr Reasonable » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:49 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:
d0rkyd00d wrote:Any takers on discussing the OP?

I'm sure that at this point everyone here has heard all of that before and have fallen into two camps -

Those who hate Mr Trump, the US Constitution, and the USA - the "Communists"
Those who love Mr Trump, the US Constitution, and the USA - the "Constitutionalists"

It is a war that began and ends covering the entire world. It is not about Mr Trump at all. It is a world wide war game being played out right now as we watch -

US Constitution versus world authoritarian Communism.

Obviously you have been led into the Communist camp - pick your color and flag.



u should start a thread about the emoluments clause of the constitution
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.


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Re: What Trump Voters Got Right

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:13 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:
d0rkyd00d wrote:Any takers on discussing the OP?

I'm sure that at this point everyone here has heard all of that before and have fallen into two camps -

Those who hate Mr Trump, the US Constitution, and the USA - the "Communists"
Those who love Mr Trump, the US Constitution, and the USA - the "Constitutionalists"

It is a war that began and ends covering the entire world. It is not about Mr Trump at all. It is a world wide war game being played out right now as we watch -

US Constitution versus world authoritarian Communism.

Obviously you have been led into the Communist camp - pick your color and flag.



u should start a thread about the emoluments clause of the constitution

You wouldn't like what I revealed. And then you would merely continue with your distortions of narrative.

I am often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color but I won't endlessly argue with him about it.

I think I should put that in my "signature".
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Re: What Trump Voters Got Right

Postby Mr Reasonable » Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:16 pm

who hurt u
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.


Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.
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Re: What Trump Voters Got Right

Postby d0rkyd00d » Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:20 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:
d0rkyd00d wrote:Any takers on discussing the OP?

I'm sure that at this point everyone here has heard all of that before and have fallen into two camps -

Those who hate Mr Trump, the US Constitution, and the USA - the "Communists"
Those who love Mr Trump, the US Constitution, and the USA - the "Constitutionalists"

It is a war that began and ends covering the entire world. It is not about Mr Trump at all. It is a world wide war game being played out right now as we watch -

US Constitution versus world authoritarian Communism.

Obviously you have been led into the Communist camp - pick your color and flag.


Is there any part of my OP you agree with? I would imagine you disagree with supply-side economics being the main culprit?
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
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Re: What Trump Voters Got Right

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:32 pm

d0rkyd00d wrote:Is there any part of my OP you agree with? I would imagine you disagree with supply-side economics being the main culprit?

Let me say "almost nothing".

And as inferred before, the whole supply-side versus demand-side economics is a divisive false dichotomy. Without demand a supply is useless. Without a supply a demand is useless.

At any one time there might be more of one than the other. When that happens, encourage the other for maximum economic growth. That seems so obvious to me. I don't see how anyone could be confused and arguing about it.

The "culprit" is dishonesty and divisiveness in reporting to the public.
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Re: What Trump Voters Got Right

Postby d0rkyd00d » Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:58 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:
d0rkyd00d wrote:Is there any part of my OP you agree with? I would imagine you disagree with supply-side economics being the main culprit?

Let me say "almost nothing".

And as inferred before, the whole supply-side versus demand-side economics is a divisive false dichotomy. Without demand a supply is useless. Without a supply a demand is useless.

At any one time there might be more of one than the other. When that happens, encourage the other for maximum economic growth. That seems so obvious to me. I don't see how anyone could be confused and arguing about it.

The "culprit" is dishonesty and divisiveness in reporting to the public.


Hey obsrvr, thanks for the reply. I view the crux of the debate between supply vs. demand side economics to be essentially, which tide lifts more boats the highest? In other words, do more benefit when business/high earners pay less in taxes and invests back into the business, or when business is taxed at a higher rate and that extra revenue is distributed through government programs? Do you view the debate differently?
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
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Re: What Trump Voters Got Right

Postby obsrvr524 » Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:19 am

d0rkyd00d wrote:I view the crux of the debate between supply vs. demand side economics to be essentially, which tide lifts more boats the highest? In other words, do more benefit when business/high earners pay less in taxes and invests back into the business, or when business is taxed at a higher rate and that extra revenue is distributed through government programs? Do you view the debate differently?

Yes I see it a differently.

As I stated before, which "tide lifts more boats the highest" is ALWAYS imbued in which, supply or demand, is falling behind.

Whether lower taxes on businesses increases the well being of workers or not depends on a variety of things. It depends on which type of business most of all. Some businesses make their living on the suffering of others. Some businesses do not reinvest their profits into increased employment benefit. Some businesses barely profit because of trying to grow employment too much. High taxes on the latter merely kills all employment (or more often just sends the employment over seas).

I think you have to know what kind of business and what kind of environment. Can the business merely reinvest over seas as so many of the largest businesses have? They don't care about taxes.

Taxes are USED by the government to encourage businesses to obey government policies.

So the real issue is NOT about taxes or minimum wages. It is ALL about the hidden agenda of the policy makers.

From all that I have seen it is obvious that Mr Trump, despite anything else, actually promotes real benefit to Americans and as a default literally saves the entire world from authoritarian communism. It really doesn't matter if this person or that person happens to get richer from the effort - that is being petty considering the consequences.

You might notice that ALL of the major billionaires and corporations hate Mr Trump. They all contribute millions to his opponents. That is because he is actually doing what the left only claims to be in favor of doing - redistributing wealth to the citizens through job opportunities, less taxes, and less government regulation. He is "populist" - favoring the population over the wealthy elite oligarchs and corporatists.
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Re: What Trump Voters Got Right

Postby d0rkyd00d » Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:07 am

Thx for sharing that perspective obsrvr!

You touched on an interesting point here:

High taxes on the latter merely kills all employment (or more often just sends the employment over seas).


I think globalization has definitely led to the degradation of American living standards in this way: there was a time when manufacturing was done here, when many things had the "Made in America" sticker on them, and the higher quality of those items were reflected in the higher cost; however, once large companies interests' were aligned with shareholders desire for profit, the obvious move was to reduce costs by any means necessary, i.e. sending manufacturing over seas where you could pay pennies on the dollar for child labor or absolute shitty factory/production standards.

In a certain sense, I think executives, large stakeholders (i.e. mutual funds), and company boards sold America's well being and prosperity out from under the feet of its citizens to enrich themselves and a very few other major beneficiaries. What are your thoughts on that?
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
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Re: What Trump Voters Got Right

Postby obsrvr524 » Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:28 am

d0rkyd00d wrote:Thx for sharing that perspective obsrvr!

You touched on an interesting point here:

High taxes on the latter merely kills all employment (or more often just sends the employment over seas).


I think globalization has definitely led to the degradation of American living standards in this way: there was a time when manufacturing was done here, when many things had the "Made in America" sticker on them, and the higher quality of those items were reflected in the higher cost; however, once large companies interests' were aligned with shareholders desire for profit, the obvious move was to reduce costs by any means necessary, i.e. sending manufacturing over seas where you could pay pennies on the dollar for child labor or absolute shitty factory/production standards.

In a certain sense, I think executives, large stakeholders (i.e. mutual funds), and company boards sold America's well being and prosperity out from under the feet of its citizens to enrich themselves and a very few other major beneficiaries. What are your thoughts on that?

I couldn't agree more.
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Re: What Trump Voters Got Right

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:21 am

ok, let us begin a little economic history lesson....

name the 5 times massive tax cuts occurred in our history?

the first one was in 1920's... you might say that kicked off
the roaring 20ties but that isn't the truth...

in 1918, the top rate of taxes was increased to 77% of income over
one million dollars.. to finance the first world war....
but as the years passed the top marginal tax rate was
reduced to 58% by 1922, to 25% by 1925 and to 24% in 1929...
but look at history.. the great depression occurred in 1929...

and during the twenties, very large segments of the population suffered
greatly, especially those involved in agriculture.. farming and dairy especially...

millions of farmers were driven off their land during the 1920's and the price of
things like milk dropped so low in price as to cause farmers to get them to dump
milk into the ground..it wasn't worth their effort to grow things if it cost them money
to grow or to milk cows... so the 20ties were already a time of great problems in
industries as in agriculture..

and note the tax cuts lead up to the Great depression...after every great tax cut
came a recession.. notice that as we go along...

the next great tax cut came in 1964... as with any tax cut, it takes roughly
two years before its effects are felt in the economy...now one might claim
that it was the tax cuts that drove the expansion of the economy in the 1960's..
but that isn't true... think about it? what else happened starting in 1964?
the broad expansion of the war in Vietnam.. it was the classic Keynesian
economic of war that drove the outbreak of economic growth.. not the tax cuts....

the next thing to notice is the economic weakness of America during the 1970's....
there was a recession from 1973-1975... less then 10 years after the tax cuts, came
deep economic problems.. and another recessions from 1979- to 1982..both came
as a result of tax cuts from 1964...note that years after the tax cuts came deep
economic problems...is a theme we shall see again.....

now the next big tax cut comes in 1981, cut the highest tax rate from
70% to 50% and the lowest tax rate from 14% to 11%..

so guess what happens a few years later... another economic weakening....
starting in 1989 lasting through 1990...after another tax cut in 1986......

so we see a pattern...after every single tax cuts comes a recession...

in 1993 came the Clinton tax increase and what happened?

the best economy in 40 years... Clinton final 4 budgets were balanced
and came with a surpluses...beginning in 1997 the debt held by the public
was pared down over 1998-2001... the only time this happened between 1970
and 2018...the single best economy over a 50 year period...

and we have bush Jr... who cut taxes in 2001 and 2003....
and then what happened? why a economic meltdown.. the 2008 depression
the worst since the Great depression...every single time a tax cut
occurred, a depression occurred, every single time...

so, we have the IQ45 tax cuts.. the single largest revision of the tax codes
in 40 years...
we will never know what the effect of those could be because of the Trump depression
of 2020....but I am willing to bet those tax cuts will do what every single tax cuts has
done... create an economic recession

but that doesn't matter because the current economic collapse...and tax cuts won't
solve a dam thing... they make matter worse.. always...

there is not one piece of evidence that tax cuts help the economy
and plenty of evidence that tax cuts in fact damage the economy....

so if tax cuts won't work, then perhaps the Clinton solution might work.....

use taxes to readjust the economy..... but instead of going from the lower and middle
classes to the highest classes, we reverse this and take taxes from the rich
and put them to the lower classes and middle class...

but this is one possible solution to our current crisis..
we have other solutions....and that is next...

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Re: What Trump Voters Got Right

Postby obsrvr524 » Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:57 am

And be sure to note that absolutely nothing else was going in the US during that entire time other than taxes going up and down and recessions and depressions. Obviously only tax rates caused the only other things going on - depressions.
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Re: What Trump Voters Got Right

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:10 am

obsrvr524 wrote:And be sure to note that absolutely nothing else was going in the US during that entire time other than taxes going up and down and recessions and depressions. Obviously only tax rates caused the only other things going on - depressions.


K: do you want me to go through the entire economic history of America over
the last 100 years? buy a book......I pointed out tax cuts.. of course there are
other factors which I am happy to acknowledge but I am talking about tax cuts,
and not the economic history of America over the last 100 years.....

Kropotkin
PK IS EVIL.....
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Re: What Trump Voters Got Right

Postby obsrvr524 » Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:15 am

Peter Kropotkin wrote:K: do you want me to go through the entire economic history of America over
the last 100 years? buy a book......I pointed out tax cuts.. of course there are
other factors which I am happy to acknowledge but I am talking about tax cuts,
and not the economic history of America over the last 100 years.....

Kropotkin

No. I don't want you to discover any truth or stop misleading or lying. I wouldn't be able to identify you so easily.
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Re: What Trump Voters Got Right

Postby Mowk » Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:22 am

Let me say "almost nothing".

And as inferred before, the whole supply-side versus demand-side economics is a divisive false dichotomy. Without demand a supply is useless. Without a supply a demand is useless.

At any one time there might be more of one than the other. When that happens, encourage the other for maximum economic growth. That seems so obvious to me. I don't see how anyone could be confused and arguing about it.

The "culprit" is dishonesty and divisiveness in reporting to the public.


a divisive false dichotomy, brilliant, they exist.

Consumerism, might it be separated from capitalism, without it's vector being mistaken for communism? Not either A or B?

Supply and demand are subject to manipulation in direction. I do not gather they are merely two sides to the swing of a pendulum.

It is also interesting there is this notion of a culprit. This culprit, suspected of the crimes of dishonesty and divisiveness in reporting. How widely are you willing to believe this is taking place? What proof did you require to accept it as reality?

Are some telling the truth and some lying or is everyone lying? Cause there seems little left we see as commonly true. All media hype aside. I have no first hand experience of an election that was corrupt. I submitted the forms to request my ballot, the jurisdiction responsible acknowledged the request and it was being processed. The jurisdiction responsible sent me a physical piece of mail confirming the process. My ballot was received when they said it would be, and the jurisdiction involved confirmed it as a record. I filled in my ballot, had it witnessed and dropped in a locked depository. The jurisdiction involved processed it as being received into record and was awaiting vetting. Two days later they recorded the ballot was vetted, it's reception and progress through the system was a matter of record, two days after the votes had been certified there was a record that my ballot had been counted, three times.

My first hand experience was there was no voter fraud. I am confident my vote counted.

Fact check, given few of us have access to the events in play first person, and all of us are at the whim of who ever is doing the reporting. So there is a fairly narrow outlet of information you will trust. My outlets have narrowed so much there is no one who's reporting I can trust. That pretty much runs the gamut right up and down the consumer/capitalism dishonesty and divisiveness I'm seeing. Claim, capitalism as an economic system creates products that are durable, consumerism does not. Capitalism would seek out ways to make less resources perform more, consumerism would not.

So Trump wants to have my ballot thrown out because our state has prohibited the counting of mail in ballots prior to elections day out of abundant caution against fraud, and he thinks because he was ahead at the start that's going to make him a winner in the end. The tortoise and the hare. Slow and steady wins the race.

Let's play the fact check game and see who is dependent on a corrupt media to corroborate their personal first had account of Trump.
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