Democrats

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Democrats

Postby Gloominary » Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:27 pm

Are democrats really the people's party?

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Re: Democrats

Postby Gloominary » Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:54 pm

So wall street has been giving significantly more money to dems than reps since the Obama admin.
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Re: Democrats

Postby Gloominary » Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:01 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Everybody always lays globalization at the feet of liberals but the corporations are the first globalists and the liberals are determined corporatists. They just makes noises about the poor and oppressed - whom they help increase, albeit slower, I repeat, than the conservatives are allowing and helping Wall st. and the corporations to increase. This giving them to high moral ground and superiority snobbiness that triggers so much of the population.

I'm not so sure the rich get richer and the poor poorer quicker under cons/reps than libs/dems.
Cons spend a bit less on the lower classes, but they tax the lower classes and small business a bit less.
Libs spend a bit more on the lower classes, but they tax the lower classes and small business a bit more, and they at least have a bit more revenue to spend on the upper classes and big business.
Taxes are progressive, but so is their circumvention.
From what I gather, the upper classes aren't taxed at a higher rate than the middleclass.
Most welfare is corporate.
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Re: Democrats

Postby Gloominary » Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:11 pm

Trump's national populist protectionism, his cracking down on illegals, offshoring and now legal immigration, hurts wall street.

Wall street wants cheap labor and inflated rents.
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Re: Democrats

Postby Gloominary » Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:00 pm

The way I see it, most dems and reps are corporatists and chickenhaws, not socialists or libertarians and peaceniks.
The so called centrists don't lean socialist or libertarian, they lean corporatist, heavily.
The vast majority of welfare is corporate, not social and big business is easily able to uncover loopholes in the sorts of regs and taxes presently in place.
The money system is also rigged, they can print a ton of money for nothing.

There appears to be real social democrats within dems, like Andrew Yang, Tulsi Gabbard and Bernie Sanders, but typically they're marginalized.
Likewise national populist protectionists like DT and libertarians like Rand Paul are typically marginalized.
Nonetheless DT managed to get in and they're willing to do whatever it takes to get him out.

If Americans want real change, either they have to support 3rd parties and independents, or at least fringe candidates within dems and reps.
The same is true of Canadians and Brits, we can't keep supporting liberal or labor and conservative and expect different results.
I'm not saying all 3rd parties and independents are equally good, some are too extreme in some ways, and we all have our preferences, but we have to start taking chances.
Voting for the same two parties decade after decade is not democracy, it's duopoly, a two party dictatorship.
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Re: Democrats

Postby Gloominary » Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:21 pm

They have social democrats fighting libertarians and nationalists, when they should be casting some of their differences aside, and fighting so called centrists i.e. corporatists, that's how we beat the divide and conquer game, by staying united.
The people have got to stop fighting one another and go after wall street.
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Re: Democrats

Postby MagsJ » Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:31 pm

Gloominary wrote:Taxes are progressive, but so is their circumvention.
From what I gather, the upper classes aren't taxed at a higher rate than the middleclass.

And therein the problem lies, for those that work long (hours) and hard, for their money Honey.

Gloominary wrote:Trump's national populist protectionism, his cracking down on illegals, offshoring and now legal immigration, hurts wall street.

Wall street wants cheap labor and inflated rents.

There’s not enough fast money to be made, in morality, so it’s not about a decent quality of life and livelihood for Nationals, but about ensuring the banks and corporations are making maximum profit with minimal taxation/loss, at the expense of everyone EVERYONE, but they.
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Re: Democrats

Postby Gloominary » Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:36 pm

Social democrats and libertarians are like two sides of the same coin.
One is for more equality of outcome, both are for more equality of opportunity in different ways, and the other is for more equality of liberty.
What they have in common is the equality bit.
Does your democracy want a lot of government, or a little?
This is one of the most basic questions you can ask a democracy, a quantitative one.

Likewise nationalism isn't our enemy (and globalism for that matter, so long as it takes a democratic form and the people aren't coerced into it), so long as it's peaceful and unoppressive.
The unelected UN bombs countries all the time, globalism doesn't necessarily = peace.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to put our citizens first and make sure whoever comes shares our values.

It's corporatism, as well as people who take identity politics, both on the left, and the right, to an extreme, I take issue with.
Radical identity politics keeps us fighting each other over scraps instead of going after the corporations.
Corporatism is a form of elitism and it's antithetical to democracy.
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Re: Democrats

Postby Gloominary » Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:43 pm

Permitting millions of illegals into your country isn't actually globalism, unless you grant them all amnesty and citizenship, it's corporatism, exploitation, cheap labor and inflated rents.
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Re: Democrats

Postby Gloominary » Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:11 pm

Good debate on immigration:

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Re: Democrats

Postby iambiguous » Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:28 pm

Sigh...

Once again: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... s#p2187045

As with Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, Joe Biden is no less embedded in this rendition of the "deep state". What on earth do you think Bernie Sanders campaign was all about!!!

It's just that some even further to the left will accuse him of "selling out" too.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Democrats

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:47 pm

The US Democrat party, the socialists of America, are frauds from top to bottom. Obama used the Hammer and scorecard program in 2012 (and probably in 2016). He used his "army" of lowlifes to run guns and a variety of other tactics to secretly destroy the US. He funded terrorism, which Mr Hidin, Lyin Biden wishes to reinstall. They use intimidation and extortion to keep the opposition silenced. They intentionally deplete resources so as to ensure that the US cannot stand.

They are the party of lying, hate, riots, exclusion, hypocrisy, and authoritarianism. In a word - Evil.

You should be able to figure that if ALL of your worst enemies desperately want you to turn to the left, without knowing anything else you should turn to the right.
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Re: Democrats

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:00 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:The US Democrat party, the socialists of America, are frauds from top to bottom. Obama used the Hammer and scorecard program in 2012 (and probably in 2016). He used his "army" of lowlifes to run guns and a variety of other tactics to secretly destroy the US. He funded terrorism, which Mr Hidin, Lyin Biden wishes to reinstall. They use intimidation and extortion to keep the opposition silenced. They intentionally deplete resources so as to ensure that the US cannot stand.

They are the party of lying, hate, riots, exclusion, hypocrisy, and authoritarianism. In a word - Evil.

You should be able to figure that if ALL of your worst enemies desperately want you to turn to the left, without knowing anything else you should turn to the right.


K: the only proof of this list of complaints about the Democratic party lies
within your own beliefs and viewpoint of the world....it doesn't exists
anywhere else....and certainly not in reality.....

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Re: Democrats

Postby Gloominary » Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:58 am

iambiguous wrote:Sigh...

Once again: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... s#p2187045

As with Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, Joe Biden is no less embedded in this rendition of the "deep state". What on earth do you think Bernie Sanders campaign was all about!!!

It's just that some even further to the left will accuse him of "selling out" too.

In my view, the deep state has always been in control of American politics, same with Canadian and British politics, it's just gotten more out of hand in the last few decades.
But the deep state isn't left or right, if we take left to mean those who lean socialist and right to be mean those who lean conservative or libertarian.
The deep state isn't an ideology so much as it is interests, the interests of, whatever you want to call them: the powers that be, the ruling class, the 1%.
If they had an ideology, it would simply be elitism, the centralization of wealth and power into fewer hands: theirs.
They use whatever works for them, and whatever works on us.
They use both libcons and republicrats, whoever'll do their bidding, unlike us fools, they don't care about brand.
Their loyalty is to themselves, their families, closest friends and allies, not brand, country, ethnicity, party, race or religion, they consider that sort of thing beneath them.

Centrism is the big lie, while there are individual and small groups of centrists, that's not what establishment libcons and republicrats are.
They're chickenhawks.
They're corporatists and monetarists.
They're in favor of mass illegal migration but not granting them amnesty and a quick path to citizenship.
They're authoritarians, I suppose when it comes to the war on drugs and terror they're more 'right', and when it comes to education, healthcare and identity politics, they're more 'left'.
I've got no problem with public healthcare, but it shouldn't be mandatory.
If they make masks and vaxxes available and you want to wear and take them, that's your business, but don't tread on me.

But above all else, their objective is to keep us divided and fighting over identity and ideology.
They present us with two tiny boxes.
They tell us we must select one box to live in, that all our values can be found in one of them.
Then we're told the other box is at best not that good and at worst evil.
They have us fighting over this or that platform, meanwhile little or none of it is actually on the table, what's on the table is again, elitism, lots and lots of goodies for them, and little or nothing for us.
We will never unite as a people until we abandon the establishment in droves.
Until we start thinking for ourselves and stop being so tribal.
The financiers own the so called 'middle' most of all.
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Re: Democrats

Postby Gloominary » Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:19 am

MagsJ wrote:
Gloominary wrote:Taxes are progressive, but so is their circumvention.
From what I gather, the upper classes aren't taxed at a higher rate than the middleclass.

And therein the problem lies, for those that work long (hours) and hard, for their money Honey.

Gloominary wrote:Trump's national populist protectionism, his cracking down on illegals, offshoring and now legal immigration, hurts wall street.

Wall street wants cheap labor and inflated rents.

There’s not enough fast money to be made, in morality, so it’s not about a decent quality of life and livelihood for Nationals, but about ensuring the banks and corporations are making maximum profit with minimal taxation/loss, at the expense of everyone EVERYONE, but they.

Right on
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Re: Democrats

Postby MagsJ » Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:36 pm

Gloominary wrote:
MagsJ wrote:
Gloominary wrote:Taxes are progressive, but so is their circumvention.
From what I gather, the upper classes aren't taxed at a higher rate than the middleclass.

And therein the problem lies, for those that work long (hours) and hard, for their money Honey.

Gloominary wrote:Trump's national populist protectionism, his cracking down on illegals, offshoring and now legal immigration, hurts wall street.

Wall street wants cheap labor and inflated rents.

There’s not enough fast money to be made, in morality, so it’s not about a decent quality of life and livelihood for Nationals, but about ensuring the banks and corporations are making maximum profit with minimal taxation/loss, at the expense of everyone EVERYONE, but they.

Right on

Lol

Banks, becoming Banks again, might just become ‘a thing’ again..
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Re: Democrats

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:11 pm

Gloominary wrote:But the deep state isn't left or right, if we take left to mean those who lean socialist and right to be mean those who lean conservative or libertarian.

Gloominary wrote:The deep state isn't an ideology so much as it is interests, the interests of, whatever you want to call them: the powers that be, the ruling class, the 1%.
If they had an ideology, it would simply be elitism, the centralization of wealth and power into fewer hands: theirs.
They use whatever works for them, and whatever works on us.
They use both libcons and republicrats, whoever'll do their bidding, unlike us fools, they don't care about brand.
Their loyalty is to themselves, their families, closest friends and allies, not brand, country, ethnicity, party, race or religion, they consider that sort of thing beneath them.

How is that distinguished from socialism? It seems to me that you just gave a clear definition of socialism. How is elitism any different than socialism?

Gloominary wrote:But above all else, their objective is to keep us divided and fighting over identity and ideology.
They present us with two tiny boxes.
They tell us we must select one box to live in, that all our values can be found in one of them.
Then we're told the other box is at best not that good and at worst evil.
They have us fighting over this or that platform, meanwhile little or none of it is actually on the table, what's on the table is again, elitism, lots and lots of goodies for them, and little or nothing for us.

And that seems to me to be the Marxist version of creating socialism in order to later create worker class revolution against the elites and into communism.
Gloominary wrote:Until we start thinking for ourselves and stop being so tribal.

It seems to me that can't happen. People aren't given the time, incentive, or uncensored resources (not to mention the ability) to "think for themselves". Just look at the "philosophers" on this one board. These are people trying to and believing that they think for themselves. Obviously they don't. Most don't even come close. They have been hypnotized/brainwashed (whatever you want to call it). These people will never think for themselves if they are not doing so already (very damn few).

So assuming that people are never going to think for themselves (in large they never have), and the idea of socialism is to allow the designated elites to do the informed thinking and regulating, and that those elites already have extreme power over the population (censorship, underground networking, money, advertising...), in the long run how could socialism ever be avoided?
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Re: Democrats

Postby iambiguous » Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:59 pm

Gloominary wrote:
iambiguous wrote:Sigh...

Once again: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... s#p2187045

As with Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, Joe Biden is no less embedded in this rendition of the "deep state". What on earth do you think Bernie Sanders campaign was all about!!!

It's just that some even further to the left will accuse him of "selling out" too.

In my view, the deep state has always been in control of American politics, same with Canadian and British politics, it's just gotten more out of hand in the last few decades.
But the deep state isn't left or right, if we take left to mean those who lean socialist and right to be mean those who lean conservative or libertarian.
The deep state isn't an ideology so much as it is interests, the interests of, whatever you want to call them: the powers that be, the ruling class, the 1%.
If they had an ideology, it would simply be elitism, the centralization of wealth and power into fewer hands: theirs.
They use whatever works for them, and whatever works on us.
They use both libcons and republicrats, whoever'll do their bidding, unlike us fools, they don't care about brand.
Their loyalty is to themselves, their families, closest friends and allies, not brand, country, ethnicity, party, race or religion, they consider that sort of thing beneath them.


Yeah. Given our respective sets of political prejudices, I more or less think the same thing.

The "show me the money" mentality that suffuses the moral nihilists who own and operate the global economy. Russia has their rendition, China their rendition and America their rendition. They all basically share the same foreign policies: securing cheap labor, natural resources and markets. Crony capitalists states. But: in America, "democracy and the rule of law" is not nearly the illusion that it is in Russia and China.

Or, rather, so it seems to me "here and now" based on the assumption that my own frame of mind is still no less an existential contraption rooted in dasein. Something that the objectivists -- left and right -- almost never explore in depth.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Democrats

Postby Gloominary » Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:32 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:
Gloominary wrote:But the deep state isn't left or right, if we take left to mean those who lean socialist and right to be mean those who lean conservative or libertarian.

Gloominary wrote:The deep state isn't an ideology so much as it is interests, the interests of, whatever you want to call them: the powers that be, the ruling class, the 1%.
If they had an ideology, it would simply be elitism, the centralization of wealth and power into fewer hands: theirs.
They use whatever works for them, and whatever works on us.
They use both libcons and republicrats, whoever'll do their bidding, unlike us fools, they don't care about brand.
Their loyalty is to themselves, their families, closest friends and allies, not brand, country, ethnicity, party, race or religion, they consider that sort of thing beneath them.

How is that distinguished from socialism? It seems to me that you just gave a clear definition of socialism. How is elitism any different than socialism?

Corporatism is redistribution from 99% to the 1%, socialism is redistribution from the 1% to 99%.

obsrvr524 wrote:
Gloominary wrote:But above all else, their objective is to keep us divided and fighting over identity and ideology.
They present us with two tiny boxes.
They tell us we must select one box to live in, that all our values can be found in one of them.
Then we're told the other box is at best not that good and at worst evil.
They have us fighting over this or that platform, meanwhile little or none of it is actually on the table, what's on the table is again, elitism, lots and lots of goodies for them, and little or nothing for us.

And that seems to me to be the Marxist version of creating socialism in order to later create worker class revolution against the elites and into communism.

I'm not a Marxist, I'm a social democrat.
Not all social democrats think alike, I've got my own take on it.
In democracies, we get social democracy by supporting social democratic parties and independents, not by revolution.

obsrvr524 wrote:
Gloominary wrote:Until we start thinking for ourselves and stop being so tribal.

It seems to me that can't happen. People aren't given the time, incentive, or uncensored resources (not to mention the ability) to "think for themselves". Just look at the "philosophers" on this one board. These are people trying to and believing that they think for themselves. Obviously they don't. Most don't even come close. They have been hypnotized/brainwashed (whatever you want to call it). These people will never think for themselves if they are not doing so already (very damn few).

So assuming that people are never going to think for themselves (in large they never have), and the idea of socialism is to allow the designated elites to do the informed thinking and regulating, and that those elites already have extreme power over the population (censorship, underground networking, money, advertising...), in the long run how could socialism ever be avoided?

People's ability to think for themselves waxes and wanes.
In some generations it rises, in others it falls.
It's a struggle, between 99% and the 1%.
Battles are won and lost, but I don't think the struggle ever ends.
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Re: Democrats

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:08 pm

'Socialism' in the US as of right now:

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Re: Democrats

Postby Gloominary » Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:46 pm

My idea of social democracy is going after the 1%'s income, especially those who've benefitted from corporate welfare, monetarism, reg and tax loopholes, vulture capitalism, illegal immigration and outsourcing, not the middle class's wealth.
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Re: Democrats

Postby Gloominary » Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:17 am

I'm a populist, that is fiscally: social democrat, socially: conservative, libertarian and nationalist (but more libertarian and nationalist than conservative for me).
Tucker went from libertarian to populist:

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Re: Democrats

Postby Gloominary » Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:06 am

I'm in favor of increasing taxes on the richest 1% (who make about 750 thousand $ a year or +) and redistributing them in the form of better, freer healthcare and education, affordable housing and either living wages (while subsidizing small business owners to make sure they're not hurt by it) or UBI.
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Re: Democrats

Postby Gloominary » Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:22 am

For me, socialism isn't absolute equality, that's communism.
It isn't redistributing income from the 99% to the 1%, that's corporatism.
It isn't redistributing income from one race, sex or some 99%ers to another race, sex or other 99%ers, that's racism, sexism or pseudosocialism.
It's redistributing income from the 1% to the 99% so everyone, or at least everyone who works or can't work can have a decent standard of living and a chance to get ahead.
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Re: Democrats

Postby Gloominary » Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:06 am

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