Is Trump really racist?

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Is Trump really racist?

Postby gib » Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:26 am

I keep hearing the same rhetoric from liberals: Trump must be racist because of how he speaks of Mexicans. He says (not in so many words) that if we let all the Mexicans in, they will bring their crime, drugs, and rape with them, although some are good. <-- And this is brought up as an example time and time again of how, in Trump's mind, the criminal, drug dealing, rapist Mexicans are the rule, and the "good ones" of which there are some, are the exceptions. Well, sure, I can see how the wording as such insinuates that, but if you take yourself to be qualified to deduce merely from a man's words the persistent and indubitable content of his inner character, you're walking a precariously thin line. Who the hell knows what's actually going on in Trump's mind? I certainly don't think a couple of sound bytes broadcast through the distorting powers of a biased media are enough to see into a man's soul.

Racism, as far as I'm concerned, is an attitude... not the state of a system built to disadvantage some to the advantage of others, but something about a person's character. I see racism falling into two types 1) hate driven racism, and 2) elitism. Hate driven racism is racism fueled by the desire to harm or punish other races or a specific race. Elitism is more the view that one's own race is somehow superior to another but is not necessarily driven by hate. Elites view themselves as above other people in the way one might view one's self as above animals or pets, or adults might view themselves as above children. This sense of superiority can actually underpin love for the groups seen as inferior--the way we might love our pets or our children--but by the same token, it encourages the idea that one has a right to lord dominion over others (i.e. to "own" others, or to hold custody), usually in the name of protecting or caring for them.

So the question one must ask about Trump is... does he hate Mexicans? Does he think of himself as superior to them?

Well, I think Trump probably thinks of himself as superior to everyone so however superior he sees himself in comparison to Mexicans, I don't think it's a strictly racial thing.

And does he hate Mexicans? Well, his statements about all the crime, drugs, and rape they will bring certainly doesn't sound like he has an overly flattering image of them. But this could be interpreted in so many ways. Maybe he's just alluding to the fact that the crime rate among Mexicans is staggeringly high--is noting a fact and taking action on it "racist"? Maybe he's making generalizations on purpose--for the sake of getting a point across without being hindered by all the niceties--and when it comes to individual Mexicans, he's quite capable of being more nuanced. Maybe it's the context. Maybe in the context of border security, placing emphasis on the crime, drugs, and rape that might enter the country is just a way to drive the point home, and not an accurate representation of the proportion of Mexicans he thinks actually are criminal, drug dealing, rapists. Maybe he's said just as many good things about Mexicans as bad things and the left leaning media just choose not to report on the former. After all, the things one says only really express one's thoughts in the moment, but people's minds and attitudes change, sometimes in a matter of minutes, which makes it awfully difficult to judge a man's character from just one occasion on which certain words were spoken.

Clearly, these are not nearly enough to judge conclusively that Trump is actually racist based on the things he's said. There is so much more that goes into what makes a person racist or not, most of which can't really be measured or directly seen. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if Trump turned out to have deeply racist attitudes towards a whole number of different races. Given what I've heard about the man, what he's said, what he's done (which isn't saying much since I don't trust the media at all), he does seem on the vulgar side and probably does think racist thoughts, but he also seems like a very capricious man who one day will say racists things but the next day will say flattering things about the same race. <-- And this is kinda the point. People are far too fickle in most of their attitudes to really pin them down as racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. Not that there aren't some who are stubbornly committed to a racist or sexist or homophobic (etc.) attitude, but I think this is the exception to the rule. I don't think Trump is that committed. I think he is easily capable of judging people on their individual merits. I wouldn't call that racist.

But what would I know about the man? That's kinda the point. I don't think anyone can know, certainly not based on a deliberately constructed media induced picture of the man. I think the most honest thing anyone can say is: I don't know.
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Re: Is Trump really racist?

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:33 am

I think that if you don't know, you haven't been paying attention.
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Re: Is Trump really racist?

Postby MagsJ » Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:41 am

_
For those who knew of Trump decades before all this, or even before the Apprentice and Trump Tower, they would know the answer.. and the answer is no.

Doesn’t stop him hating a c*nt or two, but that is neither here nor there.
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Re: Is Trump really racist?

Postby zinnat » Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:22 am

gib wrote:I keep hearing the same rhetoric from liberals: Trump must be racist because of how he speaks of Mexicans. He says (not in so many words) that if we let all the Mexicans in, they will bring their crime, drugs, and rape with them, although some are good. <-- And this is brought up as an example time and time again of how, in Trump's mind, the criminal, drug dealing, rapist Mexicans are the rule, and the "good ones" of which there are some, are the exceptions. Well, sure, I can see how the wording as such insinuates that, but if you take yourself to be qualified to deduce merely from a man's words the persistent and indubitable content of his inner character, you're walking a precariously thin line. Who the hell knows what's actually going on in Trump's mind? I certainly don't think a couple of sound bytes broadcast through the distorting powers of a biased media are enough to see into a man's soul.

Racism, as far as I'm concerned, is an attitude... not the state of a system built to disadvantage some to the advantage of others, but something about a person's character. I see racism falling into two types 1) hate driven racism, and 2) elitism. Hate driven racism is racism fueled by the desire to harm or punish other races or a specific race. Elitism is more the view that one's own race is somehow superior to another but is not necessarily driven by hate. Elites view themselves as above other people in the way one might view one's self as above animals or pets, or adults might view themselves as above children. This sense of superiority can actually underpin love for the groups seen as inferior--the way we might love our pets or our children--but by the same token, it encourages the idea that one has a right to lord dominion over others (i.e. to "own" others, or to hold custody), usually in the name of protecting or caring for them.

So the question one must ask about Trump is... does he hate Mexicans? Does he think of himself as superior to them?

Well, I think Trump probably thinks of himself as superior to everyone so however superior he sees himself in comparison to Mexicans, I don't think it's a strictly racial thing.

And does he hate Mexicans? Well, his statements about all the crime, drugs, and rape they will bring certainly doesn't sound like he has an overly flattering image of them. But this could be interpreted in so many ways. Maybe he's just alluding to the fact that the crime rate among Mexicans is staggeringly high--is noting a fact and taking action on it "racist"? Maybe he's making generalizations on purpose--for the sake of getting a point across without being hindered by all the niceties--and when it comes to individual Mexicans, he's quite capable of being more nuanced. Maybe it's the context. Maybe in the context of border security, placing emphasis on the crime, drugs, and rape that might enter the country is just a way to drive the point home, and not an accurate representation of the proportion of Mexicans he thinks actually are criminal, drug dealing, rapists. Maybe he's said just as many good things about Mexicans as bad things and the left leaning media just choose not to report on the former. After all, the things one says only really express one's thoughts in the moment, but people's minds and attitudes change, sometimes in a matter of minutes, which makes it awfully difficult to judge a man's character from just one occasion on which certain words were spoken.

Clearly, these are not nearly enough to judge conclusively that Trump is actually racist based on the things he's said. There is so much more that goes into what makes a person racist or not, most of which can't really be measured or directly seen. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if Trump turned out to have deeply racist attitudes towards a whole number of different races. Given what I've heard about the man, what he's said, what he's done (which isn't saying much since I don't trust the media at all), he does seem on the vulgar side and probably does think racist thoughts, but he also seems like a very capricious man who one day will say racists things but the next day will say flattering things about the same race. <-- And this is kinda the point. People are far too fickle in most of their attitudes to really pin them down as racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. Not that there aren't some who are stubbornly committed to a racist or sexist or homophobic (etc.) attitude, but I think this is the exception to the rule. I don't think Trump is that committed. I think he is easily capable of judging people on their individual merits. I wouldn't call that racist.

But what would I know about the man? That's kinda the point. I don't think anyone can know, certainly not based on a deliberately constructed media induced picture of the man. I think the most honest thing anyone can say is: I don't know.


I am kind of agreeing with your thinking. Trump is more a kind of elitist than an out and out typical racist, as that term is generally understood.

But, that point is not important here. When you are a president of country like US, it does not matter much what you think in your mind but how you put yourself forth in public life. And, that is precisely where he fails miserably. If you are a president, your public behaviour must be a model to others to follow, even at the expense of curbing your natural instinct. You have to set a right precedent for others to follow.

But, from his last win over Hillary, he concluded that people like him being what exactly he is. Thus, he is continuing with that. And, it is not the time to retreat and follow different path. That time has passed a long ago so he has no choice but to continue with the same pattern whether he wins or loses.

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Re: Is Trump really racist?

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:30 am

zinnat wrote:
I am kind of agreeing with your thinking. Trump is more a kind of elitist than an out and out typical racist, as that term is generally understood.

But, that point is not important here. When you are a president of country like US, it does not matter much what you think in your mind but how you put yourself forth in public life. And, that is precisely where he fails miserably. If you are a president, your public behaviour must be a model to others to follow, even at the expense of curbing your natural instinct. You have to set a right precedent for others to follow.

But, from his last win over Hillary, he concluded that people like him being what exactly he is. Thus, he is continuing with that. And, it is not the time to retreat and follow different path. That time has passed a long ago so he has no choice but to continue with the same pattern whether he wins or loses.

with love,
sanjay

All of that assuming that there is never a time when a man, especially a leader, must do anything that isn't proper or popular.
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Re: Is Trump really racist?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:52 am

I don't think what he says relates to his self in the same ways other politicians words relate to their selves. Other politicians create and image (and may contradict themselves) but they position themselves. Trump is vastly more random. And I think he realized, intuitively or consciously or was counseled to realize that if he could say things that others didn't dare say, this alone would make him attractive to a large though not a majority part of the population. It seems as if he is being honest. Or better put, it seems to many that he is being honest, both amongst his detractors and fans. I don't think he is being more honest than other politicians or even lying more about what he presents as himself. He just doesn't create a consistant image. He blurts. He throws out his id or the id of people he wants to bind to him. It's a completely different strategy - though how much control he has over this strategy, I have no idea.

But I don't think it makes sense to talk about politicians in terms of what they really are. You can use code to draw racists to you. Sifting through the words and trying to figure out what a politician really is is a fruitless process I think. You can talk a politicially correct game and be totally racist, either in the traditional sense or in some other sense of being a racist.

These people want to win. Or the poeple around them want them to win and guide the way they present themselves. Or both.

It has little to do with the person.
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Re: Is Trump really racist?

Postby zinnat » Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:15 am

obsrvr524 wrote:
zinnat wrote:
I am kind of agreeing with your thinking. Trump is more a kind of elitist than an out and out typical racist, as that term is generally understood.

But, that point is not important here. When you are a president of country like US, it does not matter much what you think in your mind but how you put yourself forth in public life. And, that is precisely where he fails miserably. If you are a president, your public behaviour must be a model to others to follow, even at the expense of curbing your natural instinct. You have to set a right precedent for others to follow.

But, from his last win over Hillary, he concluded that people like him being what exactly he is. Thus, he is continuing with that. And, it is not the time to retreat and follow different path. That time has passed a long ago so he has no choice but to continue with the same pattern whether he wins or loses.

with love,
sanjay

All of that assuming that there is never a time when a man, especially a leader, must do anything that isn't proper or popular.


Popular not necessarily, but proper is certainly required. If you want to lead your live completely on your terms, you should not be even in politics, let alone president of a country. Some positions require a certain decorum.

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Re: Is Trump really racist?

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:23 am

zinnat wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:All of that assuming that there is never a time when a man, especially a leader, must do anything that isn't proper or popular.

Popular not necessarily, but proper is certainly required. If you want to lead your live completely on your terms, you should not be even in politics, let alone president of a country. Some positions require a certain decorum.

with love.
sanjay

Even if the nation is lost because of it?
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Re: Is Trump really racist?

Postby zinnat » Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:48 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:
zinnat wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:All of that assuming that there is never a time when a man, especially a leader, must do anything that isn't proper or popular.

Popular not necessarily, but proper is certainly required. If you want to lead your live completely on your terms, you should not be even in politics, let alone president of a country. Some positions require a certain decorum.

with love.
sanjay

Even if the nation is lost because of it?
How very British.


I do not understand what you mean. And, neither I am British.

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Re: Is Trump really racist?

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:23 pm

zinnat wrote:I do not understand

I believe you.

When was the last time you had to get your hands dirty cleaning the toilet of your nation in order to save the soul of your nation?

Mr Trump is exactly what was needed to get the job done - character "flaws" and all. Trying to change him would be trying to destroy America.

This time, November 3rd 2020, as America goes, the world goes - including India.

How is that CCP working out for you?
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Re: Is Trump really racist?

Postby gib » Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:08 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:I think that if you don't know, you haven't been paying attention.


To what biased, manipulative, truth-distorting, out-right-lying media outlet?

zinnat wrote:But, that point is not important here. When you are a president of country like US, it does not matter much what you think in your mind but how you put yourself forth in public life. And, that is precisely where he fails miserably. If you are a president, your public behaviour must be a model to others to follow, even at the expense of curbing your natural instinct. You have to set a right precedent for others to follow.


I disagree. I think the most important thing you can do as POTUS is take care of your country, to maximize the flourishing of your country and the wellbeing of your people and to minimize the disintegration of your country and the hardship of your people. In the US, that's done mainly by protecting the people from foreign threats and intervening on internal conflict (insofar as that conflict violates the law and infringes on the rights of others). As long as you can do that job well, who gives a damn how you present yourself in public. I will admit that your public image as president can affect your ability to do your job well. As the leader of your nation, you cannot make the people do anything. They have to choose to follow you. And they will only choose to follow you if they respect you and invest faith in your authority. For that, you do have to win the trust and admiration of the people which requires putting on a good public image. But that's a means to an end. The end is taking care of your country, doing your job well. (And given the state of most Republican voters today, the way Trump presents himself in public apparently isn't a terrible model to follow--most of them like it.)

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Trump is vastly more random.

...

But I don't think it makes sense to talk about politicians in terms of what they really are. You can use code to draw racists to you. Sifting through the words and trying to figure out what a politician really is is a fruitless process I think. You can talk a politicially correct game and be totally racist, either in the traditional sense or in some other sense of being a racist.


Exactly my point.
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Re: Is Trump really racist?

Postby iambiguous » Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:15 pm

Another point of view:

https://youtu.be/DAB-q_JGLYM
https://youtu.be/wZ0VJLhFHMA

On the other hand, what does she know, right?
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Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Is Trump really racist?

Postby Meno_ » Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:36 pm

gib wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:I think that if you don't know, you haven't been paying attention.


To what biased, manipulative, truth-distorting, out-right-lying media outlet?

zinnat wrote:But, that point is not important here. When you are a president of country like US, it does not matter much what you think in your mind but how you put yourself forth in public life. And, that is precisely where he fails miserably. If you are a president, your public behaviour must be a model to others to follow, even at the expense of curbing your natural instinct. You have to set a right precedent for others to follow.


I disagree. I think the most important thing you can do as POTUS is take care of your country, to maximize the flourishing of your country and the wellbeing of your people and to minimize the disintegration of your country and the hardship of your people. In the US, that's done mainly by protecting the people from foreign threats and intervening on internal conflict (insofar as that conflict violates the law and infringes on the rights of others). As long as you can do that job well, who gives a damn how you present yourself in public. I will admit that your public image as president can affect your ability to do your job well. As the leader of your nation, you cannot make the people do anything. They have to choose to follow you. And they will only choose to follow you if they respect you and invest faith in your authority. For that, you do have to win the trust and admiration of the people which requires putting on a good public image. But that's a means to an end. The end is taking care of your country, doing your job well. (And given the state of most Republican voters today, the way Trump presents himself in public apparently isn't a terrible model to follow--most of them like it.)

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Trump is vastly more random.

...

But I don't think it makes sense to talk about politicians in terms of what they really are. You can use code to draw racists to you. Sifting through the words and trying to figure out what a politician really is is a fruitless process I think. You can talk a politicially correct game and be totally racist, either in the traditional sense or in some other sense of being a racist.


Exactly my point.





Or, in any other sense of your choosing. A politician is not a character , who actually stands for whatever he believes in, most of them are really poseurs, who will stand for anything that will get them elected. They are opportunists, fitting in to a popular social attitude.

Trump's catering to the reversal of the idea of equal opportunity notions of bettering disadvantaged minorities ,and presenting them as an overplayed playbook, reducing and detracking from majority interests, has served Trump well.

Political expediency pertains to public posturing, that benefit
by uncovering hidden social anger over states of affairs that involve distributions of value toward differing classes of people.

A man like Trump can not conceive such challenging interplay, since he has never had anything but a bird-eye view of how that works. It is all polemics driven by power plays , which are for the most part, tactical manipulations through the media.

His attack on the media, exemplify and refocus his basic attitude, not in terms of gross discounting of the negative effects, but the reflex rerouting of singular gain of derived net effects.

It is based very simply on all that has been experienced from subtle transition from universal to singular effects.
Nothing new here, and it is the classic method beneath the cause of the rise of dictatorship.

Targeting nonspecific groups outside a bemoaning majority,
sows confusion among those, with fears , that such nondescript generalization could eventually zero in on them with more virulent specificity.

Without such designated group being singled out, denials are usually followed by reprisals of a generic nature.

The presentation of the above videos, in terms of how Mary Trump sees it, 'on it's face, the dynamics of 'casual prejudice' turning virulent, misses the point of how and why a primary position inbred by familial social. development, opportunistically attains formidable secondary significance.

It is only society through which such primate facie justifications make sense.
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Re: Is Trump really racist?

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:52 pm

gib wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:I think that if you don't know, you haven't been paying attention.


To what biased, manipulative, truth-distorting, out-right-lying media outlet?

There are actually only two choices. Pay attention to both of them - the Socialists and the Constitutionalists.

One of the media outlets speaks totally negative of Mr Trump (the much larger one). The other speaks mostly positive of Mr Trump (the smaller one). One of them very obviously manipulates and reports hearsay as "news" from anonymous sources. The other mostly displays actual evidence and reports opinions as "opinions".

Between the two it isn't hard to discern the greater truth in Mr Trump's case. Although this late in the game you would probably have to spend a lot of time catching up. It is like trying to learn the entire study course the night before final exams.

gib wrote:
zinnat wrote:But, that point is not important here. When you are a president of country like US, it does not matter much what you think in your mind but how you put yourself forth in public life. And, that is precisely where he fails miserably. If you are a president, your public behaviour must be a model to others to follow, even at the expense of curbing your natural instinct. You have to set a right precedent for others to follow.


I disagree. I think the most important thing you can do as POTUS is take care of your country, to maximize the flourishing of your country and the wellbeing of your people and to minimize the disintegration of your country and the hardship of your people. In the US, that's done mainly by protecting the people from foreign threats and intervening on internal conflict (insofar as that conflict violates the law and infringes on the rights of others). As long as you can do that job well, who gives a damn how you present yourself in public. I will admit that your public image as president can affect your ability to do your job well. As the leader of your nation, you cannot make the people do anything. They have to choose to follow you. And they will only choose to follow you if they respect you and invest faith in your authority. For that, you do have to win the trust and admiration of the people which requires putting on a good public image. But that's a means to an end. The end is taking care of your country, doing your job well. (And given the state of most Republican voters today, the way Trump presents himself in public apparently isn't a terrible model to follow--most of them like it.)

I think that was very well put and true.
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Re: Is Trump really racist?

Postby zinnat » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:23 am

obsrvr524 wrote:
zinnat wrote:I do not understand

I believe you.

When was the last time you had to get your hands dirty cleaning the toilet of your nation in order to save the soul of your nation?

Mr Trump is exactly what was needed to get the job done - character "flaws" and all. Trying to change him would be trying to destroy America.

This time, November 3rd 2020, as America goes, the world goes - including India.

How is that CCP working out for you?


It does not look to me that he is any way interested in saving the soul of US. However that depends on what one thinks of US soul.

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Re: Is Trump really racist?

Postby zinnat » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:58 am

gib wrote:
zinnat wrote:But, that point is not important here. When you are a president of country like US, it does not matter much what you think in your mind but how you put yourself forth in public life. And, that is precisely where he fails miserably. If you are a president, your public behaviour must be a model to others to follow, even at the expense of curbing your natural instinct. You have to set a right precedent for others to follow.


I disagree. I think the most important thing you can do as POTUS is take care of your country, to maximize the flourishing of your country and the wellbeing of your people and to minimize the disintegration of your country and the hardship of your people. In the US, that's done mainly by protecting the people from foreign threats and intervening on internal conflict (insofar as that conflict violates the law and infringes on the rights of others). As long as you can do that job well, who gives a damn how you present yourself in public. I will admit that your public image as president can affect your ability to do your job well. As the leader of your nation, you cannot make the people do anything. They have to choose to follow you. And they will only choose to follow you if they respect you and invest faith in your authority. For that, you do have to win the trust and admiration of the people which requires putting on a good public image. But that's a means to an end. The end is taking care of your country, doing your job well. (And given the state of most Republican voters today, the way Trump presents himself in public apparently isn't a terrible model to follow--most of them like it.)

.[/quote]

You did not understand what i am saying.

We, as a society, have decorum in almost all fields of live. You would not see doctors smoking or drinking in hospitals. It does not mean that do not do that at all but they do all that in private, not in the front of their patients. Teachers are supposed to dress and behave with some decency in classrooms. It is not illegal for a female teacher to come in the class wearing bikini but they do not do that. Why? Simply because some unmatured minds are looking to them to set an example.

I know that you are a married person with kids. Suppose, for any reasons, while returning home, you know that you are going to have a fight with your wife. Then, in that case, would you start shouting right from entering the door or wait for some time so your children can go to sleep. If so, why? What is wrong in fighting front of your children and show them what you and your wife think of each other?

You said that as a president, Trump should be only caring about the welfare of US. That is true. Again, going to the analogy of a family, think of a father who fulfils all his duties towards his children, like taking care of their all needs and getting them good education etc but at every night he gets drunk and abuses his wife in front of his children. Does he has the right to do so? Obviously not.

The same applies to the politicians, especially to the head of a state. Knowingly or unknowingly, people tend to follow their leaders. So, a president of US cannot behave like Phyco-daddy, at least publicly. Do not confuse decency with hard or unpopular decisions. He is a legally elected US president thus have every right to enforce his ideology even if that is unpopular but in acceptable manner.

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Re: Is Trump really racist?

Postby gib » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:52 am

obsrvr524 wrote:There are actually only two choices. Pay attention to both of them - the Socialists and the Constitutionalists.

Sadly, yes.

One of the media outlets speaks totally negative of Mr Trump (the much larger one). The other speaks mostly positive of Mr Trump (the smaller one). One of them very obviously manipulates and reports hearsay as "news" from anonymous sources. The other mostly displays actual evidence and reports opinions as "opinions".

You realize your claims are just as subject to skepticism and scrutany as any other source, right? As far as I'm concerned, you're just another biased source whose conclusions may be just as fabricated and out of touch with reality as any other source.

Between the two it isn't hard to discern the greater truth in Mr Trump's case. Although this late in the game you would probably have to spend a lot of time catching up. It is like trying to learn the entire study course the night before final exams.


I don't know what you mean by "late in the game". You mean because election day is fast approaching? Don't worry, I'm Canadian.

In any case, I never know how to tell the difference between getting to know the truth of a subject matter by virtue of prolonged exposure and slowly being brainwashed by it by virtue of prolonged exposure. Are you sure you know the difference in your case?

obsrvr524 wrote:I think that was very well put and true.


I know, right?
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Re: Is Trump really racist?

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:01 am

gib wrote:Are you sure you know the difference in your case?

What more can you do than observe all of the information options and analyze from there. In this case, the distinction is pretty easy - hearsay versus hard evidence.

I like your sig too -
In fact, the idea that there's more differences between groups than there is between individuals is actually the fundamental racist idea.
- Jordan Peterson

Here's a good rule of thumb for politics--attribute everything to stupidity unless you can prove malice.
- Ben Shapiro
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Re: Is Trump really racist?

Postby gib » Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:18 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:What more can you do than observe all of the information options and analyze from there.


Admit that you don't know.

obsrvr524 wrote:In this case, the distinction is pretty easy - hearsay versus hard evidence.


The problem is that your evidence that there is hard evidence is hearsay.

I take a hard line on epistemology. I call myself an anti-epistemologist, which means I think knowledge is far over rated. I think we know only a fraction of what we think we know. The only things I feel confident in claiming to know are the things I experience first-hand in my own life. I know where I live. I know what my allergies are. I know I sometimes get migraines and I know the medication that works for it. I know I have two wonderful children. I know I've been sober and drug free for nearly 2 and a half years now. Do I know that Trump is building a wall? No, I haven't seen it. Do I know that he brokered peace in the Middle East? No, that's just what I'm told by the media? Do I know that Biden suffers from some form of dementia? Not Really. Maybe right-leaning sources are only making him out to seem like it. Is global warming real? How the hell should I know. Is the Corona virus real? Or is it a conspiracy invented to keep people from gathering together or to shut down the economy? Nothing in my own life serves as evidence for or against any of these. My rule of thumb is: if I experience it through a screen, it's hearsay.

obsrvr524 wrote:I like your sig too


Thank you. You can probably tell from that, I am right leaning, but that's based more on a preference of values and ideas, not evidence or knowledge. Though I will say this: even though there's very little that qualifies as knowledge for me, it's not all on equal footing. I'd far more trust someone like Ben Shapiro than a Fox News anchor like Tucker Carlson. It just seems extremely unlikely that a man as intelligent and scrupulous as Ben would base his claims on anecdotal evidence or mere opinion, or that he's really a puppet being told what to say by right-wing fascists and religious zealots. <-- While I won't discount the latter as a possibility, I give some weight to my visceral impression that some sources just seem more trustworthy than others
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In fact, the idea that there's more differences between groups than there is between individuals is actually the fundamental racist idea.
- Jordan Peterson

Here's a good rule of thumb for politics--attribute everything to stupidity unless you can prove malice.
- Ben Shapiro

right outta high school i tried to get a job as a proctologist but i couldn't find an opening.
- promethean75

Ahh... gib, zombie universes are so last year! I’m doing hyper dimensional mirror realities now.
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Re: Is Trump really racist?

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:04 pm

gib wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:What more can you do than observe all of the information options and analyze from there.


Admit that you don't know.

No. I said in order to know you have to observe the evidence available and analyze what you see. And that in this case, it is easy to analyze so it is easy to know.

gib wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:In this case, the distinction is pretty easy - hearsay versus hard evidence.


The problem is that your evidence that there is hard evidence is hearsay.

That would be a problem if I had said that I was evidence but I didn't say that. I answered your question as to how to decide with, "go look at all of the evidence provided and think about it".

gib wrote:I take a hard line on epistemology. I call myself an anti-epistemologist, which means I think knowledge is far over rated. I think we know only a fraction of what we think we know. The only things I feel confident in claiming to know are the things I experience first-hand in my own life.

Does that mean that if you see a speech given by Mr Trump and then later see a reporter from CNN claiming something different than what you saw, you can't tell that the CNN reporter was lying?

gib wrote: My rule of thumb is: if I experience it through a screen, it's hearsay.

So why are you reading this?

gib wrote:I'd far more trust someone like Ben Shapiro than a Fox News anchor like Tucker Carlson. It just seems extremely unlikely that a man as intelligent and scrupulous as Ben would base his claims on anecdotal evidence or mere opinion

Mr Shapiro observes and does some very intense thinking almost instantly. I think Mr Tucker is honest but he expects his audience to know when he is being hyperbolic (so he probably loses some people who think he lied) and he isn't quite the deep thinker that Mr Shapiro is.
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Re: Is Trump really racist?

Postby gib » Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:15 am

obsrvr524 wrote:No. I said in order to know you have to observe the evidence available and analyze what you see. And that in this case, it is easy to analyze so it is easy to know.

...

That would be a problem if I had said that I was evidence but I didn't say that. I answered your question as to how to decide with, "go look at all of the evidence provided and think about it".


What kind of evidence are you talking about? Do you follow Trump around in his personal life? Do you spy on people and note their behaviors, the things they say, who they mingle with? Are you there to observe first-hand every event and story reported in the news? If you get your evidence like everyone else, you're getting it from someone who wants you to believe it. Hearsay.

obsrvr524 wrote:
gib wrote:I take a hard line on epistemology. I call myself an anti-epistemologist, which means I think knowledge is far over rated. I think we know only a fraction of what we think we know. The only things I feel confident in claiming to know are the things I experience first-hand in my own life.

Does that mean that if you see a speech given by Mr Trump and then later see a reporter from CNN claiming something different than what you saw, you can't tell that the CNN reporter was lying?


What kind of question is that? Of course I'd get the impression the reporter was lying. A very strong impression. But that's different from believing he was lying because another reporter told me so. What you're talking about is a discrepancy I'd be witnessing first-hand. That's personal experience. I'd find it hard to believe Trump's speech was fabricated or edited but I've seen it done... to myself. I was interviewed by a local news reporter about my impressions of a job fair I was attending. Being honest, I told them some good things and some bad things. Later, when I watched the report, they had me say things I swear I didn't say (all positive of course).

I'm not saying I can't be persuaded one way or the other, I'm just very careful with what I call knowledge and what I call opinion or impression.

obsrvr524 wrote:
gib wrote: My rule of thumb is: if I experience it through a screen, it's hearsay.

So why are you reading this?


I think I very clearly said this is hearsay.

obsrvr524 wrote:
gib wrote:I'd far more trust someone like Ben Shapiro than a Fox News anchor like Tucker Carlson. It just seems extremely unlikely that a man as intelligent and scrupulous as Ben would base his claims on anecdotal evidence or mere opinion

Mr Shapiro observes and does some very intense thinking almost instantly. I think Mr Tucker is honest but he expects his audience to know when he is being hyperbolic (so he probably loses some people who think he lied) and he isn't quite the deep thinker that Mr Shapiro is.


Maybe. Not trying to dump on Mr. Tucker. He seems like a good guy. I was just using him as a representative of Fox News which I don't trust... not by long shot. And Ben's just too conscientious to be that sloppy in getting his facts straight.
My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

In fact, the idea that there's more differences between groups than there is between individuals is actually the fundamental racist idea.
- Jordan Peterson

Here's a good rule of thumb for politics--attribute everything to stupidity unless you can prove malice.
- Ben Shapiro

right outta high school i tried to get a job as a proctologist but i couldn't find an opening.
- promethean75

Ahh... gib, zombie universes are so last year! I’m doing hyper dimensional mirror realities now.
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Re: Is Trump really racist?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:31 am

gib wrote:I take a hard line on epistemology. I call myself an anti-epistemologist, which means I think knowledge is far over rated.s
I'll get the petty part over first: 1) I'd call you a strict epistemologist - which leads to skepticism about labeling something 'knowledge' and 2) I would say you think claims to knowledge are overrated. But that's just me being fussy. I wish more people were this honest. My impression is we would disagree about some things politically, but at least all the 'I just deduced [read proved] that you are wrong' and 'My arguments are based on facts filtered through undeniable logic' type statements are set to the side and you are willing, if I read this correctly, to admit that your own direct experience and your own intuition play strong roles in what you decide to do and the opinions you have. Nowadays everybody is utterly logical [read: 'logical'}, has made the perfect argument, their opponents are evil or dumb or both [and despite what the right often says, the left are couched as evil/moronic all the time as the TWO political correctnesses clash]. Everybody KNOWS. Everybody thinks their arguments are perfect diamonds of undeniable proof, not realizing that proofs are in the realm of math and symbolic logic and not life. To be sympthetic everyone feels like their back is utterly against the wall and the end of the world is nigh. But I don't think their epistemological posturing is going to prevent this.
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Re: Is Trump really racist?

Postby obsrvr524 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:16 am

gib wrote:What kind of evidence are you talking about?

The evidence that is the network news reports that you directly witness. As I said, you have basically 2 media outlets. They are the evidence that you have as your information input. From their reporting, regardless of whether any of it is accurate, you must analyze and think about what you are directly witnessing.

You don't directly witness anything about politics and the world. What you directly witness is what others are talking about and showing pictures of. Then from what they are talking about and displaying, you can often gain confidence about what is probably true. That is all you have. The other option is to just ignore it all and offer no opinion.

gib wrote:If you get your evidence like everyone else, you're getting it from someone who wants you to believe it. Hearsay.

Your entire schooling is the same. Did you learn nothing real?

AFTER you observe what others are saying and showing you, you must THINK about what you are witnessing (their display) and decide what might actually be true which is possibly different than anything you have heard or been shown.

If you don't think about what you have seen and heard from others, you can't discern anything about world events. Did world war 2 ever happen? You didn't see it. You were not there. So why would you believe such a fanciful tale of millions of people shooting at each other?surely no one would really act like that.

gib wrote:Of course I'd get the impression the reporter was lying. A very strong impression. But that's different from believing he was lying because another reporter told me so.

So you are doing what I have said. You see one event and believe that it is real even though there is a media between you and the event. The event is probably true because of how it is being reported. So when you see a reporter merely saying something happened differently than what you already believe to be probably true, you instantly believe the reporter is probably lying.

gib wrote:What you're talking about is a discrepancy I'd be witnessing first-hand. That's personal experience.

You didn't directly witness any of it. What you directly witnessed is only what others showed you and told you. Yet you still decided to believe something because you saw 2 events - a video and a reporter. Then you balanced the "evidence" of what has passed before your eyes.

gib wrote: My rule of thumb is: if I experience it through a screen, it's hearsay.

Yet you believe what you deem as not likely to be fake or wrong - at least a little bit of thought.

I don't know why you are asking the question. You are obviously already doing what I have said except perhaps not listening to BOTH sides of the only two options you have.

What I witness is one camp saying things like from a CNN reporter, "The New York Times reports that an anonymous source said that Mr Trump privately said..." - a reporter saying that someone said that someone said that someone said. From the other camp like from Mr Tucker, "They want to believe that Mr Trump is a racist. Watch this video of Mr Trump speaking and then what they are saying that he said...."

Those are very different kinds of reporting and whichever one is telling you merely that someone said that someone said (reporting hearsay as news) and often even another layer from "an anonymous source" (reporting hearsay about hearsay - "echo chamber" as credible news) is the one to be very skeptical of.
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Re: Is Trump really racist?

Postby MagsJ » Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:59 am

_
I would hazard a guess that his sister is making quite a bit of money, from these interviews, and books that she’s been writing..

Like no-one’s ever done that before.. prospering off a sibling’s or friend’s back.

Now! I’m not saying that Trump is squeaky clean, when it comes to his use of language and expletives when describing others, but that could be down to the fact that he didn’t attend a Swiss finishing-school or etiquette classes.. perhaps he should, and he may well have a touch of Tourette’s.. perhaps he does.
Last edited by MagsJ on Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Trump really racist?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:40 pm

He's a street guy. He didn't make his money by inheriting it all or by climbing the greasy ladders that lead from academia to industry.

He made his money on the streets. More than a little likely he had to deal with the Mafia when he was small time in New York. Nobody ever gave him a thesaurus.

That's also why people like him. When the academia class hears "rude, insulting RASSISS!" the people hear "one of us." "Genuine." His every word hasn't been studied to death and cross analysed with the most recent social studies of Florida University. Instead, they sound like the words of a guy that gets shit done. You know that, not because some MIT psychologist carefully crafted the words, rythms, cadences, etc, to make you hear that, but because you have heard them kind of words before. It's a language, of real people, that you know, and that Trump is an unrivaled master of, something that only victory gives. Winning.
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