2nd Amendment

For discussions of culture, politics, economics, sociology, law, business and any other topic that falls under the social science remit.

Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby phoneutria » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:30 pm

so keep means receive in idiot land?
phoneutria
purveyor of enchantment, advocate of pulchritude AND venomously disarming
 
Posts: 3697
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:37 am

Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:32 pm

phoneutria wrote:so keep means receive in idiot land?


No. Keep means what you said, “nobody can take it from you”. Bear means that you have it.

Again, idiot!

Read my post again.
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11048
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby phoneutria » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:37 pm

so what part of that means someone has to give you a gun?
phoneutria
purveyor of enchantment, advocate of pulchritude AND venomously disarming
 
Posts: 3697
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:37 am

Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:43 pm

phoneutria wrote:so what part of that means someone has to give you a gun?


Because it’s a fucking right!!!

It’s a right to bear arms, not a privilege, a right.

Everywhere else in the constitution and declaration, right is defined as EVERYONE!

That means that (by the letter of the law) I can walk up to the pentagon and ask them for my nuke. If they don’t give it to me, I’m constitutionally entitled to hang them all as traitors.

You see where this is going phon?

The constitution is toilet paper.
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11048
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby phoneutria » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:44 pm

seems pretty obvious to everyone but you that the right is that a gun can't be taken from you
phoneutria
purveyor of enchantment, advocate of pulchritude AND venomously disarming
 
Posts: 3697
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:37 am

Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby iambiguous » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:50 pm

phoneutria wrote:the text of the law says that the right to bear arms can't be infringed
that means that if you got a gun in your hand, nobody can take it from you
doesn't mean everyone gets a gun
idiot


The text says this:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Some of course read it this way:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Others read it more this way:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

I maintain that this is embedded subjectively in political prejudices rooted in dasein. The objectivists insist that, on the contrary, there is only one objective interpretation and it is theirs.

Let's call this the "psychology of objectivism".
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
iambiguous: a post from Pedro?
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 38525
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:51 pm

phoneutria wrote:seems pretty obvious to everyone but you that the right is that a gun can't be taken from you


No, that’s the “keep” part, not the “bear” part. The “bear” part is the RIGHT to have it.

Any idiot who’s a constitutional scholar knows I’m right on the law and the usage.
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11048
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby phoneutria » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:55 pm

lol
ok ecmandu
pat pat pat

please notify me of how your legal battle goes
all the way up to the supreme court
requesting your right to be given a gun
phoneutria
purveyor of enchantment, advocate of pulchritude AND venomously disarming
 
Posts: 3697
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:37 am

Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:00 pm

phoneutria wrote:lol
ok ecmandu
pat pat pat

please notify me of how your legal battle goes
all the way up to the supreme court
requesting your right to be given a gun


If the Supreme Court refused me my free nuke, according to the constitution, I could have them all hung as traitors as well.

But let’s nitpick, like you tried to do. Nowhere in the second amendment does it state that you have the right to USE arms!!!!

You’d have to look at other passages like “provide for the common defense ... all enemies foreign and domestic”
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11048
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby obsrvr524 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:08 pm

We have been through this before too. Ecmandu, you seem to have a short memory.

The right "to bear" means legally have permission to have in possession.
Each legal right that an individual possesses relates to a corresponding legal duty imposed on another. For example, when a person owns a home and property, he has the right to possess and enjoy it free from the interference of others, who are under a corresponding duty not to interfere with the owner's rights by trespassing on the property or breaking into the home.

As explained before a right to own is NOT a guarantee to own. It means that others are not free to take it away.

Right to life does NOT mean the government must keep you alive. It means that others are NOT allowed to take it away.

The right to pursue happiness is NOT mean the government pursues it for you. It means that others are NOT allowed to prevent your pursuit.

A right merely means an unimpeded permit restricting others from interference.

Unimpeded permit to own and bear arms restricting others from interference.
Unimpeded permit to live restricting others from interference.
Unimpeded permit to pursue happiness restricting others from interference.

Currently in the US Constitution, SCOTUS decides to what degree proposed laws meet the constitutional requirements and rights therein. To do that they have to try to see what was originally intended (and not be stupid about it).

If you want the word to mean something else, I suggest you leave it out of YOUR CONSTITUTION - still waiting for that.
              You have been observed.
obsrvr524
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1001
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:03 am

Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby phoneutria » Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:11 pm

it's the "shall not be infringed" part that is the active part of that paragraph
means whatever the situation is, it will be left the fuck alone
phoneutria
purveyor of enchantment, advocate of pulchritude AND venomously disarming
 
Posts: 3697
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:37 am

Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:37 pm

Let’s just work with this....

“As explained before a right to own is NOT a guarantee to own. It means that others are not free to take it away.”

Then they’d say, “if you own an arm, others are not free to take it away” (not like that happened in Waco Texas or all around the country - but that’s a digression)

If that’s what they meant, that’s what they would have stated. Unless ... *gasp* ... the framers weren’t perfect !!!

What? The framers weren’t perfect!!?? That’s blasphemy!!!! Traitor!!!
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11048
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby obsrvr524 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:48 pm

Ecmandu wrote:If that’s what they meant, that’s what they would have stated.

That IS what they said. You just never learned English. And probably had something to do with dropping out of primary school.
              You have been observed.
obsrvr524
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1001
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:03 am

Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:51 pm

iambiguous wrote:
phoneutria wrote:the text of the law says that the right to bear arms can't be infringed
that means that if you got a gun in your hand, nobody can take it from you
doesn't mean everyone gets a gun
idiot


The text says this:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Some of course read it this way:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Others read it more this way:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

I maintain that this is embedded subjectively in political prejudices rooted in dasein. The objectivists insist that, on the contrary, there is only one objective interpretation and it is theirs.

Let's call this the "psychology of objectivism".


Well yes, because you are a communist with an agenda, and reason is meaningless to you.

Even if you emphasize the militia part, still you have not shown what connection this makes with the right to keep and bear not being impeded. When asked, you fizzled off as usual.

Unfamiliar with rigour, you are.


Good to see ec is back to what it means is that they can't stop you keeping and bearing, not that somebody is supposed to give you a gun. But actually, the law gives you the right even assuming you are imperfect, and is kind enough to explain why.
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6714
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:56 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State


No imperatives here, nothing prescribed or forbidden, just descriptive.

Pedro I Rengel wrote:the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Here we have a clear command. "Shall not."

Only the dishonesty of a preexisting agenda could confuse this.
Last edited by Pedro I Rengel on Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6714
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:56 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:If that’s what they meant, that’s what they would have stated.

That IS what they said. You just never learned English. And probably had something to do with dropping out of primary school.


That’s not what they said dude. They said you have the RIGHT to do x, y, z.

Right is a very particular and forceful term to use in constitutional law.

“All men are created equal before the law”

But blacks weren’t considered human and women weren’t men (lack of rights)

So if I made this argument before the Supreme Court I’d argue the directionality of how the term “right” has moved as the interpretation of the language of amendments grew since it was written.

“Right” means “all”
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11048
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:59 pm

If people wonder why I dedicate time to iamcommuni, but am mostly unbothered by ec, it's that ec is just a psicotic. Pretty harmless. He once said that a homeless person is the most harmless creature in the world, and he is right.

But iamabanana is a dedicated communist with an agenda. Much like one encounters in all stations of life striving to control our lives.

That is a dishonesty worth exposing, worth making patent.

We have to make prom embarassed to be on the same team.

These are your peeps, Mr R.

That's why.
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6714
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:02 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:If people wonder why I dedicate time to iamcommuni, but am mostly unbothered by ec, it's that ec is just a psicotic. Pretty harmless. He once said that a homeless person is the most harmless creature in the world, and he is right.

But iamabanana is a dedicated communist with an agenda. Much like one encounters in all stations of life striving to control our lives.

That is a dishonesty worth exposing, worth making patent.

We have to make prom embarassed to be on the same team.

These are your peeps, Mr R.

That's why.


Actually, I never said such a thing, and if you’re going to call me a name, at least spell it correctly!

The word is psychotic.
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11048
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:02 am

People must be forced to pick sides, because war is here.

Only communists are interested in convincing people that the whole right-left divide is, like, so contrived.

It is not. Communists are real and they are opposed to freedom. This can be shown. I am showing it.

You are either aiding those who wish to establish control of every facet of our lives, or you are down to stop them.
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6714
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:06 am

Obama was supposed to be for the people.

Instead he established a surveillance state like never before seen. He was supposed to "drain the swamp," to kick out the career government people dedicated to infringing on our lives. he gave them more power than they had ever had. Almost all the power. He was supposed to stop crazy wars. He basically took a wrecking ball to the entire Middle East and created ISIS.

If Obama could fail, time to reconsider very seriously. Time to look at his enemies and wonder if they really are what you thought, what you were told. Told by who, first of all?

Is it really a fact that private medicine will be more expensive?

Time to ask questions. Because history is watching you.

I don't really give a shit. I am doing me and having a ball.

But as long as I'm here.
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6714
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:08 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:People must be forced to pick sides, because war is here.

Only communists are interested in convincing people that the whole right-left divide is, like, so contrived.

It is not. Communists are real and they are opposed to freedom. This can be shown. I am showing it.

You are either aiding those who wish to establish control of every facet of our lives, or you are down to stop them.


Pedro, I’m going to tell you this in the most straight forward way I can.

The world fucked and that’s why you’re fucked in the head.

Rising above is no longer about saving the world... that shits gone. It’s about throwing up a middle finger to existence as a whole before you die here.
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11048
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:09 am

Ecmandu wrote:
Pedro I Rengel wrote:People must be forced to pick sides, because war is here.

Only communists are interested in convincing people that the whole right-left divide is, like, so contrived.

It is not. Communists are real and they are opposed to freedom. This can be shown. I am showing it.

You are either aiding those who wish to establish control of every facet of our lives, or you are down to stop them.


Pedro, I’m going to tell you this in the most straight forward way I can.

The world fucked and that’s why you’re fucked in the head.

Rising above is no longer about saving the world... that shits gone. It’s about throwing up a middle finger to existence as a whole before you die here.


User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6714
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby obsrvr524 » Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:18 am

Ecmandu wrote:“All men are created equal before the law”

But blacks weren’t considered human and women weren’t men (lack of rights)

So if I made this argument before the Supreme Court I’d argue the directionality of how the term “right” has moved as the interpretation of the language of amendments grew since it was written.

As I said - SCOTUS has to try to interpret the intended meaning, NOT what language has changed into.

The original meaning was that "men" were created equal. It did not say "women" It did not say "slaves". So until the 14th amendment was passed (1800's) the Constitution really did mean only men. But that 14th amendment is about equal protection under the law for ALL CITIZENS. That is what allows for former slaves, blacks, women, children and whatever can be called "citizen" to have equal rights. Read your bleedn constitution.

As I have said, you don't even know the constitution that you have. You are certainly not in a position to be dissing it in the hopes of writing a new one.

Ecmandu wrote:“Right” means “all”

Words do NOT mean just whatever you want them to mean or what you thought they meant as you crawled around on the floor. They mean what OTHER people (the majority) say they mean.

You might take note that others don't seem to have your problem with the word. And they do NOT think that "right" means "all".
Last edited by obsrvr524 on Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
              You have been observed.
obsrvr524
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1001
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:03 am

Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:19 am

The South Park psycho? Really? Is he the one who always kills Kenny ?

Man, that’s some serious troll shit.

Here’s the deal. We never die. And everything always comes out.

People in these boards are wrong about how existence works ... always my problem / not my problem if you continue to be a moron
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11048
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby obsrvr524 » Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:26 am

Ecmandu wrote:Here’s the deal. We never die. And everything always comes out.

Where is your evidence? Why should we believe you? Without those, why are you even saying it because it makes you seem pretty "moronic" yourself.

Ecmandu wrote:People in these boards are wrong about how existence works ... always my problem / not my problem if you continue to be a moron

YOU are one of these "people on these boards".

And keep in mind this is off-topic so don't make a long argument about it.
              You have been observed.
obsrvr524
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1001
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:03 am

PreviousNext

Return to Society, Government, and Economics



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users