Lügenpresse

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Re: Lügenpresse

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat May 01, 2021 7:35 am

maybe im in the fucking twilight zone or something but it seems like gloominary is trying to convince me that black on black crime or something is his real concern here. i swear to god it sounds like the dude is saying that criminals killing one another is worse than police officers doing it. maybe he is one of those people who does well under an authoritarian boot, and therefore gets a hard on for the cops. i don't know. those people exist. i dont think that we should, as a society, accept any extrajudicial killings of our citizens in the street by agents of the state.
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Re: Lügenpresse

Postby Gloominary » Sat May 01, 2021 2:17 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:Gloominary:
They are disproportionately arrested, incarcerated and killed because they disproportionately commit crime, end of story.
Police are doing a fantastic job on this, my hat goes off to them.
The radical left, which controls most of the MSM on this particular item, must be reigned in.

K: and we get to the point of the op.... you are racist and you hate liberals.. got it...
no need to go on... we get it...

Kropotkin

You're a self-hating white.
When your home or car gets broken into or you get mugged by a nonwhite, you think; 'I'm a white man, I must've done something to deserve this, go easy on the lad'.
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Re: Lügenpresse

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat May 01, 2021 3:11 pm

Gloominary:
They are disproportionately arrested, incarcerated and killed because they disproportionately commit crime, end of story. Police are doing a fantastic job on this, my hat goes off to them.
The radical left, which controls most of the MSM on this particular item, must be reigned in.

K: and we get to the point of the op.... you are racist and you hate liberals.. got it...
no need to go on... we get it...

G: You're a self-hating white.
When your home or car gets broken into or you get mugged by a nonwhite, you think; 'I'm a white man, I must've done something to deserve this, go easy on the lad'.[/quote]

K: and if I want unarmed people of color not to be shot by the police and
I want people, all people, to be treated equally... why that must mean I am a
"self hating white" because nothing says self hate as wanting people to be treated with
justice and dignity....and of course I am self hating if I want an end to the systematic
racism in the police...in other words, if I don't hate blacks, I must be "self hating"....

as hate is your stock in trade, I shall leave it with you...I don't deal with hate
and I don't deal with guilt....

Kropotkin
PK IS EVIL.....
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Re: Lügenpresse

Postby Gloominary » Sat May 01, 2021 3:26 pm

fuse wrote:
Gloominary wrote:do blacks get a free pass for 150 year old slavery, and Jim Crow

Are you saying slavery lasted 150 years, or that it's been over for 150 years? Neither is right, and the point is unclear. Slavery began in the colonies in the early 1600s, and when slavery ended it would still be another 100 years until segregation, housing discrimination, etc were ended by law. In practice, the legacy continued.

By and large slavery ended in 1865, over 155 years or 6 generations ago.
Scarcely anyone alive today ever knew anyone who was a slave, let alone was one.

To look at a few stats on differential levels of crime between races and conclude that black people are getting a free pass in society is ridiculous.

I'm saying if the left gets its way on this, it'll be much more difficult, if not impossible for police, judges and juries to do their job policing and prosecuting black criminals, giving them a license to commit felonies, which'll adversely impact white, brown and black communities alike.

For the record, it was 240+ years of slavery, followed by terrorism and about 100 years of de jure segregation and discrimination, then de facto segregation and discrimination, in all aspects of life including fundamental rights, housing, education, and economic opportunity.

Was that all it was, did blacks and whites not share any good times together?
I guess not.

Lately the left is talking about reintroducing segregation, that blacks should have their own hospitals, schools and police departments (even tho statistically black police don't police blacks any differently than white police, they arrest and kill blacks at about the same rate, I guess the theory is black police have been brainwashed by white police into hating themselves, my theory is blacks are just different), so maybe diversity isn't our strength after all and segregation is and was a good thing, in which case whites were doing blacks a favor by segregating them.
Thing is tho, I don't want to contribute anything to their hospitals and so on if they're not contributing anything to mine, we were right to make them pay for much of their own stuff back then.

If segregation is a good thing, maybe separation would be even better.
If blacks can't trust whites to be their nurses, teachers and policemen, maybe they should just get their own country.

Someone oughta warn immigrants before they come here, that we were founded on slavery, segregation and hate, that whites are systemically racist and nonwhites would be much better off with their own hospitals, schools and police, but hell why stop there?
With their own governors, lawmakers, prime ministers and presidents.
If we told them all that, they may not want to immigrate after all.

What I keep hearing from progressives these days is diversity is not really our strength, unless they're getting free shit and preferential treatment solely on their terms.
Now why the hell would I want to live with anyone under those conditions?

Gloominary wrote:which they're already getting reparations for

What is it that you are considering to be reparations for slavery?

Blacks are a protected class, they get all kinds of freebies whites don't get.

Gloominary wrote:even tho they'd still be slaves on the dark continent had whites not brought them over here and set them free

How confident are you about that? The Atlantic slave trade had a big impact on the economic importance of slavery in Africa and a lasting impact on the development of African societies. "The slave trade was transformed from a marginal aspect of the economies into the largest sector in a relatively short span."

As bad as Africa is, it's better off today than it was 5 centuries ago.
Sounds like many nonwhites would've preferred it had we left them in the dark ages.
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Re: Lügenpresse

Postby Gloominary » Sat May 01, 2021 5:06 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:maybe im in the fucking twilight zone or something but it seems like gloominary is trying to convince me that black on black crime or something is his real concern here. i swear to god it sounds like the dude is saying that criminals killing one another is worse than police officers doing it. maybe he is one of those people who does well under an authoritarian boot, and therefore gets a hard on for the cops. i don't know. those people exist. i dont think that we should, as a society, accept any extrajudicial killings of our citizens in the street by agents of the state.

Unlawful police killings are extremely rare, and they happen to black, brown, white and Asian people alike.
That they happen a bit more to blacks is because blacks wildly disproportionately commit more crimes.
They also tend to live in crime prone neighborhoods and have a notoriously bad attitude when dealing with police, in part thanks to progressive propaganda.
That it happens to them a bit more is their community's fault, not ours.
Therefore, insofar as unlawful police killings need to be addressed, they need to be addressed nonracially, blacks don't deserve preferential treatment, if anything browns, whites and Asians do for being relatively law abiding.
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Re: Lügenpresse

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat May 01, 2021 5:22 pm

you are brainwashed bruh
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Re: Lügenpresse

Postby fuse » Sun May 02, 2021 3:03 am

Gloominary wrote:
fuse wrote:
Gloominary wrote:do blacks get a free pass for 150 year old slavery, and Jim Crow

Are you saying slavery lasted 150 years, or that it's been over for 150 years? Neither is right, and the point is unclear. Slavery began in the colonies in the early 1600s, and when slavery ended it would still be another 100 years until segregation, housing discrimination, etc were ended by law. In practice, the legacy continued.

By and large slavery ended in 1865, over 155 years or 6 generations ago.
Scarcely anyone alive today ever knew anyone who was a slave, let alone was one.

The point you are trying to make is that slavery has been over for a long time, and that black people should have been capable of rising up to the same level as white people in that time. That view ignores post-slavery history. How many generations has it been since black people were relegated to sit at the back of the bus or stand or be denied altogether so that white people could have priority seating? That pervaded every aspect of society. After multi-generational enslavement, not only did freed black people in the U.S. not have equal rights, education, protection under the law, or opportunity for another hundred years, they also had to rebuild their families and culture amidst a society in which prevailing forces were intent on keeping them down. What do you suppose is the impact of multi-generational chattel slavery on the family unit and one's sense of heritage? What do you suppose is the impact of being "freed" into a society that has stripped you of dignity, culture, rights, and opportunities?

Gloominary wrote:
fuse wrote:To look at a few stats on differential levels of crime between races and conclude that black people are getting a free pass in society is ridiculous.

I'm saying if the left gets its way on this, it'll be much more difficult, if not impossible for police, judges and juries to do their job policing and prosecuting black criminals, giving them a license to commit felonies, which'll adversely impact white, brown and black communities alike.

Black people are not getting a free pass, nor are they asking for one. Most people want some kind of law enforcement reform. It doesn't make much sense to send people into high pressure, high risk situations with deadly weapons and inadequate training. It also might make more sense to have police or social workers who are more specialized for dealing with minor offenses, mental health issues, etc. respond to such calls instead of someone who's frame of mind is stopping violent crimes and threats.

Gloominary wrote:
fuse wrote:For the record, it was 240+ years of slavery, followed by terrorism and about 100 years of de jure segregation and discrimination, then de facto segregation and discrimination, in all aspects of life including fundamental rights, housing, education, and economic opportunity.

Was that all it was, did blacks and whites not share any good times together?
I guess not.

"the good times" during chattel slavery and racist oppression. Is the implication that there were good times of such magnitude that they offset generations of slavery and oppression? I don't know what your point is.

Gloominary wrote:Lately the left is talking about reintroducing segregation, that blacks should have their own hospitals, schools and police departments (even tho statistically black police don't police blacks any differently than white police, they arrest and kill blacks at about the same rate, I guess the theory is black police have been brainwashed by white police into hating themselves, my theory is blacks are just different), so maybe diversity isn't our strength after all and segregation is and was a good thing, in which case whites were doing blacks a favor by segregating them.

There's no widespread re-segregation movement that I'm aware of, but you do seem pretty taken by the idea that white people actually did black people a bunch of secret favors by enslaving them and making sure they didn't have access to the same privileges, advantages, and opportunities as white people.

Gloominary wrote:
fuse wrote:
Gloominary wrote:which they're already getting reparations for

What is it that you are considering to be reparations for slavery?

Blacks are a protected class, they get all kinds of freebies whites don't get.

That's not how a protected class works. Race is a protected class. Religion is a protected class. Sex is a protested class. It means people are legally protected from discrimination on the basis of race, religion, sex etc. when it comes to things like employment, housing, education and so on.

I am still interested to know what it is in particular you have in mind when you say black people are already getting reparations.

Gloominary wrote:
fuse wrote:
Gloominary wrote:even tho they'd still be slaves on the dark continent had whites not brought them over here and set them free

How confident are you about that? The Atlantic slave trade had a big impact on the economic importance of slavery in Africa and a lasting impact on the development of African societies. "The slave trade was transformed from a marginal aspect of the economies into the largest sector in a relatively short span."

As bad as Africa is, it's better off today than it was 5 centuries ago.

In spite of the Atlantic Slave Trade, not because of it.

Gloominary wrote:Sounds like many nonwhites would've preferred it had we left them in the dark ages.

Generally people prefer not to be enslaved. Would that not have been your preference for your ancestors?
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Re: Lügenpresse

Postby Gloominary » Sun May 02, 2021 10:52 pm

fuse wrote:The point you are trying to make is that slavery has been over for a long time, and that black people should have been capable of rising up to the same level as white people in that time. That view ignores post-slavery history. How many generations has it been since black people were relegated to sit at the back of the bus or stand or be denied altogether so that white people could have priority seating? That pervaded every aspect of society.

Per capita, blacks contributed less to public goods and services than whites.
I'm not saying I want to go back to segregation, I don't, but one could make the argument.

After multi-generational enslavement, not only did freed black people in the U.S. not have equal rights, education, protection under the law, or opportunity for another hundred years, they also had to rebuild their families and culture amidst a society in which prevailing forces were intent on keeping them down. What do you suppose is the impact of multi-generational chattel slavery on the family unit and one's sense of heritage? What do you suppose is the impact of being "freed" into a society that has stripped you of dignity, culture, rights, and opportunities?

We, could let blacks off the hook for some things, but outrightly not for violent crime.

Defunding and abolishing the police have become mainstream ideas, the former put into practice in some locales.
At the same time, leftwing looting, rioting and terrorism has soared.
The results have been devastating, at least for working class black, brown and white communities, but not at all for university educated, upperclass Jewish and non-Jewish white suburbanites, many of whom live in gated communities and can afford private security, naw they're doing just fine.

This is class warfare, diversify, divide and rule, they're poisoning society and politics, especially the left, stirring shit between the races, and sexes, keeping us from uniting against our common enemy, the overclass and their upper (middle) class allies.
By and large it's the upper classes who've bought into and are peddling what we've come to call wokeness, an anti-white, anti-western misandrist authoritarian ideology, not working class whites, browns and even blacks.
The vast majority of leaders of the so called 'social justice' movement, of BLM and so on are Jewish and non-Jewish affluent whites, hardly any blacks in the BLM movement.

The talking heads in the MSM incite violence and stir up hatred between the races and police, then go home to their homogeneous suburbs and laugh about it while mixed race, working class neighborhoods burn and crime soars.
These people are scum, and they need to be taken out.
By and large academia, particularly the humanities, serves the interests of the woke fascist overclass, just like the MSM.

There's no such thing as absolute parity between demographics.
Some Christian denominations wildly outperform other Christian denominations in all sorts of ways socioeconomically, for example and whatever reasons, or no reason at all, sheer randomness, per capita Episcopalians are quite a bit wealthier than Evangelicals or whatever and so on.

The woke crowd, which wields tremendous power in our society to both make and break people overnight, wants us to believe any and all differences in outcome between the races must solely be the result of 'white supremacy' past or present, which's absurd on its face
Jews and Asians tend to outperform whites and Hispanics in all sorts of ways who outperform Polynesians and Native Americans who outperform blacks and Australian Aborigines, all by quite wide margins.
Obviously there's a lot more going on here than just racism, if racism at all.

I don't think it's sheer accident some civilizations, cultures and races tended to thrive throughout history while others tended not to.
And yes I can acknowledge that without arrogance, hate or fear, just as I can admire individuals who're better than me at some things and still respect individuals who aren't as good as me at some things.
We all have our unique strengths and weaknesses.
This notion that anything less than absolute demographic parity = 'white supremacy' sows nothing but fear and hate, it's every bit as divisive as supremacism.

No we must not defund or abolish the police just because one group is lagging behind, nor should we radically redesign them solely with the interests of said group in mind.
If we agree something needs to be done, then progressives, independents and conservatives, blacks, browns and whites, each need to have some input in how policing can be improved, but most if not all progressives think they're the enlightened ones, they don't give a fuck about other voices, instead they try to ridicule and silence them, cancel, deplatform and dox, that's why increasingly no one gives a fuck what they have to say.

fuse wrote:Black people are not getting a free pass, nor are they asking for one. Most people want some kind of law enforcement reform. It doesn't make much sense to send people into high pressure, high risk situations with deadly weapons and inadequate training. It also might make more sense to have police or social workers who are more specialized for dealing with minor offenses, mental health issues, etc. respond to such calls instead of someone who's frame of mind is stopping violent crimes and threats.

It might, but that's far from the only thing progressives are calling for and implementing.

fuse wrote:"the good times" during chattel slavery and racist oppression. Is the implication that there were good times of such magnitude that they offset generations of slavery and oppression? I don't know what your point is.

Whites gradually introduced modern commerce, industry, medicine, science and tech to blacks, as well as civility, democracy, individual liberty, private property, the nation state, social welfare and so on.
First we freed them, then desegregated and welcomed them into our family.
We fought and bled together under the same flag, drank together, went to church, worked and helped raised each others' families.
It wasn't all good, not by any stretch of the imagination, but nor was it all bad either.
Now a lot of 'progressives' want to shit on all that.

Slavery is very far from ideal, but it was a different world back then.
The Muslims had an empire stretching all the way from sub-Saharan Africa to India.
Their pirates raided Europe, they enslaved and slaughtered countless people, blacks, browns and whites alike.
At one time the Mongols had an empire stretching from China to Eastern Europe wherein they enslaved and massacred tens of millions of people.
The Turks had their empires too.
Turks were thought to come from in and around the Gobi desert of what's now northwestern China, Xinjiang.
Over the course of centuries, they conquered the white, northern Iranian speaking peoples of central Europe, known as Bactrians, Sarmatians, Scythians and so on, at times genociding and displacing them, at others assimilating them biologically and culturally, taking their wives.
Now they're mostly a hybrid people of both white and East Asian stock, predominantly the latter, especially patrilineally.

To be sure, life could still be good back then, but often it was a Hobbesian, zero sum game, where only the fittest and most ruthless individuals and peoples survived, and prospered.
What we take for granted today, would've been regarded as utopian and naïve.

When Hernan Cortez came to Mesoamerica, he did not find the garden of Eden where the lion lay with the lamb, nor Rousseau's noble savage.
The Aztecs had enslaved many other Mesoamericans, just as their priests, nobility and royalty had made serfs of them, so when they met the Spaniards, soon the novelty wore off and it was more a case of 'meet the new boss, same as the old'.
At the very least the new boss didn't demand millions of human sacrifices annually.
Even hunter gatherers found plenty of reasons to fight; over prime hunting grounds and polygamous ones especially over women.
Sometimes they raided settled peoples, including Europeans and settled native Americans.

While life as a slave in the US was very far from perfect, in many ways they faired better than their relatives on the dark continent, and under segregation they faired much better.
Some Africans would literally kill to have the opportunities African Americans have today.
Now I'm not trying to say it was or is all good, far from it, just presenting the other side of the coin you don't hear about in the mainstream anymore.
It's not smart to casually pass judgement on our ancestors, to look at and assess them with strictly modern eyes and a modern mind, instead we oughta try and step into their shoes and world.
There's two sides to every coin.

'Progressives' want to turn back the clock, pit working and middleclass blacks and whites against each other, give more positive and negative rights to blacks at whites' expense with their diversity quotas and wealth transfers, make it seem as tho blacks are hunted like dogs, when clearly they're not.
I have a feeling that won't end well for anybody.

Anti-discrimination has incrementally mutated into anti-white.

fuse wrote:There's no widespread re-segregation movement that I'm aware of, but you do seem pretty taken by the idea that white people actually did black people a bunch of secret favors by enslaving them and making sure they didn't have access to the same privileges, advantages, and opportunities as white people.

But there is a re-segregation movement nonetheless and its gaining traction, and we tend to get more culturally 'progressive' with time.
Last edited by Gloominary on Mon May 03, 2021 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lügenpresse

Postby Gloominary » Mon May 03, 2021 1:43 am

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