what Marxism really is.....

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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:26 pm

Silhouette,

Maybe I would be able to discuss with you more calmly, intellectually, like phoneutria is with inimitable grace, delicious wit, terrifiying intellect, unheard-of patience, sexy hi- anyway, if these ideas you adhere to so... yes, cavallierly is a good word, so thoughtlessly, hadn't destroyed everything I have ever loved, or mangled it very badly. Maybe if my philosophical study hadn't revealed to me that things are only going to get worse, much worse, in the land I love more than you love anything, I could take it all a little easier.

But this is war, my friend. They burned my house, and killed my dog.

Why don't you take Urwrong's advice, and actually do a little selfovercoming before you so arrogantly bandy about ideas you do not understand and insult people who actually have an inkling of what's at stake. Frankly, that phoneutria keeps talking to you even though you have been so unimaginably arrogant and insulting, is a gift that I don't know you deserve. And so far are treating like trash. Even though she is so learned, so imaginative, her hair, when let loose, cascades li- anyway, even though she has put so much effort into it. That is another characteristic I have learned to attach to communists: frank disregard for beauty. But maybe she doesn't do it for you.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby iambiguous » Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:40 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Of course I understand you better than you understand yourself. Didn't I tell you that I had Marx down as a teenager? I take philosophy seriously. Your squeamishness to the loss of life has nothing to do with philosophical positions, which in your case are straight Marxist, but to the fact that the evil capitalists have pampered you to the point where violent death actually seems off to you, unusual, somehow wrong. That would all end, of course, if you and yours had your way. Thankfully there are those like Urwong who also take philosophy seriously.


I don't know if this bluster is all just tongue in cheek or whether you actually do believe that you and unwrong, unlike others, "take philosophy seriously".

Now, me, in regard to "serious philosophy", whether pertaining to Marxism or any other context that involves conflicting goods, I am always more fascinated by what seems to be the limits imposed on philosophers in regard to "I" out in the is/ought world.

In other words, there is the way any particular serious philosopher sees the world and there is the way in which they think it ought to be instead.

Me, I attribute this to the arguments I make in my signature threads. Would you be willing to start a new thread in which, in regard to your own moral and political philosophy, we explore a particular set of circumstances at the existential juncture which encompasses identity, value judgments and political economy. As these compare to the components of your own frame of mind.

Strictly an exchange of intelligence and civility.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby MagsJ » Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:49 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Silhouette,

Maybe I would be able to discuss with you more calmly, intellectually, like phoneutria is with inimitable grace, delicious wit, terrifiying intellect, unheard-of patience, sexy hi- anyway, if these ideas you adhere to so... yes, cavallierly is a good word, so thoughtlessly, hadn't destroyed everything I have ever loved, or mangled it very badly. Maybe if my philosophical study hadn't revealed to me that things are only going to get worse, much worse, in the land I love more than you love anything, I could take it all a little easier.

But this is war, my friend. They burned my house, and killed my dog.

Why don't you take Urwrong's advice, and actually do a little selfovercoming before you so arrogantly bandy about ideas you do not understand and insult people who actually have an inkling of what's at stake. Frankly, that phoneutria keeps talking to you even though you have been so unimaginably arrogant and insulting, is a gift that I don't know you deserve. And so far are treating like trash. Even though she is so learned, so imaginative, her hair, when let loose, cascades li- anyway, even though she has put so much effort into it. That is another characteristic I have learned to attach to communists: frank disregard for beauty. But maybe she doesn't do it for you.

Do you think it fair on Silhouette, that you speak on behalf of another?

You guys are mixing love and war together, and making it a commodity.. but without realising or knowing what another wants. I’ll leave it there, for now.
Last edited by MagsJ on Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:51 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Pedro I Rengel wrote:Of course I understand you better than you understand yourself. Didn't I tell you that I had Marx down as a teenager? I take philosophy seriously. Your squeamishness to the loss of life has nothing to do with philosophical positions, which in your case are straight Marxist, but to the fact that the evil capitalists have pampered you to the point where violent death actually seems off to you, unusual, somehow wrong. That would all end, of course, if you and yours had your way. Thankfully there are those like Urwong who also take philosophy seriously.


I don't know if this bluster is all just tongue in cheek or whether you actually do believe that you and unwrong, unlike others, "take philosophy seriously".

Now, me, in regard to "serious philosophy", whether pertaining to Marxism or any other context that involves conflicting goods, I am always more fascinated by what seems to be the limits imposed on philosophers in regard to "I" out in the is/ought world.

In other words, there is the way any particular serious philosopher sees the world and there is the way in which they think it ought to be instead.

Me, I attribute this to the arguments I make in my signature threads. Would you be willing to start a new thread in which, in regard to your own moral and political philosophy, we explore a particular set of circumstances at the existential juncture which encompasses identity, value judgments and political economy. As these compare to the components of your own frame of mind.

Strictly an exchange of intelligence and civility.


You weren't so picky when I was pretending to be an unhinged marxist.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:52 pm

MagsJ wrote:
Pedro I Rengel wrote:Silhouette,

Maybe I would be able to discuss with you more calmly, intellectually, like phoneutria is with inimitable grace, delicious wit, terrifiying intellect, unheard-of patience, sexy hi- anyway, if these ideas you adhere to so... yes, cavallierly is a good word, so thoughtlessly, hadn't destroyed everything I have ever loved, or mangled it very badly. Maybe if my philosophical study hadn't revealed to me that things are only going to get worse, much worse, in the land I love more than you love anything, I could take it all a little easier.

But this is war, my friend. They burned my house, and killed my dog.

Why don't you take Urwrong's advice, and actually do a little selfovercoming before you so arrogantly bandy about ideas you do not understand and insult people who actually have an inkling of what's at stake. Frankly, that phoneutria keeps talking to you even though you have been so unimaginably arrogant and insulting, is a gift that I don't know you deserve. And so far are treating like trash. Even though she is so learned, so imaginative, her hair, when let loose, cascades li- anyway, even though she has put so much effort into it. That is another characteristic I have learned to attach to communists: frank disregard for beauty. But maybe she doesn't do it for you.

Do you think it fair on Silhouette, that you speak on behalf of another?

You guys are mixing love and war together, and making it a commodity.. but without realising or knowing what another wants, feels, or needs. I’ll leave it there, for now.


I don't think very much is fair. But I consider you wise and will think about this.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby iambiguous » Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:29 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
Pedro I Rengel wrote:Of course I understand you better than you understand yourself. Didn't I tell you that I had Marx down as a teenager? I take philosophy seriously. Your squeamishness to the loss of life has nothing to do with philosophical positions, which in your case are straight Marxist, but to the fact that the evil capitalists have pampered you to the point where violent death actually seems off to you, unusual, somehow wrong. That would all end, of course, if you and yours had your way. Thankfully there are those like Urwong who also take philosophy seriously.


I don't know if this bluster is all just tongue in cheek or whether you actually do believe that you and unwrong, unlike others, "take philosophy seriously".

Now, me, in regard to "serious philosophy", whether pertaining to Marxism or any other context that involves conflicting goods, I am always more fascinated by what seems to be the limits imposed on philosophers in regard to "I" out in the is/ought world.

In other words, there is the way any particular serious philosopher sees the world and there is the way in which they think it ought to be instead.

Me, I attribute this to the arguments I make in my signature threads. Would you be willing to start a new thread in which, in regard to your own moral and political philosophy, we explore a particular set of circumstances at the existential juncture which encompasses identity, value judgments and political economy. As these compare to the components of your own frame of mind.

Strictly an exchange of intelligence and civility.


You weren't so picky when I was pretending to be an unhinged marxist.


Well, of course, if you are just pretending now not to be, then it's not worth pursuing. I'm actually serious about the limitations of political philosophy in pinning something like this down.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:40 pm

The truth is, having calmed down, that I understand and even respect Silhouette's thirst for a dispassionate, or passionate but purely philosophical exchange in order to get to deeper truths that hide behind existing theorems. It is the same thirst that drives any and all philosophers. But philosophy is also the most dangerous thing in existence, even though the love for it is soft and light, like a butterfly. On our heads lie all of the greatest atrocities committed by man or woman. The more I look at how learned philosophers communicate, the more I notice a violent disparaging of younger thirsts, simply because they are aware of how wrong anything can go.

You look at certain posters here, some of the most hated, and the trail of self-directed, stoic, unrelenting quest for understanding is evident. This is something I trust far more than an impulse to discuss ideas. How can anyone manipulate your thoughts, when they are forged exclusively by your own self, in your own inner hearth? This is the only thing the cynic school of philosophy seeks to teach. Don't let anybody tell you, nobody knows the truth, only you yourself can figure things out. So if only you yourself can figure things out, what place have I working with you to refine ideas and discover concepts? Better a book, where it is all put down, and the writer cannot correct you based on your responses. Read them, read a million, and through them into the fire of your own quest, your own thirst, your own discernment. Philosophy is a forest of extreme danger. Anybody that needs their hands held to enter it are not ready to survive it.

Can philosophy be discussed? In my view, in this current world, no. The innocent thirst that shows its shadow through Silhouette is known, expected, and used only by those who lack it. The power of this small flame has revealed itself to people that never understood it to begin with. Marx was right about one thing, though Nietzsche also said it in an obviously much cooler and more intelligent way: the time for thinking is not now, now is the time for building.

That is what the republican school of the United States of America concerns itself with. All they know is: freedom. Build and enforce a world around it, and anything else worth anything will rise in it. Communism is an old evil, the evil of men who hate freedom because they hate life in general, and want only for everything to go under the lash, like they themselves go under the lash.

Having had this revelation, I decided to dedicate my own life to contribute what I can to this cause of freedom. But on the way I met a person, and fell in love.

I will stop embarrassing her. I know this isn't right, or fair. But you try worrying about fair when you feel you are about to lose the most precious thing that ever happened in your life.

I have said my piece.

I will be close by, but I will withdraw.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:52 pm

Pedro,

That’s insane. Seriously.

Capitalism is a science, always has been... since ancient times.

The science is VERY simple, and has become much more sophisticated with technology.

I say this again and again and again....

Capitalism is simply a science that figures out how to give the LEAST amount of people the most capital without causing a revolt. That all it is.

Marxists have not FACTUALLY done this, capitalists have FACTUALLY done this!

You need to get your head screwed on straight if you plan to look good in this thread.

Am I a Marxist? Hell no

Am I a communist? Hell no

But what the fuck are you? From my perspective ... a moron (I define moron as hypocrite)

Now, I understand EVERYONE who thinks this is all that is and only oblivion follows. That’s outside the scope of this thread.

You must understand though, EVERYTHING that capitalists accuse Marxist of being and doing is what capitalists actually and have been proven to do.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby phoneutria » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:15 pm

ecmandu

employers always pay as little as possible
but the market itself prevents abuse
because the laws of supply and demand and competition also apply to trained workforce
one cannot pay so little that their labor leaves to work for the competition
thus salary rates go up
thus benefits emerge
thus paid time off is offered

also prices are driven down
which allows the population to live a better life with less money
there hasn't been any other time in history
in which the quality of life which we have now
has been accessible to so many people

mortality rates have dropped dramatically
world poverty and misery are unprecedently low
alphabetization, access to water and sanitation
life expectation
every statistic that you pick, you see drastic improvement just in the last 50 years
so I don't know what everyone is so pissed off about
maybe stop watching the news?
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:20 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Marxists have not FACTUALLY done this, capitalists have FACTUALLY done this!

Go look at Eastern Europe in 1960, Ukraine, Russia, China.

Communism has impoverished more humans this world has ever known.

Again, just another of your blatantly false, blatantly ignorant statements about world history.



Keep them coming, your ignorance only damages what little philosophical integrity you ever had in the first place.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:23 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Marxists have not FACTUALLY done this, capitalists have FACTUALLY done this!

Go look at Eastern Europe in 1960, Ukraine, Russia, China.

Communism has impoverished more humans this world has ever known.

Again, just another of your blatantly false, blatantly ignorant statements about world history.



Keep them coming, your ignorance only damages what little philosophical integrity you ever had in the first place.


Actually, your blatantly false statement is that any nation state has been communist.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:23 pm

Very wealthy people will NEVER pay very high taxes. The US IRS uses tax laws to manipulate wealthy people into doing what they want so as to avoid higher taxes - Socialist control. And even if they did sacrifice themselves and pay the taxes that they were expected to maneuver away from, they would stop being very wealthy people and not bother to do what they do to create jobs.

Saying that the wealthy will be taxed to pay for anything is 100% deception.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:27 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Actually, your blatantly false statement is that any nation state has been communist.

So you are blocking your ignorance with a logical fallacy?

Duly noted.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:29 pm

Capitalism has raised the Standard-Of-Living for all people, across the world.

Even in the poorest nations, they are gaining access to more electricity, communication, resources, food, etc.

All benefits of Capitalism/USA.


But Hate blinds the liberal-left, and can only focus on self-hate. You blind yourself to the Good produced by USA for centuries now.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:32 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Actually, your blatantly false statement is that any nation state has been communist.

So you are blocking your ignorance with a logical fallacy?

Duly noted.


Ignorance? You can count on the fingers of your hands the cultures that were actually communistic.

They were geographically native isolated tribes (islands and mountains). They had no problem getting along.

No nation-state in world history has ever been communistic.

That’s your ignorance, not mine
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:38 pm

The Soviet Union was Communist. Cuba was/is Communist. China is Communist. North Korea is Communist.

Your ignorance doesn't bother me; continue to believe whatever fantasies you require to stem your madness.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:41 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:The Soviet Union was Communist. Cuba was/is Communist. China is Communist. North Korea is Communist.

Your ignorance doesn't bother me; continue to believe whatever fantasies you require to stem your madness.


You’re an idiot. Communism is not a nation-state ideology. How ever , totalitarianism is a nation-state ideology
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:43 pm

Ecmandu wrote:You’re an idiot.

And you're a madman.

See how you have no rational arguments left? You quickly resort to Emotion.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:44 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:Your ignorance doesn't bother me; continue to believe whatever fantasies you require to stem your madness.

Bubble of belief.


Ecmandu wrote:Communism is not a nation-state ideology. How ever , totalitarianism is a nation-state ideology

He is talking about actual real life communism, not the idealistic fantasy.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:44 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:You’re an idiot.

And you're a madman.

See how you have no rational arguments left? You quickly resort to Emotion.


I am crazy. Unlike you who won’t admit you’re crazy, that makes me saner than you.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:52 pm

Ecmandu wrote:I am crazy.

That alone says that whatever else you say is to be doubted.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:55 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:I am crazy.

That alone says that whatever else you say is to be doubted.


Really? Am I supposed to say I’m sane?

People who admit they’re crazy are the sanest people on earth. The rest of you are certifiably insane.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:58 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Am I supposed to say I’m sane?

If you don't believe that you are sane, then you are saying that you can't even trust your own thoughts.

Ecmandu wrote:People who admit they’re crazy are the sanest people on earth. The rest of you are certifiably insane.

such as that thought.

Sane people believe that they are sane.
Insane people often believe they are sane.
Insane people sometimes believe that they are insane but continue to accept what their insane mind concludes = truly insane and not slowing down.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:02 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Am I supposed to say I’m sane?

If you don't believe that you are sane, then you are saying that you can't even trust your own thoughts.

Ecmandu wrote:People who admit they’re crazy are the sanest people on earth. The rest of you are certifiably insane.

such as that thought.

Sane people believe that they are sane.
Insane people often believe they are sane.
Insane people sometimes believe that they are insane but continue to accept what their insane mind concludes.


You don’t get it. Life is fucking insane. Someone who admits that they are sane (maybe a paradox) are not sane. Maybe not.

Insanity is accepting all this bullshit. For people who don’t accept all this bullshit: they are insane. (By the truly insane people).
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby phoneutria » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:14 pm

AHEM

phoneutria wrote:ecmandu

employers always pay as little as possible
but the market itself prevents abuse
because the laws of supply and demand and competition also apply to trained workforce
one cannot pay so little that their labor leaves to work for the competition
thus salary rates go up
thus benefits emerge
thus paid time off is offered

also prices are driven down
which allows the population to live a better life with less money
there hasn't been any other time in history
in which the quality of life which we have now
has been accessible to so many people

mortality rates have dropped dramatically
world poverty and misery are unprecedently low
alphabetization, access to water and sanitation
life expectation
every statistic that you pick, you see drastic improvement just in the last 50 years
so I don't know what everyone is so pissed off about
maybe stop watching the news?
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