what Marxism really is.....

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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby phoneutria » Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:13 pm

Education on simple undeniable facts like "financial profit = paying people less than what they earn you" ought to be simple enough


to start, your "udeniable fact" is false
because at the point where a product is created, the amount of money that that work has generated is zero
in fact, adding in the cost of materials and labor, the amount is severely negative
so, until the product is sold, the only thing your workers have earned you is debt

but underneath that is the ideology that serves to "justify" this simple undeniable fact - with the invalid arguments that you presented. The "risk" one is self-fulfilling: it requires itself to sustain itself. Without the consequences of the excuse of "risk", there is nothing to risk.


lol yeah exactly
there are dire consequences to risk taking
ask the likely thousands of people whose dream of becoming self-employed died with this pandemic
sorry that your point got lost in me
maybe elaborate?

The "idea creation" one, and the "business management" one, are just standard business skills routinely assigned to employees, who are required to act on these skills simply to keep the business producing, serving and progressing.


employees who get paid today
in today dollars
as opposed to imaginary future dollars
that may or may not exist
and that should feel very fortunate
to be freely employed
in their own terms
most people in the history of mankind did not have that privilege

The initial work at best justifies the same wages as you'd pay an employee to do the same, and only for as long as the benefits of initial ideas and management are effective. Businesses grow far beyond this point, potentially to a point that's nothing like its origins.


i know you're posting this like it's another "undeniable fact"
but your opinion of what justifies wages is completely irrelevant
who cares about what silhouette thinks is fair?
who the fuck are you?
is this supposed to be an argument?

Why does any initial idea creation and management continue to reap rewards far beyond employee compensation for doing the exact same thing?


i think in the US a patent is good for 20 years
at that point anyone who wants and is able to produce the same thing can go ahead
now, as to the building and maintaining of, say, a factory, the answer is because it is someone's property
"but phoneutria, that is ideology!"
well, no problem
anyone who does not subscribe to this ideology is free to do away with their property as they see fit
anyone who does subscribe to this ideology should not be forced or imposed upon by someone else's ideology, as that would be imoral

This is just economic rent. A private business is nothing more than decentralised dictatorship that cannot operate or even survive without the exploitation of employees on the grounds that the business owner has all the power to pay others much less than what others earn them. They could NOT do anywhere near the same work without the employees, and often they couldn't even do the work at all that many employees do - making them 100% necessary to the whole enterprise. The fact that someone set up the whole thing is meaningless if it can't operate.


this is false, as evidenced by the wage rates and quality of workplace in the developed countries
employers don't have dictatorial power exactly because they are forced to acknowlege the importance of their employees

if I start a company and tell people that I will pay them $1 a week to do work
literally nobody will be lining up to take those jobs
so I offer $10 an hour and i get some workers
then a competitor starts up and offers $11/h for the same work
all the employers i trained for the job while making no money threaten to leave
so I offer them $500 a week and 5 days off
my competition offers $500 a week and 6 days off
half of my guys leave
etc
it is evident by today's stadards of living
that free-market benefits everyone

it's just this dead wrong idea that a product is worth just the cost of materials and labor
it's incorrect
the entire foundation of this argument is false
there's nothing to sustain it
i can go back a couple of pages and copy/paste the thing i was trying to start on this
or we can just go over it again
actual marxist theory
this isn't going to be your run of the mill "MARX WAS EVIL NYAH NYAH NYAH" discussion
it's flawed, dude, i'll show you
let's go
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby obsrvr524 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:11 am

If you ask a christian what Christianity is, you get a lecture on saving the poor. But is that really how it works out?

If you ask a marxist what Marxism is, you get a lecture on saving the workers. It works out about the same.

In both cases trying to change their religion seems pointless.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:28 am

obsrvr524 wrote:If you ask a christian what Christianity is, you get a lecture on saving the poor. But is that really how it works out?

If you ask a marxist what Marxism is, you get a lecture on saving the workers. It works out about the same.

In both cases trying to change their religion seems pointless.
This is true for pretty much any team out there. Ask capitalists what capitalism is about and then match their answers to the full picture of capitalism.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby obsrvr524 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:17 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:If you ask a christian what Christianity is, you get a lecture on saving the poor. But is that really how it works out?

If you ask a marxist what Marxism is, you get a lecture on saving the workers. It works out about the same.

In both cases trying to change their religion seems pointless.
This is true for pretty much any team out there. Ask capitalists what capitalism is about and then match their answers to the full picture of capitalism.

Capitalism proposes that it brings progress and social energy through competition and personal hopes. When has it not done that? Communism proposes those same results by doing the opposite. When has it ever done that?
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:06 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:Capitalism proposes that it brings progress and social energy through competition and personal hopes. When has it not done that? Communism proposes those same results by doing the opposite. When has it ever done that?
Do people really think one of the two core portions of capitalism is that it brings social energy? What does that mean?

REaction one: OK, when does that not happen the progress part? Well, you can have capitalism and slavery. You can have capitalism and dictatorship and US foreign policy has often happily supported dictators out of capitalist interest and under corporate pressure. So progress for whom and and whose expense? And then what is progress? Concervatives often lament changes made is social areas, but seem perfectly fine with changes (or progress) based on suffusion of technological advances........................................

despite the fact that technological advances can radically affect social relations: digital media and the damaging of children's social skills as one example, though there are many others.

Progress is a slippery term.

CApitalism was a large factor in participation and of the creation of wars. I am not sure that is progress.

I am not sure we have progressed socially or in terms of work to compensation in the last 30 years. I think in general people are working harder for less under more stress.

And remember: there are more choices that capitalism and communism. I dislike communism to put it mildly, though I think there are lots of useful insight in Marxism. But I am also extremely critical of capitalism. Latin America for example has been pretty much raped by both.

Reaction 2: What counts as capitalism? It seems to me most forms are mixed. The US has had progressive taxes, free public education and libraries, anti-monopoly laws (that are breaking down), enormous public funding of research that has benefited everyone (and caused problems) but also benefitted the private sector, a welfare system, certain types of minimal subsidized health care and so on. There has been a lot of privitizatoin in the last few decades. One could argue that this has been adding more capitalism. How has that gone? Was it 'really' capitalism before the enormous trends in privitization?

When the GlassSpegal act was rescinded, did this make the country more capitalist? The capitalists would certainly say so. Though it led to the a near societal collapse.

Your explanation of capitalism doesn't even mention private ownership of the means of production - a definition many would put forward.

What is capitalism? Does it necessarily include fiat banking and the creation of money (and inflation) at the push of a banker's finger? Does it necessarily include current lobbying, campaign financing and other practices that eliminate representational democracy?

What I generally see is people defend capitalism by pointing at the failures of communism. Perhaps they are both extremely problematic systems. Perhaps they have been more mixed. Marxism did highlight some of the problems of capitalism and well. It offered a terrible solution in practice. But the problems remarin


REGARDLESS.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby obsrvr524 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:01 pm

I think in the prior years of political manipulating and propaganda, many issues have been conflated. Media, educators, and political efforts are always associating the good sounding things to one political stance and bad things to its opponent.

I try to understand the real issues despite the great deal of misinformation. Before casting good and evil attributes, it is important to me to clear up the language. What are people actually talking about when they say that this thing or that thing is good or bad. What I have come to believe so far is the following.

Capitalism refers to allowing the market to control the economy through competition. It has nothing to do with social justice issues either way. It doesn't disallow broad social programs unless they inhibit equitable competition, which is why slavery was abolished. Capitalism is only about what it is that controls the economy. It disincentivizes class warfare and distinction by providing a middle class range between an upper and lower class, allowing mobility between the classes through reasonably fare economic competition. It also forbids monopoly control of production through anti-trust laws. Capitalism is anti-identity politics. In a capitalist society, "progress" means greater innovation, variety, availability, productivity and quality of life for the citizens.

Socialism refers to a two class system where the upper class controls the economy and all means of production. It dictates who works at what kind of job and how much everyone will get paid. Socialism also has nothing to do with social justice issues other than as a ruse to manipulate the general population. In socialism, all activity is an upper class controlled social program. Socialism is pure identity politics. The upper class is the one monopoly over all society. In an economy controlled socialist society, the workers are in reality slaves (the expected opposite of their propaganda). Workers are paid the minimum required to maintain absolute control. In a socialist society, "progress" means greater control and conformity to the dictated class structure.

Communism refers to socialism with total equality of class and economic welfare except for the privileges of the controlling government managers. It is just a more extreme form of socialism.

Marxism is a proposed strategic manipulation scheme to grow a population from an uncontrolled state through capitalism then general socialism then finally to social communism. So Marxism is actually a communist agenda.

The so called "progressive party" refers to the progress along the Marxist route to global communism.



The other issues of who are the good and bad people or the nations starting wars or saving the poor and helpless is a separate puzzle and more difficult to surmise due to the fierce manipulative and often secretive competition between the economic ideologies. Those things must be worked out separately as the language and schemes get worked out. I often find that the proposed bad people were actually the good people once I learn more of what has really been going on.

Once it is cleared up as to what movements actually produce which effects, real solutions and more prosperity can be managed.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Magnus Anderson » Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:07 pm

observer wrote:Socialism refers to a two class system where the upper class controls the economy and all means of production. It dictates who works at what kind of job and how much everyone will get paid. Socialism also has nothing to do with social justice issues other than as a ruse to manipulate the general population. In socialism, all activity is an upper class controlled social program. Socialism is pure identity politics. The upper is the one monopoly over society. In an economy controlled society, the workers are in reality slaves (the expected opposite of their propaganda). Workers are paid the minimum required to maintain absolute control. In a socialist society, "progress" means greater control and conformity to the dictated class structure.


Who invented the term "socialism"? Does what the originator of that term said support the above? Can you provide some quotes?

I am told that it is Henri de Saint-Simon, Robert Owen and Charles Fourier who proposed first socialist models with Simon proposing centralized and the latter two proposing decentralized socialism. (In each case, the goal was to increase social justice.)

(Note that what actually matters here in this thread is how Marx defined socialism. But one can put that aside for a period of time, I suppose.)
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby obsrvr524 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:52 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:Who invented the term "socialism"? Does what the originator of that term said support the above? Can you provide some quotes?

From a quick (not always to be trusted) Wikipedia article:
Wikipedia - History of Socialism wrote:The history of socialism has its origins in the 1789 French Revolution and the changes which it brought, although it has precedents in earlier movements and ideas. The Communist Manifesto was written by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels in 1848 just before the Revolutions of 1848 swept Europe, expressing what they termed scientific socialism.

Many seem to want to argue over the nuances and minutia concerning the socialist agenda so as to promote or demote its popularity but they all seem to agree on two things:
WordNik wrote: so•cial•ism sō′shə-lĭz″əm►

n. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

n. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which the means of production are collectively owned but a completely classless society has not yet been achieved.


And again from a quick Wikipedia lookup:
Wikipedia - Marxism wrote:Marxism is a method of socioeconomic analysis that uses a materialist interpretation of historical development, better known as historical materialism, to understand class relations and social conflict as well as a dialectical perspective to view social transformation.


I think that the relevant issue of the day is whether all of society should be controlled by government (always to eventually become corrupt) or be held under a constitution that disallows total government control (through separation of powers like in the USA).

Under a constitution, capitalism inspires people to provide for themselves by providing for others in a competitive environment. Under a socialist reign (anti-constitutional) socialism disinspires incentive to do any more than necessary to not be punished (slavery in disguise).

If someone is pro-Marxism or socialism he/she will twist the narrative to make it sound more favorable (as they said "dialectical perspective to view social transformation" - twist the words). Manipulating the population is the entire control mechanism for socialists. Truth is a least priority (as is very obvious in current US politics). Capitalists merely have to untwist the narrative in order to expose the reality.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Silhouette » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:03 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:If you ask a christian what Christianity is, you get a lecture on saving the poor. But is that really how it works out?

If you ask a marxist what Marxism is, you get a lecture on saving the workers. It works out about the same.

In both cases trying to change their religion seems pointless.

If you'd bothered to read a few of the recent posts, you'd have realised that's not always the case.

Your hypocrisy here is being closed to marxists changing their minds on the grounds that THEY are the ones who are closed.

Lazy.

obsrvr524 wrote:I try to understand the real issues despite the great deal of misinformation. Before casting good and evil attributes, it is important to me to clear up the language. What are people actually talking about when they say that this thing or that thing is good or bad. What I have come to believe so far is the following.

Like most Anti-Marxists, you demonstrate no adherence to the actual literature on the subject, instead echoing the same tired misinformation that is spread by partisan parties with their own agenda.

Socialism has come to mean all kinds of different things, which are often incongruent with one another - the "one" way you paint it is just the same old equivocation with Totalitarianism, when the Marxist literature on the subject defines it as pretty much the exact opposite. For one, Socialism is intended to be classless, on account of the "working class" being the only remaining class, removing any class distinction, and therefore any material meaning to the term "class".
"How much everyone will get paid" is democratically organised by everyone in the business instead of dictated by the owner who uses "the market" as an excuse to pay employees less than what they earn the company. It has absolutely nothing to do with identity politics - that's a new movement that often allies with Marxist ideas on separate issues but there's literally nothing in the actual literature about identity politics. "Guilt by association". The State functions only as an armed body of workers to prevent any anti-revolutionary action. This role would then reduce to redundancy as the need for it diminished over time - hence the famous Marxist quote about the withering away of the state, which is the clearest indication that Marxism is anti-State that has probably ever been overlooked... The workers are in charge, literally the opposite of slaves. "Progress" is just the same as it is under Capitalism.
Communism is what's going on when the state has withered away.

So how can you pretend that your definitions are "the" definitions when the literature itself lays out something so extremely opposite to what you're trying to dictate?

Annoying and counterproductive.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:22 pm

Sil, who is in charge of a socialist regime? Like who decides who are the grunts?
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby obsrvr524 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:29 pm

Silhouette wrote:Like most Anti-Marxists, you demonstrate no adherence to the actual literature on the subject, instead echoing the same tired misinformation that is spread by partisan parties with their own agenda.

So do you put Wikipedia and WordNik in that group? I sense that you are merely going to disagree and argue with anyone who disagrees with your first impression judgement.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Silhouette » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:50 pm

WendyDarling wrote:Sil, who is in charge of a socialist regime?

The clue is in the name, which is why it's called Socialism.

Like whoever has capital in Capitalism is in charge, Feudal lords are in charge of Feudalism, social organisation is in charge of Socialism: if there's gonna be a chain of command, it's up to the people in the society to organise it.

There is nothing social about dictatorship, totalitarianism, authoritarianism, autocracy etc. That shit is poison, which I am wholeheartedly against.

obsrvr524 wrote:
Silhouette wrote:Like most Anti-Marxists, you demonstrate no adherence to the actual literature on the subject, instead echoing the same tired misinformation that is spread by partisan parties with their own agenda.

So do you put Wikipedia and WordNik in that group? I sense that you are merely going to disagree and argue with anyone who disagrees with your first impression judgement.

No?

They say what I say? :|

Wikipedia wrote:Communism (from Latin communis, 'common, universal')[1][2] is a philosophical, social, political, economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of a communist society, namely a socioeconomic order structured upon the ideas of common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money[3][4] and the state.[5][6]

Like literally, just read the first paragraph.....

You're being annoying.

Wikipedia wrote:Socialism is a political, social and economic philosophy encompassing a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership[1][2][3] of the means of production[4][5][6][7] and workers' self-management of enterprises.[8][9] It includes the political theories and movements associated with such systems.[10] Social ownership can be public, collective, cooperative or of equity.[11] While no single definition encapsulates many types of socialism,[12] social ownership is the one common element.[1][13][14]

I sense that YOUUUU are merely going to disagree and argue with anyone who disagrees with your first impression judgement.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:00 pm

Sil wrote
social organisation is in charge of Socialism: if there's gonna be a chain of command, it's up to the people in the society to organise it.


Explain how a society does that where each person has equal say?
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Silhouette » Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:23 pm

WendyDarling wrote:Sil wrote
social organisation is in charge of Socialism: if there's gonna be a chain of command, it's up to the people in the society to organise it.


Explain how a society does that where each person has equal say?

Where did you get "equal" from?

Which part of Marx's writings are you getting this from?

Equal how? In what way?
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby obsrvr524 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:35 pm

WendyDarling wrote:Sil wrote
social organisation is in charge of Socialism: if there's gonna be a chain of command, it's up to the people in the society to organise it.


Explain how a society does that where each person has equal say?

Actually that is easy. Whoever has the bigger stick simply gets everyone to agree by using false hopes and intimidation to minimally reward those who agree with him and silence and oppress all those who disagree. And in the case of the CCP, extermination is a valid option. James called it "Comply or Die".

Some people would call that a "dictatorship". I think Sil hates his own prodigy.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby phoneutria » Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:45 pm

sure, let's ignore 20 pages of discussion and start over with definitions from wikipedia
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Silhouette » Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:09 am

obsrvr524 wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:Sil wrote
social organisation is in charge of Socialism: if there's gonna be a chain of command, it's up to the people in the society to organise it.


Explain how a society does that where each person has equal say?

Actually that is easy. Whoever has the bigger stick simply gets everyone to agree by using false hopes and intimidation to minimally reward those who agree with him and silence and oppress all those who disagree. And in the case of the CCP, extermination is a valid option. James called it "Comply or Die".

Some people would call that a "dictatorship". I think Sil hates his own prodigy.

You mean progeny?

Every economic system comes down to who has the bigger stick, even Capitalism is backed by force - behind law, police, jails, military.

It's ridiculous how some imaginations extend no further than either Capitalism's dictated limitations or "false hopes and intimidation to minimally reward those who agree with him and silence and oppress all those who disagree" etc...

Phon, I'm so sorry - I wanna get to your posts, but this pissed me off and I want to put care in to my replies to you because they're refreshingly not idiotic.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:47 am

This has become merely about communists verses constitutionalists.

Which are the greater oppressed slaves?
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby phoneutria » Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:54 am

no it hasn't
read the fucking thead
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:08 am

phoneutria wrote:no it hasn't
read the fucking thead

I have but both you and Sil have admitted in the past that lying is okay as long as you are lying for the right cause. If you were voting in the US, you would be voting for Joe Biden and communist China.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby phoneutria » Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:16 am

where have i admitted that lying is okay?
not saying i didn't
but it is unlike me to say that

also what the fuck does that have to do with marxism?

also i don't fucking vote
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:34 am

phoneutria wrote:where have i admitted that lying is okay?
not saying i didn't
but it is unlike me to say that

You told me that it isn't a lie unless it can be proven to be intentional. Since it can hardly ever to be proven to be intentional and the validity of the statement isn't even questioned, lying becomes freely ethical. Also thinkdr completely ignores lying in his so called "ethics" book (typical socialist).

phoneutria wrote:also what the fuck does that have to do with marxism?

Well I was trying to discuss what Marxism is or isn't but you and Sil chose to make it personal.

phoneutria wrote:also i don't fucking vote

I could have guessed that. Considering your apparent lack of education on what is going on the world, it is probably a good thing.


Anyone still interested in what Marxism is or isn't?
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby phoneutria » Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:56 am

obsrvr524 wrote:You told me that it isn't a lie unless it can be proven to be intentional. Since it can hardly ever to be proven to be intentional and the validity of the statement isn't even questioned, lying becomes freely ethical.


i have no recollection of that, but i agree with it
it is called mens rea

the part about it becoming free ethical is all you
i don't believe that and i would not have said that
it's not properly a lie, but that does not make it correct
you shouldn't put words in people's mouths


Well I was trying to discuss what Marxism is or isn't but you and Sil chose to make it personal.


no you're littering the thread with marginally relevant crap

I could have guessed that. Considering your apparent lack of education on what is going on the world, it is probably a good thing.


you don't know me

Anyone still interested in what Marxism is or isn't?


yes I hope so
in which case i hope you will kindly fuck off soon enough so we can go back to it
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:06 am

phoneutria wrote:
Anyone still interested in what Marxism is or isn't?


yes I hope so
in which case i hope you will kindly fuck off soon enough so we can go back to it

Typical leftist - start a fight and blame the person you have attacked for the disruption.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby phoneutria » Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:08 am

lef.... have you read a word of this thread you idiot
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