what Marxism really is.....

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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby phoneutria » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:25 am

d0rkyd00d wrote:
phoneutria wrote:and she like
shared by the workers
according to their needs

i feel this might have gone too far
:-"


Yes, I think you've taken the idea that you have any comedic wit to the extreme, I'd let go of that idea.


bitch my jokes are great
ya basic af
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby phoneutria » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:33 am

also
i'm waiting for you say anything at all
that is relevant to this thread
so i can crush it
like a bug
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:34 am

USA needs a new wave of McArthyism, badly.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:50 am

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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby iambiguous » Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:05 am

d0rkyd00d wrote:
Hey iambiguous, thx for the post. It's not all Gong show anymore, fortunately, and I am here to bring back a dash of sanity to the forums. What can I say, it's cathartic.

I completely agree with you.


The only possible solution this far into their infestation is for Carleas to at least make an attempt to recruit new moderators. For the "serious" forums. The philosophy board in particular. Moderators on par with, say, Faust or Only_Humean.

Yes, there are any number of conflicts that can pop up in regard to moderation...and then the "politics" involved. That will never go away. But surely someone who does have a genuine respect for intelligent and tolerant discussion is not going to put up with Pedro and his ilk.

And, again, it's not like there aren't plenty of boards here for the sort of declamatory crap they pander to and provide.

d0rkyd00d wrote: As I mentioned, I have just begun to read Marx (well, analyses of Marx), and it sounds Marx started with what seems like a reasonable argument as PK laid out in the opening post, only to go off into many different tangents or drawing elaborate conclusions that are based on less solid, and sometimes ridiculous foundations / arguments. Does this seem like a fair interpretation to you?


From time to time I have offered my own take on Marxism. More or less along the lines of this:

Marx predicted socialism arriving historically as a result of the industrial revolution in capitalist nations. Instead, it was attempted in Tsarist Russia and in basically agrarian, peasant cultures.

And in capitalist nations, I don't think he anticipated the welfare state, the middle class, the rise of unions for some privileged sectors of the working class. Let alone the global economy as we know it today.

The real world being considerably more complicated than anything derived from a manifesto. However "scientific" it may have been in exposing the nature of political economy down though the ages.


I was once a member of RCP as a philosophy major at Towson State University. Then I shifted over to the SWP...then democratic socialism [NAM/DSA], then [finally] a social democrat.

Now, of course, I am basically a moral and political nihilist. So, my interest is less in what others think Marxism is and more in how existentially moral and political values themselves are rooted in the arguments I make in my signature threads.

Years ago I could have kept up with phoneutria and Sil and prom. Not anymore.

d0rkyd00d wrote: I would also add and argue that the majority of people do NOT want to start their own business for a vast array of reasons, but it seems odd (or maybe it doesn't) that there is a general acceptance that those individuals that haven't the ability or desire to start their own company would be so severely punished and neglected by the system via devaluation of labor.


More to the point [mine] millions and millions of men and women are needed to be wage slaves. At least until the factories and the office complexes and the service industries are completely automated. But if that ever happens who will have any money [with no jobs] to actually buy things.

Still, my own interest admittedly is less about the arguments that are made and more about how individuals come to acquire one set of assumptions leading to one set of conclusions rather than another set of assumption leading to another set of conclusions.

Again, the points embedded here:
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=185296
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby d0rkyd00d » Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:13 am

Thank you for sharing! I will peruse those threads.
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby d0rkyd00d » Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:37 pm

I'd like to share some interesting quotes as I run across them from Peter Singer's "Marx: A Very Short Introduction."

"Many of Marx's other theories have been refuted by events: the theory that wages will always tend downwards to the subsistence level of the workers; the theory of the falling rate of profit; the theory that under capitalism, economic crises will become more and more severe; the theory that capitalism will force more and more people down into the working class; and the theory that, to force wages down, capitalism requires an 'industrial reserve army' of paupers, people who are unemployed or irregularly employed, and living near the subsistence level. (p 75)."
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
-Bertrand Russell
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:51 pm

How about you just read Das Kapital you dolt.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby d0rkyd00d » Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:58 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:How about you just read Das Kapital you dolt.


I might someday. At least part 1.
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
-Bertrand Russell
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby iambiguous » Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:07 pm

Speaking of this...

"More to the point [mine] millions and millions of men and women are needed to be wage slaves. At least until the factories and the office complexes and the service industries are completely automated. But if that ever happens who will have any money [with no jobs] to actually buy things."

...it reminds of a classic Twilight Zone episode: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brain ... hipple%27s

Only Rod Serling wasn't exactly peddling Marxism here. Instead, the idea is that it is just plain wrong to treat workers this way. It's not what God would want us to do.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:10 pm

d0rkyd00d wrote:
Pedro I Rengel wrote:How about you just read Das Kapital you dolt.


I might someday. At least part 1.


Scratch that, just read a whole book.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:11 pm

You nazi scum.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby d0rkyd00d » Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:45 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:You nazi scum.


Hehe you cute.
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
-Bertrand Russell
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:46 pm

Why are nazis always so fucking creepy?
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby d0rkyd00d » Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:50 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Why are nazis always so fucking creepy?


hehe no you.
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
-Bertrand Russell
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:54 pm

Jesus.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby d0rkyd00d » Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:10 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Jesus.


Hehe you.
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
-Bertrand Russell
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby obsrvr524 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:18 pm

d0rkyd00d wrote:I'd like to share some interesting quotes as I run across them from Peter Singer's "Marx: A Very Short Introduction."

"Many of Marx's other theories have been refuted by events: the theory that wages will always tend downwards to the subsistence level of the workers; the theory of the falling rate of profit; the theory that under capitalism, economic crises will become more and more severe; the theory that capitalism will force more and more people down into the working class; and the theory that, to force wages down, capitalism requires an 'industrial reserve army' of paupers, people who are unemployed or irregularly employed, and living near the subsistence level. (p 75)."

So what is your takeaway on that? What does it mean to you?
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby d0rkyd00d » Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:25 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:
d0rkyd00d wrote:I'd like to share some interesting quotes as I run across them from Peter Singer's "Marx: A Very Short Introduction."

"Many of Marx's other theories have been refuted by events: the theory that wages will always tend downwards to the subsistence level of the workers; the theory of the falling rate of profit; the theory that under capitalism, economic crises will become more and more severe; the theory that capitalism will force more and more people down into the working class; and the theory that, to force wages down, capitalism requires an 'industrial reserve army' of paupers, people who are unemployed or irregularly employed, and living near the subsistence level. (p 75)."

So what is your takeaway on that? What does it mean to you?


I'll have to come back in a bit and quote the rest of this chapter as well, Singer does a really nice job of summing up and I'd rather not butcher it. It seems like an accurate portrayal of Marx, but I'm putting it out there to hear from folks much more seasoned in Marx than I, if there is dissenting opinion.
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
-Bertrand Russell
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby d0rkyd00d » Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:29 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:
d0rkyd00d wrote:I'd like to share some interesting quotes as I run across them from Peter Singer's "Marx: A Very Short Introduction."

"Many of Marx's other theories have been refuted by events: the theory that wages will always tend downwards to the subsistence level of the workers; the theory of the falling rate of profit; the theory that under capitalism, economic crises will become more and more severe; the theory that capitalism will force more and more people down into the working class; and the theory that, to force wages down, capitalism requires an 'industrial reserve army' of paupers, people who are unemployed or irregularly employed, and living near the subsistence level. (p 75)."

So what is your takeaway on that? What does it mean to you?


My takeaway in general as of late has been that it would be a mistake to ignore all of the positive benefits Capitalism has achieved. This is the mistake Marx and others make. It is not purely evil, and it doesn't only have poor outcomes.

Hence, my view now is that Capitalism is similar to Cyclops from X-men. Without the visor, it can be more destructive than good. But with the right way of focusing and honing it, perhaps it can be used with laser precision to achieve the outcomes we as a people desire.
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
-Bertrand Russell
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:44 pm

*shudders*
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby obsrvr524 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:47 pm

d0rkyd00d wrote:My takeaway in general as of late has been that it would be a mistake to ignore all of the positive benefits Capitalism has achieved. This is the mistake Marx and others make. It is not purely evil, and it doesn't only have poor outcomes.

Hence, my view now is that Capitalism is similar to Cyclops from X-men. Without the visor, it can be more destructive than good. But with the right way of focusing and honing it, perhaps it can be used with laser precision to achieve the outcomes we as a people desire.

That is exactly my perspective.

The mistake that I see is that there have been monopoly restrictions on capitalism that have been abused and even ignored. Mr Trump is currently pushing to remove the "230" statute that allows Google, Facebook, Twitter and the like to be free to become monopolies because unlike their competition, they do not have to worry about getting sued for liable. Any financial advantage allows for becoming the market monarchy.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby d0rkyd00d » Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:56 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:
d0rkyd00d wrote:My takeaway in general as of late has been that it would be a mistake to ignore all of the positive benefits Capitalism has achieved. This is the mistake Marx and others make. It is not purely evil, and it doesn't only have poor outcomes.

Hence, my view now is that Capitalism is similar to Cyclops from X-men. Without the visor, it can be more destructive than good. But with the right way of focusing and honing it, perhaps it can be used with laser precision to achieve the outcomes we as a people desire.


That is exactly my perspective.

The mistake that I see is that there have been monopoly restrictions on capitalism that have been abused and even ignored. Mr Trump is currently pushing to remove the "230" statute that allows Google, Facebook, Twitter and the like to be free to become monopolies because unlike their competition, they do not have to worry about getting sued for liable. Any financial advantage allows for becoming the market monarchy.


Yes, I have a feeling there are quite a few points we agree on that become obscured by other disagreements. And I should clarify, I think Capitalism in itself is neutral, and for the most part has led to better outcomes. I cannot think of a more effective way to harness man's greed to aid in the progress of humanity. But it has come with unintended ill effects that are being ignored that should have been addressed yesterday, and this is why the "the people" are justifiably upset.

I've only just started coming into contact with thought and ideas around just how destructive monopolies are. If you have any suggested reading I'd like to check it out.
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
-Bertrand Russell
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby iambiguous » Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:12 pm

d0rkyd00d wrote:...I think Capitalism in itself is neutral, and for the most part has led to better outcomes.


With Marx, what seems most crucial is that capitalism is an organic phenomenon. Embedded in materialism. Evolving historically out of mercantilism and a burgeoning world trade. Whereas those like Ayn Rand encompassed it in an objectivist philosophical assessment. As an idealist.

As though the failure of slash and burn, nomadic and hunter and gatherer communities etc., was that they didn't have a John Galt around to turn them into capitalists too.

It all revolves around political economy...the inherent intertwining of the substructure and the superstructure.

Then this part:

Marx predicted socialism arriving historically as a result of the industrial revolution in capitalist nations. Instead, it was attempted in Tsarist Russia and in basically agrarian, peasant cultures.

And in capitalist nations, I don't think he anticipated the welfare state, the middle class, the rise of unions for some privileged sectors of the working class. Let alone the global economy as we know it today.

The real world being considerably more complicated than anything derived from a manifesto. However "scientific" it may have been in exposing the nature of political economy down though the ages.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby d0rkyd00d » Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:24 pm

You have a copy as well? :-) I'm enjoying Singer's explanations, as oversimplified as they may be.
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -Voltaire

"If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do."
-Bertrand Russell
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