perpetualburn wrote:Fixed Cross wrote:Great post. I disagree with Nietzsche on Shakespeare and honestly think it is because things need to be read in their native language, poetry especially.
Shakespeare not in English is like tennis on a sloping soggy hill. It has nothing to do with Shakespeare's power. It is all in the sound. At least so I discovered when I set about reading Hamlet aloud and suddenly realized it wasn't a somewhat boring drudging piece but ecstatically awesome, word for word.
Whatever N has said on the English is facile. I attribute this to his admiration for and service of Bismarck, who loathed nothing more than Englishmen. And, because N was wise, he consequently said very little about the English indeed.
Have you tried reading Shakespeare in German?
I just tried. Im thinking these translations might be the underlying causes of the great wars.
Terrible.
I imagine the English translation of Nietzsche is relatively better than the German translation of Shakespeare (Other than some poems most of Nietzsche is prose)
But thats treacherous. It seems good, but it lacks a layer, in the case of Zarathustra, of subtle commentary if you know what I mean which runs through the usages of specific vernacular, sounds, essentially.
"Schleicht dich", a basic Viennese reproach, rebuke, mild curse, translates as "sneak yourself away", but that only goes so far in carrying the psychic imprint of the word.
Zarathustra is written very much to the ear rather than to the abstract mind. But the concepts are very real so it translates as a powerful book - but it seems abstract where it really isn't.
I mean, imagine trying to translate "A Lover's Complaint' (the companion poem to The Sonnets) to German (
http://shakespeare.mit.edu/Poetry/LoversComplaint.html)... It's barely comprehensible in English... I didn't even appreciate Shakespeare until I was in my late 20's... Along with some of the sonnets, probably the most esoteric writing in English.
Phew, yeah. No, that would be tough to convey, but tougher really, than Rome & Juliet?
Romeo oh Romeo, warum doch bist du Romeo
haha, no that works. Perfectly in fact.
even better maybe lol, it becomes a sincere philosophical question.
audience is found scratching their heads and stroking goatees.
Hm.
Warum doch indeed.
It's just strange that Nietzsche would skip over The Sonnets... Superman=lightest thing on earth, a shadow, has not yet arrived... Shakespeare's fair youth: a "slight muse"(i.e. insubstantial, barely there yet so profound in importance like the Superman), a brightly shining shadow, has not yet truly arrived (Sonnet 55)... Like Nietzsche's experience of the Superman, it seems Shakespeare has only experienced the fair youth as a dream or vision...but he's REAL, something that will come.
I will read into the Sonnets with this mind. That could be interesting. In the vein of taking the most potent stuff humans have brought forth as fit for the cauldron that speweth forth the Superman.
Also an example of the hard to translate German term Ueber, and frankly, the issue of Mensch - it it certainly not Man, but Human. Man is Mann.
Uebermann. That's not what he says. It is very specifically bigendral. Superhuman. Beyondhuman. Overhuman. But all of that is just terrible, because he only speaks of a qualitative transcendence, not some archetypical, categorical thing.
It is normative. Better-human. So Superman is sort of the best, given it is honest about its subjectivity.
But it doesn't sound right. It doesn't indicate the direction.
The upward-evolved-human, the angelic human, the demigod, the horned fisherman, ...
Maybe I'm full of shit and it doesn't matter in the least, as its a concept. But then again.
On the subject of men and women -
I didn't say that men in general are better than women in general, but that the rarest of men is something more special than the rarest of women.
http://www.shakespeares-sonnets.com/sonnet/53 "But you like none, none you, for constant heart."
"SHAKESPEARE
(April 23, 1664-1889)
Nay, Master, dare we speak? O mighty shade,
Sitting enthroned where awful splendors are,
Beyond the light of sun, or moon, or star,
How shall we breathe thy high name undismayed?
Poet, in royal majesty arrayed,
Walking with mute gods through the realms afar—
Seer, whose wide vision time nor death can bar,
We would but kiss thy feet, abashed, afraid!
But yet we love thee, and great love is bold.
Love, O our master, with his heart of flame
And eye of fire, dares even to look on thee,
For whom the ages lift their gates of gold;
And his glad tongue shall syllable thy name
Till time is lost in God’s unsounded sea!"
-Julie C.R. Dorr a really great poet in her own right showing her deference
The temples of soul that he lit, in so many private dungeons, millions of paths woven from royal red wool by the conjuring light of this lantern, how many adorers, how many gods with fewer adorers and none of such purity,
etc
yeah great man.
However, this poem above, it could be translated in German - it is heavy handed enough, the frivolities are not as visceral and not as phosphoric, their foam, Aphrodisian content is contained within the semantic meaning.
* I mean can you imagine reading Zarathustra in English... oh um oops.
But Zarathustra is conceptual poetry, alchemy. It is not in the impact of the spoken word, as Shakespeare is - it isn't as "superficially" musical. Though it really kind of sucks to read it in English, the bigger concepts largely come across.
What does not in the least come across is the humour. Or does it? I find especially book 1 impossible to read without laughing very often at quite small things.
lol, well I took German for 2 weeks (or was it 2 days) in college... But quickly realized there was no way I was ever going to become fluent unless someone kidnapped me, threw me in a dungeon and tortured me relentlessly in until I finally became fluent.... even then I would still probably be too obstinate... there are words in German that are the size of entire sentences... who needs that.
Do you prefer TSZ in Dutch over English?
Yes, vastly.
Dutch is very close to German in sensibilities. It is significantly milder and less misanthropic in Dutch because there simply isn't such venom in this tongue, but it is colder in a sense more Eurasiatic, stoically pagan. It runs down the same hill, as a cadence.
But mind you, the non poetic Nietzsche isn't wanting in English in any way. His quality is akin to steel, a quality English handles very well.
I would say Beyond Good and Evil is better in English than it is in Dutch. Because it is an essentially modern book.
Yes women are more naturally disposed to appreciate creating "beyond themselves."... But it's the sacrifice of higher men that will lead to the arrival of the Superman. But of course these men need good mothers too.
Exactly.
Thats not a trivial point or side issue.
When N speaks of Discipline and Breeding in section IV of the Will to Power, he doesn't mention women. But this only means we need to do that for him. Breeding without examination of woman is rather ... impossible
Ok Perpetualburn,
What would the Curriculum look like?
Well, we don't even know if the Superman is even born in some traditional sense... we only know per TSZ that he arrives...
Thats terrible lol. You're giving potentially rise to a whole new UFO movement.
But to be fair N makes it pretty well clear that he is talking about a step in evolution, and an earthly thing.
Given also that the she (I did that instinctively) is the meaning of the Earth.
Hm. I may refer to there Uebermensch in the female gender.
Men, are as little worthy of it as women, probably less so at the moment. Gender-wide, I mean. By and large.
Women have to be as involved in the rearing of this dastardly thing as men and in physical terms much more.
I do think there needs to be some normality in education (sports hanging out with friends etc )... Not just some kid being treated like a science experiment in an effort to raise him into a god or something... The most divine is also the most normal, "simple" (the subdued sophistication and simplicity of the Greek gods vs the Ornate Asian gods) ... my most religious experiences have always been at this cross section of divine and normal.
Yes. He could be a goat herding kid in the mountains, though he would have to meet a lot of interesting travellers.
Raised at a mountain-crossroads by necessity and a sublime witch.
But what of the girl he is interested in - she needs to be superhuman as well, and how does that work?
Is she a pagan type, or a delicate princess of longstanding cultural refinement?
Both, of course - but the woman has not much been discussed.
I once almost slipped into sleep as I was laying in my bed concentrating dutifully on someone I love, but before actually falling into sleep, the beginning of a cross of wet gold flashed in my mind's eye with incredible realness... You know that feeling when you catch yourself before actually falling asleep as if you're falling off the bed and you get an adrenaline rush...it was like that expect i was jostled back awake by this vision that was literally seared into my memory.... My one and only vision of a cross...which i immediately associated with Eros without any mental deliberation...not Christ ironically...
Well not ironically, thankfully. That sounds powerful.
Wet gold, as in made wet with water or as in molten?
I dunno, Cananda gets cold as fuck in the winter... I don't even like the winters in Massachusetts...anything below 10 degrees fahrenheit can GTFO ...(you have much more mild, civilized winters in the Netherlands... I dunno why you chose Cananda to set up camp if you're financially location independent but i digress) ... For nature and space it's great I suppose... but eventually he (the Superman) will have to venture out of the Icy North like the Vikings and hopefully reconquer some more choice locations like Los Angeles or Cape Town
I love the crisp cold and the long lasting snow deep but Im settled back in the Netherlands, I wasn't able to get a permanent visa, work permit, etc. But the spaces, are just incomparable. NL is the densest country population wise in the hemisphere, world wide after Bangladesh. Amsterdam is around and under sea level, causing very dank pressures and a unified atmosphere. Impossible to have a separate aura.
Canada is the most unspoiled country perhaps on the planet, and the Quebecers are essentially, medieval French people, really fucking well bred for life, without bullshit and with a great deal of vigour and grace.
French Montreal is the sweetest place Ive ever been in hands down, and I mean the crisp sweetness of a frozen world.
Cape Town sounds right though.
Astro-mythologically, this Uebermensch might indeed be ruled by Poseidon, who in a sense is beyond the Titans, and obeys to no master. The depths of his realm are unmatched, the secrets more fundamental and strange than anywhere, perhaps it could be said that the bottom of the Ocean is the true depth of space, of cosmic existence.
Though of course there are great oceans on many other planets, this one of water, must be quite unique.