On Poor White America Versus Liberal Misunderstandings.

[Is_Yde_opN]

Common sense is much about common sensibilities and it’s true, society is splitting up into factions with different sensibilities.

This split is not so much between classes or income levels, it’s much more along racial lines.
This also fits with the remnants of liberal Whites who stand apart from other Whites while at the same time they are also the ones who have adopted an anti-White sentiment. They are those who have been inoculated the most by it.

As White identity is on the rise, the efforts will be increased to diffuse this identity through bringing up fake class concerns.

The reality is that while the battleground is the White working class today, it’s not exclusive to the working class. It’s just that they are the canary in the coal mine and are the people who now respond to calls of White solidarity because they bear the brunt of the anti-Whiteness, the anti-Gentile-ness of the current elite.

[Faust]

Alf - "There is no contradiction between being a poor and being a well educated white. Either you (a) are too dumb to know the facts (and correct premises), or you (b) use bogus arguments - rhetorically or not rhetorically (see: a)."

I am not claiming there is a contradiction. That's just the wrong word. Absent mental illness, a physical disability or some behavior that both costs money and prevents the earning of money, it's unusual for any american who has an education to be truly poor. This is more especially so for white people than for most minorities. Hippies, who are not very common, don't care about money, so shouldn't be complaining.

So far, you have offered no clues to my question. Although you are not who I asked.

What's it all about, Alfie?

[Alf]

There is no contradiction between being a poor and being a well educated white. Either you (a) are too dumb to know the facts (and correct premises), or you (b) use bogus arguments - rhetorically or not rhetorically (see: a).

I am not claiming there is a contradiction. That's just the wrong word. Absent mental illness, a physical disability or some behavior that both costs money and prevents the earning of money, it's unusual for any american who has an education to be truly poor. This is more especially so for white people than for most minorities. Hippies, who are not very common, don't care about money, so shouldn't be complaining.

So far, you have offered no clues to my question. Although you are not who I asked.

What's it all about, Alfie?

Why are you, for example, "curious to know why any educated person, especially a white one, can be chronically poor"? Why do you not know this? If you really know that there isn't a contradiction between being a poor and being a well educated white, why are you asking all this and saying that you "don't know, which is why" you are "asking"?

So, Otto,you're poor and educated. And white. Can you explain why you are all of these things? I mean why you are white and educated yet poor? I talk to poor white people a lot. Mostly, they're mentally ill or lazy. Or they just don't care much about money. Or they have a drug problem. What is your story?

I am curious to know why any educated person, especially a white one, can be chronically poor. I do know that there can be reasons, some of which I have mentioned. None of those may be the reason why otto is poor, despite being educated. It could be a physical disability. I don't know, which is why I am asking.

[Mr Reasonable]

This is America. If you give a shit about money at all, and get off your ass to try and get some, it's not that hard really.

[WendyDarling]

Most people don't have the social network to exploit as you have Mr., most don't live via wheelin' and dealin". There's a whole different mentality involved in a lifestyle built around that mindset that most people lack.

What some people lack in initiative, others lack in perseverance, most wing it without an airtight plan and for a few that pans out be it by "right place at the right time" or "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours," but let's face it, most people don't have anything to really scratch someone else's back with when they are starting out other than verbal bullshit in the form of promisorial exchanges and platitudes, so it's not so easy to get anywhere independently without boosts made by others along the way. Making it on their own doesn't happen for most unless their self-made operation costs virtually nothing, and requires no manpower. And did I mention that the employment opportunities outside the tech industry are a long ways from what they use to be?

[Faust]

Wendy, most americans are not poor. Most americans do have a social network. Most americans don't work in tech, per se. I spent fifteen or so years working in restaurants. I have had sales jobs that do not require post-secondary education. And there are many other industries that do not require college and will keep a body out of poverty. I have been broke, but I've never been poor, despite working in fields that do not require any particular education.

And as I have said, there are plenty of reasons why an american can be poor.

Immigration is not one of those reasons.

I live in an area where textile manufacturing still exists on American soil. There is loads of work for the manufacturers - the one thing they lack is labor. They pay legal wages. They rely on immigrants because no one else will take the work. The immigrant labor pool just isn't what it used to be. I have been involved in efforts to train new workers for those manufacturers. I have heard wages as high as $18.00/hr which is a living wage here, even if it is not elsewhere. Purchasing power. But native white people simply will not do the work.

By the way, the wages paid in the needle trades here is far more than in Asia and more than in other parts of the U.S. where the needle trades still exist. Which is only a few places. The biggest problem in textile manufacturing is that Americans continually choose to buy foreign goods because they are so much cheaper. I just bought some socks made in Vermont. But it took me a while to find american made wool socks. Most people prefer Chinese polyester. Much cheaper.

I don't buy these socks because I am a liberal. But I do understand the economics of Vermont-made socks vs China-made socks.

[Alf]

POVERTY almost evrywhere IN THE USA:



MAKE IT GREAT AGAIN?

[WendyDarling]

Wendy, most americans are not poor.

What USA are you from? People buy Chinese socks because they cannot afford $10+ for a pair of socks. If you are in Vermont, that is a white, affluent, snobby state...so what the hell do you know in your insulated bubble of BS? I know I'm wasting my time discussing common sense stuff for that is not your forte...like the reality that 50% of the folks earn under $35,000 and once the baby boomers (who make more collecting retirement pensions and social security pay than full-time workers now) die the 50% will jump to 80%. Ask yourself, why the poverty level on our tax forms hasn't risen since the 1990's or possibly even before then? The poverty level on the tax forms is what $25,000 and it's been that way for at least 30 years because Congress can't raise that figure or the government will eliminate a huge portion of their tax revenue. It took 30 years for the minimum wage to double, but the cost of living has risen three times that rate.

My favorite are the people who live off of their credit cards to make ends meet as they fall into poverty. They do not earn enough to cover the rising expenses so they subsidize with the good intentions of paying back those credit cards, but the payback portion never happens.

Your work experiences decades ago don't count Faust 'cuz times have changed or haven't you taken the time to honestly notice?

[WendyDarling]

Most americans do have a social network.

No, they don't. Most people can count their friends on one hand. Sure, they have friendly acquaintances, visited with a few times in person and chatted up on social media, but them are no strings familiars, not people who open doors for you. Most poor people only know people who have similar circumstances, so entrepreneurs in poor communities are rare. You have to have a social network filled with all kinds of people from all over your country or the world who have connections and financing in various fields that might propel your ambitions forward and most people don't have that.

Most americans don't work in tech, per se.

No kidding. But that's where the high paying jobs reside. Most other fields have salary/wage stagnation and its been that way for the last two decades, but the cost of living continues to rise.

I have heard wages as high as $18.00/hr which is a living wage here

What does a "living wage" mean to you? Can a living wage afford to spend $15 for one pair of socks for everyone in their family regularly?

The income total for $18 hourly (40 hrs. wk.X 4 wks. X 12 months) is $34, 560 before taxes, etc. $34, 560 was a decent income in the 1980's but 30 years later it's living in poverty.

[Is_Yde_opN]

To say something about immigration or immigrants one must specify who these immigrants are.
Race and ethnicity are real and are not merely about some thought to be superficial skin color or body shape.
This doesn’t mean that there aren’t further differences within said races and ethnicities.

People are not blank slates which only need to be brought into the ‘right’ environment to adapt to it within a generation or two.
Social cohesion suffers greatly in a diverse, multi-cultural/multi-racial environment.
Social networks disappear, social care disappears, people become increasingly cynical.

Not all people are good at governing themselves, selling themselves in the modern ‘liberated’ social-economy but they have to because something something, diversity is our strength. And no, that’s not merely a weakness which should be corrected, it’s part of what makes social cohesion even possible in the first place.

Division through diversity which is inevitable is good for a ruling class which does not want to be usurped by those who are discontent with the direction society is moving along.

Immigration is not a strength, it’s obviously destructive of existing social networks but we are told this ‘change’ is good and inevitable.
No, it’s not good and it’s not inevitable, in fact it needs to constantly be pushed and explained how it is good and how it is inevitable because it’s not good for the people and not inevitable.

Those who import certain demographics of Mexicans, import the society, norms and social rules which are present among those demographics of Mexicans.
No, they won’t adapt to some American principles and social norms. Those norms, social rules, laws and so forth only exist because of the specific not exchangeable people who comprise the society within which those customs and morals are present. Diluting the population is diluting its culture as well.

Those who seek to improve the quality of life in a society have to improve the quality of the stock of people living already in the country, the future generations.

[Faust]

Wendy, most americans are not poor.

What USA are you from? People buy Chinese socks because they cannot afford $10+ for a pair of socks. If you are in Vermont, that is a white, affluent, snobby state...so what the hell do you know in your insulated bubble of BS? I know I'm wasting my time discussing common sense stuff for that is not your forte...like the reality that 50% of the folks earn under $35,000 and once the baby boomers (who make more collecting retirement pensions and social security pay than full-time workers now) die the 50% will jump to 80%. Ask yourself, why the poverty level on our tax forms hasn't risen since the 1990's or possibly even before then? The poverty level on the tax forms is what $25,000 and it's been that way for at least 30 years because Congress can't raise that figure or the government will eliminate a huge portion of their tax revenue. It took 30 years for the minimum wage to double, but the cost of living has risen three times that rate.

My favorite are the people who live off of their credit cards to make ends meet as they fall into poverty. They do not earn enough to cover the rising expenses so they subsidize with the good intentions of paying back those credit cards, but the payback portion never happens.

Your work experiences decades ago don't count Faust 'cuz times have changed or haven't you taken the time to honestly notice?

I'm not in Vermont. I sent away for them.

I agree about the minimum wage being too low. I kinda thought that was a liberal view. So now i am confused.

Regardless, the feds could raise the minimum wage with or without immigration. It should be raised, regardless of immigration. But this still does not answer my question. People with an education can easily get jobs that pay more than the minimum wage and in fact, many states have higher MW's than the federal rate.

My question remains - why would a college educated white person in america be poor? Absent some other factor, such as those I have already mentioned.

BTW, household income is a much better measure of poverty, for what I hope to be obvious reasons. The median HH income is in the $55,000 range.

Single parent families - that's another driver of poverty.

Now, we can argue about all the real reasons for poverty, but the real solutions will be a liberal (or even very liberal) agenda. So all you real liberals, make your case. So far, you have not.

[Faust]

Wendy, i can tell you - truly poor people have a very much deficient social network. And that is one of the leading causes (and effects) of poverty. The main factor that corrects that condition is the Welfare State. The social safety net, most of which is not available to illegals, is the bread and butter of liberals, and the reason that poor people don't simply perish.

That's the irony. if you want to eliminate poor white people, you need to vote for Hillary. Or let them die.

I did not vote for Hillary. Nor would i ever vote for Hillary. But i didn't vote for Donald, either.

Eliminating poverty would mean that the safety net is there but has some holes. It requires the understanding that the government cannot solve all of your problems. But it could provide free education past high school for those that want it and are capable. Which is almost everyone. Not necessarily college, but something. It also requires that whiny types like you take some personal responsibility.

[WendyDarling]

Regardless, the feds could raise the minimum wage with or without immigration. It should be raised, regardless of immigration. But this still does not answer my question. People with an education can easily get jobs that pay more than the minimum wage and in fact, many states have higher MW's than the federal rate.

How is it that some states have no minimum wage or it falls well below the national minimum of $7.25? How can someone survive on $15 hr. in NYC? The swamp needs draining NOW!

Colleges aren't recommending jobs that ensure economic security to incoming students, so the kids are getting degrees in fields that no longer offer opportunities. Sure, those with bachelors degrees can wait tables while they pursue their master's degrees in a field where good paying jobs exist, which is what many are doing because most bachelors degrees are worthless these days, a dime a dozen.

What do you consider a decent income for a bachelor's degree holder?

[Faust]

Regardless, the feds could raise the minimum wage with or without immigration. It should be raised, regardless of immigration. But this still does not answer my question. People with an education can easily get jobs that pay more than the minimum wage and in fact, many states have higher MW's than the federal rate.

How is it that some states have no minimum wage or it falls well below the national minimum of $7.25? How can someone survive on $15 hr. in NYC? The swamp needs draining NOW!

Colleges aren't recommending jobs that ensure economic security to incoming students, so the kids are getting degrees in fields that no longer offer opportunities. Sure, those with bachelors degrees can wait tables while they pursue their master's degrees in a field where good paying jobs exist, which is what many are doing because most bachelors degrees are worthless these days, a dime a dozen.

What do you consider a decent income for a bachelor's degree holder?

This is a very nanny state view. What you are saying implies that government step in and ensure that everyone gets at least a wage that allows them to live comfortably in any community, including Manhattan. And that colleges be required to guide every student to a lucrative career. Very liberal stuff.

The stats don't bear out your claim about the worth of bachelor's degrees. They are far from worthless. Anyone can get this information. Unless the Pew Center, the Census Bureau and everyone else who has looked it this are part of a vast conspiracy.

A decent income? That goes to purchasing power, which varies by location. It's more complicated than just income. Which I have been trying to say. I'm not sure that a degree should be tied to income. But they are, in fact, tied to income. Statistically.

[WendyDarling]

BTW, household income is a much better measure of poverty, for what I hope to be obvious reasons. The median HH income is in the $55,000 range.

My parents (bachelor degree holders) earned more than that back in the 1980's, so thirty years ago that was a decent, middle-class hh income. Now it's more like $110,000 needed to remain middle-class, but more than 50% of hh incomes fall way short of that. What's sad is that many poor people believe that they are actually middle-class.

[WendyDarling]

The stats don't bear out your claim about the worth of bachelor's degrees.

Source of current stats?

[WendyDarling]

This is a very nanny state view. What you are saying implies that government step in and ensure that everyone gets at least a wage that allows them to live comfortably in any community, including Manhattan. And that colleges be required to guide every student to a lucrative career. Very liberal stuff.

Careers are born in colleges so they have a responsibility to make students aware that what their parents had no longer exists, those careers have been phased out in availability and incomes. Since when is common sense a liberal mindset? Sorry, you are wrong. Since when is Manhattan the whole of NYC?

I keep asking you questions, why won't you be honest with your answers?

[Alf]

Wendy, most americans are not poor.

What USA are you from? People buy Chinese socks because they cannot afford $10+ for a pair of socks. If you are in Vermont, that is a white, affluent, snobby state...so what the hell do you know in your insulated bubble of BS? I know I'm wasting my time discussing common sense stuff for that is not your forte...like the reality that 50% of the folks earn under $35,000 and once the baby boomers (who make more collecting retirement pensions and social security pay than full-time workers now) die the 50% will jump to 80%. Ask yourself, why the poverty level on our tax forms hasn't risen since the 1990's or possibly even before then? The poverty level on the tax forms is what $25,000 and it's been that way for at least 30 years because Congress can't raise that figure or the government will eliminate a huge portion of their tax revenue. It took 30 years for the minimum wage to double, but the cost of living has risen three times that rate.

My favorite are the people who live off of their credit cards to make ends meet as they fall into poverty. They do not earn enough to cover the rising expenses so they subsidize with the good intentions of paying back those credit cards, but the payback portion never happens.

Your work experiences decades ago don't count Faust 'cuz times have changed or haven't you taken the time to honestly notice?

He hasn't taken the time to honestly notice all that. All this liberals or leftists live in a fantasy world and deny any kind of reality.

[WendyDarling]

'50s middle class [People still live in these homes, may have even slapped on some newer siding, and really believe that they are the middle class Jones']

'70s middle class
2000s middle class

2017 upper middle class

$110,000 hh income won't put you into the 2017 upper middle class house, but more like...the 1970's or 2000's house if you're lucky with excellent credit.

[Alf]

BTW, household income is a much better measure of poverty, for what I hope to be obvious reasons. The median HH income is in the $55,000 range.

My parents (bachelor degree holders) earned more than that back in the 1980's, so thirty years ago that was a decent, middle-class hh income. Now it's more like $110,000 needed to remain middle-class, but more than 50% of hh incomes fall way short of that. What's sad is that many poor people believe that they are actually middle-class.

That's really sad. Those who believe that they are actually middle-class are mostly ex middle class. Having been middle class, they know the habit of lying without shame. Beyond an income of "x" almost everyone is cynical and denies reality, partly or absolutely.

[Faust]

The stats don't bear out your claim about the worth of bachelor's degrees.

Source of current stats?

There are many easily googled sources.

"Careers are born in colleges so they have a responsibility to make students aware that what their parents had no longer exists, those careers have been phased out in availability and incomes. Since when is common sense a liberal mindset? Sorry, you are wrong. Since when is Manhattan the whole of NYC?

I keep asking you questions, why won't you be honest with your answers?"

This is remarkable. No personal responsibility. It's always someone else's fault.

L-I-B-E-R-A-L.

[Mr Reasonable]

BTW, household income is a much better measure of poverty, for what I hope to be obvious reasons. The median HH income is in the $55,000 range.

My parents (bachelor degree holders) earned more than that back in the 1980's, so thirty years ago that was a decent, middle-class hh income. Now it's more like $110,000 needed to remain middle-class, but more than 50% of hh incomes fall way short of that. What's sad is that many poor people believe that they are actually middle-class.

My parents made less than half that between them in the 80s. No wonder you feel so entitled and helpless.

[Faust]

Alf, wendy: How much do you want and why don't you have it?

How much income is enough, and what is between you and that income?

I'm not going to tell you how much money I make, but it's nothing like $110,000. Is 50k enough? Why or why not? A bachelor's degree, depending on the major, should get you that.

Honestly, i don;t really care. What I care about is bad arguments. And the one i am going after is that immigration, legal or otherwise, is keeping college educated white people from a middle class living.

No one here seems to know the answer.

Niddling little points, which we have all made, are not that interesting.

But Mr R has a point. Why are you so helpless? Who needs to come to your rescue and why do you need rescuing? What happened to you? Who did it?

[Mr Reasonable]

When your parents can afford to buy you clothes and take to you doctors and dentists, and when there's always food at your house, and power and water and heat, and when you get presents for birthdays and xmas, you grow up to be a helpless entitled idiot who can't envision a scenario where someone isn't supposed to take care of you.

"Not having a social network, and counting your friends on one hand", is a luxury that maybe you can't afford. If you weren't so judgemental about others, then maybe you could become part of a community and find better opportunities.

[WendyDarling]

The stats don't bear out your claim about the worth of bachelor's degrees.

Source of current stats?

There are many easily googled sources. I asked for your source since you are under the delusion that you know something.

"Careers are born in colleges so they have a responsibility to make students aware that what their parents had no longer exists, those careers have been phased out in availability and incomes. Since when is common sense a liberal mindset? Sorry, you are wrong. Since when is Manhattan the whole of NYC?

I keep asking you questions, why won't you be honest with your answers?"

This is remarkable. No personal responsibility. It's always someone else's fault.

L-I-B-E-R-A-L.

What's truly remarkable is that you are paying an institution to educate you but that you, Faust, don't believe that they have that responsibility. What's also incredible is that you cannot be honest during a discussion in which you are partaking...not really, right? You are all smoke and luke warm air. The headless horseman has more going on upstairs than you, I get that now.

Are you and Peter K. close relations?

What I care about is bad arguments.

Please stop making them then.