Reforming Democracy

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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby gib » Mon Mar 28, 2016 3:31 am

HaHaHa wrote:Glad to see you coming to your senses Gib and you're quite correct in elaborating the many flaws with democracy.


Honestly, I don't feel like I've come to my senses. I feel like I've simply gone through a shift. I don't like being this cynical, but that's where I am right now. Hopefully, I'll be able to think of a more positive way to think of all this.

Eric_The_Pipe wrote:(HI GIB! I don't know how long I'll be back, but it's good to see you are still here.)


Yeah, I'm still here, will be for a long time to come. I'm hoping this thread dies pretty soon, but I'll keep replying so long as other people keep posting.
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby James S Saint » Mon Mar 28, 2016 3:48 am

HaHaHa wrote:Constitutional Republic is what devolved into our current state of existence right now.

Oligarchy and plutocracy wet dream.

I don't think that murder qualifies as "evolving" into a rotting corpse.
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:22 am

gib wrote:
HaHaHa wrote:Glad to see you coming to your senses Gib and you're quite correct in elaborating the many flaws with democracy.


Honestly, I don't feel like I've come to my senses. I feel like I've simply gone through a shift. I don't like being this cynical, but that's where I am right now. Hopefully, I'll be able to think of a more positive way to think of all this.

Eric_The_Pipe wrote:(HI GIB! I don't know how long I'll be back, but it's good to see you are still here.)


Yeah, I'm still here, will be for a long time to come. I'm hoping this thread dies pretty soon, but I'll keep replying so long as other people keep posting.



A more positive way of thinking about all of this? Good luck with that.

You know, there are different ways of positive outlooks.

Take me for instance, I view that a lot of people need to die in order to make this world a better place. Oh sure, it's all very relative and subjective conjecture but you can see where I am going with all of this. ;)
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:23 am

James S Saint wrote:
HaHaHa wrote:Constitutional Republic is what devolved into our current state of existence right now.

Oligarchy and plutocracy wet dream.

I don't think that murder qualifies as "evolving" into a rotting corpse.


Explain.
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:24 am

Eric_The_Pipe wrote:
HaHaHa wrote:Constitutional Republic is what devolved into our current state of existence right now.

Oligarchy and plutocracy wet dream.
Expectations will never help make wise decisions.


Can you be any more vague?
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby surreptitious57 » Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:24 am

HaHaHa wrote:
I view that a lot of people need to die in order to make this world a better place

You want to make the world the best that it can then eliminate the entire human race

Once that is achieved there will be no more suffering and everyone will be at peace

No half measures like only getting rid of some as it has to be either all or nothing

But if the logic of this is too disturbing for some then we can carry on as we are

It matters not to me but carrying on is the more practical of the two options
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:41 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
HaHaHa wrote:
I view that a lot of people need to die in order to make this world a better place

You want to make the world the best that it can then eliminate the entire human race

Once that is achieved there will be no more suffering and everyone will be at peace

No half measures like only getting rid of some as it has to be either all or nothing

But if the logic of this is too disturbing for some then we can carry on as we are

It matters not to me but carrying on is the more practical of the two options


The self preservation in me says no. No, I want humanity to survive and flourish, I really do.

With that being said, your human extinction event is very probable given the current environment and that cannot be denied.

Still, it's inevitable that large segments of the global population will be culled down. At any rate I would like to see the destruction of world governments everywhere and the destruction of all individuals that are responsible in making this bullshit world as it exists today possible. For me all these individuals are better off dead.
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby Eric_The_Pipe » Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:37 pm

HaHaHa wrote:
Eric_The_Pipe wrote:
HaHaHa wrote:Constitutional Republic is what devolved into our current state of existence right now.

Oligarchy and plutocracy wet dream.
Expectations will never help make wise decisions.


Can you be any more vague?

Would you like me to?
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby CelineK » Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:12 pm

ever wonder why people/voters always want more regulations ???

the corbett report (dont agree with the solution because it is precisely money that led us on the brink), but again, no gov can fix this huge mess, explained in 1H... The Regulation Trap. Democratic fairy tales no more.

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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:11 am

Eric_The_Pipe wrote:Would you like me to?


More vague than you have already been? No thank you.
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby Mentat Monkey » Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:08 am

Reforming democracy might be better seen from a birdseye view of what it *should* look like, or at least it would be more fruitful than grumbling reactions about the behaviours of particular assholes in the world.

Firstly, to quote some old fart general "You fight with the army you have, not the army you want." There are plenty of assholes around and many seek out positions of power no matter what system you put in place. Complaining that someone in power is an asshole is like complaining that the sky is blue. So build a system that can 'safely' be run by corrupt assholes. Capitalism is actually brilliant for controlling assholes, it limits power to how much money you have rather than the previous "do everything I say or you die" systems. And rather than hoarding limited resources assholes actually want you to take their physical resources in exchange for numbers in a computer somewhere. Capitalism convinces assholes to actually help society in exchange for what is essentially point scoring.

So reforming "democracy".. so what we'd really be arguing about is how people live their lives. What should individuals be able to decide for themselves, what things should be chosen by popularity (aka. you getting to decide how other people live) or should official decision makers be chosen by popularity instead.
The question then comes down to which areas of life are each of these a better idea. You don't want a committee choosing what you have for breakfast or what you wear, and it can also be argued that criminals shouldn't be dealt with by the victims of the crime but by a theoretically objective third party.

While it could be argued that democracy is interfering with people's lives, people are always going to try to control other people, and when there's no power structure there's a power vacuum just waiting for some other controlling bastards to come and fill.

So perhaps the question is how do you not just allow but force individuals to fill up some of that power vacuum themselves, even if they don't want to, for the sake of making sure there's no power vacuum to be had. Arming the population is one way. The creation of a publicly funded urban military is another. Countries with no police often have gangs or militias in control instead, an unprotected populace is easy pickings for assholes.

Part of democracy's beauty is it's anonymity, it's ability to avoid the social pressures that come with being the first to speak out or with backing an unpopular opinion. To mould society to fit what people actually want rather than what they may feel pressured to say if their answer would effect their reputation.

The internet could be the greatest step forward in democracy in history, so I partly think reforming democracy means how do we create a online system that uniquely identifies individuals in a way that guarantees there is only one vote per person, yet also keeps them socially anonymous.
I think we have the technology now to allow people to fill out a servey about what their individual opinions are in order of importance. With a sufficient system there would no longer be a question of "what do people need" but how best to deal with what they need. Then again this system is prone to people often not having a clue about what they actually need, with advertising's ability to sway opinion more than anyone cares to admit.
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:19 am

Capitalism aiding democracy will help make better societies? :lol:

Ah yes, the belief in extreme privatization and self interested corporate power centralization will somehow magically overnight concern itself with the general public good. :lol:

Thanks, I had a good chuckle reading all of that.
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby Eric_The_Pipe » Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:35 pm

HaHaHa wrote:Capitalism aiding democracy will help make better societies? :lol:

Ah yes, the belief in extreme privatization and self interested corporate power centralization will somehow magically overnight concern itself with the general public good. :lol:

Thanks, I had a good chuckle reading all of that.
So your alternative is that self interested centralized power will suddenly over night concern itself with the general public good, simply because its government instead of corporate?

The corporations want nothing more than my money, which I can individually choose to give them... With the government, I've got to convince my neighbor not to vote to take my money. Government is a zero sum game, corporations at least want to trade. (Unless we create a government controlled capitalism system, in which the corporation makes deals with the government to take my money. Which is the crony capitalistic system we currently often play in, due to fools thinking that if we just give a little more power to government the corporations will fall in line, magically.)
“Give a man a fish and he will ask for tartar sauce and French fries! Moreover, some politician who wants his vote will declare all these things to be among his ‘basic rights’” – An old saying rewritten by a follower of Thomas Sowell

"It's true that the bastards would win. But we shouldn't shut down a system just because the bastards win. A good system should be like a hamster wheel for bastards hooked up an electric generator. A well designed system is not one that prevents bastards from winning, but one that generates a lot of positive externalities from bastards trying to beat each other. And that's exactly what markets do. Markets entice bastards, they reward bastards, and the bastards love them, but as they operate they generate a lot of good that inadvertently benefits everyone else." - Carleas

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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:56 am

Eric_The_Pipe wrote:
HaHaHa wrote:Capitalism aiding democracy will help make better societies? :lol:

Ah yes, the belief in extreme privatization and self interested corporate power centralization will somehow magically overnight concern itself with the general public good. :lol:

Thanks, I had a good chuckle reading all of that.
So your alternative is that self interested centralized power will suddenly over night concern itself with the general public good, simply because its government instead of corporate?

The corporations want nothing more than my money, which I can individually choose to give them... With the government, I've got to convince my neighbor not to vote to take my money. Government is a zero sum game, corporations at least want to trade. (Unless we create a government controlled capitalism system, in which the corporation makes deals with the government to take my money. Which is the crony capitalistic system we currently often play in, due to fools thinking that if we just give a little more power to government the corporations will fall in line, magically.)


No, my position is that all governments are corrupt including democracy in not being worth a damn.

I speak from an anarchist point of view.

Also, corporations control all facets of government. Politicians are nothing but money whores for corporate lobbyists.
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby Eric_The_Pipe » Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:08 am

HaHaHa wrote:
Eric_The_Pipe wrote:
HaHaHa wrote:Capitalism aiding democracy will help make better societies? :lol:

Ah yes, the belief in extreme privatization and self interested corporate power centralization will somehow magically overnight concern itself with the general public good. :lol:

Thanks, I had a good chuckle reading all of that.
So your alternative is that self interested centralized power will suddenly over night concern itself with the general public good, simply because its government instead of corporate?

The corporations want nothing more than my money, which I can individually choose to give them... With the government, I've got to convince my neighbor not to vote to take my money. Government is a zero sum game, corporations at least want to trade. (Unless we create a government controlled capitalism system, in which the corporation makes deals with the government to take my money. Which is the crony capitalistic system we currently often play in, due to fools thinking that if we just give a little more power to government the corporations will fall in line, magically.)


No, my position is that all governments are corrupt including democracy in not being worth a damn.

I speak from an anarchist point of view.
Which would just result in choosing in different groups and, at best, democracy of one sort or another. That is how civilization started, actual anarchy, we form groups because it is the most efficient way to live. Governments are formed so that as the group members deal with each other, they can without killing piggy. All governments are run by individuals with personal goals and desires, this can lead to corruption. As has hopefully been noted, the U.S. is not a Democracy for that very reason, we are a constitutional representative republic, with multiple branches that are supposed to balance each other in power... Ideally this limits the damage of the natural corruption of individualistic goals.

(Side note: please tell me you are not white and skinny. The one group of people that would be eaten alive first in a true anarchy are too often the fools that claim to want it. Suggest you are a well trained, big or something that would confirm you wouldn't die five seconds after anarchy started. I've just known too many stupid skinny white teenagers that think anarchy is "cool"... Bloody Idiots.)
“Give a man a fish and he will ask for tartar sauce and French fries! Moreover, some politician who wants his vote will declare all these things to be among his ‘basic rights’” – An old saying rewritten by a follower of Thomas Sowell

"It's true that the bastards would win. But we shouldn't shut down a system just because the bastards win. A good system should be like a hamster wheel for bastards hooked up an electric generator. A well designed system is not one that prevents bastards from winning, but one that generates a lot of positive externalities from bastards trying to beat each other. And that's exactly what markets do. Markets entice bastards, they reward bastards, and the bastards love them, but as they operate they generate a lot of good that inadvertently benefits everyone else." - Carleas

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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby zinnat » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:00 pm

Eric_The_Pipe wrote:
(Side note: please tell me you are not white and skinny. The one group of people that would be eaten alive first in a true anarchy are too often the fools that claim to want it. Suggest you are a well trained, big or something that would confirm you wouldn't die five seconds after anarchy started. I've just known too many stupid skinny white teenagers that think anarchy is "cool"... Bloody Idiots.)


Well said.

In most of the cases, immature people do not realize what exactly would be the implications of their fantasies. They just want the change because of being unsatisfied from the present system, thus ready to support all new ideologies, even if those are worse.

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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby Eric_The_Pipe » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:40 am

zinnat wrote:
Eric_The_Pipe wrote:
(Side note: please tell me you are not white and skinny. The one group of people that would be eaten alive first in a true anarchy are too often the fools that claim to want it. Suggest you are a well trained, big or something that would confirm you wouldn't die five seconds after anarchy started. I've just known too many stupid skinny white teenagers that think anarchy is "cool"... Bloody Idiots.)


Well said.

In most of the cases, immature people do not realize what exactly would be the implications of their fantasies. They just want the change because of being unsatisfied from the present system, thus ready to support all new ideologies, even if those are worse.

With love,
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There are far too many people that hate something without understanding what options are available, and that often, those options are worse than the current system. Asking "as opposed to what?" is an important question.
“Give a man a fish and he will ask for tartar sauce and French fries! Moreover, some politician who wants his vote will declare all these things to be among his ‘basic rights’” – An old saying rewritten by a follower of Thomas Sowell

"It's true that the bastards would win. But we shouldn't shut down a system just because the bastards win. A good system should be like a hamster wheel for bastards hooked up an electric generator. A well designed system is not one that prevents bastards from winning, but one that generates a lot of positive externalities from bastards trying to beat each other. And that's exactly what markets do. Markets entice bastards, they reward bastards, and the bastards love them, but as they operate they generate a lot of good that inadvertently benefits everyone else." - Carleas

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The man, Thomas Sowell: Wealth, Poverty and Politics

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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:37 am

*sighs* People and their stereotypes.


I am white and skinny but I'm also a guy that knows how to use a knife severing through skin, flesh, muscle, and bone.

I'm the type of guy I could tell you which place is the fastest through the cerebral cord to cut through in order to get instant paralysis on the thing in question being dissected.

I'm the type of guy that likes rifles and shooting from long distances where there are certain nightscopes that shoot just as good at night as they would during the day.

I'm the type of guy I like reading and studying on poisons. You want to know what an interesting subject is? Neurotoxins.

Still think the skinny white guy doesn't amount to much? :lol:

I'll get to your other points at a later time.
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby Eric_The_Pipe » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:32 pm

HaHaHa wrote:*sighs* People and their stereotypes.
Sure, except that this is from my personal observations done over a long period of time. The people most often in desire of "anarchy" are the ones least able to survive in such a setting, more, they are unsophisticated in their desire... The one exclusion was a 6' black guy that was ex-military that was (at the time) working on his medical degree... He actually seemed together enough understand... We had a lot of good talks, good guy all around.

HaHaHa wrote:I am white and skinny but I'm also a guy that knows how to use a knife severing through skin, flesh, muscle, and bone.

I'm the type of guy I could tell you which place is the fastest through the cerebral cord to cut through in order to get instant paralysis on the thing in question being dissected.

I'm the type of guy that likes rifles and shooting from long distances where there are certain nightscopes that shoot just as good at night as they would during the day.

I'm the type of guy I like reading and studying on poisons. You want to know what an interesting subject is? Neurotoxins.

Still think the skinny white guy doesn't amount to much? :lol:
Well, at least that's something... You say you spend time on more than just half-baked ideas.
“Give a man a fish and he will ask for tartar sauce and French fries! Moreover, some politician who wants his vote will declare all these things to be among his ‘basic rights’” – An old saying rewritten by a follower of Thomas Sowell

"It's true that the bastards would win. But we shouldn't shut down a system just because the bastards win. A good system should be like a hamster wheel for bastards hooked up an electric generator. A well designed system is not one that prevents bastards from winning, but one that generates a lot of positive externalities from bastards trying to beat each other. And that's exactly what markets do. Markets entice bastards, they reward bastards, and the bastards love them, but as they operate they generate a lot of good that inadvertently benefits everyone else." - Carleas

The Newest EconPop: Economics of Demolition Man

The man, Thomas Sowell: Wealth, Poverty and Politics

Sowell's Writing
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby Mimisbrunnr » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:00 pm

HaHaHa wrote:*sighs* People and their stereotypes.


I am white and skinny but I'm also a guy that knows how to use a knife severing through skin, flesh, muscle, and bone.

I'm the type of guy I could tell you which place is the fastest through the cerebral cord to cut through in order to get instant paralysis on the thing in question being dissected.

I'm the type of guy that likes rifles and shooting from long distances where there are certain nightscopes that shoot just as good at night as they would during the day.

I'm the type of guy I like reading and studying on poisons. You want to know what an interesting subject is? Neurotoxins.

Still think the skinny white guy doesn't amount to much? :lol:

I'll get to your other points at a later time.


Qualifying you are white and skinny with "but I'm also a guy that knows how to use a knife severing through skin, flesh, muscle, and bone" and the rest in this context, in my mind serves to actually reinforce the stereotype Eric_The_Pipe was referring to. I find that usually this type of person is very easily prompted to respond with the same type of awkwardly grandiose language and incorrect nomenclature as the above quote.

Skin, flesh, muscle and bone? Why stop there, why not include tendons and ligaments? Cerebral cord? Instant paralysis? It doesn't really sound like you are a physiology buff, though I suppose you don't have to be to sever a spinal cord, though the 'best' location all depends on what you are trying to paralyze exactly. Shooting from long distances where there are certain nightscopes that shoot just as good at night as they would during the day? Wha?? I can show you my shooting medals and awards, can you show me yours? I suppose you don't have to be an avid shooter or competitive shooter, but it certainly helps.

It sounds like you want to sound like you know what you are talking about, but I'm really not seeing it in your language.
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby gib » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:14 am

Hi everyone, great conversation! I've been traveling for the past couple of days, haven't had time to reply. Might or *might not* reply soon.
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby gib » Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:21 pm

Is there a name for the type of political system in which elections take place? I want to use the term "democracy" but apparently that's a dirty word around here. Ok, so you're not a democracy, but can I call you a democratic republic? Ok fine, a constitutional representative democratic republic... just something to get the idea across that you sometimes take a democratic approach to solving certain problems. For example, who should be President. You (supposedly) take a democratic approach in the sense that you put it to a vote. Or passing new laws. You put it to a vote (not a popular one, at least not all the time, from what I understand). This doesn't make the system a democracy (in the sense that everything is decided on the whims of the majority, or largest minority), but it is the preferred approach in the limited context of specific decisions, preferred because it seems the best of all alternatives, alternatives like someone taking the Presidency by force and terror. I mean, if you can't make everyone happy, you might as well go with the next best thing, try to please a majority.

And of course, I'm not saying your system actually runs according to this prescription, but I want a term that denotes the idea of such a system so that I don't have to always go with "a republic in which specific important decisions are determined by vote, sometimes popular, sometimes not." <-- That's just too wordy.
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby Eric_The_Pipe » Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:59 pm

gib wrote:Is there a name for the type of political system in which elections take place?
Democracy

gib wrote:I want to use the term "democracy" but apparently that's a dirty word around here.
Use it any way, dirty words are fucking fine with me.

gib wrote:Ok, so you're not a democracy, but can I call you a democratic republic? Ok fine, a constitutional representative democratic republic...
Democracy is the voting system of this particular Constitutional Representative Republic... It's important not just because pure democracy is mob rule, but because it is clear in the communication of what we are talking about. I've spent far to many hours listening to (and so many fighting with) people bitching about, "this doesn't represent the democratic process" and other such nonsence. A show I watch is called Adam Ruins Everything, were he spent an entire episode bitching about the Presidential Voting process not living up to democratic ideal... Even pointed out that our founders set it up this way on purpose. Failing the whole time to explain why they didn't do this. Right now Democracy is a idealized idea (weird to type it that way) with people who have never really lived with it putting it up on a pedestal, and as is common with the US education system, they don't understand the consequences of the idea being put in place... So, ass holes, like me, turn into bigger ass holes, as we point out, that is not the type of place we live in, nor is it actually one we want to live in...

gib wrote:Just something to get the idea across that you sometimes take a democratic approach to solving certain problems.
We call it the U.S.

gib wrote:For example, who should be President. You (supposedly) take a democratic approach in the sense that you put it to a vote.
Done via Delegates, which are representations of our will, which yes we sorta democratically vote for (Colorado GOP has a really complicated system for its delegates which I recently worked my way up through).

gib wrote:Or passing new laws.
Which is done via the Representative part at the federal level, and even in most states.

gib wrote:You put it to a vote (not a popular one, at least not all the time, from what I understand). This doesn't make the system a democracy (in the sense that everything is decided on the whims of the majority, or largest minority), but it is the preferred approach in the limited context of specific decisions, preferred because it seems the best of all alternatives, alternatives like someone taking the Presidency by force and terror. I mean, if you can't make everyone happy, you might as well go with the next best thing, try to please a majority.
Pleasing the largest group is just populism, but there have been moments where that swayed the day... On the actual point you are making:

We, the US, use democracy for parts of our system, but what we are is a Constitutional Representative Republic. We are not a democracy. We also use English words but we are not the English language. If you are referring the the whole US, and trying to "reform" us, I suggest you start from a different place than if you are attempting to "reform" democracy. Just as if you were to attempt to reform us, I would suggest starting with a different place than if you are attempting to reform English... If you want a name that includes all the screwed up aspects that are the US, I suggest The United States of America, (USA or just US for short).

gib wrote:And of course, I'm not saying your system actually runs according to this prescription, but I want a term that denotes the idea of such a system so that I don't have to always go with "a republic in which specific important decisions are determined by vote, sometimes popular, sometimes not." <-- That's just too wordy.
:lol: If you did use the whole thing you'd have me laughing every time... Though I could see how my entertainment wouldn't be as important. :lol:

Wow, my reply was rather cheeky... I'll have to think about that...
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby gib » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:54 am

Eric_The_Pipe wrote:Use it any way, dirty words are fucking fine with me.


You dirty, dirty boy. :lol:

Eric_The_Pipe wrote:Democracy is the voting system of this particular Constitutional Representative Republic... It's important not just because pure democracy is mob rule, but because it is clear in the communication of what we are talking about. I've spent far to many hours listening to (and so many fighting with) people bitching about, "this doesn't represent the democratic process" and other such nonsence. Hmmm... so this mistaken idea is being used as a political ploy? A show I watch is called Adam Ruins Everything, were he spent an entire episode bitching about the Presidential Voting process not living up to democratic ideal... Was this guy Christian? I mean, with the reference to Adam and all? Even pointed out that our founders set it up this way on purpose. Failing the whole time to explain why they didn't do this. What are your suspicions about this guy--is he deliberately and consciously lying or does he believe his own bullshit? Right now Democracy is a idealized idea (weird to type it that way) what, with typing 'a' instead of 'an'?... Sorry, just being an ass. with people who have never really lived with it putting it up on a pedestal, and as is common with the US education system, they don't understand the consequences of the idea being put in place... <-- That right there is the problem. So, ass holes, like me, turn into bigger ass holes, as we point out, that is not the type of place we live in, nor is it actually one we want to live in...


Yeah, I'll agree that you're an asshole. :lol:

Eric_The_Pipe wrote:We call it the U.S.


Yeah, but I don't think you want me going around calling this or that political system "U.S.-ism".

Eric_The_Pipe wrote:Done via Delegates, which are representations of our will, which yes we sorta democratically vote for (Colorado GOP has a really complicated system for its delegates which I recently worked my way up through).


Oh? Do tell (or would that be dangerous? :lol:).

Eric_The_Pipe wrote:Which is done via the Representative part at the federal level, and even in most states.


Interesting. What do you mean by "most states"?

Eric_The_Pipe wrote:Pleasing the largest group is just populism, but there have been moments where that swayed the day...


Yes, but what else can a government aim for than pleasing the largest group of people?

Eric_The_Pipe wrote:We, the US, use democracy for parts of our system, but what we are is a Constitutional Representative Republic. Ok, so can we say this? America is a Constitutional Representative Republic with democracy as one of its political tools? <-- Not sure if that's any less wordy but I think it's a hell of a lot more elegant. We also use English words but we are not the English language. Is this where you call me arrogant? :lol: If you are referring the the whole US, and trying to "reform" us, I suggest you start from a different place than if you are attempting to "reform" democracy. Just as if you were to attempt to reform us, I would suggest starting with a different place than if you are attempting to reform English... If you want a name that includes all the screwed up aspects that are the US, I suggest The United States of America, (USA or just US for short).


Well, no, I don't think I'm referring to the whole US, I think I'm referring to, I guess, Western politics in general. I started this thread noticing some of the alarming conspiracies taking place in American politics today. I have James to thank for this. But my focus has consistently been, more or less, on American politics in particular. Why? Because you guys rule the world.

I just got back from a two week vacation in the Bahamas. My parents own a condo by the beach. All day--when we weren't lounging at the beach, or shopping in town, or hitting the night clubs--we were in the condo with the TV channeled to CNN. I guess this is my dad's pass time: watching CNN. He's retired, so he has nothing better to do. All that I remembered being aired (and I'm sure we changed the channel now and then but...) was about Trump's rise and downfall (even Mexico is making fun of him as I understand it now). So you see that the rest of the world--non-Americans--are being fed a huge dose of American media and current events. In Canada, that's certainly true, and apparently it's true in the Bahamas as well.

What you have to realize is that this is true of many other Western countries as well--not just Canadians and Bahamians (not to be confused with Bohemians).

The consequence is this: there is a public--I might even say *global*--perception that America rules the world and dictate the mode of conduct for people to follow--essential, you've gone global! Congrats! : :happy-cheerleaderkid:

So, no, I'm not talking about America in particular--but it just so happens to be a fact that America runs the show today, and so the main focus of the task of studying Western politics (democracies, republics, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment) should definitely start with American politics today.

Eric_The_Pipe wrote:Wow, my reply was rather cheeky... I'll have to think about that...


What does cheeky mean? :-k
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby Eric_The_Pipe » Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:18 am

gib wrote:
Eric_The_Pipe wrote:Use it any way, dirty words are fucking fine with me.
You dirty, dirty boy. :lol:
:lol:

gib wrote:
Eric_The_Pipe wrote:Democracy is the voting system of this particular Constitutional Representative Republic... It's important not just because pure democracy is mob rule, but because it is clear in the communication of what we are talking about. I've spent far to many hours listening to (and so many fighting with) people bitching about, "this doesn't represent the democratic process" and other such nonsence.
Hmmm... so this mistaken idea is being used as a political ploy?
Jah, which is probably why it gets so much precision from me.

gib wrote:
Eric_The_Pipe wrote:A show I watch is called Adam Ruins Everything, were he spent an entire episode bitching about the Presidential Voting process not living up to democratic ideal...
Was this guy Christian? I mean, with the reference to Adam and all?
Nope, just guy. Probably horribly atheist (the kind that isn't just atheist, but needs to tell non-atheists why they are wrong...) But, it's fun and marginally informative. The one on getting paid had a great idea that needs to be put into practice...

gib wrote:
Eric_The_Pipe wrote:Even pointed out that our founders set it up this way on purpose. Failing the whole time to explain why they didn't do this.
What are your suspicions about this guy--is he deliberately and consciously lying or does he believe his own bullshit?
I think he believes in democracy, honestly believes, its all the rage in the school system... Actually overheard someone saying what we need is more democracy in the middle east. I just about started throwing things...

gib wrote:
Eric_The_Pipe wrote:Right now Democracy is a idealized idea (weird to type it that way)
what, with typing 'a' instead of 'an'?... Sorry, just being an ass.
Yes. :evilfun:

I was referring to idealized idea...

gib wrote:
Eric_The_Pipe wrote: with people who have never really lived with it putting it up on a pedestal, and as is common with the US education system, they don't understand the consequences of the idea being put in place...
<-- That right there is the problem.
It is...

gib wrote:
Eric_The_Pipe wrote:So, ass holes, like me, turn into bigger ass holes, as we point out, that is not the type of place we live in, nor is it actually one we want to live in...
Yeah, I'll agree that you're an asshole. :lol:
I actually gained a nickname off of a line like this... I have a friend that calls me, "Fuck you, I like Whiskey."

gib wrote:
Eric_The_Pipe wrote:We call it the U.S.
Yeah, but I don't think you want me going around calling this or that political system "U.S.-ism".
It would amuse me if you did.

gib wrote:
Eric_The_Pipe wrote:Done via Delegates, which are representations of our will, which yes we sorta democratically vote for (Colorado GOP has a really complicated system for its delegates which I recently worked my way up through).
Oh? Do tell (or would that be dangerous? :lol:).
So, we vote in small precincts, think a 6 block radius, and we vote for a delegate to go to larger sections and vote for other delegates, who then go and vote for the final delegates... Who are actually the people that vote for president...

We also do other things like chose who is going to run for this office of that neighborhood, and so on... It was an amazing process, though semi-disheartening, to see how unprepared the whole damn thing was. It was a bigger crowd than had shown up, ever, apparently and despite knowing in advance how many people where supposed to show it, the amount of people was a problem for to many situations...

gib wrote:
Eric_The_Pipe wrote:Which is done via the Representative part at the federal level, and even in most states.
Interesting. What do you mean by "most states"?
Each state gets to choose how the laws for that state are created, most, not all (such as Colorado) chose to follow in the foot steps of the US Congress and it's all Representative. Colorado regularly votes on bills as a state.

gib wrote:
Eric_The_Pipe wrote:Pleasing the largest group is just populism, but there have been moments where that swayed the day...
Yes, but what else can a government aim for than pleasing the largest group of people?
It depends. I did a report recently, did the work to figure out that the Speaker for the House, easily the second most powerful person in the country, only needs 50%+1 of the House (that of the house, not population at large) to get elected. The only other requirement is that they qualify to be president, because they are third in line. That is a surprising amount of power for someone that only needs 218 people. While, so far, every single time they've been a member of the house (something that needs more votes, but a pathetically small percentage of the population to get elected), that is not required.

gib wrote:
Eric_The_Pipe wrote:We, the US, use democracy for parts of our system, but what we are is a Constitutional Representative Republic.
Ok, so can we say this? America is a Constitutional Representative Republic with democracy as one of its political tools? <-- Not sure if that's any less wordy but I think it's a hell of a lot more elegant.
Sure. Or I can work on only correcting the statement when its relevant and you can call it whatever you want... :D

gib wrote:
Eric_The_Pipe wrote:We also use English words but we are not the English language.
Is this where you call me arrogant? :lol:
Uh, yes! (Is this that time?)

gib wrote:
Eric_The_Pipe wrote:If you are referring the the whole US, and trying to "reform" us, I suggest you start from a different place than if you are attempting to "reform" democracy. Just as if you were to attempt to reform us, I would suggest starting with a different place than if you are attempting to reform English... If you want a name that includes all the screwed up aspects that are the US, I suggest The United States of America, (USA or just US for short).
Well, no, I don't think I'm referring to the whole US, I think I'm referring to, I guess, Western politics in general. I started this thread noticing some of the alarming conspiracies taking place in American politics today. I have James to thank for this. But my focus has consistently been, more or less, on American politics in particular. Why? Because you guys rule the world.

I just got back from a two week vacation in the Bahamas. My parents own a condo by the beach. All day--when we weren't lounging at the beach, or shopping in town, or hitting the night clubs--we were in the condo with the TV channeled to CNN. I guess this is my dad's pass time: watching CNN. He's retired, so he has nothing better to do. All that I remembered being aired (and I'm sure we changed the channel now and then but...) was about Trump's rise and downfall (even Mexico is making fun of him as I understand it now). So you see that the rest of the world--non-Americans--are being fed a huge dose of American media and current events. In Canada, that's certainly true, and apparently it's true in the Bahamas as well.

What you have to realize is that this is true of many other Western countries as well--not just Canadians and Bahamians (not to be confused with Bohemians).

The consequence is this: there is a public--I might even say *global*--perception that America rules the world and dictate the mode of conduct for people to follow--essential, you've gone global! Congrats! : :happy-cheerleaderkid:

So, no, I'm not talking about America in particular--but it just so happens to be a fact that America runs the show today, and so the main focus of the task of studying Western politics (democracies, republics, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment) should definitely start with American politics today.
That sounds just awful. Not the watching CNN on vacation, I do things like that, relying on an other country for anything. Hell, I like you Canadians (even if its not a real country), and I'll shoot people if I have to start relying on them...

If it helps, only half the country agrees with this idea, the conservative half would tell you all your effing crazy. Take care of your own shit, trade with us, but leave us alone otherwise. The heart of Conservatism is the desire to be left alone. Its just unfortunate that so many don't understand that's all we want, hell, even the stupid, racist parts of the party, ultimately come from this very place.

gib wrote:
Eric_The_Pipe wrote:Wow, my reply was rather cheeky... I'll have to think about that...
What does cheeky mean? :-k
Cheeky
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"It's true that the bastards would win. But we shouldn't shut down a system just because the bastards win. A good system should be like a hamster wheel for bastards hooked up an electric generator. A well designed system is not one that prevents bastards from winning, but one that generates a lot of positive externalities from bastards trying to beat each other. And that's exactly what markets do. Markets entice bastards, they reward bastards, and the bastards love them, but as they operate they generate a lot of good that inadvertently benefits everyone else." - Carleas

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