Page 1 of 5

My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:19 pm
by Pezerocles
Integrated world capitalism does not aim at a systematic and generalized repression of the
workers, women, youth, minorities. . - The means of production On which it rests will indeed call
for a flexibility in relationships of production and in social relations, and a minimal capacity to
adapt to the new forms of Sensibility and to the new types of human relationships which are
"mutating" here and there (i.e. exploitation by advertising of the "discoveries" of the marginals,
relative tolerance with regard to the zones of laissez-faire. ...( Under these conditions, a semitolerated,
semi-encouraged, and co-opted protest could well be an intrinsic part of the system.)

Felix Guattari, 1990


Emphasis mine.

So, protesters, I accuse you of being an integral part of the system! What say ye?

*Hat tip: Aletheia

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:41 pm
by Flannel Jesus
Here's my impression of it, or rather most of the people participating:
Image

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:13 am
by omar
Flannel Jesus wrote:Here's my impression of it, or rather most of the people participating:
Image


loved that.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:40 pm
by uglypeoplefucking
yeah, we wouldn't want to reclaim government from the corporations or anything like that. silly protesters. they should all read Atlas Shrugged.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:44 pm
by Flannel Jesus
Idk about reading it, but they definitely shouldn't watch it. I saw part I a few days ago, and that movie SUCKS!

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:09 pm
by Pezerocles
uglypeoplefucking wrote:yeah, we wouldn't want to reclaim government from the corporations or anything like that. silly protesters. they should all read Atlas Shrugged.


They should all read some Guattari! :P

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:26 pm
by Gobbo
Problem. Reaction. Solution.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:35 pm
by Flannel Jesus
Bacon. Lettuce. Tomato.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:22 pm
by Pezerocles
Flannel Jesus wrote:Bacon. Lettuce. Tomato.


I don't know how to properly convey exactly how funny that is to me.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:46 pm
by uglypeoplefucking
Pezer wrote:
Integrated world capitalism does not aim at a systematic and generalized repression of the
workers, women, youth, minorities. . - The means of production On which it rests will indeed call
for a flexibility in relationships of production and in social relations, and a minimal capacity to
adapt to the new forms of Sensibility and to the new types of human relationships which are
"mutating" here and there (i.e. exploitation by advertising of the "discoveries" of the marginals,
relative tolerance with regard to the zones of laissez-faire. ...( Under these conditions, a semitolerated,
semi-encouraged, and co-opted protest could well be an intrinsic part of the system.)

Felix Guattari, 1990


Emphasis mine.

So, protesters, I accuse you of being an integral part of the system! What say ye?

*Hat tip: Aletheia


who do you think has co-opted the occupy protests? big business? the govt? wall st bankers themselves? or are you saying that from the start it was all a conspiracy of the powers that be?

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:34 pm
by Pezerocles
uglypeoplefucking wrote:who do you think has co-opted the occupy protests? big business? the govt? wall st bankers themselves? or are you saying that from the start it was all a conspiracy of the powers that be?


I'm saying that it is part of "the system". Not, having thought it through, that they ever really claimed to be against it. They just want it "reformed". And that belief in reform is the system putting reins on an impulse that could otherwise be harmful to it. And when I talk about the system as doing things, as if it were a person, I mean that those things (the idea of reform) were generated within it and, in practice, work to enforce it.

The con is that no kind of reform will lead to the kind of society the protesters probably envision. And the protesters themselves, unwittingly part of the system (or maybe not so unwittingly, maybe they are not trying to be "non-conformist"), are enough to vent the frustrations of the conned, even if no actual reform ever takes place. Some probaably will. Probably little enough to keep the feeling of being conned alive, but enough to give the feeling of some measure of victory.

I'm not saying that there are people in a smoke-filled room somewhere plotting all this. This kinda shit just kinda happens.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:46 pm
by uglypeoplefucking
i'm satisfied with your response, and with the conclusion that this kinda shit just kinda happens. though i don't necessarily see a con. it's all part of a political dialectic - you're right that nothing big will come of it, but protesting can spread a general awareness nonetheless

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:22 am
by Gobbo
uglypeoplefucking wrote:
Pezer wrote:
Integrated world capitalism does not aim at a systematic and generalized repression of the
workers, women, youth, minorities. . - The means of production On which it rests will indeed call
for a flexibility in relationships of production and in social relations, and a minimal capacity to
adapt to the new forms of Sensibility and to the new types of human relationships which are
"mutating" here and there (i.e. exploitation by advertising of the "discoveries" of the marginals,
relative tolerance with regard to the zones of laissez-faire. ...( Under these conditions, a semitolerated,
semi-encouraged, and co-opted protest could well be an intrinsic part of the system.)

Felix Guattari, 1990


Emphasis mine.

So, protesters, I accuse you of being an integral part of the system! What say ye?

*Hat tip: Aletheia


who do you think has co-opted the occupy protests? big business? the govt? wall st bankers themselves? or are you saying that from the start it was all a conspiracy of the powers that be?


This was planned from the start. In like 2004 I said this would happen around 2012. For the profane, there are surprises of this sort.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:58 am
by Pezerocles
Authority Figure wrote:This was planned from the start. In like 2004 I said this would happen around 2012. For the profane, there are surprises of this sort.


What exactly did you say?

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:06 am
by Pezerocles
uglypeoplefucking wrote:you're right that nothing big will come of it, but protesting can spread a general awareness nonetheless


Two things.

1. Just the fact that nothing big will come of it, and a lot of people are treating it like its some kind of paradigm-shifting revolution, I think makes it something of a con.

2. The awareness was already there. The only thing I see the protesting spreading is a misplaced catharsis. A humble raising of a protest (and believe me, I respect humble), that, being humble, will crush spirits all the more when it turns into not-much, or basically nothing. I think that is part of the point, to keep the honestly hopeful for change crushed, and those who are just looking for a "high" satisfied.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:12 am
by Pezerocles
Aw shit... I love to dissect this thing theoretically, but I feel like your hopes are honest, and I feel shitty for questioning them.

Maybe awereness does count for something... I'm a philosophical gambler and no gambler can ever predict to 100% certainty (or would want to).

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:36 pm
by uglypeoplefucking
no, no, dissect away - the protestors have my moral support, but that's about the extent of it - i think it's good to see people publically calling Wall St out, but "hope" may be too strong a word for what i feel.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:45 pm
by Kriswest
Ok my impression:
I agree with the general idea, of why they are protesting. but,, when i see people dressed in nice clothes, healthy to obese, waving signs that claim oppression I am disgusted. How can a people be oppressed when they have items like cell phones, Ipods, good clothes , more than enough food in their bellies and freedom to move? I don't see oppression. Just ask people from truly oppressed countries about oppression. yes the Gov't sold us out but, we are responsible for that. We allowed it to happen. Protesting is fine but, take it to the polls, create petitions, go to court, etc. Don't look like an idiot claiming oppression when you so obviously are not oppressed.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:56 pm
by Flannel Jesus
spoken like a true slave. "Massa's so good to me."

Not that I agree with the protesters, but I don't think the argument "we could have it worse" actually takes anything away from the argument, "we could have it better." Yes, there are people starving, yes, there are people being brutalized, yes, there are people in worse situations. Does that mean we should just give up on improving our own situation? No, it doesn't mean that. Just because other people are being oppressed more does not mean we should be complacent about our own oppression.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:12 pm
by Pezerocles
Kriswest wrote:Ok my impression:
I agree with the general idea, of why they are protesting. but,, when i see people dressed in nice clothes, healthy to obese, waving signs that claim oppression I am disgusted. How can a people be oppressed when they have items like cell phones, Ipods, good clothes , more than enough food in their bellies and freedom to move? I don't see oppression. Just ask people from truly oppressed countries about oppression. yes the Gov't sold us out but, we are responsible for that. We allowed it to happen. Protesting is fine but, take it to the polls, create petitions, go to court, etc. Don't look like an idiot claiming oppression when you so obviously are not oppressed.


I grew up in Venezuela (on the have, rather than have-not side, but still...), so this rings true to me.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:35 pm
by aletheia
Nice topic Pezer, I am glad to see you putting Guattari to good use.

Systems as large and complex as national ideologico-politico-economic sphere/s are prone to instability from "butterfly effects" of unpredictable variables. These systems, in order to exist, must contain certain embedded mechanisms for dealing with uncertainty, and part of this is subverting revolutionary potential. It is always a back and forth. Eventually something will rupture vitally in the clockworks of the system's necessary functionings, and it will suffer significant collapse as societal organs are re-appropriated under new images or simply vanish and are sublimated entirely. This is inevitable, no social construct is immune to growing pressures from both internal and external threats to its systemic coherency and equilibrium.

Protests, unfortunately, often only serve, as you say, to redirect and diffuse otherwise perhaps more radically potent revolutionary potential. I say "unfortunately" from the perspective of those from where this potential springs, of course. Now, there are different methods with which this marginalizing of radical potential takes place, and perhaps we might begin investigating them here. However it also bears noting that even where systems successfully co-opt and diffuse radical energies the total effects of these otherwise now impotent energies are still essentially unpredictable in nature. No marginalization is ever total, and small effects otherwise marginalized nonetheless still serve several potentially subversive and destabilizing ends - they may lead to subtle ideological shifts in the cultural zeitgeist, they may reveal otherwise hidden cracks in the system, they may force the powers that be to overextend their legitimacy of force, they may lead to snowball effects or to the emergence of new leaders of political movements which may gain traction somewhere down the road.

So I think it is fair to say that no protest movement is ever entirely useless or impotent, no matter the degree to which it serves the cathartic ends of the system itself. In fact maintaining an active and open fidelity to radical potentiality itself is very crucial regardless of the setbacks or losses we suffer - the simple fact of conceding this fidelity in the face of hopelessness, apathy or resignation is the only true murderer of revolutionary possibility. See my signature here for a nice example statement of this. We simply cannot ever give up hope - even if we lose hope in everything else, we must never lose our hope in hope itself, our faith in faith, in the inherent and often unknowable and unpredictable powers which lurk ready to burst forth from the smallest beginnings and proceed to go on and change the world, giving birth to a new future/s. Every great world-changing movement began small.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:50 pm
by Duality
1. Guattari died like 20 years ago so Im pretty sure he didn’t say this is his impression of the occupy movement + it sounds like you have no idea what the premise of his philosophy actually was.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:07 pm
by aletheia
Duality wrote:1. Guattari died like 20 years ago so Im pretty sure he didn’t say this is his impression of the occupy movement + it sounds like you have no idea what the premise of his philosophy actually was.


Way to contribute absolutely nothing.

You could at least try and give yourself the appearance of substance... or would that expose too much, open you up to too much possible criticism?

Why are you here? If you've got something to say, by all means, say it. What's holding you back?

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:24 pm
by Pezerocles
aletheia wrote:Protests, unfortunately, often only serve, as you say, to redirect and diffuse otherwise perhaps more radically potent revolutionary potential. I say "unfortunately" from the perspective of those from where this potential springs, of course. Now, there are different methods with which this marginalizing of radical potential takes place, and perhaps we might begin investigating them here. However it also bears noting that even where systems successfully co-opt and diffuse radical energies the total effects of these otherwise now impotent energies are still essentially unpredictable in nature. No marginalization is ever total, and small effects otherwise marginalized nonetheless still serve several potentially subversive and destabilizing ends - they may lead to subtle ideological shifts in the cultural zeitgeist, they may reveal otherwise hidden cracks in the system, they may force the powers that be to overextend their legitimacy of force, they may lead to snowball effects or to the emergence of new leaders of political movements which may gain traction somewhere down the road.

So I think it is fair to say that no protest movement is ever entirely useless or impotent, no matter the degree to which it serves the cathartic ends of the system itself. In fact maintaining an active and open fidelity to radical potentiality itself is very crucial regardless of the setbacks or losses we suffer - the simple fact of conceding this fidelity in the face of hopelessness, apathy or resignation is the only true murderer of revolutionary possibility. See my signature here for a nice example statement of this. We simply cannot ever give up hope - even if we lose hope in everything else, we must never lose our hope in hope itself, our faith in faith, in the inherent and often unknowable and unpredictable powers which lurk ready to burst forth from the smallest beginnings and proceed to go on and change the world, giving birth to a new future/s. Every great world-changing movement began small.


Like I said, some philosophy is gambling, and I was gambling against any geist change or other cracks you mention. I'm probably right in the short-medium run, but I think it would be hard to argue against your point that, eventually, the butterfly effect will result in deep, unpredictable change.

Hey, I'm an anarchist! obviously I have SOME hope of this happening within my lifetime. And I hope I will be wise enough if the time comes to do my part in pushing the change towards complete freedom.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:26 pm
by Pezerocles
uglypeoplefucking wrote:no, no, dissect away - the protestors have my moral support, but that's about the extent of it - i think it's good to see people publically calling Wall St out, but "hope" may be too strong a word for what i feel.


*Noted. I will hack away.