Should Parents Have a Say?

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Should Parents Have a Say?

Yes - Parents should have a say about what is taught to their children in public schools?
9
82%
No - Parents should NOT have a say about what is taught to their children in public schools?
1
9%
Restricted - please explain.
1
9%
 
Total votes : 11

Re: Should Parents Have a Say?

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:51 am

Mad Man P wrote:that's why education is mandatory, because failing to provide it severely damages that child's future not to mention poses as a liability to how functional a democracy can be when populated by the uneducated.

So the question becomes what sort of education is required to secure them opportunities, awareness and choices in life, once they are adults and capable of participating in society... and who decides that?

I think I have to disagree with that premise. Isn't basic education required for sake of the society - government rulers require it because government rulers want it as part of the economic system - different systems require different performances from their constituents.

In a capitalist system - competitiveness is essential to the system - regardless of any benefit to the individuals involved. Socialism and slavery existed for the same reason - nothing at all to do with what was good for anyone other than those ruling the society.

In a socialist system - a type of dumbed down disinformation or lack of education and competitiveness within the peasantry is far more useful to the ruling class. They do not need innovative competitors - and strongly fear them. To the socialists (especially full communists) even basic education of the masses can be dangerous - so it is tolerated or promoted only when there is a greater threat at hand - such as another more competitive society near by (Orient meets Occident).

As long as people rule society - in what manner or whether to teach children is going to be entirely up to the wishes of the rulers - peasant individuals actually have no rights at all. In a constitutional society - that issue is potentially very different - a constitution can provide individual rights that no ruler would allow. And that is why they cannot allow the US to maintain it's constitution.

I think ethically only parents (and not always them) or a constitution can be trusted to oversee any protection of rights to peasant children concerning education, training, health or any concerns of life and happiness.

Educators are trained on how to teach as a skill (ideally anyway) but when it comes to what to teach - those same educators are not at all qualified to know what would be best for children even if they cared - but of course - they are trained to believe they know best. The problem is that parents are rarely trained in how to teach (or even how to parent) so the parents end up having to trust others - and very very often misled and disappointed by them (much the same situation with health issues - also being politically attacked).

Do the children live for sake of society or does society exist for sake of the children. China (Xi Jinping) has responded with the former - children are literally programmed to serve and nothing else.

The US communists/socialists/"democrats"/"progressives" agree with Xi Jinping. The constitutionalists and capitalists agree to the latter (governments exist to serve - not to be served).

Which really represents actual "progress"?
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Re: Should Parents Have a Say?

Postby Meno_ » Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:20 am

I think that parent or teacher guided programs of education should not be an either or proposition, but a general framework could be drawn up based on interactive tests and evaluations that reflect goals corresponding with aptitudes of all concerned. Specifics could evolve periodically in s continuous flow of ideas among those concerned, including the students.
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Re: Should Parents Have a Say?

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:03 am

Meno_ wrote:I think that parent or teacher guided programs of education should not be an either or proposition, but a general framework could be drawn up based on interactive tests and evaluations that reflect goals corresponding with aptitudes of all concerned. Specifics could evolve periodically in s continuous flow of ideas among those concerned, including the students.

But what about when the "goal" is strictly a political - even an anti-country - indoctrination?

Currently the US government is participating in the redistribution and reset of wealth across the world - and redistribution OUT OF the US to other more authoritarian countries - such as China, Russia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran... The citizens of the US of course would not favor that move so the US government must deceptively cause the economic destruction without the knowledge of citizens. And the O'Biden regime is very very actively doing just that.

Equally the pride associated with being a citizen of the US must also be subverted without the knowledge of the US citizenry - the US working class must be distracted, poisoned, and disheartened - destruction must occur (that is why they attacked Mr Trump so much). A very large part of that has been the socialist/communist propaganda agenda - and that requires propaganda in schools - not merely reading, writing, maths, and work skills - but actual passionate hatred for country and love for anti-country issues (capitalism vs socialism - we see it everywhere).

So who chooses the propaganda? In the US right now - it is China and the anti-American redistribute and reset globalists choosing it - parents disallowed because they are the targets to be destroyed.
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    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --
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Re: Should Parents Have a Say?

Postby Mad Man P » Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:07 am

obsrvr524 wrote:Do the children live for sake of society or does society exist for sake of the children.


This is a false dichotomy and a massively confused one at that.
There can be no child served by society without another member serving that society by providing for the child's needs.

A society that takes from you and offers no protection nor care in return, otoh, has gone astray...
It's inducted everyone to the service of a select few and by doing so evaporated the incentive to play along, maintained entirely by the threat of violence or ideological indoctrination.
Whether it's having everyone serve the party leaders or protecting the claims of the rich and powerful at the expense of everyone else... it hardly matters.
The care for its populace is lopsided and made evident by the state they are in.
Last edited by Mad Man P on Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should Parents Have a Say?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:10 am

See obsrvr? You let them do it to you.

Here you are discussing what it is the government should do with all its power over people's children.
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Re: Should Parents Have a Say?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:11 am

obsrvr524 wrote:
Meno_ wrote:I think that parent or teacher guided programs of education should not be an either or proposition, but a general framework could be drawn up based on interactive tests and evaluations that reflect goals corresponding with aptitudes of all concerned. Specifics could evolve periodically in s continuous flow of ideas among those concerned, including the students.

But what about when the "goal" is strictly a political - even an anti-country - indoctrination?

Currently the US government is participating in the redistribution and reset of wealth across the world - and redistribution OUT OF the US to other more authoritarian countries - such as China, Russia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran... The citizens of the US of course would not favor that move so the US government must deceptively cause the economic destruction without the knowledge of citizens. And the O'Biden regime is very very actively doing just that.

Equally the pride associated with being a citizen of the US must also be subverted without the knowledge of the US citizenry - the US working class must be distracted, poisoned, and disheartened - destruction must occur (that is why they attacked Mr Trump so much). A very large part of that has been the socialist/communist propaganda agenda - and that requires propaganda in schools - not merely reading, writing, maths, and work skills - but actual passionate hatred for country and love for anti-country issues (capitalism vs socialism - we see it everywhere).

So who chooses the propaganda? In the US right now - it is China and the anti-American redistribute and reset globalists choosing it - parents disallowed because they are the targets to be destroyed.


This is sharp though, and true of course. I don't mean to take away from that.

But this is why I focus on why people willingly submit. What you are saying is fairly obvious, out in the open. It is a mistake to think that your opponents are not fully aware of this.
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Re: Should Parents Have a Say?

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:18 am

Mad Man P wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:Do the children live for sake of society or does society exist for sake of the children.


This is a false dichotomy and a massively confused one at that.
There can be no child served by society without another member serving that society by providing for the child's needs.

A society that takes from you and offers no protection nor care in return, otoh, has gone astray...
It's inducted everyone to the service of a select few and by doing so evaporated the incentive to play along, maintained entirely by the threat of violence.
Whether it's having everyone serve the party leaders or protecting the claims of the rich and powerful at the expense of everyone else... it hardly matters.
The care for its populace is lopsided and made evident by the state they are in.

I'm not seeing how your argument supports your claim of being a massively confused false dichotomy. :-k

It seems that you are choosing the latter - the society exists for sake of the children (or citizenry).

Pedro I Rengel wrote:What you are saying is fairly obvious, out in the open. It is a mistake to think that your opponents are not fully aware of this.

I am not speaking to my opponents - Labor doesn't try to sway Liberal - arguments are only for those uncertain of their real situation - the undecided.
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              You have been observed.
    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just the same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --
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Re: Should Parents Have a Say?

Postby Mad Man P » Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:26 am

obsrvr524 wrote:I'm not seeing how your argument supports your claim of being a massively confused false dichotomy. :-k

It seems that you are choosing the latter - the society exists for sake of the children (or citizenry).


To have one, you must have the other.
You cannot have a society serve its citizens without those citizens also being inducted into the service of that society.
If no one is willing to give, than there is nothing for anyone to receive.
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Re: Should Parents Have a Say?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:27 am

obsrvr524 wrote:
Pedro I Rengel wrote:What you are saying is fairly obvious, out in the open. It is a mistake to think that your opponents are not fully aware of this.

I am not speaking to my opponents - Labor doesn't try to sway Liberal - arguments are only for those uncertain of their real situation - the undecided.


What matters isn't what they want to do with government power over people's children. What matters is that they want government power over people's children.
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Re: Should Parents Have a Say?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:28 am

Mad Man P wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:I'm not seeing how your argument supports your claim of being a massively confused false dichotomy. :-k

It seems that you are choosing the latter - the society exists for sake of the children (or citizenry).


To have one, you must have the other.
You cannot have a society serve its citizens without those citizens also being inducted into the service of that society.
If no one is willing to give, than there is nothing for anyone to receive.


At least this one is ready to admit that it is indoctrination, and not education.
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Re: Should Parents Have a Say?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:30 am

The stated purpose of the US government, and all governments originally formed by free peoples, is to protect the freedom of its people. Not to induct them into service of their societies.
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Re: Should Parents Have a Say?

Postby Mad Man P » Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:38 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:The stated purpose of the US government, and all governments originally formed by free peoples, is to protect the freedom of its people. Not to induct them into service of their societies.


Unless it's protecting those freedoms with a hope and a prayer, I think it's safe to assume there must be people inducted into that service... usually everyone, in the form of taxation which is then used to pay people to actually do the job or protecting those freedoms.

Pedro I Rengel wrote:At least this one is ready to admit that it is indoctrination, and not education.


Hush now, the adults are talking.
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Re: Should Parents Have a Say?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:40 am

Mad Man P wrote:Unless it's protecting those freedoms with a hope and a prayer, I think it's safe to assume there must be people inducted into that service... usually everyone, in the form of taxation which is then used to pay people to actually do the job or protecting those freedoms.


Slavery is freedom. Gotcha.

Mad Man P wrote:Hush now, the adults are talking.


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Re: Should Parents Have a Say?

Postby Mad Man P » Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:45 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Slavery is freedom. Gotcha.


Solidarity is slavery. Gotcha.
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Re: Should Parents Have a Say?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:46 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:The stated purpose of the US government, and all governments originally formed by free peoples, is to protect the freedom of its people. Not to induct them into service of their societies.


Not solidarity, not service. Freedom.
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Re: Should Parents Have a Say?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:11 am

Nobody needs to be inducted into the protection of freedom.

Free men do that quite naturally. They beg for the opportunity.

In glorious nazi fashion, you are talking about the government having power over people's children as a means to protect their freedom. To your credit, you quickly pivot to solidarity, because the first thing you said is comically disjointed.
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Re: Should Parents Have a Say?

Postby MagsJ » Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:15 am

_
I thought that’s what Parents’ Evening was for..?


It might be, that perhaps American school teachers do not want
their fun to be interrupted or stopped?

I don’t recall ever touching any of my teachers, let alone like that..

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Re: Should Parents Have a Say?

Postby Magnus Anderson » Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:14 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Propaganda doesn't hide the truth. The truth is out there, nobody is hiding it.


Pretty sure it does. By repeating falsehoods, you make it difficult for others to discover the truth. It's all about manipulating what's immediately accessible and what takes effort to reach. Why do we listen to crappy music? Precisely because crappy music is easy to access. They play it wherever you go, so when you return home and you want to unwind, the first thing that pops into your mind is crappy music (because all those repetitions kept it on your mind) and whatever truly fits your needs at that particular moment is hidden from you and requires quite a bit of effort to discover.

If you don't see the truth, it is not because somebody is pulling a blind over your eyes. It is because you are a coward.


I kindly disagree.
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Re: Should Parents Have a Say?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:05 pm

MagsJ wrote:_
I thought that’s what Parents’ Evening was for..?


It might be, that perhaps American school teachers do not want
their fun to be interrupted or stopped?

I don’t recall ever touching any of my teachers, let alone like that..

94EC99CA-7C1D-48FF-AB39-B1876824CB76.jpeg
AE82C513-9530-4A9A-9A54-98AA8ED4C590.jpeg



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Re: Should Parents Have a Say?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:54 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:I kindly disagree.


Well, at least you do it kindly.

Magnus Anderson wrote:
Pretty sure it does. By repeating falsehoods, you make it difficult for others to discover the truth. It's all about manipulating what's immediately accessible and what takes effort to reach. Why do we listen to crappy music? Precisely because crappy music is easy to access. They play it wherever you go, so when you return home and you want to unwind, the first thing that pops into your mind is crappy music (because all those repetitions kept it on your mind) and whatever truly fits your needs at that particular moment is hidden from you and requires quite a bit of effort to discover.


No, nothing is hidden. The trick is that the crappy music you mention has to have something to latch on to: the emotion it exploits has to exist inside you. Because some autotune goddess puts out a new single, Vivaldi isn't hidden from you. Because someone exploits Mr R's lack of a feeling of power, the mechanisms of authoritarianism aren't hidden from him. Propaganda does not hide, it does two things: it gives you instant satisfaction for an emotion you do not want to acknowledge, and it gives you a means not to acknowledge it.

Again, nobody actually believes an anti-bacterial mask can ward off a cold-like virus. No amount of repetition can erase the self-evidence of the falsity. What the repetition does is address your need to feel the world is "under control," and a way to pretend that it's not actually about that but about stopping a virus.

It does not hide. It only proposes. If it were some highly technical detail of a very complicated thesis, then we could talk about manipulation of truth. But when it is about things that a mentally-challenged person can see without difficulty, then we are in the realm of plausible deniability.
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Re: Should Parents Have a Say?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:16 pm

Whether parents should have a say in the education of their children is not a question that interests a communist. A communist doesn't care about the parent, or the child. He is interested in feeling that he is involved in a project that directs the lives of millions.

Propaganda, then, about what the government should do with its power over children, is not meant to hide the fact that the government is imposing power over people's children. The fact is plain as day, and when someone like Mr r is confronted with it, he just throws out a personal attack and scuttles away, where before he was very happy to "discuss the issues" and "give his opinion." He does this because it is plain as day, it is not hidden from him. What the propaganda about what the government should do with its power over children is meant to do is give him a way to avoid discussing the fact of government power over children. What they actually do with the children could not concern him less.

It doesn't convince him to submit to authoritarianism, or hide the fact of authoritarianism from him, it gives him a means to submit to it and avoid discussing it.

The original emotion, the thrill at feeling that he is involved in a project that directs the lives of millions, has to be there. No amount of propaganda can plant it. And no amount of truth will remove it.
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Re: Should Parents Have a Say?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:22 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:The original emotion, the thrill at feeling that he is involved in a project that directs the lives of millions, has to be there. No amount of propaganda can plant it. And no amount of truth will remove it.


Of course, with young children it is possible to implant. But this is not done by means of propaganda, but by means of abuse and trauma. They have to create the feeling of powerlessness that gives way to enjoying the idea of directing the lives of millions.
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Re: Should Parents Have a Say?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:29 pm

The utopia is not the goal, it is the excuse.
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Re: Should Parents Have a Say?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:38 pm

The worst thing we can do is to pretend along with them.
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Re: Should Parents Have a Say?

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:01 pm

Mad Man P wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:I'm not seeing how your argument supports your claim of being a massively confused false dichotomy. :-k

It seems that you are choosing the latter - the society exists for sake of the children (or citizenry).


To have one, you must have the other.
You cannot have a society serve its citizens without those citizens also being inducted into the service of that society.
If no one is willing to give, than there is nothing for anyone to receive.

But you seem to be equating or conflating interdependence with priority.

    If a government is found to not serve its people at all - not even a little - it would be understood that such a government should be removed and possibly replaced by a better one - why go to the trouble of having and paying for a totally dysfunctional government?
But

    If a citizen is found to not serve his government at all - not even a little - is it understood that the citizen should be removed and replaced? That is exactly what is going on in the US right now at this very moment - replacing disfavored citizens with more compliant citizens.

The new communists of America as well as the CCP totally agree with the latter and totally ignore the former.

It isn't a question of which entity should exist - it is a question of which has the higher priority - "which has greater say in what is going on in the society - the purpose of the society as a whole and the means of obtaining it".

Those who want to rule the world say that the purpose of society is to help them rule the world (and that is very precisely and directly what they are currently doing - not even hidden - just ask Xi Jinping - he has stated it directly). And they make no binding promises as to what they will do with the world once they control it all (merely "have faith in my virtue" promises - just look at O'Biden's betrayal) - and that is why it goes corrupt - there is no binding to keep them honest or virtuous. A proper civil rights constitution takes care of that problem. But that means that the people are agreeing ("constitutional") - which means they have a priority say in what the government does or doesn't do regarding the entire society - not merely what propaganda is being fed to their children.
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    Though often tempted to encourage a dog to distinguish color I refuse to argue with him about it
    It's just the same Satanism as always -
    • separate the bottom from the top,
    • the left from the right,
    • the light from the dark, and
    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
    • -- but "you" have been observed --
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