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Re: What it does is what it Is

PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:53 pm
by Ierrellus
Pedro I Rengel wrote:I fear we are falling into the trap of discussing what the teleology might be, instead of the question of the fact of teleology, of a personal evolution that encompasses more than just the anthroposphere.

I agree with Crick's suggestion of panspermia--that organic matter in comets and on asteroids fell into the sea, seeding life on the planet. This is prior to the anthroposphere and is continuing now. This is the transition of matter into life, which goes back to matter ejaculated from exploding stars. DNA is a combination of four chemicals, is matter. Yet it expands life. So there needs to be no talk of teleology that does not include matter. There is no mind/matter schism. Add to mind and matter spirit, the intuitive awareness of the whole as a realistic goal. The mind/brain is a masterpiece of evolution and the spirit recognizes its origins.

Re: What it does is what it Is

PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:51 pm
by Pedro I Rengel
Ierrellus wrote: There is no mind/matter schism.
Ierrellus wrote:The mind/brain is a masterpiece of evolution


Agree enthusiastically.

Re: What it does is what it Is

PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:49 pm
by Ierrellus
Your personal evolution from a fertilized egg to an adult human being mirrors the larger evolution of all life forms. The determinism with which this comes to be is not an obstacle for free will. We can make choices within the general confines of evolutionary determinism. That we can hope at all is indication of a spiritual nature. Thus it saddens me to hear some people claiming that they see no need or possibility of hope from their given set of circumstances. They have a choice of accepting or denying the kingdom within, which is the source of hope. Once again, evolutionary determinism is progressive and creative with room for hope in our preferred choices. Still the problem of determinism is as thorny an issue as is teleology.
Our choices can change the course of evolution.

Re: What it does is what it Is

PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:50 pm
by felix dakat
In "The Essential Kabbalah" by Daniel C. Matt quotes Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook: "The theory of evolution accords with the secrets of Kabbalah better than any other theory. Evolution follows a path of ascent and thus provides the world with a basis for optimism. How can one despair, seeing that everything evolves and ascends? When we penetrate the inner nature of evolution, we find divinity illuminated in perfect clarity. Ein Sof generates, actualizes potential infinity."

Of course, individuals can and do despair. We do this when we cannot see that we are evolving as individuals, or we don't see things evolving on a grand scale. Why people see things one of these ways or the other is a mystery. Often the ego is blocking the view. Those disparate ways of seeing the world are ones that I traverse often multiple times in a single day.

Re: What it does is what it Is

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:48 pm
by Ierrellus
felix dakat wrote:In "The Essential Kabbalah" by Daniel C. Matt quotes Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook: "The theory of evolution accords with the secrets of Kabbalah better than any other theory. Evolution follows a path of ascent and thus provides the world with a basis for optimism. How can one despair, seeing that everything evolves and ascends? When we penetrate the inner nature of evolution, we find divinity illuminated in perfect clarity. Ein Sof generates, actualizes potential infinity."

Of course, individuals can and do despair. We do this when we cannot see that we are evolving as individuals, or we don't see things evolving on a grand scale. Why people see things one of these ways or the other is a mystery. Often the ego is blocking the view. Those disparate ways of seeing the world are ones that I traverse often multiple times in a single day.

Thank you for the timely reference. As for the despair, it may be that evolution is not always a straight forward progression, but is riddled with false starts and retrogressive thinking. Ideas such as that we are competitors vying for survival and progression as fortuitous need to be considered in the light of how they have determined existence in the West. We in the West, in a debt no doubt owed to Martin Luther, have worshipped the idea of rugged individualism. Although there is good reason to see the I often as a necessary perspective, it is the Other and the we that are necessary considerations for any sense of morality. In other words orthogenesis as a path to morality may be a crooked road forward. But no spiritual journey is easy.

Re: What it does is what it Is

PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:42 pm
by felix dakat
Ierrellus wrote:
felix dakat wrote:In "The Essential Kabbalah" by Daniel C. Matt quotes Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook: "The theory of evolution accords with the secrets of Kabbalah better than any other theory. Evolution follows a path of ascent and thus provides the world with a basis for optimism. How can one despair, seeing that everything evolves and ascends? When we penetrate the inner nature of evolution, we find divinity illuminated in perfect clarity. Ein Sof generates, actualizes potential infinity."

Of course, individuals can and do despair. We do this when we cannot see that we are evolving as individuals, or we don't see things evolving on a grand scale. Why people see things one of these ways or the other is a mystery. Often the ego is blocking the view. Those disparate ways of seeing the world are ones that I traverse often multiple times in a single day.

Thank you for the timely reference. As for the despair, it may be that evolution is not always a straight forward progression, but is riddled with false starts and retrogressive thinking. Ideas such as that we are competitors vying for survival and progression as fortuitous need to be considered in the light of how they have determined existence in the West. We in the West, in a debt no doubt owed to Martin Luther, have worshipped the idea of rugged individualism. Although there is good reason to see the I often as a necessary perspective, it is the Other and the we that are necessary considerations for any sense of morality. In other words orthogenesis as a path to morality may be a crooked road forward. But no spiritual journey is easy.


You and I are both students of the perennial wisdom tradition. I see oneness behind Christianity, Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Animism, Science, Depth psychology, Gnosticism, Hermeticism, Neoplatonism, Agnosticism even Nihilism. The list goes on. Presently Kabbalism is rocking my world. Also archetypal astrology. Esoteric religion participates in the common core at the center of everything. Like gravity love always seeks the center.

Re: What it does is what it Is

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:22 pm
by Ierrellus
Amen, Felix. How does the Kabbalah account for false starts?

Re: What it does is what it Is

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:08 pm
by felix dakat
Ierrellus wrote:Amen, Felix. How does the Kabbalah account for false starts?

Whoever delves into mysticism cannot help but stumble, as it is written: "This stumbling block is in your hand." You cannot grasp these things unless you stumble over them.

Re: What it does is what it Is

PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:37 pm
by Ierrellus
If it had not been inherited in the blood and substantiated through evolving memes, there would exist today no such phenomenon as religion. In all of its forms religion has continued from shamanism to individual perspectives. It continues to evolve in open minds. It has evolved from belief in a God without to experience of a God within. There is no philosophical argument able to refute experience. Most atheists denounce the God without as described in the OT. They cannot refute the NT hope of a saved, from itself, world. The evolution of God from fatherhood to brotherhood offers the only viable remedy for the evils we do to each other and to the planet.

Re: What it does is what it Is

PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:35 pm
by felix dakat
Ierrellus wrote:If it had not been inherited in the blood and substantiated through evolving memes, there would exist today no such phenomenon as religion. In all of its forms religion has continued from shamanism to individual perspectives. It continues to evolve in open minds. It has evolved from belief in a God without to experience of a God within. There is no philosophical argument able to refute experience. Most atheists denounce the God without as described in the OT. They cannot refute the NT hope of a saved, from itself, world. The evolution of God from fatherhood to brotherhood offers the only viable remedy for the evils we do to each other and to the planet.


Humanity continues to evolve and our experience of God is evolving too.

Re: What it does is what it Is

PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:49 pm
by Ierrellus
felix dakat wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:If it had not been inherited in the blood and substantiated through evolving memes, there would exist today no such phenomenon as religion. In all of its forms religion has continued from shamanism to individual perspectives. It continues to evolve in open minds. It has evolved from belief in a God without to experience of a God within. There is no philosophical argument able to refute experience. Most atheists denounce the God without as described in the OT. They cannot refute the NT hope of a saved, from itself, world. The evolution of God from fatherhood to brotherhood offers the only viable remedy for the evils we do to each other and to the planet.


Humanity continues to evolve and our experience of God is evolving too.

I agree.