What it does is what it Is

Half-formed posts, inchoate philosophies, and the germs of deep thought.

Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:53 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:I fear we are falling into the trap of discussing what the teleology might be, instead of the question of the fact of teleology, of a personal evolution that encompasses more than just the anthroposphere.

I agree with Crick's suggestion of panspermia--that organic matter in comets and on asteroids fell into the sea, seeding life on the planet. This is prior to the anthroposphere and is continuing now. This is the transition of matter into life, which goes back to matter ejaculated from exploding stars. DNA is a combination of four chemicals, is matter. Yet it expands life. So there needs to be no talk of teleology that does not include matter. There is no mind/matter schism. Add to mind and matter spirit, the intuitive awareness of the whole as a realistic goal. The mind/brain is a masterpiece of evolution and the spirit recognizes its origins.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:51 pm

Ierrellus wrote: There is no mind/matter schism.
Ierrellus wrote:The mind/brain is a masterpiece of evolution


Agree enthusiastically.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:49 pm

Your personal evolution from a fertilized egg to an adult human being mirrors the larger evolution of all life forms. The determinism with which this comes to be is not an obstacle for free will. We can make choices within the general confines of evolutionary determinism. That we can hope at all is indication of a spiritual nature. Thus it saddens me to hear some people claiming that they see no need or possibility of hope from their given set of circumstances. They have a choice of accepting or denying the kingdom within, which is the source of hope. Once again, evolutionary determinism is progressive and creative with room for hope in our preferred choices. Still the problem of determinism is as thorny an issue as is teleology.
Our choices can change the course of evolution.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby felix dakat » Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:50 pm

In "The Essential Kabbalah" by Daniel C. Matt quotes Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook: "The theory of evolution accords with the secrets of Kabbalah better than any other theory. Evolution follows a path of ascent and thus provides the world with a basis for optimism. How can one despair, seeing that everything evolves and ascends? When we penetrate the inner nature of evolution, we find divinity illuminated in perfect clarity. Ein Sof generates, actualizes potential infinity."

Of course, individuals can and do despair. We do this when we cannot see that we are evolving as individuals, or we don't see things evolving on a grand scale. Why people see things one of these ways or the other is a mystery. Often the ego is blocking the view. Those disparate ways of seeing the world are ones that I traverse often multiple times in a single day.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:48 pm

felix dakat wrote:In "The Essential Kabbalah" by Daniel C. Matt quotes Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook: "The theory of evolution accords with the secrets of Kabbalah better than any other theory. Evolution follows a path of ascent and thus provides the world with a basis for optimism. How can one despair, seeing that everything evolves and ascends? When we penetrate the inner nature of evolution, we find divinity illuminated in perfect clarity. Ein Sof generates, actualizes potential infinity."

Of course, individuals can and do despair. We do this when we cannot see that we are evolving as individuals, or we don't see things evolving on a grand scale. Why people see things one of these ways or the other is a mystery. Often the ego is blocking the view. Those disparate ways of seeing the world are ones that I traverse often multiple times in a single day.

Thank you for the timely reference. As for the despair, it may be that evolution is not always a straight forward progression, but is riddled with false starts and retrogressive thinking. Ideas such as that we are competitors vying for survival and progression as fortuitous need to be considered in the light of how they have determined existence in the West. We in the West, in a debt no doubt owed to Martin Luther, have worshipped the idea of rugged individualism. Although there is good reason to see the I often as a necessary perspective, it is the Other and the we that are necessary considerations for any sense of morality. In other words orthogenesis as a path to morality may be a crooked road forward. But no spiritual journey is easy.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby felix dakat » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:42 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
felix dakat wrote:In "The Essential Kabbalah" by Daniel C. Matt quotes Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook: "The theory of evolution accords with the secrets of Kabbalah better than any other theory. Evolution follows a path of ascent and thus provides the world with a basis for optimism. How can one despair, seeing that everything evolves and ascends? When we penetrate the inner nature of evolution, we find divinity illuminated in perfect clarity. Ein Sof generates, actualizes potential infinity."

Of course, individuals can and do despair. We do this when we cannot see that we are evolving as individuals, or we don't see things evolving on a grand scale. Why people see things one of these ways or the other is a mystery. Often the ego is blocking the view. Those disparate ways of seeing the world are ones that I traverse often multiple times in a single day.

Thank you for the timely reference. As for the despair, it may be that evolution is not always a straight forward progression, but is riddled with false starts and retrogressive thinking. Ideas such as that we are competitors vying for survival and progression as fortuitous need to be considered in the light of how they have determined existence in the West. We in the West, in a debt no doubt owed to Martin Luther, have worshipped the idea of rugged individualism. Although there is good reason to see the I often as a necessary perspective, it is the Other and the we that are necessary considerations for any sense of morality. In other words orthogenesis as a path to morality may be a crooked road forward. But no spiritual journey is easy.


You and I are both students of the perennial wisdom tradition. I see oneness behind Christianity, Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Animism, Science, Depth psychology, Gnosticism, Hermeticism, Neoplatonism, Agnosticism even Nihilism. The list goes on. Presently Kabbalism is rocking my world. Also archetypal astrology. Esoteric religion participates in the common core at the center of everything. Like gravity love always seeks the center.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:22 pm

Amen, Felix. How does the Kabbalah account for false starts?
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby felix dakat » Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:08 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Amen, Felix. How does the Kabbalah account for false starts?

Whoever delves into mysticism cannot help but stumble, as it is written: "This stumbling block is in your hand." You cannot grasp these things unless you stumble over them.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:37 pm

If it had not been inherited in the blood and substantiated through evolving memes, there would exist today no such phenomenon as religion. In all of its forms religion has continued from shamanism to individual perspectives. It continues to evolve in open minds. It has evolved from belief in a God without to experience of a God within. There is no philosophical argument able to refute experience. Most atheists denounce the God without as described in the OT. They cannot refute the NT hope of a saved, from itself, world. The evolution of God from fatherhood to brotherhood offers the only viable remedy for the evils we do to each other and to the planet.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby felix dakat » Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:35 pm

Ierrellus wrote:If it had not been inherited in the blood and substantiated through evolving memes, there would exist today no such phenomenon as religion. In all of its forms religion has continued from shamanism to individual perspectives. It continues to evolve in open minds. It has evolved from belief in a God without to experience of a God within. There is no philosophical argument able to refute experience. Most atheists denounce the God without as described in the OT. They cannot refute the NT hope of a saved, from itself, world. The evolution of God from fatherhood to brotherhood offers the only viable remedy for the evils we do to each other and to the planet.


Humanity continues to evolve and our experience of God is evolving too.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:49 pm

felix dakat wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:If it had not been inherited in the blood and substantiated through evolving memes, there would exist today no such phenomenon as religion. In all of its forms religion has continued from shamanism to individual perspectives. It continues to evolve in open minds. It has evolved from belief in a God without to experience of a God within. There is no philosophical argument able to refute experience. Most atheists denounce the God without as described in the OT. They cannot refute the NT hope of a saved, from itself, world. The evolution of God from fatherhood to brotherhood offers the only viable remedy for the evils we do to each other and to the planet.


Humanity continues to evolve and our experience of God is evolving too.

I agree.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:19 pm

Proof of the existence of God is available in the experience of evolution.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby iambiguous » Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:02 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Proof of the existence of God is available in the experience of evolution.


Okay, let's say this is true. Let's say that the proof is there.

Then obviously: Which particular God?

And, down through the ages, given the hundreds and hundreds of often times conflicting assessments of what it means to believe in this God and to bend your will to His own, "how ought one to live" given "morality here and now, immortality there and then"?

The part about God and religion that most interest me.

Again, with so much at stake here -- for example, "I" for all of eternity -- why has God not made it abundantly clear which path mere mortals are obligated to be on in order to attain salvation for their very soul?

And then the question of theodicy: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=196522

For those convinced the evidence is there to accept that a God, the God, their God is the one derived from the experience of evolution.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:55 pm

Yet another attempt by Iamb to force this thread into the philosophical understanding he supports. It will not fit simply because God is known by experience, not by names. The experience is sufficient proof of God. All descriptions fall short of this reality. By now he should have understood something of the nature of God as exemplified in Nature and the Cosmos.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby iambiguous » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:51 pm

Ierrellus wrote: Yet another attempt by Iamb to force this thread into the philosophical understanding he supports.


Right, like noting this in and of itself makes the points I raise above go away.

Though, sure, when I come to a thread pertaining to God and religion, my inclination is to take the discussion to "morality here and now, immortality there and then". That actually seems reasonable to me. And, come on, for all practical purposes, what could possibly be more profoundly relevant to mere mortals pertaining to a discussion of them?

In other words, what "I" am here is what "I" do.

On the other hand, "force"? What, like others here are actually required to read and to respond to anything at all that I post. Why doesn't he just join the crowd and "foe" me. That will keep most of the disturbing things I suggest about God and religion out of his head.

Then of course straight back up into the spiritual clouds:

Ierrellus wrote: It will not fit simply because God is known by experience, not by names. The experience is sufficient proof of God. All descriptions fall short of this reality. By now he should have understood something of the nature of God as exemplified in Nature and the Cosmos.


You know, whatever, "for all practical purposes" that means. Pertaining to, say, the fate of your Soul for all of eternity?

As for Nature, down here it's nothing short of an almost unimaginably savage slaughterhouse.

As for the Cosmos, where does his own experiences relating to God fit into this:

Peter: What branch of physics were you involved with?
Lloyd: Something much more terrifying than blowing up the planet.
Peter: Really? Is there anything more terrifying than the destruction of the world?
Lloyd: Yeah. The knowledge that it doesn't matter one way or the other. It's all random...resonating aimlessly out of nothing and eventually vanishing forever. And I'm not talking about the world. I'm talking about the universe. All space, all time just a temporary convulsion. And I get paid to prove it.
Peter: Do you feel so sure about that when you look out on a clear night like tonight and see all those millions of stars? That none of it matters?
Lloyd: I think it's as beautiful as you do...and vaguely evocative of some deep truth that always just keeps slipping away. But then my professional perspective overcomes me and a see more penetrating view of it...and I understand it for what it truly is...haphazard, morally neutral, and unimaginably violent.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:22 pm

Iamb.,
You and I speak two different languages. I have no more desire to learn yours than you have to learn mine.
Yes, "Nature is red in tooth and claw"-Tennyson; but nothing is ever lost.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby iambiguous » Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:30 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Iamb.,
You and I speak two different languages. I have no more desire to learn yours than you have to learn mine.
Yes, "Nature is red in tooth and claw"-Tennyson; but nothing is ever lost.


More to the point [mine], the language that you speak comforts and consoles you a hell of a lot more than the language that I speak comforts and consoles me. No doubt about who is the "winner" here, right?

And, in my view, you completely bend over backwards to avoid confronting the points that I raise in order to sustain that crucial distinction.

But: you won't go there -- in a philosophy forum! -- because there is simply too much that might be lost if you take the blinders off.

So, sure, keep them on. Stay up in the clouds that are those spiritual contraptions you never dare to come down out of.

After all, I did dare to.

And, trust me, the consequences of that have been brutal. You have no idea how it feels to think yourself into believing that your own existence is essentially meaningless and purposeless. And that, even worse, it will come to an end for all of eternity in oblivion.

After all, I was once you too, you know.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:21 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Iamb.,
You and I speak two different languages. I have no more desire to learn yours than you have to learn mine.
Yes, "Nature is red in tooth and claw"-Tennyson; but nothing is ever lost.


More to the point [mine], the language that you speak comforts and consoles you a hell of a lot more than the language that I speak comforts and consoles me. No doubt about who is the "winner" here, right?

And, in my view, you completely bend over backwards to avoid confronting the points that I raise in order to sustain that crucial distinction.

But: you won't go there -- in a philosophy forum! -- because there is simply too much that might be lost if you take the blinders off.

So, sure, keep them on. Stay up in the clouds that are those spiritual contraptions you never dare to come down out of.

After all, I did dare to.

And, trust me, the consequences of that have been brutal. You have no idea how it feels to think yourself into believing that your own existence is essentially meaningless and purposeless. And that, even worse, it will come to an end for all of eternity in oblivion.

After all, I was once you too, you know.

Which of us had blinders to shed? Not me. Your outlook on life is too bleak for me to consider in or out of a philosophy forum. And I have seen no rules or regulations in this forum that would make my take on existence unacceptable here or elsewhere. You were never me. You know nothing about me except for your interpretation of my posts. I would ask the moderators here whether or not these posts are acceptable in a philosophy forum.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:57 pm

What my thread is about---implications of the existence of God in the determinism and outcomes of bio-chemical evolution--perhaps lost in useless quibbles over what philosophy allows.
"There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Last edited by Ierrellus on Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:22 pm

The bone of contention about positive evolution is whether it is fortuitous or teleological. I prefer to think that it implies purpose.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby iambiguous » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:40 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Which of us had blinders to shed? Not me. Your outlook on life is too bleak for me to consider in or out of a philosophy forum.


See, there you go again. My outlook is "too bleak". But not because you actually address my points above and offer ways in which one might think and feel about them in a less bleak manner.

No, my outlook is just too bleak period. And it must be irrational simply because it is too bleak.

It would be like particular Jews in the early days of Nazi Germany noting ominous things about Hitler, and other Jews saying, no, that's just too bleak to be true. Or those reacting to Nietzsche's "God is dead" speculations back then and thinking, "No God? No way! That's just too bleak to contemplate!!"

And, yeah, the world as we know it to be is a very bleak place if there is no ultimately loving, just and merciful God up there or out there somewhere. You won't get an argument from me about that.

But what about this God, given the points I make above?

Nope, let's not go there, right?

I hear you! Or, rather, I did back when my own belief in the Christian God started crumbling. Now, for me, it's one or another rendition of this: https://youtu.be/VKcAYMb5uk4

And, given that, all I can do is to come into places like this and hope against hope that there are others intelligent enough to yank me up out of that frame of mind. But that starts with him or her at least addressing my points.

Ierrellus wrote:And I have seen no rules or regulations in this forum that would make my take on existence unacceptable here or elsewhere. You were never me. You know nothing about me except for your interpretation of my posts. I would ask the moderators here whether or not these posts are acceptable in a philosophy forum.


Where are you going here?

Note to others:

Where do you think he is going here?

Look, you once asked me not to include posts of yours in my "on discussing god and religion" thread. And I stopped doing it.

Same here. If my posts anger and disturb you as much as [to me] they seem to, just ask me to stop responding to anything that you post here at ILP.

And I will stop.


Edit:

I do respect you here. Unlike the Kids and the fulminating fanatics, you clearly take the time to, introspectively, think through in your own way the fundamentally important questions revolving around, "how ought one to live?"

Given "I and Thou".

But you are either willing to respect the intelligence of those who don't share your own "leap of faith" or "wager" in regard to God and religion or you need to ask yourself why you don't or won't or can't.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:35 pm

It is not out of disrespect for those who disagree with me that causes me to eschew their worldview; it is because they will not hear anything that does not fit their philosophical agenda. If nihilism is comforting, which I think not, let it be. I opt for hope in a viable future for all mankind.
The internet contains a plethora of podcasts by wise and thoughtful people who opine about theism and evolution. It is time in history for the two to see what each owes to the other in explanations of what it means to be human. This is a new, hopeful age for the marriage of science and religion. We can evolve into that union.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby iambiguous » Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:56 pm

Ierrellus wrote: It is not out of disrespect for those who disagree with me that causes me to eschew their worldview; it is because they will not hear anything that does not fit their philosophical agenda. If nihilism is comforting, which I think not, let it be. I opt for hope in a viable future for all mankind.


Right, like you are more than willing to explore the arguments of those like me who disagree with you. By, for example, actually addressing the points I raise above. As though, instead, the whole point of posting here isn't really to sustain your own far more comforting and consoling spiritual path.

And you seem rather adamant that nihilism is to be rejected precisely because it isn't comforting. That's the main criteria for you. Or so it certainly seems to me. Only, in a philosophy forum, should feeling soothed and solaced be the main criteria for establishing wisdom.

No, in my view, that's the main aim of the objectivists. God or No God. It's not what you and your ilk believe but that what you believe allows you to anchor your Self to something that can ensure you that "in your head" life is essentially meaningful and purposeful. And that, for the religious objectivists, it all continues beyond the grave. What I call the psychology of objectivism.

Ierrellus wrote:The internet contains a plethora of podcasts by wise and thoughtful people who opine about theism and evolution. It is time in history for the two to see what each owes to the other in explanations of what it means to be human. This is a new, hopeful age for the marriage of science and religion. We can evolve into that union.


Know any of them? Then invite them here. Maybe they will have both the intellectual integrity and honesty -- in a philosophy forum -- to address the points I raise.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:24 pm

Iamb,
You inevitably turn the conversation to personal matters and your take on my consideration of nihilism is off the mark.
Please refrain from posting in my thread. You add nothing to the current debates on religion as equal to science in exploring what it is like to be human.
You had rather distort opinions of anyone other than yours instead of trying to understand those opinions. In short your take is no help here. Please vacate the premises. A million podcasts brought here for you to see would not alter your take on the matter.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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Ierrellus
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby iambiguous » Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:11 pm

Ierrellus wrote: Iamb,
You inevitably turn the conversation to personal matters and your take on my consideration of nihilism is off the mark.


No, I inevitably turn discussions of God and religion into exchanges regarding the actual behaviors that people choose on this side of the grave given that which they believe or would like the fate of "I" to be on the other side of the grave.

Or to discussions of theodicy.

Or the efforts of those who do believe in a God or a No God religious path to at least make an attempt to demonstrate to us how they demonstrate to themselves that what they believe "in their head" can be demonstrated to in fact be true. Especially given that there are hundreds and hundreds of conflicting paths out there...and with so much at stake.

Finally, discussions that revolve around the chief component of own philosophy here: the role that dasein plays in forming individual points of view about God and religion.

And I am only interested in your own consideration of nihilism given the extent to which you will explore that with me given the manner in which you connect the dots between morality here and now and immortality there and then.

Ierrellus wrote: Please refrain from posting in my thread.


Your thread? This thread? Or all of your threads and posts? Let's pin that down. If you want my disturbing arguments out of your head altogether then go all the way and insist on that.

Demonstrate to me that what I suspect of your own intellectual honesty and integrity is, sadly enough, all too true.

For example here...

Ierrellus wrote: You add nothing to the current debates on religion as equal to science in exploring what it is like to be human.
You had rather distort opinions of anyone other than yours instead of trying to understand those opinions. In short your take is no help here. Please vacate the premises. A million podcasts brought here for you to see would not alter your take on the matter.


...you configure into just one more of my many feckless Stooges.

Though I'll refrain from using the C word.

After all, in your own way [as with Felix and others], you do attempt to explore all of this in a more sophisticated manner than the Kids and the Fulminating Fanatics. So, sure, I do wish you well in taking your own precious "comfort and consolation" all the way to the grave.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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iambiguous
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