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Anarcho-Communism and Libertarian Socilaism

PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:14 pm
by Gloominary
How could the world, a nation or community collectivize the means of production, in the case of socialism, or all property, in the case of communism, without the state?

Re: Anarcho-Communism and Libertarian Socilaism

PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:42 am
by Mr Reasonable
I don't give a shit who holds the deed to the means of production. Let's just raise the tax rate of property and capital gains until we have enough money to feed the poor and to where Americans can get antibiotics as easily as Mexicans can.

Re: Anarcho-Communism and Libertarian Socilaism

PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:37 pm
by Gloominary
Mr Reasonable wrote:I don't give a shit who holds the deed to the means of production. Let's just raise the tax rate of property and capital gains until we have enough money to feed the poor and to where Americans can get antibiotics as easily as Mexicans can.

Agreed, I'm just curious about what anarcho-communists and libertarian socialists believe.

Re: Anarcho-Communism and Libertarian Socilaism

PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:46 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
as an long time anarchist, I will lay out the terms....

one of the preconditions of anarchism is that inherent goodness of
people... for anarchism to work, it needs people to be at their best,
for that is the only way anarchism can work, if everyone is an angel,
and that is why I am no longer a practicing anarchist....

we can reach anarchism if, if everyone is clear on values
and what it means to be human....if we improve our souls,
anarchism is easily achievable... if...…

the need for the state arises from people, being animals instead
of being people....


if we reach for our higher self, then the government isn't
necessary....but alas, people like to pander to their animal side,
by their desires, not needs, desires and it is the drive of desires
that lead human beings to be animals.....

our isms and ideologies are such, that we seek fulfillment in
money/profits/ material goods and as such, we need government....

in other words, we need to completely rework what it means to
be human.....

in socialism/communism, we don't need to be angels, but the government does exists,
however, we are deemed expendable in communism because of the dialectical
materialism.. which are political and social forces that are driven by
needs....and I don't believe human are expendable and the fact is,
communism is nihilistic.. the negation of human beings and their
values...

so, we need to create new theory which doesn't negate or dehumanize
human beings and their values....and allows people to fulfill their
needs and leads them to be able to achieve the goal of
self actualization...

so, we need to think outside the box of the old school ism's
and ideologies.. like capitalism and communism....

to find new ism's and ideologies that allow both human fulfillment
and to meet our needs....

don't look to the past for answers, look to the future....

Kropotkin

Re: Anarcho-Communism and Libertarian Socilaism

PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:41 pm
by Gloominary
Peter Kropotkin wrote:as an long time anarchist, I will lay out the terms....

one of the preconditions of anarchism is that inherent goodness of
people... for anarchism to work, it needs people to be at their best,
for that is the only way anarchism can work, if everyone is an angel,
and that is why I am no longer a practicing anarchist....

we can reach anarchism if, if everyone is clear on values
and what it means to be human....if we improve our souls,
anarchism is easily achievable... if...…

the need for the state arises from people, being animals instead
of being people....


if we reach for our higher self, then the government isn't
necessary....but alas, people like to pander to their animal side,
by their desires, not needs, desires and it is the drive of desires
that lead human beings to be animals.....

our isms and ideologies are such, that we seek fulfillment in
money/profits/ material goods and as such, we need government....

in other words, we need to completely rework what it means to
be human.....

in socialism/communism, we don't need to be angels, but the government does exists,
however, we are deemed expendable in communism because of the dialectical
materialism.. which are political and social forces that are driven by
needs....and I don't believe human are expendable and the fact is,
communism is nihilistic.. the negation of human beings and their
values...

so, we need to create new theory which doesn't negate or dehumanize
human beings and their values....and allows people to fulfill their
needs and leads them to be able to achieve the goal of
self actualization...

so, we need to think outside the box of the old school ism's
and ideologies.. like capitalism and communism....

to find new ism's and ideologies that allow both human fulfillment
and to meet our needs....

don't look to the past for answers, look to the future....

Kropotkin

So libertarian socialism means voluntarily sharing the means of production with others, even if you built or bought it, and anarcho-communism means voluntarily sharing goods with and serving others, from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs sort of speak?

How many people do you think have to be good, that is behave socially or communally, for a socioeconomy to function without a state?

All, the vast majority, most?

If 99% are good, can they just gang up on and force the bad to be good, without bureaucracy or military?

Can they form militias and force people to be good?

Is forcing others to be good still within the bounds of libertarian socialism and anarcho-communism, or beyond them?

Because there's just no way all people are going to be good all the time.

At what point will LSs and ACs force others to be good and how will they go about it?

Re: Anarcho-Communism and Libertarian Socilaism

PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:55 am
by Urwrongx1000
Gloominary wrote:How could the world, a nation or community collectivize the means of production, in the case of socialism, or all property, in the case of communism, without the state?

Worker Unions, which are technically new political blocs (new State).

Re: Anarcho-Communism and Libertarian Socilaism

PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:38 pm
by Gloominary
Urwrongx1000 wrote:
Gloominary wrote:How could the world, a nation or community collectivize the means of production, in the case of socialism, or all property, in the case of communism, without the state?

Worker Unions, which are technically new political blocs (new State).

Right, in anarchism, you can't have bureaucracy, military and police (unless they're privatized, meaning they're funded by the voluntary purchasing of their services by individuals, as in anarcho-capitalism), otherwise it's not anarchism, it's statism, but if people want to remain in a state of anarchy, they need to get armed and organized.
Militias could form in and around cooperatives and neighborhoods, which could either remain separate, or combine to form city militias, and even (inter)national militias, theoretically.

Re: Anarcho-Communism and Libertarian Socilaism

PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:10 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
the point of anarchism is to do away with the military all together...

the point is that people are so good, you don't need the military, police,
the state at all....that is the final goal of anarchism....and the problem with
anarchism...it isn't very likely....which is why I left anarchism...

Kropotkin

Re: Anarcho-Communism and Libertarian Socilaism

PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2020 3:26 pm
by Bob
Peter Kropotkin wrote:the point of anarchism is to do away with the military all together...

the point is that people are so good, you don't need the military, police,
the state at all....that is the final goal of anarchism....and the problem with
anarchism...it isn't very likely....which is why I left anarchism...

Kropotkin

The word anarchy was first used in 1539, meaning "an absence of government".[2] Pierre-Joseph Proudhon adopted the term in his 1840 treatise "What Is Property?" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy
This was primarily because all services and objects were being seen as saleable goods and the "gift society" (something we can hardly imagine anymore) was being underminded. Once everything becomes a commodity, society looses a bit of its cohesion.

Re: Anarcho-Communism and Libertarian Socilaism

PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2020 4:57 pm
by Meno_
Bob wrote:
Peter Kropotkin wrote:the point of anarchism is to do away with the military all together...

the point is that people are so good, you don't need the military, police,
the state at all....that is the final goal of anarchism....and the problem with
anarchism...it isn't very likely....which is why I left anarchism...

Kropotkin

The word anarchy was first used in 1539, meaning "an absence of government".[2] Pierre-Joseph Proudhon adopted the term in his 1840 treatise "What Is Property?" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy
This was primarily because all services and objects were being seen as saleable goods and the "gift society" (something we can hardly imagine anymore) was being underminded. Once everything becomes a commodity, society looses a bit of its cohesion.



True: and when labor becomes used as property, while the legal efforts to reverse the meaning of that use have are undermined, there is more lost than just a bit of cohesion.

Re: Anarcho-Communism and Libertarian Socilaism

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 3:46 am
by phoneutria
Peter Kropotkin wrote:as an long time anarchist, I will lay out the terms....

one of the preconditions of anarchism is that inherent goodness of
people... for anarchism to work, it needs people to be at their best,
for that is the only way anarchism can work, if everyone is an angel,
and that is why I am no longer a practicing anarchist....


people are inherently good toward relatives
family is the only true organization
also everyone does not need to be an angel what the fuck
there has to be justice, that is all

we can reach anarchism if, if everyone is clear on values
and what it means to be human....if we improve our souls,
anarchism is easily achievable... if...…


another reason why the family is the only true organization
values are inherited
there is no "being human" in a society of imposed hierarchy

the need for the state arises from people, being animals instead
of being people....

if we reach for our higher self, then the government isn't
necessary....but alas, people like to pander to their animal side,
by their desires, not needs, desires and it is the drive of desires
that lead human beings to be animals.....


lol higher self
why don't you castrate yourself while at it?

our isms and ideologies are such, that we seek fulfillment in
money/profits/ material goods and as such, we need government....

in other words, we need to completely rework what it means to
be human.....


society as it is, is already a complete rework of what it means to be human
that's why it doesn't fucking work
we don't need more artifice, we need less

in socialism/communism, we don't need to be angels, but the government does exists,
however, we are deemed expendable in communism because of the dialectical
materialism.. which are political and social forces that are driven by
needs....and I don't believe human are expendable and the fact is,
communism is nihilistic.. the negation of human beings and their
values...


further proof that dehumanising the human animal doesn't fucking work

so, we need to create new theory which doesn't negate or dehumanize
human beings and their values....and allows people to fulfill their
needs and leads them to be able to achieve the goal of
self actualization...

so, we need to think outside the box of the old school ism's
and ideologies.. like capitalism and communism....

to find new ism's and ideologies that allow both human fulfillment
and to meet our needs....

don't look to the past for answers, look to the future....

Kropotkin


we already have the only label that we need
free market

Re: Anarcho-Communism and Libertarian Socilaism

PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:05 pm
by Dan~
Peter Kropotkin wrote:as an long time anarchist, I will lay out the terms....

one of the preconditions of anarchism is that inherent goodness of
people... for anarchism to work, it needs people to be at their best,
for that is the only way anarchism can work, if everyone is an angel,
and that is why I am no longer a practicing anarchist....

we can reach anarchism if, if everyone is clear on values
and what it means to be human....if we improve our souls,
anarchism is easily achievable... if...…

the need for the state arises from people, being animals instead
of being people....


if we reach for our higher self, then the government isn't
necessary....but alas, people like to pander to their animal side,
by their desires, not needs, desires and it is the drive of desires
that lead human beings to be animals.....

our isms and ideologies are such, that we seek fulfillment in
money/profits/ material goods and as such, we need government....

in other words, we need to completely rework what it means to
be human.....

in socialism/communism, we don't need to be angels, but the government does exists,
however, we are deemed expendable in communism because of the dialectical
materialism.. which are political and social forces that are driven by
needs....and I don't believe human are expendable and the fact is,
communism is nihilistic.. the negation of human beings and their
values...

so, we need to create new theory which doesn't negate or dehumanize
human beings and their values....and allows people to fulfill their
needs and leads them to be able to achieve the goal of
self actualization...

so, we need to think outside the box of the old school ism's
and ideologies.. like capitalism and communism....

to find new ism's and ideologies that allow both human fulfillment
and to meet our needs....

don't look to the past for answers, look to the future....

Kropotkin


If people were all nice, every government would work.