What it does is what it Is

Half-formed posts, inchoate philosophies, and the germs of deep thought.

Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:46 pm

irreleus - what are you doing here?
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:21 pm

[quote="Sculptor"]irreleus - what are you doing here?[/quote
Presenting a book I enjoyed. I am not here to convince anyone of anything. I just present ideas; take them or leave them.
My name has two ls, no e after them--Ierrellus. This is my thread, which gives me the right to be here. Others who post are guests.
Last edited by Ierrellus on Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:45 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Sculptor wrote:irreleus - what are you doing here?[/quote
Presenting a book I enjoyed. I am not here to convince anyone of anything. I just present ideas; take them or leave them.
My name has two ls. This is my thread, which gives me the right to be here. Others who post are guests.


And I ma here to tell you that Dowd is a charlatan.
I'm puzzled why you are trying to censor me.
Surely my views are as valid as yours?
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:48 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:
Sculptor wrote:irreleus - what are you doing here?[/quote
Presenting a book I enjoyed. I am not here to convince anyone of anything. I just present ideas; take them or leave them.
My name has two ls. This is my thread, which gives me the right to be here. Others who post are guests.


And I ma here to tell you that Dowd is a charlatan.
I'm puzzled why you are trying to censor me.
Surely my views are as valid as yours?

The only thing I had wished to censor is your presentation. Not your ideas. You are the only one here who posts with disdain and ad hom.
Dowd is respected by many, some in the scientist community, Nobel prize winners. Why should I consider him a charlatan?
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:27 pm

Perodites,
Once again, what does your AI think of Dowd?
How about a human response?
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:56 pm

[quote="Ierrellus"]
Last edited by Sculptor on Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:57 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Dowd is respected by many, some in the scientist community, Nobel prize winners. Why should I consider him a charlatan?


Charlie Manson Adolf Hiter Donald Trump and Donald Duck are also respected by many.
That is not an argument. Neither are your extensive list of Nobel Prize winners!! :lol:

Philosophy teaches us to be authentic and to avoid being sheeples.
Dowd is a crackpot Christian apologist clinging to the last vestiges of creation. He's about as relevant as Thomas Paley.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:32 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Dowd is respected by many, some in the scientist community, Nobel prize winners. Why should I consider him a charlatan?


Charlie Manson Adolf Hiter Donald Trump and Donald Duck are also respected by many.
That is not an argument. Neither are your extensive list of Nobel Prize winners!! :lol:

Philosophy teaches us to be authentic and to avoid being sheeples.
Dowd is a crackpot Christian apologist clinging to the last vestiges of creation. He's about as relevant as Thomas Paley.

Civility would be nice. Have you read Dowd yet? I admire Thomas Paley.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:52 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:God is as natural as are hands and feet,


Ierrellus, I can see and touch my hands and feet. That is natural. I cannot see and touch God in the same way.
Perhaps God is as natural because the word and concept has been floating around for centuries and centuries and has become so deeply embedded within our psyches. How could it be otherwise until we come to question it?

Because you do not believe in God, Arc does not mean there is no God in any first hand experience despite belief.


But what is it that puts God into that experience? Our own consciousness, beliefs, sensations, perceptions. A trick of the mind because of all the beauty and awesomeness and unexplainable things which see. So we come to bring God into the equation.

Despite belief? If one did not already believe in some kind of God, how could there be a first-hand experience of God?
That is confirmation bias I think.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... ation-bias

Personally I see nothing wrong with a belief in God and in these experiences as long as they do not become harmful to people
and as long as they add to a person's willingness to live the most creative and harmonious lol life possible.

Surely, you have had an experience of awe and wonder at Nature. Well, you are a part of Nature, so your response to Nature is as natural as hands and feet. For me that is a God experience. It is something much larger than I encompassing my I. Psychology does little to explain why this should be so. That the presence of God amounts to wishful thinking is a limited view of human understanding of ourselves. and God.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:51 am

Ierrellus wrote:
Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Dowd is respected by many, some in the scientist community, Nobel prize winners. Why should I consider him a charlatan?


Charlie Manson Adolf Hiter Donald Trump and Donald Duck are also respected by many.
That is not an argument. Neither are your extensive list of Nobel Prize winners!! :lol:

Philosophy teaches us to be authentic and to avoid being sheeples.
Dowd is a crackpot Christian apologist clinging to the last vestiges of creation. He's about as relevant as Thomas Paley.

Civility would be nice. Have you read Dowd yet? I admire Thomas Paley.


I fully expect a person that admires the irrelevant Paley to also be taken-in by Dowd, because Dowd is singing from the same song sheet. The song is How Desperate I am to Preserve a Vestige of god in my Mind
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:25 pm

Sculptor,
Paley simply addresses the old question of how things came to be as they are. When some who are scientists or philosophers dismiss this important question or consider it invalid, they miss the opportunity to examine something that is truly human---the desire to know from where we came. The idea that certain chemicals got together by accident and formed, eventually, DNA, is too bleak for most folks to adhere to. The idea that God brought these chemicals together is more palatable. Even a child will ask how things came to be as they are. That is not an infantile request; it is asked by billions and has had many answers; And to ask it is human.
One has only to consider the vastness of our universe to realize the vastness of God.
Last edited by Ierrellus on Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:27 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Sculptor,
Paley simply addresses the old question of how things came to be as they are.

No he does not.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:30 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Sculptor,
Paley simply addresses the old question of how things came to be as they are.

No he does not.

Then why did he suggest that God is the designer?
Correction----it was William Paley, not Thomas who penned the watch analogy,.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:38 pm

Arcturus Descending.
As are the flowers of the field, you are a part of Nature. That is fact and scientifically accurate. So you doubt a God made the flowers and yourself? Maybe that is a psychological posture as you accuse belief in God in Nature is of being. In the he says/'she says arguments the only answer possible lies in the possibility of intersubjective communication, a possibility where qualia can evoke mutual understanding. I cannot convince anyone of my God experience, which had nothing to do with wishful thinking, unless they have had a similar experience.
Likewise Dowd will never convince anyone that God is in the experienced activity of evolution. Darwin's theory provoked anger from those who did not want to believe their ancestors were a type of ape. The idea of man as the crown of creation implies human arrogance and anger at hearing the possibility that he has had lowly beginnings. So for many Nature is that thing out there, not an integral part of the Self. It is the thing that can be exploited, used.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:23 pm

Man's dominance over Nature is a conservative Christian idea. Progressive Christians do not think that way.
The best thing Darwin did was to include Man in the natural world as he saw it.
Remaining issues:
Was there a prime mover?
Is evolution teleological?
Is Man a part of Nature?
Is there anything that is supernatural?
The easiest answers are yes and no. What is needed is the why or why not.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:11 pm

Ierrellus

Surely, you have had an experience of awe and wonder at Nature.


Yes, what do you think? My whole life has been One.

Well, you are a part of Nature, so your response to Nature is as natural as hands and feet
.

My response to nature is based more on the individual I am and my brain chemistry probably. Do you believe that everyone responds to nature in the same way? I do not think so.


For me that is a God experience.


Yes, I can understand that. It was the same for me at one point in my life. I would be a hypocrite to say otherwise.
But now I see it as being my love affair with Nature not with God though I have always had a love affair with Nature.

If there is a God, do you think that this God would hold it against us to see beautiful nature but not this God?


That the presence of God amounts to wishful thinking is a limited view of human understanding of ourselves. and God.


This IS the thing though, Ierrellus, we do have a limited view of human understanding of ourselves and when we come to "see" and "recognize" it within ourselves we do not want to face it because we see ourselves as all too human.

Again, I see no reason that one cannot experience the presence of God within one's life as long as it leads to good and not
evil and crimes against humanity as very often it does.
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LIFE IS A BALANCE BETWEEN HOLDING ON AND LETTING GO!

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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:32 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Man's dominance over Nature is a conservative Christian idea. Progressive Christians do not think that way.
The best thing Darwin did was to include Man in the natural world as he saw it.
Remaining issues:
Was there a prime mover?

Prime mover is a contradiction in terms.
Is evolution teleological?

Only backwards, not forwards. Results driven, not goal oriented.
Is Man a part of Nature?

Duh. Everything real is.
Is there anything that is supernatural?

If you do not find "no" satisfatory, then maybe you should try to justify this extrordinaty claim?
The easiest answers are yes and no. What is needed is the why or why not.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:20 pm

Arc,
Whatever leads to crimes against humanity is not of God. God is love.
Of course you can feel wonder and awe in the presence of Nature and not call it a God experience as I do. What's in a name? The experience is what matters; and i still believe anyone can have it. Usually it is an experience known by those whose psyches are not dominated by ego. You have to be open to it.
What's important to me about this experience is that it underscores my belonging to, or inclusion in, all that is.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:28 pm

Sculptor,
Your answers to the issues can no more be proved than mine can.
You still seem to believe that science can explain the reality of all things human. Hence you believe Darwin's theory can never be improved on.
And no, there is no supernatural because God is natural, the whole of Nature, the ground of our being.
God is the logos that binds all things together.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:06 pm

felix dakat wrote:You can't force yourself to believe something you don't.



This is true. You cannot. It is exactly what I tried to do over and over again when I was going through my...how ought I to call it...my dark night of the soul...questioning the existence of God. lol

One tries to rationalize and rationalize in order to cement one's old truth back into one's mind and heart but all it tends to do is create more agony at having lost or being in the process of losing something which held such value and meaning in one's life for most of their life.

The only real thing that I found to help is to simply have the courage to try to just let it all go, all of the thoughts, all of the questioning and doubts and just know that one can survive it - simply by "being".

It takes a lot of will to give up something or someone that you love in order to be able to love yourself more in the right way. Then you simply give up the will also and say "the hell with it all". ..in a healthy way. :oops:
BE MELTING SNOW. WASH YOURSELF OF YOURSELF.

YOU WANDER FROM ROOM TO ROOM
HUNTING FOR THE DIAMOND NECKLACE
THAT IS ALREADY AROUND YOUR NECK!

DANCE UNTIL YOU SHATTER YOURSELF!

THERE IS A VOICE THAT DOESN'T USE WORDS. LISTEN!

LIFE IS A BALANCE BETWEEN HOLDING ON AND LETTING GO!

LET SILENCE TAKE YOU TO THE CORE OF LIFE!
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:42 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
felix dakat wrote:You can't force yourself to believe something you don't.



This is true. You cannot. It is exactly what I tried to do over and over again when I was going through my...how ought I to call it...my dark night of the soul...questioning the existence of God. lol

One tries to rationalize and rationalize in order to cement one's old truth back into one's mind and heart but all it tends to do is create more agony at having lost or being in the process of losing something which held such value and meaning in one's life for most of their life.

The only real thing that I found to help is to simply have the courage to try to just let it all go, all of the thoughts, all of the questioning and doubts and just know that one can survive it - simply by "being".

It takes a lot of will to give up something or someone that you love in order to be able to love yourself more in the right way. Then you simply give up the will also and say "the hell with it all". ..in a healthy way. :oops:

Thanks for your honesty. Although your post was meant for Felix, it says much to me also. I grew into a belief in a universal God and do not lament my past years in fundamentalism. Although I have brief nostalgic moments remembering the little church I grew up in, I have moved on to more inclusive=of myself and of others--thoughts on religion. Much reading helped my thoughts to mature.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:15 pm

Sculptor wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Sculpture seems to think that any kind of religious faith is absurd.


ALL types of Faith are useless.
Faith is the death of reason. The taking for truth what you cannot know to be true.
And all you think it is usefull are absurd people.


I know that this was directed at felix dakat but...


lol You really want to throw the baby out with the dirty bathwater, don't you? You did say ALL types of faith. Is that what faith is really about? ALL faith? What about the scientists? Do they not need a certain amount of faith in order to continue with their experiments, their theories? If they had no faith, what would be accomplished? Why would they bother going on, continuing with what is important to them? Why would anyone even bother getting up in the morning without faith?

What is the definition of faith? Hope in that which cannot be seen because of that which can be seen. I may be kind of paraphrasing here.


I may be wrong here but perhaps with your use of the word Faith you meant to say religion? Even that kind of faith may not be useless. There are many people in this world who have great faith (not fanatics) and they do a lot of good in this world.
Is accomplishing good things in the name of humanity or others" useless"? Simply because one does not believe in God, One cannot reasonably turn around and say that faith is useless.

It all depends on what an individual DOES with that faith. I think that for most intelligent reasonable believers, if you dig way down there, you will see that their faith is not based on certainty but hope. Let us say though for arguments sake, that it is based on some degree of certainly within their minds, can their faith STILL not be useful towards humanity if they are loving, useful people?

Faith is the death of reason.


ONLY if that faith is not guided by reason. So what would be the real culprit there? Faith or the human mind which would be abusing it and not seeing it for what it is?

The taking for truth what you cannot know to be true


Is this the way that most scientists' brains operate? Scientists are suppose to be logical right? Are they all absurd to have faith in the way their experiments are going?
BE MELTING SNOW. WASH YOURSELF OF YOURSELF.

YOU WANDER FROM ROOM TO ROOM
HUNTING FOR THE DIAMOND NECKLACE
THAT IS ALREADY AROUND YOUR NECK!

DANCE UNTIL YOU SHATTER YOURSELF!

THERE IS A VOICE THAT DOESN'T USE WORDS. LISTEN!

LIFE IS A BALANCE BETWEEN HOLDING ON AND LETTING GO!

LET SILENCE TAKE YOU TO THE CORE OF LIFE!
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:28 pm

-
:lol:
Sculptor has absolute faith that "ALL faith is useless" - because "it is the death of reason". :lol:

Of course that given void of all reason. :lol:
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby felix dakat » Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:34 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
felix dakat wrote:You can't force yourself to believe something you don't.



This is true. You cannot. It is exactly what I tried to do over and over again when I was going through my...how ought I to call it...my dark night of the soul...questioning the existence of God. lol

One tries to rationalize and rationalize in order to cement one's old truth back into one's mind and heart but all it tends to do is create more agony at having lost or being in the process of losing something which held such value and meaning in one's life for most of their life.

The only real thing that I found to help is to simply have the courage to try to just let it all go, all of the thoughts, all of the questioning and doubts and just know that one can survive it - simply by "being".

It takes a lot of will to give up something or someone that you love in order to be able to love yourself more in the right way. Then you simply give up the will also and say "the hell with it all". ..in a healthy way. :oops:


Thank you for your post. Your journey seems like a familiar pattern to me. That is, I've heard a lot of stories like yours. I'm curious to know what your particular theological orientation was such that when you could no longer believe in that model, you felt that the only alternative was to give up theism in any sense of the word. I myself have given it up too in the sense of God as a being with a bunch of omni attributes.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:14 am

felix dakat wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:
felix dakat wrote:You can't force yourself to believe something you don't.



This is true. You cannot. It is exactly what I tried to do over and over again when I was going through my...how ought I to call it...my dark night of the soul...questioning the existence of God. lol

One tries to rationalize and rationalize in order to cement one's old truth back into one's mind and heart but all it tends to do is create more agony at having lost or being in the process of losing something which held such value and meaning in one's life for most of their life.

The only real thing that I found to help is to simply have the courage to try to just let it all go, all of the thoughts, all of the questioning and doubts and just know that one can survive it - simply by "being".

It takes a lot of will to give up something or someone that you love in order to be able to love yourself more in the right way. Then you simply give up the will also and say "the hell with it all". ..in a healthy way. :oops:


Thank you for your post. Your journey seems like a familiar pattern to me. That is, I've heard a lot of stories like yours. I'm curious to know what your particular theological orientation was such that when you could no longer believe in that model, you felt that the only alternative was to give up theism in any sense of the word. I myself have given it up too in the sense of God as a being with a bunch of omni attributes.


So how do you characterise your god?
It seems to me that the stardard pan-omni being is actually a contradiction. But rejecting the "bunch of omni attributes" means one of two things; [b]one[/b] is the bemused conclusion of Epicurus when he said
“Is god is willing to prevent evil but not able then he is not omnipotent;
Is he is able but not willing, then he is malevolent;
Is god both able and willing, then whence comes evil?
Is he his neither willing nor able then why call him god?”
The second thing would have to be that there is only nature.
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