What it does is what it Is

Half-formed posts, inchoate philosophies, and the germs of deep thought.

Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:05 pm

All of religion should not bear the brunt of your accurate attacks. The literalistic majority does not represent the whole state of religion; to claim it does and and thereby condemn it all is to throw out the baby with the bathwater. This is where Dawkins erred in The God Delusion--he takes the part to stand for the whole. Stating that the problems of the Earth are all caused by religion is to neglect the evolving of more humane religious approaches. The internet is full of the latter also.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:17 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Aventador wrote:
Sculptor wrote:I always feel strongly


Yes, I see that, but you have to learn to temper your feelings if you wish to attain any level of intellectual proficiency.


What you do not understand is that passion and intelligence go hand in hand.
Without passion you are dull and passive, learning nothing.
Passion gets you up in the morning and gets you out there on the expedition.
So get out of bed and find something out!


Beautiful words to live by, sculptor. :wink:

So get out of bed and find something out!


Those words can really whet one's passionate sense of adventure.


I will clamber through the clouds and exist!
Keats
BE MELTING SNOW. WASH YOURSELF OF YOURSELF.

YOU WANDER FROM ROOM TO ROOM
HUNTING FOR THE DIAMOND NECKLACE
THAT IS ALREADY AROUND YOUR NECK!

DANCE UNTIL YOU SHATTER YOURSELF!

THERE IS A VOICE THAT DOESN'T USE WORDS. LISTEN!

LIFE IS A BALANCE BETWEEN HOLDING ON AND LETTING GO!

LET SILENCE TAKE YOU TO THE CORE OF LIFE!
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:54 pm

Ierrellus wrote:All of religion should not bear the brunt of your accurate attacks. The literalistic majority does not represent the whole state of religion; to claim it does and and thereby condemn it all is to throw out the baby with the bathwater. This is where Dawkins erred in The God Delusion--he takes the part to stand for the whole. Stating that the problems of the Earth are all caused by religion is to neglect the evolving of more humane religious approaches. The internet is full of the latter also.


Seriously?
Look around you!
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:55 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
Sculptor wrote:
Aventador wrote:
Yes, I see that, but you have to learn to temper your feelings if you wish to attain any level of intellectual proficiency.


What you do not understand is that passion and intelligence go hand in hand.
Without passion you are dull and passive, learning nothing.
Passion gets you up in the morning and gets you out there on the expedition.
So get out of bed and find something out!


Beautiful words to live by, sculptor. :wink:

So get out of bed and find something out!


Those words can really whet one's passionate sense of adventure.


I will clamber through the clouds and exist!
Keats


Thanks.
But its not a manifesto - more like a statement of reality.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:18 pm

Welcome back, Arcturus. Where have you been for so long? Can you relate to this thread?
Sculptor,
I do look around; and I don't necessarily see what you see. We look in different places but ultimately see what we already believe. Neither of us is here to convert the other. And neither one of us is stupid for not believing as the other does. Consequently, since your mind is made up, I can wonder what you hope to accomplish by being here. It should be a waste of your time.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:14 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Welcome back, Arcturus. Where have you been for so long? Can you relate to this thread?
Sculptor,
I do look around; and I don't necessarily see what you see. We look in different places but ultimately see what we already believe.

Speak for yourself.
I accept things that are provable and demonstrable.
You prefer to beleive whatever you like.
But as Carl Sagan says; "“Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value the may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder.”
Don't tar me with the same brush that you paint yourself.

Neither of us is here to convert the other. And neither one of us is stupid for not believing as the other does. Consequently, since your mind is made up, I can wonder what you hope to accomplish by being here. It should be a waste of your time.


If this is a problem for me, then how much more is it a problem for you.
And let's face it there are more persons here than you and myslef.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:08 pm

Since you arrived in this thread, Sculptor, the majority of posts are yours, not those of others.
It's possible that you frighten them away.
You disagree with every proposition I suggest.
These are based on first hand experience.
Sagan was not privy to these arguments.
Why are you wasting your time here?
Were you "'born to set it straight"? (Hamlet)--
According to the scientific method?
It is confined to its own set of unprovable beliefs about the deep, existential experiences of human beings.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:16 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Since you arrived in this thread, Sculptor, the majority of posts are yours, not those of others.

What a weird thing to say. ALL of my posts are mine, as yours are yours.
It's possible that you frighten them away.

Frighten posts??
Are you confused?
You disagree with every proposition I suggest.

That's very funny since I have been trying to get you to make one. You seem resistent to make any statement, perhaps, lest you find you do not have the wit to support it??
These are based on first hand experience.

You are not the only person I post to.
Sagan was not privy to these arguments.

Sagan was way ahead of you or me.
If you were to pay more attention to the world of philosophy and science you might learn something. You might learn that you can't simply respond with "note to nature" and pretend it is a worthy or meaningful response.
Why are you wasting your time here?

I'm not - I enjoy it.
I always try to do my best to answer all posts to me honestly
Were you "'born to set it straight"? (Hamlet)--
According to the scientific method?
It is confined to its own set of unprovable beliefs about the deep, existential experiences of human beings.

Science works, you are idle.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:23 pm

Natural religion persists through time and change. Were it not relevant for humans, it would already be extinct.
From natural religion come the mental expressions, explanations of physical events, known as theology.
These abstractions suggest something tangible as their source.
Of course the abstractions cannot be proved by the methods of scientific or philosophical debate.
Yet their presence suggests real sources.
These sources are experiential.
The main source of natural religions is the experience of evolution.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:32 pm

Science has not yet understood consciousness. How can it comment on the reality of personal experience?
From concrete to abstract--evolution, natural religion, theological abstractions.
Science and philosophy are bound up in debates about the abstract ends of concrete beginnings.
Back to the Op.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:54 pm

Ierrellus wrote:1.Genetic evolution is deterministic and creative.
2. The experience of genetic evolution translates into myth.
3. A prevalent myth from experience of genetic evolution is the existence of God.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:23 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Science has not yet understood consciousness. How can it comment on the reality of personal experience?
From concrete to abstract--evolution, natural religion, theological abstractions.
Science and philosophy are bound up in debates about the abstract ends of concrete beginnings.
Back to the Op.

Why would you think this is relevant?
Science is the only discipline that has come close to unpacking the basis of experience and consciousness.
Being conscious does not provide insights. It's like pretending that watching TV gives you the inside dope on how they work.

And just because science does not have all the facts and answers, does not mean you are qualified to make up your own.
Last edited by Sculptor on Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:28 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:1.Genetic evolution is deterministic and creative.
2. The experience of genetic evolution translates into myth.
3. A prevalent myth from experience of genetic evolution is the existence of God.


Empty statements.
What is meant by "creative"?
2 seems meaningless. You might want to unpack that.
3 god is not a myth of evolution. It predated any concept of evolution.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:37 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Science has not yet understood consciousness. How can it comment on the reality of personal experience?
From concrete to abstract--evolution, natural religion, theological abstractions.
Science and philosophy are bound up in debates about the abstract ends of concrete beginnings.
Back to the Op.

Why would you think this is relevant?

The Op is about experiential reality as somewhat different from what science can define or philosophy can verify. . I think I explained why this is so in the idea that science as method and philosophy as arbiter of truth scrutinize abstractions and are unable to fathom the sources of these.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:47 pm

creative=produces new forms of beings. See Julian Huxley's "Evolutionary Humanism."
Evolution predates Darwin. All experience it.
The idea of God came from primitive Man's interactions with Nature. The idea evolved as humans evolved.
Where else could myth come from other than the deep inner resources of consciousness?
Would you say these resources could not emerge in consciousness as a belief in God?
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:00 pm

Ierrellus wrote:creative=produces new forms of beings. See Julian Huxley's "Evolutionary Humanism."

Creative usually implies a creator. An artist creates a picture; and artisan creates a window. It is an abuse of lanaguage to pretend that nature is consciously creating.
Maybe you could say that an artist is simply determined to paint, but an artist has the ability ABSENT IN NATURE to refelct and respond. Evolution does not do that.
That is why the word creative is not appropriate, outside conscious animals mainly humans
And for sure evolution does not move in this way.
Evolution predates Darwin All experience it.
Where else could myth come from other than the deep inner resources of consciousness?
Would you say these resources could not emerge in consciousness as a belief in God?


Are you deliberately doing this obfuscating?
All myths predate Darwin. Consciousness predates myths, and evolution predates consciousness.
Evolution predates God.
ANd no one experiences evolution in the conventional sense. We all die with the same genome we were born with.

How about this a prevalent myth about Turtles holding up the universe energes from human invention; so does Mars Bars - so what?

And as for your friend Eugenicist Huxley he said; " "The ordinary man, or at least the ordinary poet, philosopher and theologian, always was anxious to find purpose in the evolutionary process. I believe this reasoning to be totally false."
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:11 pm

Then why did Sir Julian waste his time proposing a natural religion?
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:24 pm

Once again, Sculptor, what are you doing here? You have added nothing to the thread but your disclaimers. which betray a severely limited point of view. I'm sorry if I provided here such fertile ground for your attacks on religion. If only you could mirror Einstein's views about God, then you and I would be close to an understanding of each other. As it is, it's like a he said/she said fruitless argument. Do I have to have this thread locked to be rid of you? I'm about ready to give it up.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:40 pm

If anyone is interested--
God predates evolution--the Prime Mover.
Evolution produced consciousness in organisms with brains.
Worship of some form of deity is as old as human consciousness.
Within human consciousness the idea of God evolved from belief in many gods (Aspects of Nature), to human type gods (Greek & Roman), to a single, paternal god and to God as the condition of all Being.
Humans have been allowed to see God in their own time and space as that which is within us and outside us, as that which designed us to evolve into further understanding..
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:12 pm

Ierrellus wrote:If anyone is interested--
God predates evolution--the Prime Mover.

Wrong. There was no god until recently. Evolution goes back billions of years.
Evolution produced consciousness in organisms with brains.
Worship of some form of deity is as old as human consciousness.

Depends how you define "human". And were you to accept a scientific definition you would simply not be in any kind of position to make that statement.
It is unlikley that homo erectus would worship a god.

Within human consciousness the idea of God evolved from belief in many gods (Aspects of Nature), to human type gods (Greek & Roman), to a single, paternal god and to God as the condition of all Being.

If you accept that then you are contradicting your own statement that "god predates evolution".
Humans have been allowed to see God in their own time and space as that which is within us and outside us, as that which designed us to evolve into further understanding..


Who or what is "allowing"?
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:15 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Once again, Sculptor, what are you doing here? You have added nothing to the thread but your disclaimers. which betray a severely limited point of view. I'm sorry if I provided here such fertile ground for your attacks on religion. If only you could mirror Einstein's views about God, then you and I would be close to an understanding of each other. As it is, it's like a he said/she said fruitless argument. Do I have to have this thread locked to be rid of you? I'm about ready to give it up.

What the fuck are you doing here.
This is PHILOSOPHY.
Why don't you bugger off and find a nice religious Forum where you can blab on and on and on about the nonsense you spout?

I accept Einstein's view of god, which you clearly have no the slightest idea about. Einstein was an atheist
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:16 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Then why did Sir Julian waste his time proposing a natural religion?


Because he was an ATHEIST.
Please do your research.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:06 pm

Ierrellus

Welcome back, Arcturus. Where have you been for so long? Can you relate to this thread?


Thank you for that warm welcome, Ierrellus.
As for where I have been, I am still trying to figure all of that out. It just may take the rest of my life. But to use sculptor's word, I love an expedition.
Sometimes it takes a pandemic to discover who we really are and who we really were not.

Can you relate to this thread?


If you were to summarize it into one paragraph, what would you say?

What it does is what it Is


Is that necessarily true?
BE MELTING SNOW. WASH YOURSELF OF YOURSELF.

YOU WANDER FROM ROOM TO ROOM
HUNTING FOR THE DIAMOND NECKLACE
THAT IS ALREADY AROUND YOUR NECK!

DANCE UNTIL YOU SHATTER YOURSELF!

THERE IS A VOICE THAT DOESN'T USE WORDS. LISTEN!

LIFE IS A BALANCE BETWEEN HOLDING ON AND LETTING GO!

LET SILENCE TAKE YOU TO THE CORE OF LIFE!
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby encode_decode » Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:33 pm

.

Arcturus Descending wrote:
What it does is what it Is


Is that necessarily true?

Yes, but clearly that depends on what "it" is.

.
I will build a nerdlike structure in 2021
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:57 pm

encode_decode wrote:.

Arcturus Descending wrote:
What it does is what it Is


Is that necessarily true?

Yes, but clearly that depends on what "it" is.

.


Let's put this to the test...

That is a block of concrete..
What does it do
Nothing.

Oh?
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