What it does is what it Is

Half-formed posts, inchoate philosophies, and the germs of deep thought.

Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:48 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Can we get over Darwin and discuss possible reasons for evolutionary change.?

Try !
We will not persuade naysayers that Darwinism contains revisions.

That's because evolutionary theory preserves what Darwin said, because it is right. What ET does is refine Darwin,

Does no one here believe God did it from inside and outside us?

Absurd
What do we owe to our environment and why?

Nature does not have debts.
Is devolution a possibility?

All change is evolution. It can be from the complex to the more simple or vice versa. Bacteria and viruses are continually evolving. They represent the most common of all organisms.
Are we our brother's keeper?

:lol:
Have we evolved enough to know the answers to these important questions?

Evolution is not necessary progess. It is all about fitness. Selection does not always mandate more intelligence.
You really do not understand what is going on.
The Auden quote from "Sept. 1939" has never been more appropriate than it is in 2021.

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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:22 pm

If each organism is an integral part of an ecological biosphere, it behooves those organisms with brains to be actively concerned with climate change, over-human population and toxic waste. Of course not all creatures with brains are responsible for our present condition. Humans are because "To whom much is given, much is required." We must see the planet as our home, not as raw materials for exploitation. Our destiny is certainly not to evolve into our own cause of death and destruction. Belief in God holds us responsible for what we do to each other and the planet. The selfishness of me-ism must be overcome.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:32 pm

Sculptor wrote:His task was to overcome thousands of years of ignorance and stupidity.


I guess he missed a spot with you, then.

Hey Dan~, where are you now?
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:39 pm

What type of belief supports hope for the continued renewal of the Earth? Me-ism as owed to Martin Luther and the enlightenment has produced modern conveniences and scientific breakthroughs with the side effects of waste and exploitation. Me-ism neglects the fact that we are all in this together and, as Aldous Huxley noted, hubris causes nemesis. What is the price we must pay for getting the goods? Our collective demise?
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:53 pm

Aventador wrote:
Sculptor wrote:His task was to overcome thousands of years of ignorance and stupidity.


I guess he missed a spot with you, then.

Not at all.
I've read much of his work. I think you are going to have to do a much better job if you think you can challenge his work.
:lol:
The ignorant still exist. That would be you. Until you open an book you shall remain so.
I suggest you start with Origin of Species.
I'l not be holding my breath. But the sooner you start the less ignorant you will be.

http://darwin-online.org.uk
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:58 pm

Ierrellus wrote:If each organism is an integral part of an ecological biosphere, it behooves those organisms with brains to be actively concerned with climate change, over-human population and toxic waste.

True. But we are not are we?
Of course not all creatures with brains are responsible for our present condition. Humans are because "To whom much is given, much is required."

That is not a recognisable phrase in science or evolution.
Cetaceans are at least as intelligent has humans, probably far more so. They have been given much more, yet seem to require so much less.
We must see the planet as our home, not as raw materials for exploitation. Our destiny is certainly not to evolve into our own cause of death and destruction. Belief in God holds us responsible for what we do to each other and the planet. The selfishness of me-ism must be overcome.


Belief in God is one of the worst things for the destruction of the planet.
In fact it all went wrong at about the same time as the advent of the monotheistic religions with the promise of heaven.
Why would anyone care about the beasts of man's dominion when they are promised a heavenly reward wnd now for sure that God intends to destoy everything himself as he did at the time of Noah?

The only hope for humans is the rejection of religion.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:48 pm

Well, I mean, considering you have not said one single thing about evolution on this thread, chances are you are just as dumb as you sound.

And that Darwin is just a political figure for you.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:19 pm

The Nietzschean view of religious people neglecting the Earth in favor of some afterlife heaven is outdated. I used the Zarathustra quote to emphasize popular religious beliefs, not noting the evolution of Christianity in that use. Progressive Christians are paying attention to the woes of the planet and are acting positively in its favor. Many Christians nowadays do not believe in afterlife heaven or hell. If Christianity can evolve, why can't ideas of Darwinian evolution?
If we are stuck with 19th century Darwinism, biological science has not progressed much since then.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:28 pm

Aventador wrote:Well, I mean, considering you have not said one single thing about evolution on this thread, chances are you are just as dumb as you sound.

And that Darwin is just a political figure for you.

I think for him Darwin signifies a personal agenda enforced by arrogance and hubris. The agenda does not have to be right; it simply has to be insulting and loud. He debates like a high school sophomore. But I should not answer ad homs with ad homs. It's a waste of time and space. But his style of debate invokes childish reaction. I've said enough.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:47 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Aventador wrote:Well, I mean, considering you have not said one single thing about evolution on this thread, chances are you are just as dumb as you sound.

And that Darwin is just a political figure for you.

I think for him Darwin signifies a personal agenda enforced by arrogance and hubris. The agenda does not have to be right; it simply has to be insulting and loud. He debates like a high school sophomore. But I should not answer ad homs with ad homs. It's a waste of time and space. But his style of debate invokes childish reaction. I've said enough.


You two can run away together with your fantasy.
But until you have studied the subhject as I have you are just autoeroticising each other.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:51 pm

Ierrellus wrote:The Nietzschean view of religious people neglecting the Earth in favor of some afterlife heaven is outdated.

No it is not. It is in full swing, and had accelerted.
I used the Zarathustra quote to emphasize popular religious beliefs, not noting the evolution of Christianity in that use. Progressive Christians are paying attention to the woes of the planet and are acting positively in its favor. Many Christians nowadays do not believe in afterlife heaven or hell. If Christianity can evolve, why can't ideas of Darwinian evolution?
If we are stuck with 19th century Darwinism, biological science has not progressed much since then.


A religion that evolves denies the truth of its own establishment.
One day god is immutable, the next - meh! not so much. God was just wrong in the past, and now magically he has come round to our way of thinking, and everything is okay.
This is a joke surely??
If we are stuck with 19th century Darwinism, biological science has not progressed much since then.

Funny guy.
One day you attack it for being out of date the next you attack it for not growing.
You can't have it both ways.
The fact is that Darwin's ideas have been buily upon. They predicted genetics, and genetics is one such massive realm of science that is due to the work that he did.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:52 pm

Aventador wrote:Well, I mean, considering you have not said one single thing about evolution on this thread, chances are you are just as dumb as you sound.

And that Darwin is just a political figure for you.

I've said plenty. But pearls before swine is wasted.
If you want a serious discussion you'll just have to learn something about the subject.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:10 pm

"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:17 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Aventador wrote:Well, I mean, considering you have not said one single thing about evolution on this thread, chances are you are just as dumb as you sound.

And that Darwin is just a political figure for you.

I've said plenty. But pearls before swine is wasted.
If you want a serious discussion you'll just have to learn something about the subject.

That goes for you, too.
If you are privy to so much factual evidence, why do you present yourself so poorly?
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:48 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Sculptor wrote:
Aventador wrote:Well, I mean, considering you have not said one single thing about evolution on this thread, chances are you are just as dumb as you sound.

And that Darwin is just a political figure for you.

I've said plenty. But pearls before swine is wasted.
If you want a serious discussion you'll just have to learn something about the subject.

That goes for you, too.
If you are privy to so much factual evidence, why do you present yourself so poorly?


Okay. Rewind. What's on your mind?
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:49 pm

Ierrellus wrote:https://progressivechristianity.org/the-8-points/


Heretics to some..
A religion that evolves denies the truth of its own establishment.
One day god is immutable, the next - meh! not so much. God was just wrong in the past, and now magically he has come round to our way of thinking, and everything is okay.

This is what it is all about..
image_2021-06-23_135111.png
image_2021-06-23_135111.png (26.57 KiB) Viewed 72 times
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby promethean75 » Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:18 pm

"The Nietzschean view of religious people neglecting the Earth in favor of some afterlife heaven is outdated."

"Progressive Christians are paying attention to the woes of the planet and are acting positively in its favor."

There is only one 'woe' that the erf and the people of it are facing. Well there's two. One is an extraterrestrial threat (meteor, radiation blasts, etc), and the other is the capitalist.

Now N was right but the significance of his point was made far better by Feuerbach, Marx, Engels, and other left-wing atheists of the day. In order to understand the significance, you have to first understand that capitalism is the only real danger (aside from shit coming from space).

The great significance is this: religious beliefs create pacifism and impotence in the working class because (as N began to point out) they devalue the immediacy of their real problems by hoping for a life in heaven or wherever.

Now, it may be that 'progressive christians' hold socialistic ideals and want to work toward achieving them. However, that would be done much faster and much more efficiently by disposing of religion altogether. And you don't have to put any of your hard earned money in a plate to pay for some evangelist's new BMW.

Think of the christians as the retarded little helpers of the workers in their movement toward emancipation from capitalism.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:29 pm

promethean75 wrote:"The Nietzschean view of religious people neglecting the Earth in favor of some afterlife heaven is outdated."


The Pope stull sits on his hands on big issues of contraception and abortion, when population pressure in Catholic countries is bursting.

"Progressive Christians are paying attention to the woes of the planet and are acting positively in its favor."

This frnge group finds that easy to say, but what are they actually doing?


There is only one 'woe' that the erf and the people of it are facing. Well there's two. One is an extraterrestrial threat (meteor, radiation blasts, etc), and the other is the capitalist.

Donations accepted

Now N was right but the significance of his point was made far better by Feuerbach, Marx, Engels, and other left-wing atheists of the day. In order to understand the significance, you have to first understand that capitalism is the only real danger (aside from shit coming from space).

The great significance is this: religious beliefs create pacifism and impotence in the working class because (as N began to point out) they devalue the immediacy of their real problems by hoping for a life in heaven or wherever.

It's worse than that.
The big three promise a future reward and the destruction of the current earth, whilst peaching dominion over the beasts of the field and the wild.


Now, it may be that 'progressive christians' hold socialistic ideals and want to work toward achieving them. However, that would be done much faster and much more efficiently by disposing of religion altogether. And you don't have to put any of your hard earned money in a plate to pay for some evangelist's new BMW.

Think of the christians as the retarded little helpers of the workers in their movement toward emancipation from capitalism.

Indeed
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:54 pm

promethean75 wrote:"The Nietzschean view of religious people neglecting the Earth in favor of some afterlife heaven is outdated."

"Progressive Christians are paying attention to the woes of the planet and are acting positively in its favor."

There is only one 'woe' that the erf and the people of it are facing. Well there's two. One is an extraterrestrial threat (meteor, radiation blasts, etc), and the other is the capitalist.

Now N was right but the significance of his point was made far better by Feuerbach, Marx, Engels, and other left-wing atheists of the day. In order to understand the significance, you have to first understand that capitalism is the only real danger (aside from shit coming from space).

The great significance is this: religious beliefs create pacifism and impotence in the working class because (as N began to point out) they devalue the immediacy of their real problems by hoping for a life in heaven or wherever.

Now, it may be that 'progressive christians' hold socialistic ideals and want to work toward achieving them. However, that would be done much faster and much more efficiently by disposing of religion altogether. And you don't have to put any of your hard earned money in a plate to pay for some evangelist's new BMW.

Think of the christians as the retarded little helpers of the workers in their movement toward emancipation from capitalism.

Thank you for your post.
Religion wedded to capitalism has supported, in its lust for lucre, genocide of indigenous people, slavery, child labor and wholesale exploitation of Nature.
I support a religion that embraces democratic socialism.
In the possible fates of the planet that you mention, most of the world's religions are not culpable. The religion that is culpable for atrocities to man and nature is the KJ literalist variety. That variety would be unrecognizable to the early church fathers.
Religion itself will not become extinct; it is "bred in the bone". The best we can hope for is that it can evolve to include something like the 8 tenets of progressive Christianity.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:22 pm

What Dawkins failed to consider--blaming religious fundies for the world's ills will not fix things.
He would not rail against capitalism; it sells books.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:21 am

Ierrellus wrote:What Dawkins failed to consider--blaming religious fundies for the world's ills will not fix things.
He would not rail against capitalism; it sells books.


He's not Jesus, so he can't do everything.
What he is worried about is the rise in religious fundementalism which is antithetical to common sense, and deomcratic socialism. What do you expect after 9/11?

If you get Netflix, please watch the episode about Richard Scrushy in Trial by Media, where a captialist fraudster manipulated the jury using black religious fundementalism.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:15 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:What Dawkins failed to consider--blaming religious fundies for the world's ills will not fix things.
He would not rail against capitalism; it sells books.


He's not Jesus, so he can't do everything.
What he is worried about is the rise in religious fundementalism which is antithetical to common sense, and deomcratic socialism. What do you expect after 9/11?

If you get Netflix, please watch the episode about Richard Scrushy in Trial by Media, where a captialist fraudster manipulated the jury using black religious fundementalism.

I don't get Netflix, but thanks for recommending. I still think Dawkins is wasting his talents.
The internet is flooded with "fringe" Christian ideas. Since that is what I look for, I don't see any rise in rabid fundamentalism. Maybe the fundies don't use thee internet One could hope. .
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:25 pm

Ierrellus wrote: Since that is what I look for, I don't see any rise in rabid fundamentalism. Maybe the fundies don't use thee internet One could hope. .


The rise in religious fundementalism since the 1970s is much talked about.
Google it and you will be drowned in an avalanch of articles.
9/11 is one aspect of, Israel another, and each of these have their reactions elsewhere.

Generally the tendancy is incipient whilst any kind of religion exists, since the scriptures throughout the 3 messianic religions are so ambiguous as to allow a range of interpretations, and when they are read to the letter are dangerous in the extreme.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:32 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote: Since that is what I look for, I don't see any rise in rabid fundamentalism. Maybe the fundies don't use thee internet One could hope. .


The rise in religious fundementalism since the 1970s is much talked about.
Google it and you will be drowned in an avalanch of articles.
9/11 is one aspect of, Israel another, and each of these have their reactions elsewhere.

Generally the tendancy is incipient whilst any kind of religion exists, since the scriptures throughout the 3 messianic religions are so ambiguous as to allow a range of interpretations, and when they are read to the letter are dangerous in the extreme.

Googled it. It is as you say.
Evangelicals owe much to Augustine who first wrote about original sin and eternal punishment. The early church fathers expressed no such ideas. Modern fundamentalism, heir to Augustine, Milton, and the church councils, gives a distortion of Christianity . It is the distortion that has allowed centuries of "man's inhumanity to man".
On the other hand much religious art and writing are beautiful. So are its examples of charity.
The Crusades caused 9/11. War against Iraq was just a reminder.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:11 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote: Since that is what I look for, I don't see any rise in rabid fundamentalism. Maybe the fundies don't use thee internet One could hope. .


The rise in religious fundementalism since the 1970s is much talked about.
Google it and you will be drowned in an avalanch of articles.
9/11 is one aspect of, Israel another, and each of these have their reactions elsewhere.

Generally the tendancy is incipient whilst any kind of religion exists, since the scriptures throughout the 3 messianic religions are so ambiguous as to allow a range of interpretations, and when they are read to the letter are dangerous in the extreme.

Googled it. It is as you say.
Evangelicals owe much to Augustine who first wrote about original sin and eternal punishment. The early church fathers expressed no such ideas. Modern fundamentalism, heir to Augustine, Milton, and the church councils, gives a distortion of Christianity . It is the distortion that has allowed centuries of "man's inhumanity to man".
On the other hand much religious art and writing are beautiful. So are its examples of charity.
The Crusades caused 9/11. War against Iraq was just a reminder.


It's only a "distortion" because you don't like it. But it's all laid out there in the Bible, the Koran and The OT for anyone to obey and follow. And with each new generation the ugly fae of religion remerges.
This "distortion" is the literal message of the scripture.
Are these books to be a guide? If not where is your guide? ANd do not say divine inspiration, because they ALL say that.
You do not need religion for art. In any event these things fly AGAINST the words of God. The procription against graven images is a matter of cannon to Islam, even if it is widely ignored by Jews and Christians.
The est art has no reference to religion, being free of its clutches.
Many things were the cause of 9/11. The arrogant establishment of Israel whereby Balfour with the stroke of his Christian fountain pen condemned the region of Palestine to a thousand years of turmoil and hatred. Religion is at the heart of that particular version of apartheid. The fact that the christian/Jewish alliance have been conspiring over the entire Arab world to manipulate and control events, draw boundaries, and design conflict might also have something to do with it. The Crusades were just the start.
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