What it does is what it Is

Half-formed posts, inchoate philosophies, and the germs of deep thought.

Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Vittorio » Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:12 pm

Sculptor wrote:Every person who went to University was forced to take orders.
That does not make a person a christian.


I will attempt to pierce through this obviously garbled message, and attempt to understand what you wrote.

You are saying Darwin was ordered to be Christian in University? That he was ordered to do so, against his own beliefs, and accepted? For the simple reason that "one is ordered to do many things in university?"

I am sure I have this wrong.

If I have it right, leaving behind the many important issues it raises, it does not explain why Darwin continued to be an observing Christian throughout the entirety of his life. Do you, rather, have any particular reason, some letter or declaration recorded anywhere, to believe that he was not a Christian? Considering how definitive your statement was, you must have many.

Sculptor wrote:and he refused ever to enter a church.


Many Christians have a similar experience. In any case, it would seem to be anger with God, rather than any lack of belief, that drove him from church. But these are speculations, we will wait for the letters you mentioned.

Sculptor wrote:Read his autobiography where he makes this clear.


Yes, we will wait for your quote. Obviously it must be extremely definitive as, according to you,

Sculptor wrote:He fully and utterly rejected god and religion.


Sculptor wrote:I did not say this.


My apologies good sir, but you did write it. It is there in the record. Are you feeling alright?

Sculptor wrote:Duh fucking Duh. Evolution is not DESIGNED FFS. :lol:


You seem to gravely misunderstand what science is. To a much graver degree than I originally believed.

Or will you tell us next that God Himself came down from heaven and gave Darwin his book in the form of tablets?

Sculptor wrote:I am, as usual, way a head of you. Darwin with Wallace described and discovered the Theory of Natural Selction. Other theories pre-existed Darwin, most notably Larmark's, Darwin's own grandfather Erasmus also did work on the topic.


Yes, this is good. An oft overlooked fact. I was hoping that mistake was what accounted for your religious attachment to Darwin, because perhaps you saw him as having invented a scientific theory which stood simply against mythological descriptions of the origins of things. But I suppose some less redeeming reason will have to be found.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Vittorio » Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:14 pm

Sculptor wrote:Rubbish.
I was offering your rational and well considered posts, and you started with the derision.


Yes, of course, clear for all to see.

The interesting question would be whether you actually believe this, young man, with your foul manners.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Vittorio » Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:16 pm

Sculptor wrote:And where is god in the death of an innocent young girl?
Nowhere!


Indeed, this is the reason most people actually purport to be atheistic. Not any actual kind of lack of belief based on science or philosophy, but anger at the actions of what is perceived to be God.

As if God being unjust or hurtful of your feelings would disprove his existence. It obviously would not.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Vittorio » Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:17 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Einstein believed in God.

False.
His god was Spinoza's god. Not a person, or personality. careless, a logic of nature. not a deitiy.


So because his interpretation of God was not the same of yours, he did not say God, and not believe in him?

Young man...
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:05 am

Ierrellus wrote:1.Genetic evolution is deterministic and creative.
2. The experience of genetic evolution translates into myth.
3. A prevalent myth from experience of genetic evolution is the existence of God.

Could you give some specific examples from myth that seem to you to be closest to expressing this ?
There is clearly intuition here, I wonder if there is also specificity;

Does this theory apply to ancestral gods only or also to the great ideas of cosmology?
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:27 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:1.Genetic evolution is deterministic and creative.
2. The experience of genetic evolution translates into myth.
3. A prevalent myth from experience of genetic evolution is the existence of God.

Could you give some specific examples from myth that seem to you to be closest to expressing this ?
There is clearly intuition here, I wonder if there is also specificity;

Does this theory apply to ancestral gods only or also to the great ideas of cosmology?

Thanks for your post. It is a difficult question. I believe the notion of Gods is as old as human consciousness and that the notion has evolved into one God and the Universe as God. I hold that atheistic Darwinism is counterintuitive. The God meme is as old as humanity and is probably recognized by other animals as applying to their leader or head of the pack. My cat probably thinks I am God since I provide him with food and acceptance.
The idea that Nature provides us with our needs indicates that there is a God of Nature. That animals vie over food and humans share food indicates an evolution of the meme of God. This sharing is contrary to simple the dog eat dog concept of a mechanism for evolution. Altruism is also an incentive for believing we are created by a loving God who believes that "everything that lives is holy." (Blake) We live in an ecosystem!
My ideas of God are panentheistic, similar to Spinoza's.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:29 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:1.Genetic evolution is deterministic and creative.
2. The experience of genetic evolution translates into myth.
3. A prevalent myth from experience of genetic evolution is the existence of God.

Could you give some specific examples from myth that seem to you to be closest to expressing this ?
There is clearly intuition here, I wonder if there is also specificity;

Does this theory apply to ancestral gods only or also to the great ideas of cosmology?

Thanks for your post. It is a difficult question.

A question not addressed to you. SO you are not really qualified to answer it.
I believe the notion of Gods is as old as human consciousness and that the notion has evolved into one God and the Universe as God. I hold that atheistic Darwinism is counterintuitive.

So is most of science. If it was easy the human race would have progressed far more than it has. Sadly religious thinking has hampered science with a ball and chain for thousands of years.
The God meme is as old as humanity and is probably recognized by other animals as applying to their leader or head of the pack. My cat probably thinks I am God since I provide him with food and acceptance.

The god meme is false ideology - so much os obvious since it has done so much damage.
The idea that Nature provides us with our needs indicates that there is a God of Nature.

No it indicates that we adjusted by necessity TO nature, not that nature is adjusted to our needs. I know this is difficult for you. Much of science has thes sort of Copurnican Turns necessary to understand what is actually going on and NOT what the priest tells you to think.
The church demanded that the earth was the centre of the universe and this retarded science for thousands of years. The church demanded that nature is designed for our benefit. Darwin turned that round to show that humans and all other life is adjusted by the necessity to survive.
When you understand that (as you probably never will) you will understand evolution.

That animals vie over food and humans share food indicates an evolution of the meme of God. This sharing is contrary to simple the dog eat dog concept of a mechanism for evolution. Altruism is also an incentive for believing we are created by a loving God who believes that "everything that lives is holy." (Blake) We live in an ecosystem!
My ideas of God are panentheistic, similar to Spinoza's.


Spinoza was also an atheist. His "god" is not what you really want.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:57 pm

Sculptor.
What an ego you must have. I was addressing Fixed Cross, not you.
Your input is not wanted here. You know nothing of Spinoza. You know nothing of anyone here.
Please be gone. Perhaps a moderator can see to it since you appear to be deaf to me.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:10 pm

Vittorio,
I have placed Sculptor on my ignore list.
His rage about saving science from what he believes to be God or religion discredits his ability to offer civil discussion.
His know-it-all attitude does not render Facts for discussion.
His Ego cannot comment without ad hominem.
Last edited by Ierrellus on Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:22 pm

Thanks to Fixed Cross for attempting to bring this discussion back to the propositions of its OP.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:31 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Vittorio,
I have placed Sculptor on my ignore list.
His rage about saving science from what he believes to be God or religion discredits his ability to offer civil discussion.
His know-it-all attitude does not render Facts for discussion.
His Ego cannot comment without ad hominem.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Run away from the scary truth!!!!!
=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:32 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Sculptor.
What an ego you must have. I was addressing Fixed Cross, not you.
Your input is not wanted here. You know nothing of Spinoza. You know nothing of anyone here.
Please be gone. Perhaps a moderator can see to it since you appear to be deaf to me.


Oh well, what a shame, never mind!
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:33 pm

Vittorio wrote:
Sculptor wrote:And where is god in the death of an innocent young girl?
Nowhere!


Indeed, this is the reason most people actually purport to be atheistic. Not any actual kind of lack of belief based on science or philosophy, but anger at the actions of what is perceived to be God.

As if God being unjust or hurtful of your feelings would disprove his existence. It obviously would not.


Not really.
The idea of god is inherently stupid.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby promethean75 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:20 pm

If the subject statement of this thread is true, we'd have no natural understanding of the distinction between nouns and verbs, and the appreance of this feature of our language would be superfluous.

This feature of our language is not superfluous. Ergo; what is does is not what it is.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:07 pm

promethean75 wrote:If the subject statement of this thread is true, we'd have no natural understanding of the distinction between nouns and verbs, and the appreance of this feature of our language would be superfluous.

This feature of our language is not superfluous. Ergo; what is does is not what it is.

Thanks for your post.
Not necessarily. The action of a thing demands a thing to do the action and provides a description of what the thing is. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck---specifications of which a noun is suggested. There is no isolated verb. The action or state of being has to point to something that does or is.
Early English was replete with noun/verbs such as "milk".
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:11 am

Sculptor wrote:Run away from the scary truth!


If you see a man shitting in public, and you run away, it is not the scary truth you are running away from.

Many lurkers following Ierrellus, thanks for the deep thoughts on possible correlations between the content of human experience and the otherwise not-necessarily-human fact and dynamics of evolution.

They are not easy to formulate, and we appreciate it.

When you bring up the peacock tail, which itslef doesn't strictly follow Darwin's criteria for selection, because the energy input and output equation of what is invested versus what is gained in terms of mating rights doesn't correlate to the adaptation he described, modern scientists will say that, in any case, evolution is a random succession of fortuitous events and one would not expect the pull of adaptation to produce a perfect equation. But they do, by conjuring the adaptation principle in the first place, name a non-random and non-fortuitous dynamic that does, regardless of and without contradicting the mechanical succession, affect the course of evolution.

There is no reason Darwin's adaptation would be the only possible 'pull' determining the course of evolution. There is no reason coherent patterns cannot be read into evolutionary change. And, indeed, a failing of Darwin's selection principle as the only pattern present in the dynamics of evolution is that it does not account for certain things, like the peacock tail, or subjective experience. Regardless of the nature of experience, whether individual or generated by factors not unique to any individual animal, it is a fact that it exists. There is no reason it should, Darwinian adaptation would not predict it. This does not mean that we should not be able to trace it, even from amoeba, even from amino acids. This is so obvious it makes one fearful for the integrity of the religiously Darwinian mind. It is what evolution is, the description of all change. It simply means that it does exhibit patterns, and Darwin's selection mechanism is not inclusive of all change.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:29 am

Ierrellus wrote:Einstein believed in God. Hawking does not. Yet both were amazed by the intricate complexity of the visible universe.


Hawking didn't. Unfortunately, he did pass in 2018. But I do believe he did have that feeling of wonder that Einstein had, a feeling of reverence. I believe a feeling of reverence is required, in the first place, to bring yourself to listen for what the universe is doing, rather than attempt to dictate it. Specially to the degree that those two gentlemen did.

And I believe that a belief in God, such as you exhibit, is simply a manifestation of that reverence. To name some great thing outside yourself, to acknowledge that it is not you who dictates it. Or that it is you, but as part of a great thing that goes beyond your daily chores and the limitations of your day-to-day bodily experience or understanding. Some thing that includes more than just you, and is creative, and has entity.

Though I personally hold there to be more than one such entity, I believe I understand the feeling that it is you describe.

In any case, a competent theory of evolution should account for that reverence, not only its subject, but its object. Because it exists. And if it exists, it must be part of evolution. Because there is nothing that exists that is not part of evolution. That is the singular genius of the theory, and the way it brought science down from the life-denying towers of the anti-naturalists to the actual factual world.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Aventador » Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:39 am

And, for fuck's sake, 'what it does is what it is' is a genius way to formulate it.

It even respects Nietzsche's dictum that there is no 'thing in itself.'
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:23 pm

Aventador,
Thanks for your support. This is a difficult subject mainly because evolution is personal and the subjective feel of belonging to the whole is often denied in favor of the objective as if what is real must lie beyond what is fully human. Deep existential awareness suggests that we belong, which is the ethical third of our trinity of Being. ( Being, becoming, belonging.) This trinity is characterized by change.
I have often wondered how such complex organs as eye and brain could have developed from random, fortuitous occurrences in a natural world of which we are an integral part. That, to me, is counterintuitive. Dawkins rebukes the notion of proof of design of "irreducible complexity" simply by stating that there are other ways this could happen. Unfortunately, he is short on explaining these developments and can only offer the notion of random fortuity.
I am a part of you and both a part of God.
And genomes suggest that all life is interconnected. Our biosphere is an ecosystem. "Every thing that lives is holy."--Wm. Blake.
God does not play dice--Einstein.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:19 pm

Ierrellus wrote:God does not play dice--Einstein.


If only you knew what that meant!! :lol:
It means the universe it utterly deterministic. Nature is what nature does. There is nothing else.
That is what he meant.
Both Spinoza and Einstien rejected typical views of god.
In Sponoza's time, had he replaced "god" with "nature" as he would have wished he'd have been hung by the neck.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:41 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:God does not play dice--Einstein.


If only you knew what that meant!! :lol:
It means the universe it utterly deterministic. Nature is what nature does. There is nothing else.
That is what he meant.
Both Spinoza and Einstien rejected typical views of god.
In Sponoza's time, had he replaced "god" with "nature" as he would have wished he'd have been hung by the neck.

Not things I did not know. Please honor my wishes and absent yourself from this thread.
Your approach to the matter at hand is severely limited. Your posts, never without ad hominem. If you could only have posted on subject at hand and not about me---oh well. Please be gone.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:36 pm

Vittorio wrote:
Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Einstein believed in God.

False.
His god was Spinoza's god. Not a person, or personality. careless, a logic of nature. not a deitiy.


So because his interpretation of God was not the same of yours, he did not say God, and not believe in him?

Young man...


You are ignorant.
Read Ethics, or fuck off
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:37 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:God does not play dice--Einstein.


If only you knew what that meant!! :lol:
It means the universe it utterly deterministic. Nature is what nature does. There is nothing else.
That is what he meant.
Both Spinoza and Einstien rejected typical views of god.
In Sponoza's time, had he replaced "god" with "nature" as he would have wished he'd have been hung by the neck.

Not things I did not know. Please honor my wishes and absent yourself from this thread.
Your approach to the matter at hand is severely limited. Your posts, never without ad hominem. If you could only have posted on subject at hand and not about me---oh well. Please be gone.

Please honour my wishes and learn something before you speak of it.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:35 pm

Bye Sculptor.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:41 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Bye Sculptor.


What it does is what it is.

You must be "farewell".
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