What it does is what it Is

Half-formed posts, inchoate philosophies, and the germs of deep thought.

Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Vittorio » Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:45 pm

One sad consequence of this is that thinkers are unable to understand diribonucleic acid mutation as only one mechanical type of evolution. Do all other materials not, as well, evolve over time in non-arbitrary fashion? The question itself is not raised as of yet. But, if it was, much like Dawkins became stumped at the relationships of specific genes with no necessary relation by expression in phenotypes, the changes over time of different chemicals could ostensibly be linked by wider evolutionary expression.

Why evolution would be attributed exclusively to organic deribonucleic acid seems, once again, arbitrary, and likely attributable to the old supersticions about man's metaphysical separation from the actual world, which has slowly been extended to 'life's' metaphysical separation from the rest of the world, some 'magic' ingredient.

To sidetrack to the religious realm, this separation is often maliciously attributed to Judaic tradition, but in that tradition God created man in the very same way he created everything else, there is no religious basis in Judaism for the separation in quality of man from the rest of creation. It was a later development in Christian thought proper, and perhaps earlier in proto-Christian speculation. This is not intended as an attack on your illustrious self, as Christianity is a very big tradition with many traditions linked to it throughout different periods in time.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Vittorio » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:14 am

Ah, I would like to add one more thing.

Perhaps because the study of evolution has taken such a chemical slant, people seem to forget that 'genetic' does not refer to a type of chemical. When we say 'genetic material,' we are not referring to a chemical type of material, such as we might if we said 'organic material.'
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:36 pm

Vittorio,
Thank you for your honest and thoughtful posts. Such is what I had hoped for when I started this thread.
I agree that the Christian tradition, after the early church fathers, saw humans as estranged from the natural world by seeking man's final end in an after death heaven, a "Pie in the the sky". Jesus' social justice sermons still falls on deaf ears. The word for sinful living became "worldly", as if the world had anything to do with it. What developed was an antiscientific meme, ironically abetted by science itself--separation of man and nature.
Yes, the crux of the design of creation debate is whether or not evolution shows teleology or is just random, fortuitous, mechanical development.
The last few centuries of scientific and technological advances have booted the human ego to the point of considering all the universe as raw material for advance of humans. And, meanwhile, the fact that we are in and of the natural world is lost to the exploitation of natural resources.
The burden of a teleological argument for evolution as creative is simply to reunite man and nature.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:21 pm

About other worlds--Nietzsche's Zarathustra says he wishes those who long for another world would simply go there and leave the business of this world to those who care about this world. (Paraphrase). While Christians yearn for Heaven and scientists yearn for Utopia, the business of this world of bio-ecological systems. of each being as an integral, necessary part of the Whole, suffers from human, mental separatisms.

In our time, considering the World as it is, Is demands Ought.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:47 pm

Ierrellus wrote:About other worlds--Nietzsche's Zarathustra says he wishes those who long for another world would simply go there and leave the business of this world to those who care about this world. (Paraphrase). While Christians yearn for Heaven and scientists yearn for Utopia, the business of this world of bio-ecological systems. of each being as an integral, necessary part of the Whole, suffers from human, mental separatisms.

In our time, considering the World as it is, Is demands Ought.

Are you saying there should be no aspiration? Those "other worlds" are merely aspirational ideas to invoke "better" ("ought") behavior in this world. I think without any aspirations people would not do anything collectively.

The idea of a Law and Order society is an aspiration inspiring people to work together. The thought of being rewarded by Heaven is another. The thought of the possibility of a secular utopia is another.

If you took all of that away and didn't replace it with anything - uncivilized anarchy.

So it seems to me there "ought to be" aspiring goals - just pick them a little more carefully. :D
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Vittorio » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:28 pm

Ierrellus wrote:The burden of a teleological argument for evolution as creative is simply to reunite man and nature.


On an even wider scale, this is simply what is required to heal humanity. The notion that meaning, on any level of intensity or complexity, or even abstraction, is separate from nature, is a serious disease. It robs, because people then put all meaning on a special "box" outside of nature but, because there is nothing outside nature, the box is just an incinerator.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Vittorio » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:30 pm

Ierrellus wrote: whether or not evolution shows teleology or is just random, fortuitous, mechanical development.


Or the even stranger possibility that random, fortuitous, mechanical development eventually gives meaning and even teleology.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:43 pm

Vittorio wrote:
Ierrellus wrote: whether or not evolution shows teleology or is just random, fortuitous, mechanical development.


Or the even stranger possibility that random, fortuitous, mechanical development eventually gives meaning and even teleology.

That's why they call it conscioueness.
But evolution does not mandate any specific purpose. Consciousness chooses.
Evolution is an effect of change not a cause of it.
Last edited by Sculptor on Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:45 pm

Ierrellus wrote:God is physical in acts of creative evolution, metaphysical in projections of becoming.
God is the situation and its cause. Without God there would be nothing.
God is present in one's awe of Nature's bounty and beauty.
God is also present when two or more people of good will come together in one accord.
God is present in the hunger for righteousness.
God is present in experience of God, about which words fail.
God is unconditional, universal Love.


Idle speculations, incohernt, with zero reason or evidence.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Vittorio » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:19 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Vittorio wrote:
Ierrellus wrote: whether or not evolution shows teleology or is just random, fortuitous, mechanical development.


Or the even stranger possibility that random, fortuitous, mechanical development eventually gives meaning and even teleology.

That's why they call it conscioueness.
But evolution does not mandate any specific purpose. Consciusness chooses.
Evolution is an effect of change not a cause of it.


You are missing the deeper implications. Possibly because you do not address any of the issues we are bringing forward about what is causing stagnation in evolutionary theory. But your are exhibiting them wonderfully. Perhaps for anthropological consideration.

What does hunger mean? That there are energy requirements implications implicit in the dynamics of evolution. What does perspective mean? That there are meaning requirements implications implicit in the dynamics of evolution.

Unless you want to pretend perspective and meaning don't actually exist, fruit of the superstitions the illustrious gentleman and I have been discussing.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:09 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:God is physical in acts of creative evolution, metaphysical in projections of becoming.
God is the situation and its cause. Without God there would be nothing.
God is present in one's awe of Nature's bounty and beauty.
God is also present when two or more people of good will come together in one accord.
God is present in the hunger for righteousness.
God is present in experience of God, about which words fail.
God is unconditional, universal Love.


Idle speculations, incohernt, with zero reason or evidence.

Thanks for your opinion. This list is very coherent to for those who experience such things. Bob put it nicely in the Wholeness thread. The feeling of wholeness, of belonging, is like the feeling one gets when appreciating good art; it defies reason, yet it is real. My reason and evidence are from experiences anyone can know.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:17 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:About other worlds--Nietzsche's Zarathustra says he wishes those who long for another world would simply go there and leave the business of this world to those who care about this world. (Paraphrase). While Christians yearn for Heaven and scientists yearn for Utopia, the business of this world of bio-ecological systems. of each being as an integral, necessary part of the Whole, suffers from human, mental separatisms.

In our time, considering the World as it is, Is demands Ought.

Are you saying there should be no aspiration? Those "other worlds" are merely aspirational ideas to invoke "better" ("ought") behavior in this world. I think without any aspirations people would not do anything collectively.

The idea of a Law and Order society is an aspiration inspiring people to work together. The thought of being rewarded by Heaven is another. The thought of the possibility of a secular utopia is another.

If you took all of that away and didn't replace it with anything - uncivilized anarchy.

So it seems to me there "ought to be" aspiring goals - just pick them a little more carefully. :D


No. I am not negating aspiration; ,I'm implying that it is part of the dynamic of evolution. And to what do we aspire? If it's wholesale destruction of the planet, it is devolution. Thus is or being entails ought. Hume could not foresee the overpopulation and exploitation of current times.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:22 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:God is physical in acts of creative evolution, metaphysical in projections of becoming.
God is the situation and its cause. Without God there would be nothing.
God is present in one's awe of Nature's bounty and beauty.
God is also present when two or more people of good will come together in one accord.
God is present in the hunger for righteousness.
God is present in experience of God, about which words fail.
God is unconditional, universal Love.


Idle speculations, incohernt, with zero reason or evidence.

Thanks for your opinion. This list is very coherent to for those who experience such things.

Delusion.
Bob put it nicely in the Wholeness thread. The feeling of wholeness, of belonging, is like the feeling one gets when appreciating good art; it defies reason, yet it is real. My reason and evidence are from experiences anyone can know.

I get that from eating bacon or hugging my dog.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:26 pm

Vittorio wrote:
Sculptor wrote:
Vittorio wrote:
Or the even stranger possibility that random, fortuitous, mechanical development eventually gives meaning and even teleology.

That's why they call it conscioueness.
But evolution does not mandate any specific purpose. Consciusness chooses.
Evolution is an effect of change not a cause of it.


You are missing the deeper implications.

You mean I am not inventing nonsense.
Possibly because you do not address any of the issues we are bringing forward about what is causing stagnation in evolutionary theory. But your are exhibiting them wonderfully. Perhaps for anthropological consideration.

There is no such stagnation. You are not in a position to know or comment.
You are just relfecting your own petty frustrations.
I'd not exchange my study of, and education in evolution with yours for anything.


What does hunger mean? That there are energy requirements implications implicit in the dynamics of evolution. What does perspective mean? That there are meaning requirements implications implicit in the dynamics of evolution.

Unless you want to pretend perspective and meaning don't actually exist, fruit of the superstitions the illustrious gentleman and I have been discussing.


More gibberish. If you have a point to make, give it a try. This is just disconnected rubbish.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:33 pm

Sculptor,
Please be civil to others with opinions different from your own.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:48 pm

Vittorio,
I think your ideas on hunger and perspective are right. Both are included in the creative dynamics of evolution.

Some here would rather scoff than offer alternative views. Tolerate them simply because they have the right to be wrong.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:16 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Sculptor,
Please be civil to others with opinions different from your own.


Please try to be coherent.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:17 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Vittorio,
I think your ideas on hunger and perspective are right. Both are included in the creative dynamics of evolution.

Some here would rather scoff than offer alternative views. Tolerate them simply because they have the right to be wrong.

His points on hunger did not amount to anything so they cannot be "right".
You are just saying that because you want to get at me.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Vittorio » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:54 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Vittorio,
I think your ideas on hunger and perspective are right. Both are included in the creative dynamics of evolution.

Some here would rather scoff than offer alternative views. Tolerate them simply because they have the right to be wrong.


The capacity for understanding is not open to all, but those to whom it is not do provide an opportunity for one's own deeper understanding.

It is, in fact, the world we seek to study, and they are part of the world. And the world is beautiful.

I appreciate your writings very much, coming from a religious and political perspective separate from my own, because of a very rare understanding of evolution, and the deeper implications of its discovery.

So far, we have mostly simply been able to address what it is about modern scientists that prevents them from thorough research, these superstitions we have been discussing. And, of course, the feeling of threatened superstitions tends to cause the most visceral reactions. It is natural. And what we have addressed is, in my view, of great importance. Nietzsche, also, spent a large amount of his writing on healing, on addressing illness and detecting where and why thirst for knowledge is held up. It is necessary in order to find one's own bearings. We operate largely, or, rather, entirely on instinct, even at the highest most abstract theoretical levels of physics, chemistry, etc. It is instinct that drives the physicist, a hunger, a suspicion, a need. Or many of them. And when these instincts find obstacles to their satisfaction, it is important to understand why, like a ship identifying some island of logs slowing it down. This very fact of the instinctual nature of every single aspect of experience, this returning to nature on the level of conscious understanding, is the very thing we are discussing. And it can, as we have been lucky enough to figure out, only happen within the framework of strict scientific understanding which is evolution. The only other avenue it can take, which I also believe we have both found, is religious. Because, indeed, the scale of the discoveries is religious. The scope of what we find when we stop looking at the non-existent and start looking at the existing. Basically: everything.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:54 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Sculptor,
Please be civil to others with opinions different from your own.


Please try to be coherent.

Petty. Really beneath some of your more astute observations, such as how you feel about bacon or hugging your dog.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:42 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Sculptor wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Sculptor,
Please be civil to others with opinions different from your own.


Please try to be coherent.

Petty. Really beneath some of your more astute observations, such as how you feel about bacon or hugging your dog.


I detest arrogance, especially arrogance masked by false modesty.
Apparently you know god, and the mind of god, and the answer to the difficulties of the human condition.
What am I supposed to do here? BOW?
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Vittorio » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:35 pm

Sculptor wrote:Apparently you know god, and the mind of god,


If you would only listen...

Sculptor wrote:What am I supposed to do here? BOW?


Why? Hysterical outbursts are working just fine, young man.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Sculptor » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:50 am

Vittorio wrote:
Sculptor wrote:Apparently you know god, and the mind of god,


If you would only listen...

Sculptor wrote:What am I supposed to do here? BOW?


Why? Hysterical outbursts are working just fine, young man.


I'm older and wiser than you, vicky.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Vittorio » Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:24 am

Sculptor wrote:I'm older and wiser than you, vicky.


If you say so.
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Re: What it does is what it Is

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:10 pm

The 'matter presented here is inspired by Michael Dowd's beautiful book "Thank God For Evolution". It is a must read for those who find the Darwinian approach to evolution limited in its inability to fully describe what it means to be human and part of Nature.
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