The best singer in the world (at least for now)

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The best singer in the world (at least for now)

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:49 pm

Angelina Jordan is a singing prodigy, a REAL one!

Here's her at 8 years old!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnnzbdt4_RE

Here's her from the ages of 12 through 13 (she's currently 14)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTcvvO6B3Io

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVRWYEk8T3A

She (at the age of 14) has an amazing discography! Adele, Michael Jackson etc...
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Re: The best singer in the world (at least for now)

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:57 pm

Another one from Angelina Jordan:

https://youtu.be/LsTH02V9Pt4

And an honorary mention for child prodigy singers:

Angelica Hale...

https://youtu.be/b1NVOsatpF0
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Re: The best singer in the world (at least for now)

Postby zinnat » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:19 am

Try to listen some songs of Lata Mangeshkar. Perhaps, your opinion will change, even though the language will be alien for you.

With love,
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Re: The best singer in the world (at least for now)

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:20 am

zinnat wrote:Try to listen some songs of Lata Mangeshkar. Perhaps, your opinion will change, even though the language will be alien for you.

With love,
Sanjay


A 90 year old is not a child prodigy! I’ll listen to her, but it’s totally off topic. There’s also an amazing Taiwanese singer in her 30’s, again, not a child prodigy. I can’t understand what the fuck she’s saying, but she’s amazing! Just not a child prodigy!

You know who the most famous singing child prodigy of all time so far is? Michael Jackson
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Re: The best singer in the world (at least for now)

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:02 am

Ok, Zinnat! I know several things from these searches of Lata! She sings rip off songs from the western tradition in the 1950’s, her tone is similar to Dolly Parton’s (who is more famous in the west for her breasts than her songs). This music you sent me is not on the scale of a child prodigy! I’ll listen more though! But her best song has like 40 million hits! Aren’t there like a billion people in India with computers or phones now?!?!

Did not impress me at all!
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Re: The best singer in the world (at least for now)

Postby zinnat » Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:00 am

Ecmandu,

Thanks for taking time for listening her. It is ok if you do not like her.

With love,
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Re: The best singer in the world (at least for now)

Postby Magnus Anderson » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:59 am

Ecmandu wrote:A 90 year old is not a child prodigy!


I just laughed out loud after googling to check if the mentioned singer is truly 90 years old.

You know who the most famous singing child prodigy of all time so far is? Michael Jackson


You mean the guy who sang Blame it On the Boogie?
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Re: The best singer in the world (at least for now)

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:55 pm

Here’s another one from her as a child: Amy winehouse:

https://youtu.be/LbXUKzOxACU
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Re: The best singer in the world (at least for now)

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:03 pm

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Re: The best singer in the world (at least for now)

Postby Silhouette » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:55 pm

A critique of this Angelina Jordan:

To begin with, what strikes me the most about her is an extraordinary case of vocal mimicry. Obviously to pull this off you need both extraordinary vocal ability and versatility, and perhaps more notably an extraordinary ear for detail (stylistic nuance etc.) - the impressiveness of which is only enhanced by the lack of years' life experience that she's had to pick up these things and develop the ability to pull them off to the effect of essentially sounding like a recording of the original.

So at this point, I'll elaborate on what I mean by "critique", by exploring the notion of what it means to be the "best singer".

Certainly all of the above comes into it, but looking instead ONLY at the effect of her performances, why is Angelina the best singer and not Whitney Houston, Amy Winehouse et al. themselves whom she's simply able to replicate?
Looking at the relative disparity in maturity and experience, she has far more efficiently achieved that effect, assuming Whitney and Amy weren't just the same when they were her age - they were probably very talented but let's just assume not quite as much. But is "best singer" in any part a function of efficiency? Perhaps to a small degree - hence the term child prodigy being closely associated with the best in whatever field in which they are prodigious.
Though if one looks at "best singer" systematically - with inputs and outputs - there is more to input than efficiency. I would even argue that efficiency is a flaw compared to a long protracted process of being moulded by time and experience, slowly forging a unique identity as a result, and finally beginning to emerge and flourish through their natural talents into an entity who unavoidably exudes their story with every breath of their performance.
What should be immediately apparent is that "input" has in this way a direct effect on the "output" as more than simply an extraordinary experience of vocal/auditory ability. Angelina clearly emits passion and feeling, with the songs and her enjoyment of covering them definitely carrying significant meaning for her. But honestly, next to the almost uncomfortable damaged desperation of Amy Winehouse, or the tangible experience of heartbreak known by Whitney Houston - it seems kinda empty. It's not even her fault - she's a child, and it's remarkable that even a child expresses as much as Angelina does. But as an artistic performance, which encompasses far more than how good someone sounds, it's just not a fair competition between a child and an adult when it comes to something like "best singer". It's safe to assume that there's no way she'd be able to produce the hits she's singing by herself (although I guess technically she might be able to, despite the lack of evidence, and I'd like to be proven wrong here), simply because she's not had the same amount of time and experience to become the person who is compelled to create the original hits that she's singing. It might even be an obstacle to her becoming one of these people - that she's enjoying so much praise and attention so young, when suffering does seem to help many people grow into becoming one of these people. Though at least some people also suffer from success - not that I'd wish that on her.

I've tried to not detract from how amazing this kid is for her age, and maybe the above points are trivial to some who reading this - it's just a critique, which I am making because it happens to mean a lot to me. Honestly, I think art has suffered a lot in recent years, by putting emphasis on virtuosity as little more than showcases of "dexterity", and being able to technologically iron out the nuance and perceived "imperfection" that would otherwise carry the whole unique story with it - and thus the specialness of the experience. The more "perfected" the final product, the more replicable and formulaic it becomes as a result of these nuances being ironed out. Not incidentally, this is why famous singers these days are forced to intentionally embellish and warble exaggeratedly and almost tortuously around their delivery (e.g. Winehouse). By no means does this mean that lack of production positively correlates with quality - the whole reason production methods have become so advanced is to eliminate this risk for a more reliable result. But that's the thing - without the risk, you lose the "failure" which can so often make a piece of art rather than break it. Technical flamboyance is incontrovertibly replacing feel across all artforms, and at least I personally suffer for it, if not others as well as me.

Okay, by changing from the specific to the general I've gone from critique to rant - but just to give context.

Angelina is commendable for being able to replicate these invaluable imperfections, which definitely enhances how good she is as a singer - on top of her ability to hit the notes with the right tone, timbre and dynamics - and do all of this with uncanny precision for her age. I just don't think these criteria alone are enough to make her the best singer in the world.
Last edited by Silhouette on Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The best singer in the world (at least for now)

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:05 pm

Silhouette, I never stated she was the best singer of all time! That’s absurd!

My thread title meant to say she is current best singer. I understand the ambiguous of my thread title now. Apologies for that.
Last edited by Ecmandu on Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The best singer in the world (at least for now)

Postby Silhouette » Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:19 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Silhouette, I never stated she was the best sing of all time! That’s absurd!

My thread title meant to say she is current best singer.i understand the ambiguous of my thread title now. Apologies for that.

Yeah I don't think I mentioned anything about being the best singer of all time, just in the world.
In fact, I think it was only you who brought up "of all time" in reference to Michael Jackson.

I did my best to stick to the title as "the best singer in the world", and don't think I implied more than that - though obviously Whitney and Amy both happen to be dead now I suppose. The only reason I brought them up specifically is because Angelina was covering songs by them, and she mimicked them incredibly, whereas Frank Sinatra, Elton John and Freddie Mercury she admittedly wasn't mimicking quite so well because they're males. And like Michael, they're all dead too apart from Elton #-o

So if you're looking into the fact that I was mentioning singers who are no longer current, that's just coincidence because those were the artists that she was covering who people here happened to link...

For the best singer in the world who is still alive, I'd have to have a long think about that - I was just offering a critique, that may or may not make Angelina still the best singer in the world (at least for now), but probably makes her not the best singer in the world for the reasons I went into.

Eh, I dunno - just my two cents.
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Re: The best singer in the world (at least for now)

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:29 pm

Silhouette wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Silhouette, I never stated she was the best sing of all time! That’s absurd!

My thread title meant to say she is current best singer.i understand the ambiguous of my thread title now. Apologies for that.

Yeah I don't think I mentioned anything about being the best singer of all time, just in the world.
In fact, I think it was only you who brought up "of all time" in reference to Michael Jackson.

I did my best to stick to the title as "the best singer in the world", and don't think I implied more than that - though obviously Whitney and Amy both happen to be dead now I suppose. The only reason I brought them up specifically is because Angelina was covering songs by them, and she mimicked them incredibly, whereas Frank Sinatra, Elton John and Freddie Mercury she admittedly wasn't mimicking quite so well because they're males. And like Michael, they're all dead too apart from Elton #-o

So if you're looking into the fact that I was mentioning singers who are no longer current, that's just coincidence because those were the artists that she was covering who people here happened to link...

For the best singer in the world who is still alive, I'd have to have a long think about that - I was just offering a critique, that may or may not make Angelina still the best singer in the world (at least for now), but probably makes her not the best singer in the world for the reasons I went into.

Eh, I dunno - just my two cents.


No, I appreciate that. Honestly though, would you rather go to an Adele concert or an Angelina concert?

As far as the best singer of all time, I don’t think that’s a possible question to answer... we have hundreds of one hit wonders who are the only person on earth who can sing that song better than anyone.

Angelina may never be a singer song writer. A singer songwriter really raises the bar for me.

At her age... Angelina really makes me think she is a prodigy of singing. Those don’t come around every day!

Angelina singing Adele performance in Norway:

https://youtu.be/aHGSsqQOs5I
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Re: The best singer in the world (at least for now)

Postby Silhouette » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:50 pm

Ecmandu wrote:would you rather go to an Adele concert or an Angelina concert?

To answer honestly? Neither. Unfortunately for me, I find mainstream music too frustrating and unstimulating - I usually have the patience to give some such songs a listen, and offer input that I try to make as impartial as possible, but naturally it won't be completely devoid of my own subjectivity because it's an artform. I find it difficult to pinpoint what exactly is going on, but to a certain extent I like music to be challenging (though not for its own sake) or at least thoughtfully/emotionally unique in a way that's ear-catching beyond the base level e.g. because it has some catchy hook or an overly repeated simplistic theme (which is all pop is to me).

In short, I'm a music snob - though I dislike music snobs who not-so-secretly wallow in their "superior" discretion. I prefer to be self-effacing about it, because I begrudgingly appreciate that my views on music don't have to be objective.

If I was to consider grounds for going to one of those concerts over the other, I'd be debating whether I wanted to appreciate a presentation of life experience, or to be impressed by something uncannily close to this despite an explicit lack of need for afore-mentioned life experience.

To be consistent with my above post on this thread, I'd rationally have to side with Adele, but going by feel (which I prefer to do when it comes to music) I can take or leave the overall result of either scenario.

Ecmandu wrote:As far as the best singer of all time, I don’t think that’s a possible question to answer... we have hundreds of one hit wonders who are the only person on earth who can sing that song better than anyone.

Angelina may never be a singer song writer. A singer songwriter really raises the bar for me.

At her age... Angelina really makes me think she is a prodigy of singing. Those don’t come around every day!

This concords with a point I was trying to make about art "being special".

I don't mean a "specific person" being "special", but an experience being special that just happens to involve some person rather than another. The "who's who" specifics to me are largely irrelevant, it's the generality of "specialness" that I think is so important (it's the market technique of "branding" that so ingeniously inverts this in favour of abusing psychological loopholes for material profit).

Prodigies are special in that they are so rare. I honestly enjoy them in much the same way that I am impressed by all outstanding virtuosity from all ages - it's a rare and welcome surprise. However the market for any old virtuoso has become somewhat saturated with easy global exposure enabled and facilitated by the internet through youtube etc. Nowadays virtuosity is less special, so it requires that extra competitive ingredient of "most efficiently achieved virtuosity" by younger and younger children.

I see this tendency as ill-fated, because I don't want to feel like talented children are being more and more pressured too hard to become one of these 1-in-a-multimillion prodigies.

Instead I would prefer a much more healthy and sustainable competition to perform special experiences by virtue of working on a unique life that begs to be expressed in a special way. This is why I war against the tendency to fake virtuosity with too much production value eliminating the special in favour of more homogenous reliability to better suit a capitalist market for music that relies on uncertain debt and credit and therefore minimising risk. For the same reason I war against the showcasing of excessive warbling to compensate for artists being forced into the homogenous and reliable "well produced" limbo required of modern musical success. Even a naturally distinctive and imperfect, but honest rendition is preferable to my ears, even though I am particularly sensitive to pitch. It can really grate on my ears when notes are unintentionally missed.

Ecmandu wrote:Angelina singing Adele performance in Norway:

https://youtu.be/aHGSsqQOs5I

I hope the irony of this performance is not only appreciated by me: a 13 year old laments with nostalgia, looking back through rose coloured glasses at the times "when we were young".

Literally living the years of her life, or not yet even having lived the years of her own life that much older artists were fondly recalling from much further in the future...
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Re: The best singer in the world (at least for now)

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:05 pm

Silhouette,

I’ll try to redeem angelina for you one last time.

She considers herself primarily a jazz singer, that was her influence as a child, and by child I mean 3 years old!

Here’s a song she sang that might make you think twice about what she’s about:

https://youtu.be/Bo3mhxPM-uA
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Re: The best singer in the world (at least for now)

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:12 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Silhouette,

I’ll try to redeem angelina for you one last time.

She considers herself primarily a jazz singer, that was her influence as a child, and by child I mean 3 years old!

Here’s a song she sang that might make you think twice about what she’s about:

https://youtu.be/Bo3mhxPM-uA


Also this, not pop!

https://youtu.be/KRSI8HmTHJA
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Re: The best singer in the world (at least for now)

Postby promethean75 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:20 pm

 short, I'm a music snob - though I dislike music snobs who not-so-secretly wallow in their "superior" discretion. I prefer to be self-effacing about it, because I begrudgingly appreciate that my views on music don't have to be objective.


A long long time ago I proved through a masterful display of sophistry and well crafted argument that music could be objectively good or bad... in the same way an answer to a mathematical problem would be true or false. Forget how I did it but it was good man and probably right (I'm very often right).

I think a bit of superior discretion is called for if you are, indeed, a genuine music-snob. I am. I will not only tell you what you're listening to sucks, but how and why it sucks. And if you do not understand, it's not because there isn't objectively good and bad music, but because you hath not ears and such things are inaccessible to you.
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Re: The best singer in the world (at least for now)

Postby Silhouette » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:17 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Silhouette,

I’ll try to redeem angelina for you one last time.

She considers herself primarily a jazz singer, that was her influence as a child, and by child I mean 3 years old!

Here’s a song she sang that might make you think twice about what she’s about:

https://youtu.be/Bo3mhxPM-uA

She's singing someone else's arrangement again?

Honestly don't worry about trying to "redeem" her - I am conclusively impressed by her talents. My points are independent of her influences though, which I am sure vary far from mainstream pop. I'd still argue that this song lends itself to mainstream sensibilities with its consonant cadences and repetitious banalities about barley, but that's Nico's fault, not hers.

The performance is second to none, but allow me to temporarily debase this thread about the "best singer in the world" by offering an almost exactly contrasting piece of music that I was literally just listening to, which will no doubt simultaneously disgust and bore you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fIZ_T178ag - to give you an idea of the degree to which music can (and I think should) vary.

Obviously I am straying far from the topic of "best singer in the world" here, but to the ends of arguing my wider point about art.
The piece I linked is almost unbearably oppressive with its slow, heavy monotany, decorated only with "appropriately" almost indiscernable growls for vocals, which together with their "musical" backing nonetheless evoke a bleak, futile and unpleasant burden to consciously exist at all. The piece is broadly divided into 3 stages. The first third (twice as long in itself than a contemporary pop song) sets this scene, the second third raises the consequences of the first to thoughts of a resolution to finally act upon such a consumed existence, opening with an elongated wail of distress (expertly depicted by guitar slides with huge echo and delay effects with a volume shifter, I think?) that has surpassed all reason and the piece comes to a kind of "life" bathed in all the pain and unresolved negative emotions of the the first third. The final third is the fulfilment of all that came before it, closing the song in an extended simulation of physically as well as metaphorically drowning, and a kind of simple peace and resolution, absolution and maybe even revenge against life itself.

Whether you were able to sit through the entire 17 minute piece or not - why do I bring this up at all?

Instead of light, we have pure darkness - but if you dare to listen, we are unavoidably plummeted into the entire world of the composer(s) whether we like it or not, and there is a depth of connection experienced here that cannot be compared to things like the sunny recollections of parting with a lover (your second link).
Through some combination of seemingly endlessly repeated themes and a lack of melodic colour that would otherwise brighten the incessant dissonance, we gain a hugely more powerful insight to one of the more extreme extents of the human condition than an Angelina song could ever offer us.

The exact opposite of all her talent resulted in a far more meaningful artistic piece? Well, I've listened to this piece on and off many many times in my life, and I'll probably never listen to Angelina again by my own accord.
Again, it's all subjective, but my point is that the depth I'm seeking doesn't lie in a nice voice. Art goes deeper.
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Re: The best singer in the world (at least for now)

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:34 pm

Before I listen to your song,

It sounds like a 3 movement sonata from Beethoven... who invented that shit in the first place.

As far as classical music is concerned (and I’m sure you’ll love this tidbit). The most beautiful songs are not songs for god, but songs for funeral marches, songs to death and songs to the devil! Pretty ironic eh?
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Re: The best singer in the world (at least for now)

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:53 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Before I listen to your song,

It sounds like a 3 movement sonata from Beethoven... who invented that shit in the first place.

As far as classical music is concerned (and I’m sure you’ll love this tidbit). The most beautiful songs are not songs for god, but songs for funeral marches, songs to death and songs to the devil! Pretty ironic eh?


So... I listened to your song. It sounds like background music to me. You know, back before recordings occurred, if your song didn’t grab attention on first hearing ... your career tanked instantly.

The selective pressure was so much higher back then!

Now, anyone can get away with anything!

Let me show you an example from Liszt...

https://youtu.be/LdH1hSWGFGU
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Re: The best singer in the world (at least for now)

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:16 am

Ecmandu wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Before I listen to your song,

It sounds like a 3 movement sonata from Beethoven... who invented that shit in the first place.

As far as classical music is concerned (and I’m sure you’ll love this tidbit). The most beautiful songs are not songs for god, but songs for funeral marches, songs to death and songs to the devil! Pretty ironic eh?


So... I listened to your song. It sounds like background music to me. You know, back before recordings occurred, if your song didn’t grab attention on first hearing ... your career tanked instantly.

The selective pressure was so much higher back then!

Now, anyone can get away with anything!

Let me show you an example from Liszt...

https://youtu.be/LdH1hSWGFGU


Also, what I mean to say is that from selective pressure, all the old music used to be “foreground music”. That’s why you don’t play it at parties; it distracts! I could play your song at a party and have no problem.
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Re: The best singer in the world (at least for now)

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:48 am

Let me show you a little more liberty here from Liszt So that you can know the difference here between foreground music (Liszt and other classical composers) and the background music you submitted:

Liszt, Mephistopheles waltz (waltzing with the devil):

https://youtu.be/bIoqF6g2tHM

Again Liszt: totentanz (dance of death)

https://youtu.be/emb0oBC8hhY

And of course Beethoven has the best funeral march ever!

https://youtu.be/AnS1i9bVGHU

Again, with these musicians, you didn’t hear the song 100 times on the radio and finally you liked it, it was do or die back then, one fucking concert, and you were shit if people didn’t like you on one hearing!
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Re: The best singer in the world (at least for now)

Postby Magnus Anderson » Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:15 am

I'm going to be a pedant and say something completely off-topic: Liszt isn't a classical composer but a romantic one. My impression is that, on average, romantic music tends to be better than both classical and baroque. The reason being that romantic music is much more melodic (even though emotionally over the top.) Baroque is probably the worst in this regard.
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Re: The best singer in the world (at least for now)

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:38 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:I'm going to be a pedant and say something completely off-topic: Liszt isn't a classical composer but a romantic one. My impression is that, on average, romantic music tends to be better than both classical and baroque. The reason being that romantic music is much more melodic (even though emotionally over the top.) Baroque is probably the worst in this regard.


Beethoven was considered the bridge between baroque and romantic. It’s all considered classical music. Beethoven was super awesome because he was the first composer to say “fuck the Catholic Church, I’m going to write whatever I want to write!”’

His music was so good that the Catholic Church relented. He was the birth of modern music in the west! He started it all!

Liszt started Jazz (which black people take credit for)

https://youtu.be/fmlh24xSbCc

Alkan started 20th and 21st century music (a contemporary of Chopin and Liszt).
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Re: The best singer in the world (at least for now)

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:45 am

Ecmandu wrote:
Magnus Anderson wrote:I'm going to be a pedant and say something completely off-topic: Liszt isn't a classical composer but a romantic one. My impression is that, on average, romantic music tends to be better than both classical and baroque. The reason being that romantic music is much more melodic (even though emotionally over the top.) Baroque is probably the worst in this regard.


Beethoven was considered the bridge between baroque and romantic. It’s all considered classical music. Beethoven was super awesome because he was the first composer to say “fuck the Catholic Church, I’m going to write whatever I want to write!”’

His music was so good that the Catholic Church relented. He was the birth of modern music in the west! He started it all!

Liszt started Jazz (which black people take credit for)

https://youtu.be/fmlh24xSbCc

Alkan started 20th and 21st century music (a contemporary of Chopin and Liszt).


I’ll save you some research on alkan!

https://youtu.be/D-KEKI6MaB8

https://youtu.be/xJPyX03bQPs

https://youtu.be/mNI8iLWGyFU

Couldn’t find lewenthal for the last one (damn YouTube!) sorry! “Le vent” translates as “the wind”

So... alkan was an eccentric recluse who Liszt himself called “the greatest pianist and composer I’ve ever known”.

Alkan wrote most of his songs for a 4 pedaled organ! Which incidentally, almost nobody plays! He does have surviving piano works though.

Liszt thought so highly of alkan that when he stepped down as the dean of music at Weimar, he offered the job to alkan, which alkan refused.
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