## philosophy in film

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### Re: philosophy in film

How far is this from JonBenet Ramsey? Pretty far. But how about Honey Boo-Boo?

Sorry, these beauty pageants for kids really creep me out.

Lesson #2: Don't read Nietzsche. Or Proust?

There's a fine line between colorful and caricature. And these guys go right up to it. It's a whole new spin on screwball comedy.

This is a really, really funny movie.

IMDb:

"All of the girls acting as participants in the "Little Miss Sunshine" beauty pageant, except Abigail Breslin, were veterans of real beauty pageants. They wore the same costumes, including hair and makeup, and performed the same talent routines as they had in their real-life pageants."

And:

"The production crew made sure Abigail Breslin really was listening to music in her headphones to keep her from hearing Alan Arkin's profanity-laced scenes."

LITTLE MISS SUNSHINE
Directed by Jonathan Dayton and Valerie Faris

Frank: Good night Dwayne.
Dwayne: [scribbles on notepad] Don't kill yourself tonight.
Frank: Not on your watch Dwayne. I wouldn't do that to you.
Dwayne: [on notepad] Welcome to hell.
Frank: Thanks Dwayne. Coming from you that means a lot.

...

Grandpa: Again with the fucking chicken!
Grandpa: It's always the goddamn chicken!!

...

Frank: I couldn't help noticing Dwayne has stopped speaking.

...

Printed on Dwayne's tee-shirt: JESUS WAS WRONG

...

Grandpa: I have Nazi bullets in my ass!

...

Frank: So who do you hang around with?
Frank: No one?
Dwayne: [whips out a pen and notebook from his back pocket. bangs the end of the pen on table and writes on a notepad: "I Hate Everyone."]
Dwayne: [deeply underlines "Everyone"]

...

Richard: Sarcasm is the refuge of losers.
Frank: [sarcastically] It is? Really?
Richard: Sarcasm is losers trying to bring winners down to their level.
Frank: [sarcastically] Wow, Richard, you've really opened my eyes to what a loser I am. How much do I owe you for those pearls of wisdom?
Richard: Oh, that one is on the house.

...

Sheryl: [after Frank tried to commit suicide] I'm so glad you're still here.
Frank: Well, that makes one of us.

...

Sheryl: What did he say?
Richard: I'll tell you when I regain consciousness.

...

Dwayne: I wish I could just sleep until I was eighteen and skip all this crap-high school and everything-just skip it.
Frank: Do you know who Marcel Proust is?
Dwayne: He's the guy you teach.
Frank: Yeah. French writer. Total loser. Never had a real job. Unrequited love affairs. Gay. Spent 20 years writing a book almost no one reads. But he's also probably the greatest writer since Shakespeare. Anyway, he uh... he gets down to the end of his life, and he looks back and decides that all those years he suffered, Those were the best years of his life, 'cause they made him who he was. All those years he was happy? You know, total waste. Didn't learn a thing. So, if you sleep until you're 18... Ah, think of the suffering you're gonna miss. I mean high school? High school-those are your prime suffering years. You don't get better suffering than that.
Dwayne: You know what? Fuck beauty contests. Life is one fucking beauty contest after another. School, then college, then work... Fuck that. And fuck the Air Force Academy. If I want to fly, I'll find a way to fly. You do what you love, and fuck the rest.

...

Grandpa [to Olive]: A real loser is someone who's so afraid of not winning he doesn't even try.

...

...

Frank: Who is that? Nietzsche? So you stopped talking because of Friedrich Nietzsche? Far out.

...

Grandpa: [to Frank] And get yourself a fag rag.

...

Richard: Oh my God, I'm getting pulled over. Everyone, just pretend to be normal.

...

Olive: Why were you unhappy?
Frank: I fell in love with someone...
[interrupted by Grandpa blowing his nose]
Frank: ...who didn't love me back.
Olive: Who?
Frank: One of my grad students. I was very much in love with him.
Olive: Him? You fell in love with a boy?
Frank: Very much so.
Olive: That's silly.
Frank: You're right it was silly. It was very silly
Grandpa: That's another word for it.

...

Richard: [half asleep] What is it, hon?
Olive: Grandpa won't wake up.

...

Frank: I take it you didn't like it at Sunset Manor?
Sheryl: Frank...
Grandpa: Are you kidding me? It was a fucking paradise. They got pool... They got golf... Now I'm stuck with Mr. Happy here, sleeping on a fucking sofa. Look, I know you are a homo and all, but maybe you can appreciate this. You go to one of those places, there's four women for every guy. Can you imagine what that's like?
Frank: You must have been very busy.
Grandpa: Ho oh. I had second degree burns on my johnson, I kid you not

...

Dwayne: No, you're not my family! I don't wanna be your family! I hate you fucking people! Divorce? Bankrupt? Suicide? You're fucking losers, you're losers!!

...

Dwayne: I apologize for the things I just said. I was upset, and I didn't really mean them.

...

Olive: I'd like to dedicate this to my grandpa, who showed me these moves.
Pageant MC: Aww, that is so sweet.
[Audience applauds]
Pageant MC: Is he here? Where's your grandpa right now?
Olive: In the trunk of our car.

...

Officer Martinez: Okay, you're out. On the condition that you never enter your daughter in a beauty pageant in the state of California, ever again. Ever.
Frank: I think we can live with that.

...

Dwayne: [after finding out that he is colour blind and can't fly planes] FUUUUUUCK!

...

Frank: [as audience members boo Olive's performance] Where are they? I will kill those little fuckers!

...

Sheryl: [to Frank] He started snorting heroin.
Frank: [to Grandpa] You started snorting heroin?
Grandpa: [in response to Frank, aimed at Dwayne] Let me tell ya, don't do that stuff. When you're young, you're crazy to do that shit.
Frank: [to Grandpa] Well what about you?
Grandpa: [to Frank] What about me? I'm old. When you're old you're crazy not to do it.

...

Richard: Okay.
Kirby: Is there anything else?
Richard: Uh, yeah. Is there a funeral home around here?

...

Frank: [reading what Dwayne is writing on his notepad] But. I. Am. Not. Going. To. Have. Any. Fun.
Frank: Yeah, we're all with ya on that one, Dwayne.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
iambiguous: a post from Pedro?

iambiguous
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Posts: 38509
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Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

This is a gem if only for the way in which it takes us back to a time when ignorance of sex was nothing short of staggering. And as much in adults, as children.

Sex, as Kinsey propounds, is a manifestation of the "biologic command". We only have so much control over it.

Kinsey takes science into sex and it explodes a lot of myths rooted in religion. And this says a lot about making distinctions between what is construed to be normal and what really is normal. But nothing at all about what ought to be construed as normal.

IMDb:

"Despite containing relatively few depictions of sexual behavior, the MPAA gave the movie the R rating for all the conversations about sex and verbal descriptions of sexual acts. However, according to director Bill Condon, the MPAA members thanked him afterwards, because they had found the movie very educational nevertheless."

KINSEY
Written and directed by Bill Condon

Minister: Lust has a thousand avenues--the dance hall, the ice cream parlor...the tenement saloon...the Turkish bath. Like the Hydra it grows new heads everywhere. Even the modern inventions of science are used to cultivate immorality. The gas engine has brought us the automobile joyride...and an even more pernicious menace, the roadside brothel. Electricity has made possible the degrading picture show. Because of the telephone a young woman can hear the voice of her suitor on the pillow, right next to her. And let's not forget the most scandalous invention of all--the talon-slide fastener, otherwise known as the zipper, which provides every man and boy speedy access to moral oblivion.

...

Potential interviewer: How old were you when you first tried to pleasure yourself?
Kinsey [sighing]" No. No. No euphemisms. If you're talking to a college graduate use ''masturbation,'' ''testicles,'' ''penis'' ''vagina, '' ''vulva, '' ''urination, '' ''defecation. '' With the lower-level male, it's ''jacking off,'' ''balls'' ''prick, '' ''cunt, '' ''piss, '' ''shit. ''

...

Boyhood friend: I had one of the old fits again. I tried to stop it.
Young Kinsey [reading from a religious tract]: ''Any habit which causes the sex fluid to be discharged must be resisted. Doctors link it to an assortment of illnesses including insanity, blindness, epilepsy... even death.''
Friend: What if it happens while you're asleep?
Kinsey: ''It is said that the loss of one ounce of seminal fluid equals the loss of ounces of blood.''
Friend: I'm killing myself, and I'm not even awake! What are we supposed to do?
Kinsey: ''Keep your bowels open, read the Sermon on the Mount, sit with your testicles submerged in a bowl of cold water and think of your mother's pure love.''

...

Professor Rice: Abstinence poses no difficulty for the college-age male. Men don't reach their sexual peak until the age of 40. It is the lower-class male, often Negro, who finds it difficult to control his urges. However, perfect inhibition although an ideal to be striven for is not always achievable. Stress and the worries of the day can lead to a weakening of resolve opening the door to temptation. When tense at bedtime I find there are little tricks to relaxing. If I can't get to sleep I like to close my eyes and think of all theJohns I know. [ muffled snickering from the class] Oh, and not only Johns. Sometimes Peters. [more snickering, chuckling from the class]
The lone "Negro" Student: How about Dicks?
[The class bursts into loud Laughter]
Professor Rice [nonplussed]: I'm sorry?

...

Alfred: Love is the answer, isn't it? But, sex raises a lot of very interesting questions...

...

Professor Kinsey: Why offer a marriage course? Because society has interfered with what should be a normal biological development causing a scandalous delay of sexual activity which leads to sexual difficulty in early marriage. In an uninhibited society, a 12-year-old would know most of the biology which I will have to give you in formal lectures. So, let's start with the six stages of the coital sequence.

Than of course there is the love/lust can of worms. Talk about daseins and "conflicting goods"!

Alfred: It's not you, Mac. You're the best partner any man could have.
Clara: I'm just not enough. Is that it?
Alfred: Please, Mac. This is inside of me. To what extent, I don't know. But I'd be a hypocrite if I pretended it wasn't there. When I took your history...
Clara: Don't! Don't!
Alfred: ...didn't you admit to having sexual feelings for other men?
Clara: Don't use that against me!
Alfred: I'm sorry. But what keeps you from acting on your feelings? Convention.
Clara: No! It's our marriage! It's our children!
Alfred: Exactly. Social restraints.
Clara: Did you ever stop to think that perhaps those restraints are there...to keep people from hurting each other? I don't sleep with other men because I love you...and I don't want to hurt you.
Alfred: But what if it didn't hurt me?
Clara: Then I'd be hurt.
Alfred: You're just afraid that I won't love you anymore, which is impossible, Mac. The human animal is capable of all kinds of sexual expression. Not all sex has to be sanctioned by love, enriched by emotion. To the Greeks--
Clara: Stop! Stop lecturing, Prok. Stop using science to justify what you've done.
Alfred: Listen to me. You're my girl. You always will be. The bond we have, the life we share-- sex is nothing compared to that.

And that is because talk here just sends us going around and around in circles.

[Kinsey's Voice]: Most people think that what they do sexually is what everyone does...or should do. But I might remark that nearly all the so-called sexual perversions fall within the range ofbiologic normality. For example, masturbation, mouth-genital contacts and homosexual acts are common among most mammals including humans. Society might condemn such practices on moral grounds. However, it's ludicrous to call them unnatural. But based on the first Book of Genesis and according to public opinion there's only one correct sexual equation--man plus woman equals baby. Everything else is vice.

...

Kinsey [teaching his first class] Who can tell me which part of the human body can enlarge a hundred times. You, miss?
Female Student: [indignantly] I'm sure I don't know. And you've no right to ask me such a question in a mixed class.
Alfred: [amused] I was referring to the pupil in your eye, young lady.
[class laughs]

...

Kinsey [lecturing his class] Why are some cows highly sexed while others just stand there? Why do some men need 20 orgasms a week and others almost none? Because everyone is different. The problem is, most people want to be the same. They find it easier to simply ignore this fundamental aspect of the human condition. They're so eager to be part of the group that they'll betray their own nature to get there. If something pleasurable and strongly desired is prohibited it becomes an obsession.

And not only with respect to sex, eh?

Kinsey: One key to understanding a foreign culture is its pornography. Every culture produces its own peculiar sexual imagery--as distinct as its cuisine. As you can see, Brazil's imagery tends towards zoophilia while Italy favors nuns and priests. In England, one often sees depictions of the stern headmistress--wankers and spankers. While in the Far East, it's soft ''flage''and light bondage.

...

Kinsey: One of the aims of science is to simplify. The only way to study sex with any scientific accuracy is to strip away everything but its physiological functions.

Right.

Interviewer: How often do you reach orgasm?
Research subject: Once.
Interviewer: A day?
Research subject: No. Only once. About 20 years ago. I was sitting on a piano stool listening to music.

...

Research subject: I guess I was about nine. One of them old gals caught me out in the field. And she say she was gonna show me a new game called ''puddin'.'' And, well, I guess I kinda liked it.

...

Clyde: When did you first begin masturbating?
Old Woman: I INVENTED it, son.

...

Wardell: How old were you when you first engaged in sexual activity with a partner?
Research Subject: 14.
Wardell: How?
Research Subject: With horse.
Wardell: [pause] How often were you having intercourse with animals at age 14?
Research Subject: [stunned] It's true. I fucked a pony. You are genius, how did you know?
Wardell: You just said you had [pause] sex with horse.
Research Subject: Nooo... Whores, not horse, whores.

...

Effete Man in Gay Bar: [referring to Kinsey] Mary here says he's from the University of Indiana and she'd like to interview me about my "sex history".
Effete Man's Friend: Tell him to stick around and watch.

...

Clyde: You know, this thing between Prok and me was fine for a while, but I guess I just really miss sleeping with women.
Alfred: That's perfectly understandable. It's clear from your history you have a greater sexual interest in women than men.
Clyde: Good. Then you wont mind if I ask Mac to have sex with me. Only if it appeals to you, of course.
Clara: Would it be separately or together?
Clyde: Oh, no, definitely just you and I.
Clara: I think I might like that. What do you think, Prok?

...

Alfred: The doctors say my heart sounds like a cement mixer.
Clyde: At least they found one.

...

Clyde: You know what amazes me? There's no relation between how sexy a girl looks and her sex life. The ugly ones seem to get all the action.
Clara: I always thought ugly was an ugly word

....

Reporter: What brings you to New York, Dr. Kinsey?
Kinsey: We'll be taking the sex histories of artists, writers and actors...including the entire cast of A Streetcar Named Desire.

...

Reporter: Any plans on a Hollywood picture based on the book?
Kinsey: I can't think of anything more pointless.

Then the reactionary [religious] backlash:

Herman: Seems that the archbishop of Fort Wayne tipped off the customs board.
Alfred: What is it with these people? They're simply depictions of man in his natural state.
Herman: I don't know much about natural states, Prok but here in the state of Indiana we have a problem.
Alfred: We'll just have to take the customs office to court.
Herman: And who's gonna pay for that, the Rockefeller Foundation? You're an inch away from losing your grant as it is.
Alfred: That's not true. What do you mean?
Herman: J Edgar Hoover is still annoyed that you won't help him find homosexuals in the State Department.

...

Alfred [reading from an article about him]: "Self-appointed messiah of the sexually despised." ''Having had his way with the male of the species Kinsey now insecticizes American womanhood.''
Clara: Did you get any sleep at all last night?
Alfred: How many years do I have to study human behavior before I'm no longer an entomologist?
Clara: Why do you read them, Prok?
Alfred: I'm trying to find out why people hate this book so.
Clara: You told them their grandmothers and their daughters are masturbating...having premarital sex, sex with each other. What did you expect?

...

Alfred: Do you two have any idea what a delicate time this is? Our enemies are watching everything we do. We can't afford a single slip-up.
Clyde Martin: This has nothing to do with the project.
Alfred: Everything is about the project!
Paul: It's just a---a misunderstanding.
Alfred: No, it's not.! You let things get out ofhand with Martin's wife and now she wants to leave him. Isn't that right, Martin? [Clyde nods] And what about you, Gebhard? Are you planning to leave Agnes and the kids?
Paul: No, of course not.
Alfred: Then end it.
Paul: I've tried.
Alfred: It's not difficult. Just tell her it's over. No explanation necessary.
Paul: All right. Clyde, I'm---I'm very sorry about all of this. [Paul leaves the room]
Alfred: I saw this coming. Gebhard should have nipped it in the bud.
Clyde: You are so full of shit! What are we to you, Prok? We're just lab rats? Is this just another part of the project to prove that sex--No. No, I'm sorry--fucking is nothing more than than friction and harmless fun? Well, let me tell you...that is a risky game, because fucking isn't just something. It's the whole thing. And if you're not careful it will cut you wide open!

Oh, boy. Science meets its own limitations.

Alfred: I thought the rules were clear. No intense romantic entanglements. They only make people's lives unstable.
Wardell: I guess we all can't be as disciplined as you, Prok.

...

Kinsey [trying to persuade a more "adult" audience]: The question of marital infidelity remains one of the most complicated issues facing our society today. Reconciliation of the married individual's desire for a variety of sexual partners and the maintenance of a stable marriage presents a problem which has not been satisfactorily resolved in our culture. The fact is, America is awash in sexual activity - only a small portion of which is sanctioned by society. - [ Whispering Chatter] Sexual morality needs to be reformed... and science will show the way. - [ Whispering Continues ] - Sometimes--I sometimes wonder what this country would look like if the Puritans had stayed at home. What if all the rogues and libertines had crossed the Atlantic instead? [ Constricted Voice ] But the enforcers of chastity are massing once again to dissuade the scientist, intimidate him...convince him to...cease research.

Flashback...

Clyde: Just, uh, one more question. You've just told me your entire history -- childhood, family, career, every person you've ever had sex with -- but there hasn't been a single mention of love.
Alfred: That's because it's impossible to measure love. And as you know, without measurements, there can be no science. But I've been thinking a lot about the problem lately.
Clyde: Oh. Problem?
Alfred: When it comes to love, we're all in the dark.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
iambiguous: a post from Pedro?

iambiguous
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Posts: 38509
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
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### Re: philosophy in film

Full disclosure: I don't like sports. And, in particular, I loathe the manner in which professional sports are used to distract millions from the manner in which our political economy thumps "the masses". As for professional football, to call these guys "heroes" is a disgrace to the human race. In my own opinion, of course.

North Dallas Forty is a not often affectionaite take on this pernicious institution. So, naturally, I loved it.

And it also gives us insights into all the different ways in which a corporation can treat even "a star" as just a piece of meat.

IMDb:

"A semi-fictional account of life as a professional Football (American-style) player. Loosely based on the Dallas Cowboys team of the early 1970s"

And:

"The character of Seth Maxwell (Mac Davis) was allegedly based on quarterback Don Meredith (Meredith was even offered the role); B. A. Strothers (G.D. Spradlin) on Tom Landry, and Phillip Elliott (Nick Nolte) on wide receiver Peter Gent."

NORTH DALLAS FORTY
Directeed by Ted Kotcheff

Seth: You had better learn how to play the game, and I don't mean just the game of football.

...

Conrad Hunter: There's one thing I learned early on in life. The most important thing a man can have.
Phil: What's that, money?
Conrad Hunter: Luck. Luck tells me something about a man. If my people are lucky, they tap into a big field. If not, they can have every geology degree in the world and drill one dry duster after another. Look at me. I'm the luckiet man in the world. Sure as hell ain't brains, is it?

...

Jo Bob: Where's your gun, Elliott?
Phil: Freud says that guns are an extension of your dick, Jo Bob

...

Phil: Jo Bob is here to remind us that the meanest and the biggest get to make all the rules.
Charlotte: Well I don't agree with that.
Phil: Agreement doesn't enter into it.

...

Phil: Oh, hell, they're shooting at cows!

...

Seth: Look, you may keep me on the sports page, but he keeps me out of the obituaries. Where the hell would I be with Jo Bob's confidence destroyed?...Goddamn it, son, what did she expect? These girls know what happens at these parties. That's why they come here.
Phil: She didn't seem like that to me.
Seth: Just lay off Jo Bob. I want you both at your best Monday night.
Phil: Oh, for Christ's sake, I didn't hurt Jo Bob.
Seth: Damn it, just quit aggravating him. Let him have what he wants.
Phil: What he wants? What about what I want?
Seth: He's a baby for Christ's sake. Don't put yourself on his level. Rise above it.

...

Seth: Come on, let's go get in a pile.
Phil: It's the same old pile, Seth.

...

Phil: Hey, Del. You gonna get a shot?
Delma: No shots we me, turkey. I can't stand needles.
Phil: You got the master the game's technology.
Delma: How do you do that. Take those pills and shots, man. They do terrible things to your body.
Phil: If you last long enough you'll realize the only way to survive is the pills and shots.
Delma: Not me, turkey. I got respect for my body.
Phil [as Del walks away]: You'll get past that.

...

Jo Bob: I've never seen titties like yours. Could I show your titties to my friend O.W.?

...

Coach Johnson: This is national TV. So don't pick your noses or scratch your nuts.

...

B.A.: The key to being a professional is consistency. And the computer measures that quality. No one of you is as good as that computer.

...

Phil: Hey, Douglas, isn't this the kind of day you'd rather be by a fire with a good book?
Douglas: Fuck you, faggot.

...

Phil: It's like you told me, Seth. You got to cheat.
Seth: I wrote the book on that, hoss
Phil: I believe it.

...

Seth: I never saw a guy having so much fun and crying at the same time!

...

Seth: You know I'm getting to like the pain.
Phil: Huh?
Seth: Remember when I busted my elbow? I knew it was dislocated the second it happened. When I was laying there, yelling, flopping all over the field in front of all those people, you know what I felt?
Phil: Satisfaction.
Seth: Yeah. I mean, it made me feel like I was doing something important, you know. When the pain got the worst that's when I felt the most secure.
Phil: I hear ya. I hear ya.
Seth: And the answer is "no".
Phil: No, what?
Seth: I ain't never loved nobody.

...

Coach: Our punting team gave them 4.5 yards per kick more than our reasonable goal and 9.9 yards more than our outstanding. Offense--four turnovers. Five scoring opportunities blown. Third down conversions we failed 6 times more than our seasonal average. Pass completions were 49%. That's 6.3% less than reasonable and it's 19% less than our outstanding. That is a negative 19% against Seattle!!

...

Phil: You can always count on me to do whatever it takes to play. Hell coach, I love needles [pause] I guess that's what we call maturity. Huh?

...

Phil: What are you going to call the restaurants?
Jo Bob: "Jo Bob's Fine Foods"
Phil: "Jo Bob's Fine Foods - Eat Here, or I'll Kill Ya!"

...

Seth: Hell, Poot, we're all whores; might as well be the best

...

Phil: [as he receives a numbing injection in his knee] Better football through chemistry.

...

Monsignor [right before the Big Game]: Dear Lord, I ask your blessing on these brave boys as they venture out to battle.
Coach: TAKE OFF YOUR FUCKING HATS! Sorry, Monsignor.
Monsignor: We ask not for victory, not for glory, not for fame. We ask only for the preservation of our bodies and of our minds. Bless also the entire Hunter family who have so unselfishly given us everything we need for victory. Amen.
Player: LET'S GO KILL THOSE COCKSUCKERS!!

...

O.W.: Jesus, Jo Bob, we hurt him bad.
Jo Bob: Fuck him. Fuck him.

...

Jo Bob [to Phil]: You played a good game out there. A good game.
Coach [to Jo Bob] I wish we could say the same thing for you, Jo Bob. You should have studied Weeks tendencies.
Jo Bob: I thought I did.
Coach: You don't listen. We would have won if we'd studied those tendencies.
O.W.: Aw shit! You never bring us anything to bring in the game except your fucking facts and tendencies! To you, it's just a business. But to us it's still got to be a sport.
Coach: You're supposed to be professional!
O.W.: We work harder than anyone to win. But when we're dead tired in the fourth quarter winning's got to be more than just money.
Coach: You're hired to do a job!
O.W.: I don't want no fucking job! I want to play football, you assshole! I want some feeling! I want some fucking team spitit!!
Coach: This ain't no high school. You don't have to love each other to play.
O.W.: That's what I mean, you bastard. Everytime I call it a game, you call it a business. And everytime I call it a business, you call it a game. You and B.A. and all the other coaches are chicken shit cocksuckers. No feeling for the game at all. You'll win, but it will just be numbers on a scoreboard. Numbers, that's all you care about. That's not enough for me!
Eliot: Far out!

...

Phil [to Charlotte]: I thought I was going to start that game. Hell, I even shot up my knee. But they weren't going to let me start. They were just using me to get another ball player to deaden his leg.

...

Phil: But what's important is my performing. The moment of the catch, that feeling, that high. Hell, I can take the crap. I can take the manipulation. I can take the pain. As long as I get a chance to play every Sunday.
Charlotte: I think that this game is twisting your mind.
Phil: The game is not twisting my mind. I know the game. It's the rules they make up. I'm gonna play. So I'm going by their rules.
Charlotte: You can't separate one from the other.
Phil: Yeah, but I can't buck their system or fight them.

...

Phil: You know, when you think about it, they're not worse than anybody else, really.

Oh yeah? Have "they" got a surprise in store for him. Now he is a "suspect".

Phil: Are you part of this, B.A.?
B.A.: Phil, you have the best hands in football. But there's a lot more to this business than ability.
Phil: No, no, no, B.A., you're wrong. You're wrong because it is ability. It is what I can do with these hands, and that's why I play the game.
B.A.: It's dedication. It's discipline. It's sacrifice. You can't take all the time. You have to give something back to the game.
Phil: For Christ's sake, my nose is busted. I can't even breathe through it. I can hardly stand up. I haven't slept more than three hours at a stretch in two years. Isn't that giving something back? There's pieces of me scattered from here to Pittsburg. Isn't that giving something back to the game?
B.A.: It's your childish attitude. You hurt the team.
Phil: Team? Aw, for Christ's sake, B.A., we're not the team! [pointing to the Hunters] They're the team! These guys right here, B.A., they're the team. We're the equipment. We're the jockstraps, the helmets. And they just depreciate us and take us off their goddamn tax returns!

...

Phil: You are right, B.A., thank you. It's time to put away childish things.

...

Seth: Things get ugly up there?
Phil: Pretty ugly.
Seth: My name come up?

...

Seth: Hoss, I appreciate you keeping my name out of it.
Phil: Ah, no sweat [pause] You knew about it? You know everything don't you, Max?
SethL That I do, Poot. That I do.

...

Seth: Hey, Poot.
Phil: Yeah?
Seth: You got any of them ole pain killers?
Phil [pulling a bottle of pills out of his pocket and tossing it over]: You keep em, cowboy. You're gonna need them.

...

Phil: Hey Seth. We really had 'em worried in Chicago, didn't we?
Seth: Best catch I ever seen Poot.
Phil: Not a bad pass either.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
iambiguous: a post from Pedro?

iambiguous
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### Re: philosophy in film

I have never had even the slightest inclination to gamble. So it is particularly hard for me to fathom the mind of someone who actually gets addicted to it. "Punters" in other words. Especially casino gambling. The "games" here revolve almost entirely around luck. At least with things like poker you can become good at it. There are actual skills to be learned.

But I am addicted to other things so...so how much different can it really be?

Anyway, this film is really more about being on the grift. And if you can con your own flesh and blood [and for their own good no less] the world's your oyster.

So, in this world, who are the winners and who are the losers?

IMDb:

"Disqualified from the Academy Awards after being shown on Dutch television."

Huh?

CROUPIER [1998]
Directed by Mike Hodges

Giles: Let me give you three words of advice, Jack. Don't give up. Stick with it. Who persists wins. That's my motto. Write, write, write.
Jack [voiceover]: And Jack had three words for, Giles. Go fuck yourself.

...

Jack [voiceover]: Marion saw life differently. She was a romantic. And thought he was too.

...

Jack: [voiceover]: Now he had become the still center of that spinning wheel of misfortune. The world turned 'round him leaving him miraculously untouched. The croupier had reached his goal. He no longer heard the sound of the ball.

...

Jack [voiceover]: Welcome back Jack, to the house of addiction.

...

Marion [near to tears]: What do I mean to you? I want to know. Tell me.
Jack: You're my conscience.
Marion: Haven't you got a conscience of your own?

...

Jack: If I see you cheating again, I'll report it.
Matt: I don't get you. Even if it was true, which it isn't, what the fuck difference would it make to you?
Jack: Because if a supervisor knew I'd seen you and I hadn't reported it, I'd lose my job as well. And I can't afford that.
Matt: So it's Mr Clean. Wise up, Jack, this whole business is bent. The casino is nothing but legal theft. And that's OK. It's the system. Half the punters who come in are using stolen money, drug money, they haven't earned it. We earn our money.
Jack [voiceover]: Matt was an escape artist. Like Jack's father.

...

Jack [voiceover]: Jack could hear Matt saying it..."I want to fuck the whole world over. It's my mission." At last he had found what he'd been looking for. A clear and simple theme. And a protagonist to act it out. Little Matt. Chapter One...

...

Woman at table [to Jack]: What's that aftershave you're wearing?
Jack [voiceover]: Never converse with the punters. It slows things down. Speed is volume, and volume is profit for the casino. Aim at 40 spins an hour.

...

Jack [voiceover as Jani sits down at the table]: Now, this was no coincidence...

...

Jack [voiceover]: Jani de Villiers had just entered his book...

...

Jani: Do you believe in astrology?
Jack: Absolutely not! But then, I'm a Gemini.

...

Marion: I don't like it at all. You had a wonderful character before, the Gambler. He was so romantic.
Jack: He was a loser. This guy's a croupier. He can't lose. People have shat on him all his life. Now he's in control. He's a winner.
Marion: Is that your idea of a winner? He doesn't give a shit about anyone. He uses people and...
Jack: It's because of the sex, isn't it? You don't like the sex in it.
Marion: I don't give a fuck about the sex. Most men'll fuck a lamppost. He's just a miserable zombie. Is that the way you feel now? Is that what's happened to you?
Jack: Marion. It's a book.
Marion: Oh really. Then why is he called Jake. Why don't you come clean and call him Jack. There's no hope in it.
Jack: It's the truth.
Marion: Without hope there's no point to anything.
Jack: Now wait a minute. What's so hopeful about your job? Spending the day catching poor people stealing. You said yourself the organised gangs get away with it. At least in the casino everybody gets caught. Rich or poor, the odds are the same. It's all relative.
Marion: Crap. It's not relative. It's unfair. Like your casino. It's designed unfair. And your croupier's a little shit because he goes along with it.

...

Bella [to Marion]: Your boyfriend fucked me, smoked my dope, then shopped me. What do you think of that? I can't get a job now. [to Jack] You bastard. You're no different from Matt. A pair of vicious little shits, that's what you are.
Bella: You're all scumbags.
Marion: I agree.

...

Jack: Hang on tightly, let go lightly.

...

Jack: Gambling's not about money...Gambling's about not facing reality, ignoring the odds.

...

Marion: You're an enigma...you are an enigma.
Jack: [voiceover] I'm not an enigma, just a contradiction.

...

Jack: [voiceover] A wave of elation came over him; he was hooked again... watching people lose.

...

Jack: "The world breaks everyone, and afterwards, some are strong at the broken places"-Ernest Hemingway.
Matt: Wasn't he the one who shot himself?

...

Jack [voiceover]: The world breaks everyone, and afterwards many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break, it kills - it kills the very good, and the very gentle, and the very brave, impartially. If you are none of these, you can be sure it will kill you, too, but there will be no special hurry.

...

Jack [voiceover]: Chapter 13. It's all numbers, the croupier thought. Spin of the wheel, turn of the card, time of your life, date of your birth, year of your death. In the book of Numbers the Lord said, "Thou shall count thy steps."

...

Jack [voiceover]: Jack wondered why he was even considering it. Ten grand. In cash. That was why. But Jack didn't need the money. His father would have taken it, like a shot. But his father was a gambler. He was always broke. Jack suddenly realised... it was Jake who was considering it.

...

Jack [voiceover]: He watched their faces as they lost hour after hour, night after night, relentlessly. He questioned the conventional wisdom that gamblers are self- destructive. He had come to believe that in reality, they want to destroy everyone else - their families and loved ones, everyone. Fuck over the whole world...
[The white balls lands. The faces of the losers, resigned, desperate, angry.... The punters who are cleaned out get off their chairs, tear up their sequence cards, turn and walk away, quickly, slowly.]
Jack [voiceover]: Without emotion he watched them go. Jake stayed.

...

Jack [voiceover] So that was it. The final card. Blackjack. His father, eight thousand miles and twenty seven years away, was still dealing to his son Jack from the bottom of the deck. [a smile spreads across his face] But Jake the croupier had a sense of humour.

...

Jack [voiceover]: Now he had reached the point where he no longer heard the sound of the ball...the spin of the wheel had brought him home to the place where he was born...The croupier's mission was accomplished....At last he was Master of the Game. He had aquired the power to make you lose.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
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iambiguous
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### Re: philosophy in film

I'm trying to imagine my reaction if the blurb said, "based on a true story". Could someone get into a frame of mind this "mysterious drifter" embodies "in reality"? But then [for all I know] maybe it is based on "actual events".

To wit: breaking into the homes of families on vacation, using their stuff but then, before leaving, doing all the household chores and fixing anything that's broken.

Not exactly an epic love story but certainly one worthy fantacizing about. As we flit about between reality and dreams.

3 IRON [Bin-jip] 2004
Written and directed by Ki-duk Kim

Husband: You wanted to go on a vacation so badly. What's wrong now?
Wife: You call that a vacation? It was hell
[young son points toy gun at father's head]
Father: Get rid of that right now!
[son goes over to mother and points the gun at her]
Mother: Shoot me. Shoot me. Please, make my day.

...

Detective: Illegal entry. Murder. Abandoning a dead body. Kidnapping. And what did you do to that woman? What did you do to her to keep her so silent?

...

Cop: Sir, he's clean. Also, I called some of the houses he shot with the camera, and they said nothing was stolen.
Detective: Really?

...

Cop: Sir, the autopsy results have come out. It's not murder, it's lung cancer.
Detective: What? Lung cancer? Are they sure?
Cop: Yes, sir. He was delicately shrouded. Apart from a real ceremony, he buried his body better than any son could.

...

Detective: Smile again.

...

Prison guard: You son of a bitch! Why do you keep hiding? Wanna disappear from the world altogether?

International trailer:
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
iambiguous: a post from Pedro?

iambiguous
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Posts: 38509
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### Re: philosophy in film

Over and again [here] I link existential philosophy to dasein and dasein to the complexities of human psychology. But I don't pretend to grasp all the complex ways in which the "professionals" go about understanding it "out in the world".

I like this film in part because I am always attracted to movies in which the "action" revolves around an exchange of intellectual narratives. In particular, those grounded at least in part in the actual behaviors of human "subjects". And let's face it, sexuality is everywhere.

Does "psych-o-analysis" work here? Sure, for some. But, obviously, not for others.

In some respects this is a film about men trying to rationalize sex. In both a psychoanalytic and a philosophical sense. But it is perspective largely set apart from, say, pregnancy. Or STDs. Or socialization. Or politics. Especially back then.

That stuff just doesn't seem to come up.

IMDb:

"Otto Hans Adolf Gross was an early disciple of Sigmund Freud who became an anarchist. Carl Jung said his worldview changed when he attempted to analyze Gross and had the tables turned on him. Gross was ostracized by the psychoanalytic movement and not included in histories of the psychoanalytic and psychiatric establishments. He died of pneumonia in Berlin on 13 February 1920, after being found in the street, near-starved and freezing."

A DANGEROUS METHOD
Directed by David Cronenberg

Jung: Now. Have you any idea what may have brought on these attacks you suffer from?
Sabina [contorted, struggling to answer]: Humiliation.

...

Emma: Perhaps she's the one.
Jung: What one?
Emma: The one you've been looking for. For your experimental treatment. The talking cure.

...

Jung [of his military service]: It's a complete waste of my time. Writing prescriptions for athlete's foot and examining cocks from morning to night.
Emma: Is that what you do?

...

Jung: Tell me about the first time you can remember being beaten by your father.
Sabina: I suppose I was about four... I broke a plate... or... yes... and he told me to go in the little room and... take my clothes off. Then he came in and spanked me. I was so frightened, I wet myself, so he hit me again and again.

...

Jung: And after that first time, he beat you a lot?
Sabina: Oh, yes... yes... and when he was away, my mother beat me... but that wasn't at all... it wasn't the same as...
Jung: That first time, how did you feel about what was happening?
Sabina [after a long silence, scarcely audible]: I liked it.
Jung: Would you repeat that, please? I couldn't quite hear.
Sabina: I liked it. It excited me.
Jung: And did you continue to like it?
Sabina [after a long groan]: Yes... yes... before long he only had to say to me to go to the little room and I would start to get wet...

...

Sabina: Whenever he beat one of my brothers - or even just threatened - that was enough...I'd have to go and lie down and touch myself...later, at school, anything would set it off...any kind of humiliation...I looked for any humiliation...even here... when you hit my coat with your stick, I had to come back right away... I was so excited. There's no hope for me. I'm vile and filthy and corrupt. I must never be let out of here.

This is totally alien to me. What am I supposed to make of a reaction that seems so bizarre?

Jung: Perhaps the terms themselves should be reviewed: if, for instance, we could come up with some milder term than 'libido', we might not encounter such emotional resistance, it would make the teaching side of things much easier...
Freud: Is euphemism a good idea? Once they work out what we actually mean, they'll be just as appalled as ever.
Jung: I take your point, but I still think it's worth trying to sweeten the pill when it comes to questions of sexuality...

...

Jung: ...we continue to unearth new material: for example, the extraordinary procedure she devised as a small child, where she would sit on one heel, attempt to defecate and, at the same time, try to prevent herself from defecating. She said this gave rise to the most blissful feelings.
Freud: A nice story. Those of my patients who remain fixated at the anal stage of their erotic development often come up with the most amusing details. And of course all of them are finicky, compulsively tidy, stubborn and extremely stingy with money. No doubt your Russian conforms to this pattern.
Jung: Well, no: she doesn't.
[Freud frowns: he puffs at his cigar, evidently somewhat put off].
Jung: The masochistic aspects of her condition are much more deeply rooted than any anal fixations we may have uncovered.
Freud: Well, perhaps it's a Russian thing.

...

Jung: But might the objections of the medical establishment and the general public not be caused by your insistence on the exclusively sexual interpretation of the clinical material?
Freud: All I'm doing is pointing out what experience indicates to me must be the truth... And I can assure you that in a hundred years' time our work will still be rejected. Columbus, you know, had no idea what county he'd discovered; like him, I'm in the dark: all I know is that I've set foot on the shore and the country exists.

...

Jung: Yes?
Freud: I think perhaps you should entertain the possibility that it represents your penis.

...

Freud: Of course, there's the added difficulty, more ammunition for our enemies, that all of us here in Vienna, in our psychoanalytical circle, are Jews.
Jung: I don't see what difference that makes.
Freud: That, if I may say so, is an exquisitely Protestant remark.

...

Jung: I tried to tackle him about his obsession with sexuality, his insistence on interpreting every symptom in sexual terms, but he's completely inflexible....There must be more than one hinge into the universe.

...

Jung: So you're not a believer in monogamy?
Gross: For a neurotic like myself, I can't possibly imagine a more stressful concept.
Jung: And you don't find it necessary or desirable to exercise some restraint, as a contribution, say, to the smooth functioning of civilisation?
Gross: What, and make myself ill?
Jung: I should have thought that some form of sexual repression would have to be practised in any rational society.
Gross: No wonder the hospitals are bulging at the seams.

...

Jung: You think Freud's right? You think all neurosis is of exclusively sexual origin?
Gross: I think Freud's obsession with sex probably has a great deal to do with the fact that he never gets any.
Jung: You could be right.

...

Gross: If there's one thing I've learned in my short life, it's this: never repress anything.

...

Gross: It seems to me the measure of the true perversity of the human race, that one of its very few reliably pleasurable activities should be the subject of so much hysteria and repression.

...

Sabina: It's clear that the subject I'm studying is entirely grounded in sexuality. So naturally I'm becoming more and more acutely aware of the fact that I have no sexual experience.

She then kisses Jung full on the mouth. Uh, oh.

Jung: I knew that was going to happen.
Freud: What?
Jung: I felt something like that was going to happen. I had a kind of burning in my stomach.
Freud: What are you talking about? It's the heating, the wood in the bookcase just cracked, that's all.
Jung: No, it's what's known as a catalytic exteriorisation phenomenon.
Freud: A what?
Jung: A catalytic exteriorisation phenomenon.
Freud: Don't be ridiculous.

...

Freud: I've fought against the idea for some time, but I suppose there must be some kind of indissoluble link between sex and death. I don't feel the relationship between the two is quite as you've portrayed it, but I'm most grateful to you for animating the subject in such a stimulating way. The only slight shock was your introduction, at the very end of your paper, of the name of Christ.
Sabina: Are you completely opposed to any kind of religious dimension in our field?
Freud: In general, I don't care if a man believes in Rama, Marx or Aphrodite, as long as he keeps it out of the consulting room.

...

Sabina: Is that what's at the bottom of your dispute with Dr. Jung?
Freud: I have no dispute with Dr. Jung. I was simply mistaken about him. I thought he was going to be able to carry our work forward, after I was gone; I didn't bargain for all that second-rate mysticism and self-aggrandising shamanism.
Sabina: He's trying to find some way forward,so that we don't just have to tell our patients, this is why you are the way you are; he wants to be able to say, we can show you what you might want to become.
Freud: Playing God, in other words. We have no right to do that. The world is as it is: understanding and accepting that is the way to psychic health. What good can we do if our aim is simply to replace one delusion with another?

...

Freud [fainting, pitching forward, ricocheting off the table and ending in a heap on the floor]: How sweet it must be to die...

In the interim he and Jung engage in a vitriolic exchange of letters abominating each other in the intellectual equivalent of a pissing contest. What Tom Wolfe [among others no doubt] once described as the Male Battle.

Jung [to Sabina]: What he'll never accept is that what we understand has got us nowhere. We have to go into uncharted territory. We have to go back, to the sources of everything we believe. I don't just want to open a door and show the patient his illness, squatting there like a toad. I want to find a way to help the patient reinvent himself, to send him off on a journey, at the end of which is waiting the person he was always intended to be.

With respect to this, I've got to swing more in the direction of Freud.

Afterword

Otto Gross starved to death in Berlin in 1919.

Sigmund Freud was driven out of Vienna by the Nazis and died of cancer in London in 1939.

Sabina Spielrein returned to Russia, trained a number of the most distinguished analysts of the new Soviet Union and finally returned to practise medicine in her native town, Rostov-on-Don. In 1941, by now a widow, she and her two daughters were taken by Nazi occupying forces to a local synagogue and shot.

Carl Gustav Jung suffered a prolonged nervous breakdown during the First World War, from which he emerged to become, eventually, the world's leading psychologist. He outlived his wife, EMMA, and his mistress, TONI WOLFF, and died peacefully in 1961.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
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iambiguous
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### Re: philosophy in film

Most of us know little of this world personally. Many not even remotely. So we don't know how much of it depicted here is largely theatrical bullshit. But on either side of the line the adreniline is always pumping. And that's the point. Next to that the actual people in their lives don't stand a chance.

IMDb

"The meeting between Robert De Niro and Al Pacino over coffee was shot at Kate Mantilini on Wilshire Blvd. in Beverly Hills. The L.A. mainstay is a noted top spot for a stylish late supper. The restaurant now has "heat" spelled in neon above the door and a large poster of the actors in the now famous scene. Diners may request the very table featured in the scene, table #71, which wait staff are familiar with as "The Table", and are happy to seat De Niro Pacino fans at their famous meeting place."

Great fucking soundtrack.

That thing on Kilmer's elbow? To the best of my knowledge it's the real McCoy.

HEAT [1995]
Written and directed by Michael Mann

Vincent: It's like you said. All I am is what I'm going after.

...

Michael: Stop talkin', okay, Slick.

...

Michael: Hey slick, see that shit comin' outta their ears? They can't fucking hear you! Cool it!!

...

Justine: Didn't call, didn't show. We waited for you until 10:30.
Vincent: Does this guy have any idea what's going on with this kid?

Does he?

Uniformed Officer: You taking this one? Or does it stay in Division?
Vincent: Does this look like gangbangers working the local 7-11 to you?

...

Richard: I can get killed for telling you this shit.
Vincent: You can get killed walking your doggie!

...

Vincent: I got three dead bodies on a sidewalk off Venice Boulevard, Justine. I'm sorry if the goddamn...chicken...got...overcooked.

...

Neil: How do you get this information?
Kelso: Just comes to you. This stuff just flies through the air. It's beamed out all over the place. You just have to know how to grab it.

...

Neil: Van Zant. How is he?

...

Lillian: I met the manager. Is that the boss?
Donald: I did time for what that motherfucker does every day!
Lillian: Baby - can you just handle it till we find you something new? Can you do that?
Donald: Ain't a hard time been invented that I cannot handle...What you hangin' with me for, Lily?
Lillian: Because I'm proud of you.
Donald: [snickers] You're proud of me? What the hell're you proud of me for?
Lillian: Come on home.

...

Neil: Jimmy said, "You want to be making moves on the street? Have no attachments. Allow nothing to be in your life that you cannot walk out on in 30 seconds if you spot the heat around the corner." Remember that?
Chris [after long pause]: For me, the sun rises and sets with her, man.

...

Donald: I'm a great grill man.
Solenko: Good for you. Here you'll mop the toilets, hit the dishwasher, bus tables and empty the garbage. Give me a hard time, I'll report you loaded, drunk or stealing and I will violate you back to prison. Twenty-five percent of your take-home pay kicks back to me. Rules of the game. Call your parole officier Grierson, check it out. Change in the back.

...

Waingro: You don't have a truth-telling style.
Hooker: What are you talking about?
Waingro: You don't know what this is? The Grim Reaper's visiting with you.

...

Chris: Charlene's gonna leave me.
Neil: Why?
Chris: Not enough steaks in the freezer.

...

Van Zant: What are you doing?
Neil: What am I doing? I'm talking to an empty telephone.
Van Zant: I don't understand.
Neil: 'Cause there is a dead man on the other end of this fuckin' line.

...

Michael: You figure the bank is the best thing to do? This is the best thing to do?
Neil: I've got plans. I'm going away after, so the reward is worth the stretch. But Elaine takes good care of you. You got plenty put away. You got T-bonds, real estate. If I were you I would be smart and cut loose of this.
Michael [after thinking about it]: Well, for me, the action is the juice. I'm in.

...

Nate: ...he's one of those guys out there prowling around at night, dedicated.
Neil: It's worth the stretch.
Nate: This guy can hit or miss. You can't miss once. You sure?
Neil: I am sure.

...

Vincent: Oh, I see, what I should do is, er, come home and say "Hi honey! Guess what? I walked into this house today, where this junkie asshole just fried his baby in a microwave, because it was crying too loud. So let me share that with you. Come on, let's share that, and in sharing it, we'll somehow, er, cathartically dispel all that heinous shit". Right? Wrong.
Justine: You prefer the normal routine. We fuck, then you lose the power of speech.

...

Justine: You don't live with me, you live among the remains of dead people. You sift through the detritus, you read the terrain, you search for signs of passing, for the scent of your prey, and then you hunt them down. That's the only thing you're committed to. The rest is the mess you leave as you pass through

...

Vincent: I'm angry. I'm very angry, Ralph. You know, you can ball my wife if she wants you to. You can lounge around here on her sofa, in her ex-husband's dead-tech, post-modernistic bullshit house if you want to. But you do not get to watch my fucking television set!

...

[Neil asks Donald to fill in for Trejo]
Donald: Yeah, man. Fuck, yeah. You're on.
Neil: Out back in five.

...

Vincent: My life's a disaster zone. I got a stepdaughter so fucked up because her real father's this large-type asshole. I got a wife, we're passing each other on the down-slope of a marriage - my third - because I spend all my time chasing guys like you around the block. That's my life.
Neil: A guy told me one time, "Don't let yourself get attached to anything you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you feel the heat around the corner." Now, if you're on me and you gotta move when I move, how do you expect to keep a...a marriage?

...

Vincent: You know, we are sitting here, you and I, like a couple of regular fellas. You do what you do, and I do what I gotta do. And now that we've been face to face, if I'm there and I gotta put you away, I won't like it. But I tell you, if it's between you and some poor bastard whose wife you're gonna turn into a widow, brother, you are going down.
Neil: There is a flip side to that coin. What if you do got me boxed in and I gotta put you down? Cause no matter what, you will not get in my way. We've been face to face, yeah. But I will not hesitate. Not for a second.

...

Vincent: What are you, a monk?
Neil: I have a woman.
Vincent: What do you tell her?
Neil: I tell her I'm a salesman.
Vincent: So then, if you spot me coming around that corner... you just gonna walk out on this woman? Not say good bye?
Neil: That's the discipline.

...

Neil: We want to hurt no one! We're here for the bank's money, not your money. Your money is insured by the federal government, you're not gonna lose a dime! Think of your families, don't risk your life. Don't try and be a hero.

...

Neil: Did you say anything about how we were getting out?
Trejo [barely alive]: I don't think so.
Neil: Come on.
Trejo: I don't remember.
Neil: I'll call a medic.
Trejo: I'm not going to make it. I can't feel a bloody thing. My Anna's gone. She's gone. Don't leave me like this. Please. Don't leave me like this.

...

Neil: I don't even know what I'm doing anymore. I know life is short, whatever time you get is luck. You want to walk? You walk right now. Or on your own on your own you choose to come with me. And all I know is...all I know is there's no point in me going anywhere anymore if it's going to be alone without you.

...

Neil: [has gun on Waingro] Look at me. Look at me!
Waingro: [doesn't want to and whimpers]
Neil: Look at me!
Waingro: [slowly pathetically looks upward]
Neil: [fires two shots into Waingro's chest]
Waingro: [makes some wild horrible gasping sound]
Neil: [aims upward and fires a third shot, this one into Waingro's head]

...

Neil: Told you I'm never going back...
Vincent: Yeah.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
iambiguous: a post from Pedro?

iambiguous
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Posts: 38509
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

Not even remotely the sort of thing one usually associates with Oliver Stone. No Big Themes here. No politics. Just a small town with small characters. But it's a gem.

Sean Penn, Nicke Nolte and Jennifer Lopez are the stars. And they are very good here. But it is Billy Bob Thornton, Joaquin Phoenix and Claire Danes that steal -- steal -- the show.

And look for Julie Hagerty's Flo.

I don't know if intentional but this is a very funny movie.

Anyway, the double cross is complicated enough without it becoming the triple cross. Or, if you count Virgil the sheriff, the quadruple cross.

Let's hear it now: Show me the fucking money!

IMDb

"The town of Superior, Arizona, actually exists."

And:

"When a journalist asked Oliver Stone why he did such a film, Stone responded that he wanted to make a small film that he would enjoy seeing as a teenager."

U-TURN
Directed by Oliver Stone

Bobby: Fix it, or I'll go someplace else.
Darrell: Someplace else? That's 50 miles from here.

...

Bobby: See, that's the difference between you and me...you live here and I'm just passing through.

...

Bobby: Where can I get something to drink?
Darrell [points toward town]: There's a diner. It ain't much. Us simple folk like it.
Bobby: I'll be back in a couple of hours. Just be real careful with it.
Darrell: It's just a car.
Bobby: No, It's a '64 1/2 Mustang Convertible.

...

Grace: Everybody has a past. They have pain and something they want. What is it you want?
Bobby: The same thing you do.
Grace: Really? I want to hang drapes.

...

Bobby: Look, if I'd known she was married...
Jake: It wouldn't have made a difference. You're a man without scruples. I can smell it on you. Yeah, that's the sweat of a man that hasn't an honest bone in his body. Don't be offended. A man without ethics is a free man. Does whatever he wants to. I envy you.

...

Jake: I bet she had you hard as a rock, wiggling her ass in your face. You wanted to pull her pants down and hog her out, and then I bust in. You got a temper. I bet you just wanted to snap her neck. I bet you just wanted to kill her [pause] Would you?
Bobby: Would I what?
Jake: Would you kill her?

...

Bobby: What the hell happened to my car?!!
Darrell: I had to change your bottom hose too, but it runs like a dream now.
Boby: How much?
Darrell: Let's see...You got parts and labour. Let's just call it...$150. Boby:$150! To replace a radiator hose?
Darrell: A hose in a 1964 1/2 Mustang.
Bobby: It's just a Ford, not a Ferrari!
Darrell: It's not just a Ford. It's a 1964 1/2 Mustang.
Bobby: What's that got to do with it?!
Darrell: I don't know. But it's the reason I'm living here, and you're just passing through.

...

Bobby: I don't have a credit card.
Darrell: Then you'll have to work this off.
Bobby: I've got a Movado. It's worth $7,800. You could sell it for that. Darrell [takes the watch]: I can't see no numbers. Bobby: That's why it's expensive! Look at the gold. Darrell: No day, no dates. Far as I can tell, this ain't worth a duck's fart. [shows Bobby his watch] I got this for$3.75. It's got all kinds of doodads. I'll stick with that.

...

Bobby: You son of a bitch! My lawyer will shut you down!!
Darrell: No credit cards, but you got a lawyer? Listen, you can sweet talk me all you want to, but didn't you read this sign?
Bobby: What fucking sign? I want my car!!
Darrell: And I want my $150. ... Bobby [on phone]: Cici, it's Bobby. I know it's been a while, but I'm in a jam. Cici: And you need some money, right? Bobby: Yeah,$150.
Cici: No, you stole my CDs.
Bobby: I did not steal your CDs.
Cici: Who did, my ex-roomate that you fucked?
Bobby: Okay, where's my Mr. Coffee?

...

Bobby: Mom, it's me Bobby. Your son.
Mom: You are to me.

...

Bobby: A beer. A Beck's.
Flo: Ain't got Beck's. A-1, Coor's?
Bobby: Heineken?
Flo: No. We've got Miller.
Bobby: Genuine Draft?
Flo: No, just regular plain old Miller. And you can fucking take it or you can fucking leave it.
Bobby: I'll fucking take it.

...

Bobby: And a waitress named Flo. Chist.

...

Toby: What are you doing with my girl? I asked you a question.
Jenny: Toby, we was just talking.
Toby: Shut up. Get back to our table. [to Bobby] Don't make me ask you again. What are you doing with my girl?
Bobby: I wasn't doing anything.
Toby: That's not how it looked to me. You tried to make time with her.
Bobby: Is everyone in this fucking town on drugs?!

...

Jenny: You like Patsy Cline? I just love her. I wonder how come she don't put out no more new records.
Bobby: I've had time to get over it.

...

Blind Man: Your lies are old but you tell them pretty good.

...

Toby: I don't think you know who I am. The name's Toby N. Tucker. People round here call me TNT. You know why?
Bobby: Because they're not very imaginative?
Toby: 'Cause I'm just like dynamite, boy, and when I go off, somebody gets hurt.

...

Jenny: Bye, Mister. Don't go nowhere without me. I wanna have your love child.

...

Jake: It looks like we've got ourselves a contract.
Bobby: Do we shake hands?
Jake: Well, If you can't trust the man you've just hired to kill your wife...

...

Grace: I bet, right now, you don't know if you want to kill me....or fuck me.

...

Bobby: There's nothing I know more about than being in a mess.

...

Bobby: You sure see a lot for a blind man.
Blind man: I'm blind, but that don't mean I can't see. We're all eyes in the same head. Everything is everything.
Bobby: What?
Blind man: Everything is nothing too.
Bobby: Yeah, well maybe one day I'll have time to sit on a corner and spout wise.

...

Toby: Mister!
Bobby: Oh, shit...

...

Toby: You don't know me. I'm psycho-crazy!
Bobby: Yeah, yeah, you're TNT and when you go off somebody gets hurt.

...

Jenny: It don't matter if you beat him all up and knock out all his teeth, 'cause we love each other. We're gonna run off and I'm gonna have his love child!
Bobby: Would you shut up!!!

...

Jake [to the sheriff]: What have you got there? Some trash?

...

Sheriff: Kind of peculiar how things happen. A man's car breaks down. There's a robbery, people get killed. All that money... And now...now old Jake is out looking for his young wife. And then you show up.

...

Bobby: You said it was $150 for the hose. Darrell: Yes, but this morning I had to replace a gasket. That's$50 more.
Bobby: I didn't ask you to replace it.
Darrell: It was shot.
Bobby: I don't give a fuck. I didn't tell you you could do it, and you can't do unauthorised work.
Darrell: Didn't you read the sign? Am I supposed to let you drive out of here with a bad gasket? Then you get in an accident and get killed, or worse. Who do they blame? Me. And there goes my reputation.
Bobby: What reputation?! You're just an ignorant, inbred tumbleweed hick!

...

Bobby: Goddamn it, you son of a bitch! You son of a bitch!!
Darrell: There you go, sweet-talking me again.

...

Bobby: What did you do to my trunk?
Darrell: I had to pop the lock. You didn't leave me no trunk keys.
Bobby: You had to get into the trunk?
Darrell: When I work on a car, I work on a car.
Bobby: You motherfucker! You motherfucking, pig-sucking son of a bitch!!
Bobby: FFUUCCKK YOU!!!
Darrell: You're out of control.

...

Toby: It ain't over bitch!!
Jenny: You killed him!!

...

Blind man: That's it. Sun's going down. Regular people go home. Sit around a nice dinner table. They trade stories about the day, the heat, maybe laugh about a little joke or something crazy they did. Then they kiss...sleep...wake up and do it all over again.

...

Bobby: So, we're all just floating like sticks in a stream. Just enjoy the ride, huh?
Bobby: Not me. I've got plans.
Blind man: Nothing makes the Great Spirit laugh harder than a man's plans. We all got plans. I planned on seeing all my life.

...

Bobby: Time's up, old one. Got any last-minute words of wisdom?
Blind man: Yeah. Things ain't always what they seem.

...

Blind man: Cheap bastard. Gave me back my own change.

...

Jake [kissing Bobby on the lips] Now you've tasted both of us.

...

Bobby: 40,000 people die every day, Darrell. How come you're not one of 'em?

...

Darrell: Topped her off for you. No charge.
Bobby: I'm getting the hell out of this shit hole, you're staying. But remember, your prints are all over that gun. And that gun makes you part of the food chain. So if I were you I'd be real careful whose rectum you point your finger at.

...

Bobby: Left foot red.

...

Bobby: We might be starting in the shit, but we're starting some place I've never been before. Together with someone. With you.
Grace: I love you, Bobby.
Bobby: We're going to pull this off, Grace. We're going to pull this off!!

And then they see those flashing lights...

Bobby: You're fucking him too?! Is everybody fucking everybody in this crazy God damn town?!!

...

Bobby: We dump Jake, split the money, then you're on your own.
Grace: Don't leave me. I want to stay with you.
Bobby: So you can sell me out to the next cop that pulls me over?
Grace: Bobby, I was just baiting him. I had to tell him that, just like you told Jake you was gonna kill me. I want to stay with you. Don't you think I care about you?
Bobby: I think you're a lying, backstabbing psycho bitch and one day you'll kill me. But it's nice to know you care.

...

Bobby: ...Arizona.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
iambiguous: a post from Pedro?

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 38509
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

Who had the worst of it, Helen Keller or Christy Brown? Not really a civilized comparison to make I suppose but Helen Keller did not have to endure the burdon of subsisting from day to day in the belly of the working class beast.

This is an amazing life. It may not be the equal of Ms. Keller in terms of renown and accomplishments but in some respects the gaps he had to fill were even greater.

The one thing they did share in common though was love. They had a lot of people around them who loved them with all their heart. So try even to imagine just how hellish it would have been without that.

IMDb

"According to the 'Making of My Left Foot' segment on the Special Edition DVD, Daniel Day-Lewis broke two ribs during filming from assuming the hunched-over position in his wheelchair for weeks of filming. He also would refuse to come out of character. On visits to the set canteen, other people would have to help him with food. On one visit from his English agent, Day-Lewis again refused to come out of character as Christy Brown, and his frustrated agent took off."

And:

"Daniel Day-Lewis acted out the opening scene, as we see in the film, on the first take."

And:

"Many of the scenes were filmed through a mirror, as Daniel Day-Lewis could only manipulate his right foot to perform the actions seen in the film."

MY LEFT FOOT
Written and directed by Jim Sheridan

Bartender: Are you gonna put him in a home, Paddy?
Paddy: He'll go in a coffin before any son of mine will go in a home.
Man: Ah, Paddy, I believe it's the end of the road for you in the breedin' stakes.
Man: Ah, now, what are you goin' to do? You goin' to tie a knot in it?
Bartender: Now, Paddy, there was no need for that.
Paddy: A shut mouth catches no flies.

...

Neighbor: I heard this bangin' and rushed over. She was carryin' Christy down the stairs when she fell. And there he was, lyin' at the bottom of the stairs like a moron. God help her. He's a terrible cross to the poor woman. He has the mind of a three-year-old.

And this then becomes their reality: the exact opposite of the truth.

...

Boy #1 [looking at a picture of a naked woman]: Look at those! They're massive!
Boy #2: What's that?
Boy #1: That's her thing. You put your thing in there for a half an hour and you get a baby. If you do it for an hour you get twins.

...

Paddy [after Christy, using his left foot, spells out M O T H E R on the floor in chalk]: Sweet Jesus. Jesus suffering Christ! He's a Brown! He's a Brown all right. Christy's a Brown!!

...

Paddy [hoisting Christy on his shoulder in the bar]: This is Christy Brown! My son! Genius.

...

Mother: Jesus, Mary and Joseph! What's happened to you?!
Son: It's all right, Ma. It's only coal.
Mother: I know where you got that coal. You know it's a sin to steal. And you know that God is looking down on you right now. And that coal is not coming into this house!

...

Paddy: What have you got in the box, woman?
Mother: Christy's money.
Mother: Money for Christy's wheelchair.
Paddy: Must be 20 pounds in there.
Mother Twenty seven pounds and threepence.
Paddy: We've been freezin' cold, eatin' porridge for breakfast, dinner and tea, and you have twenty seven pounds threepence up the fuckin' chimney?!

...

[Mary won't light his cigarette because it's bad for his health]
Christy: I didn't ask for a fucking lecture. I only asked for a fucking light.

...

Dr. Cole: Christy, if you like, we can work here.
Christy: Fuck off.
Dr. Cole: With speech therapy, I could teach you how to say "fuck off" more clearly.

...

Mother: He's in love with this girl, Eileen Cole.
Paddy: Well, as long as he's getting better.
Mother: He could get hurt, Paddy. A broken body's nothing to a broken heart.

...

Mother: Does that sound like our Christy?
Mother: Not to me, it doesn't.
Mother: I always understood him.
Paddy: Ah, well, nobody else ever did. At least he can function now.
Mother: There's somethin' in that voice that...that disturbs me.
Mother: Too much hope in it.
Mother: There's too much hope in it.

...

Dr. Cole: What do you think about Hamlet?
Christy: A cripple who can't act.
Dr. Cole: He did in the end.
Christy: Too late.

...

Christy: Why did you say you loved me?
Dr. Cole: Because I do love you.
Christy: Ah, you mean platonic love. I've had nothing but platonic love all me life. Do you know what I say? Fuck Plato!

...

[writing a suicide note]
Christy: All is nothing, therefore nothing must end.

...

[Christy's father builds him a house next to his parents]
Mother: Well, Christy, that's the nearest he'll ever come to saying I love you.

...

Mary: Don't worry, Christy, the book is great.
Christy: Well, it's not bad. Do you know what I was going to call it? The Reminiscences of a Mental Defective.
Mary: That's a terrible title.
Christy: It was my blue period.

...

Mary: And you typed all of it with your left foot?
Christy: I didn't do it with my nose.

...

Lord Castlewelland: I must say, I'm honored to be asked to give voice to the words of Christy Brown.

"l was born in the Rotunda Hospital, on June 5th, 1932. There were 22 children in all, of which 13 survived. lt would not be true to say that I am no longer lonely. l have made myself articulate and understood to people in many parts of the world, and this is something we all wish to do whether we're crippled or not. Yet, like everyone else, I am acutely conscious sometimes of my own isolation, even in the midst of people, and I often give up hope of ever being able to really communicate with them. It is only the sort of isolation that every writer or artist must experience in the creative mood if he is to create anything at all. It's like a black cloud sweeping down on me unexpectedly, cutting me off from others, a sort of deaf-muteness. l lay back in my chair while my old left foot beat time to a new rhythm. Now I could relax and enjoy myself completely. l was at peace. Happy."

...

Christy: What'll we drink to?
Mary: Let's drink to Dublin.
Christy: To Dublin? Why?
Mary: Because Christy Brown was born there.

Postscript...

Wiki:

"Brown's health had deteriorated after marrying Carr, despite what was portrayed in My Left Foot. He became mainly a recluse in his last years, which is thought to be a direct result of Carr's influence and perhaps abusive nature. Brown died at the age of 49 after choking during a lamb chop dinner. His body was found to have significant bruising, which led many to believe that Carr had physically abused him. Further suspicions arose after Georgina Hambleton's biography The Life That Inspired My Left Foot, revealed a more accurate and unhealthy version of their relationship. The book portrays Carr as an abusive alcoholic and habitually unfaithful. In Hambleton's book, she quotes Brown's brother, Sean, as saying: 'Christy loved her but it wasn't reciprocated, because she wasn't that kind of person. If she loved him like she said she did, she wouldn't have had affairs with both men and women. I feel she took advantage of him in more ways than one.'"
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
iambiguous: a post from Pedro?

iambiguous
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Posts: 38509
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

Even when speaking the same language things often get lost in translation.

Near the beginning of the film Charlotte tells Bob she majored in philosophy. I'm intrigued. I wonder: How much of that will find it's way into the story? Nope, not even a teeny, tiny bit.

Tokyo is also a character in the film. A scene stealer you might call it. On the other hand, if what it depicts of pop culture over there is reasonably accurate it may well be even more vapid than own own.

And then there's Bill Murrary singing Bryan Ferry's More Than This at a Karoke bar.

IMDb

"Sofia Coppola wrote the lead role specifically for Bill Murray, and later said that if Murray turned it down, she wouldn't have done the movie."

"Scarlett Johansson said that she was reluctant to be filmed in panties until Sofia Coppola modeled the panties herself to show her how they would look."

"For years, no one other than Bill Murray, Scarlett Johansson and Sofia Coppola knew what Bob whispered to Charlotte in the final scene, but on October 28, 2009, a youtube video surfaced containing a slightly enhanced audio of this part of the film with subtitles where more than 20 thousand visitors had a chance to find out that Bob whispered to Charlotte: 'When John is ready for his next business trip, go up to that man and tell him the truth, okay?'"

And, for what it's worth:

LOST IN TRANSLATION
Written and directed by Sofia Coppola

Charlotte: You're probably just having a mid-life crisis. Did you buy a Porsche yet?

...

Bob: What kind of restaurant makes you cook your own food?

...

Premium Fantasy woman: Mr. Kazu sent me, premium fantasy. My stockings. "Lip" them. "Lip" my stockings. Yes, please, "lip" them.
Bob: What?
Premium Fantasy woman: "Lip" them. HEY! "Lip" my stocking!
Bob: Hey? Lip them? Lip them? What?!

...

[rolling around on the floor, waving her legs in the air]
Premium Fantasy woman: Oh Mr. Harris! Don't touch me! Mr. Bob Harris! Just "lip" my stocking!

...

Bob: This is not whiskey. This is iced tea. If you gave me real whiskey--
Naka: I need mysterious face. Can you show mysterious?
Bob: Mysterious. I think I know what you want. You want this, right?
Naka: I need more mysterious and, uh, more mysterious.
Bob: Yeah. I'll just try to think, "Where the hell's the whiskey?"

...

Naka: You know double-O-7?
Bob: He drinks martinis, but all right.

...

Kelly: Alright. Listen, I'm under Evelyn Waugh. Shh, okay?
Charlotte: [after Kelly leaves] Evelyn Waugh? Evelyn Waugh was a man.
John: Oh, come on, she's nice. What? You know, not everybody went to Yale.

...

Bob [on a runaway step machine going faster and faster]: Help!!!

...

Director: [in Japanese] Mr. Bob-san, you are relaxing in your study. On the table is a bottle of Suntory whiskey. Got it? Look slowly, with feeling, at the camera, and say it gently - say it as if you were speaking to an old friend. Just like Bogie in Casablanca, "Here's looking at you, kid" - Suntory time.
Translator: Umm. He want you to turn, looking at camera. OK?
Bob: That's all he said?
Translator: Yes. Turn to camera.
Bob: All right. Does he want me to turn from the right, or turn from the left?
Translator: [to director, in Japanese] Uh, umm. He's ready now. He just wants to know if he's supposed to turn from the left or turn from the right when the camera rolls. What should I tell him?
Director: [in Japanese] What difference does it make! Makes no difference! Don't have time for that! Got it, Bob-san? Just psych yourself up, and quick! Look straight at the camera. At the camera. And slowly. With passion. Straight at the camera. And in your eyes there's... passion. Got it?
Translator: [to Bob] Right side. And with intensity. OK?
Bob: Is that everything? It seemed like he said quite a bit more than that.
Director: [to Bob, in Japanese] Listen, listen. This isn't just about whiskey. Understand? Imagine you're talking to an old friend. Gently. The emotions bubble up from the bottom of your heart. And don't forget, psych yourself up!
Translator: Like an old friend. And, into the camera.
Bob [resigned]: OK.

...

Charlotte: I just graduated last spring.
Bob: What did you study?
Charlotte: Philosophy.
Bob: Yeah, there's a good buck in that racket.
Charlotte [laughing]: Well, so far it's been pro bono.

...

Charlotte: So, what are you doing here?
Bob: Uh, a couple of things. Taking a break from my wife, forgetting my son's birthday. And, uh, getting paid two million dollars to endorse a whiskey when I could be doing a play somewhere.
Charlotte: Oh.
Bob: But the good news is, the whiskey works.

...

Charlotte: Why do they switch the r's and the l's here?
Bob: Uh... for yuks. You know? Just to mix it up. They have to amuse themselves, 'cause we're not making them laugh.

...

Kelly [at a publicity interview explain her working relationship with Keanu Reeves]: And we both have two dogs, and we both live in L.A., so we have all these different things in common.

...

Bob: I was feeling tight in the shoulders and neck, so I called down and had a Shiatsu massage in my room...
Charlotte: Mmh, that's nice!
Bob: And the tightness has completely disappeared and been replaced by unbelievable pain.

...

Bob: It gets a whole lot more complicated when you have kids.
Charlotte: It's scary.
Bob: The most terrifying day of your life is the day the first one is born.
Charlotte: Nobody ever tells you that.
Bob: Your life, as you know it... is gone. Never to return. But they learn how to walk, and they learn how to talk... and you want to be with them. And they turn out to be the most delightful people you will ever meet in your life.

...

Charlotte: Well, she is closer to your age. You could talk about things you have in common, like, um, growing up in the 50's.

...

Bob: I don't want to leave.
Charlotte: So don't. Stay here with me. We'll start a jazz band.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
iambiguous: a post from Pedro?

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 38509
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

Over a narrative about man the "mysterious species" is a kaleidoscope of blurry, indistinct men and women intertwined in a bustling street scene. Occasionally some come into sharp foucus and you wonder how they fit into all the rest. This is clearly a world of contingency, chance and change. We bump into each other for any number of reasons and set into motion any number or reactions and relationships.

It's like trying to imagine a multiverse in which every possible combination of events unfolds. And you think you've got a handle on this one. Until you don't. And then things can quickly spiral out of control.

Just before Lola begins her first "run" the film keeps cutting to a domino toppling contest on TV. Is that what this is really all about instead? The notion that control itself is never anything but an illusion? Then a cut to Lola's mother babbling on about astrology.

RUN LOLA RUN
Written and directede by Tom Tykwer

[Up on the screen]

"We shall not cease from exploration and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time." - T.S. Eliot, "Little Gidding"

"After the game is before the game." - S. Herberger

...

Narrator: Man...probably the most mysterious species on our planet. A mystery of unanswered questions. Who are we? Where do we come from? Where are we going? How do we know what we think we know? Why do we believe anything at all? Countless questions in search of an answer...an answer that will give rise to a new question...and the next answer will give rise to the next question and so on.

This part I think I get.

Narrator: But, in the end, isn't it always the same question? And always the same answer? The ball is round. The game last 90 minutes. That's a fact. Everything else is just pure theory. Off we go!

This part I don't think I get at all.

Lola: The bag!
Manni: The bag!
Lola: The bag!
Manni: The bag!
Lola: The bag!
Manni: The bag!

...

Father: I'm so tired of being the fool, the one to blame! But Daddy's dough is good enough, huh? Well, not anymore! Anyway, I'd never have fathered a weirdo like you.
Lola: But you did, you jerk!
Father: No, I didn't! They guy who fathered you didn't live to see your birth. [to the guard] Throw her out, please.

...

[Flashback to conversation between Manni and Lola]
Lola: Manni? Do you love me?
Manni: Sure, I do.
Lola: How can you be so sure?
Manni: I don't know. I just am. You're the best. The best girl.
Lola: Of all the girls in the world?
Manni: Sure.
Lola: How do you know?
Manni: I just do.
Lola: You think so.
Manni: Okay, I think so.
Lola: You see? You aren't sure. What if you never met me?
Manni: What do you mean?
Lola: You'd be telling the same thing to someone else.

...

Manni: Lola, what's wrong? You want to leave me?
Lola: I don't know. I think I have to make a decision.

...

[flashback to conversation between Lola and Manni]
Manni: I know what you would do if I were dead. You'd forget me.
Lola: No!
Manni: Sure you would. What else could you do? Sure, you'd mourn for a few weeks. Not a bad idea. And everybody's real compassionate and everything's so incredibly sad, and everyone feels sorry for you. You can show everyone how strong you are. "What a great woman," they'll say. "She really pulls herself together instead of crying all day." And all at once this really nice guy with green eyes shows up. And he's super sensitive, listens to you all day. And you can talk his ear off. And you can tell him how tough things are for you... and that you have to look after yourself and don't know what's gonna happen... and blah, blah, blah. Then you'd hop onto his lap and cross me off your list. That's how it goes.
Lola: Manni.
Manni: What?
Lola: You haven't died yet.
[cuts back to Manni dying on the road after being run over by an ambulance]
Manni: No?

...

Lola: How does this work?
Casino cashier: You buy chips and gamble them away.
Lola: Okay.

...

[last line]
Manni: [to Lola] What's in the bag?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
iambiguous: a post from Pedro?

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 38509
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

What we really need is a film like this set in Washington...exposing how the "deals" get made "behind the curtains" there. The politicians could play themselves. They wouldn't even need to do any acting. Well, aside from what they had to learn in order to get the job.

And for cameos they could use Wall Street bankers.

Of course, we already knew all this about Hollywood. It's just that The Player is a particularly clever way in which to make us feel superior to such drek. I know I do.

IMDb

"It is estimated that if all the celebrities who did cameos were to charge their normal asking prices, the budget for the film would be in excess of \$100 million on salaries alone."

THE PLAYER
Directed by Robert Altman

Griffin: What have you got for me?
Buck: Okay, here it is. The Graduate, Part II. Listen, the three principals are still with us. Dustin Hoffman, Anne Bancroft, Katharine Ross, years later. And so are the characters, Ben, Elaine and Mrs. Robinson. Ben and Elaine are married, still. They live in a big, spooky house up in northern California somewhere. And Mrs. Robinson lives with them...her aging mother who's had a stroke so she can't talk.
Griffin: Will it be funny?
Buck: It'll be funny. Dark, weird and funny. And with a stroke. Maybe it's not a stroke. I don't know what it is. It's a malady of some sort. She's up in the bedroom listening to everything that happens. They've got a daughter who's just graduated from college. Twenty-two, twenty-three-year-old, like a Julia Roberts.

...

Woman pitching to Griffin: It's a TV star who goes on a safari.
Griffin: A TV star in a motion picture?
Woman pitching to Griffin: A TV star played by a movie star. Dolly Parton would be good.
Griffin: I like Goldie.
Woman pitching to Griffin: Great, because we have a relationship. Goldie goes to Africa. She's found by this tribe. Of small people. She's found and they worship her.
Griffin: I see, it's like The Gods Must Be Crazy except the coke bottle is an actress.
Woman pitching to Griffin: Right. It's Out of Africa meets Pretty Woman. She has to decide whether to stay with the TV show or save the tribe.

...

Man pitching a story: Does political scare you?
Griffin: Political doesn't scare me. Radical political scares me. Political political scares me.
Man pitching a story: This is politely politically radical, but it's funny.
Griffin: It's a funny political thing.
Man pitching a story: And it's a thriller, too, all at once.
Griffin: So, what's the story?
Man pitching a story: I want Bruce Willis. I can talk to him. It's a story about a bad-guy senator. He's traveling around the country on the country's dime, like Sununu did.
Griffin: I see, so it's a cynical, political thriller comedy.
Man pitching a story: But it's got heart in the right spot. Anyway, he has an accident. And he becomes clairvoyant, like a psychic.
Griffin: So it's a psychic, political, thriller comedy with a heart.
Man pitching a story: With a heart, not unlike Ghost meets Manchurian Candidate. He starts reading people's minds. And when he gets to the President's mind it's completely blank. Completely blank.

...

Griffin: Can we talk about something other than Hollywood for a change? We're educated people.

...

[after watching The Bicycle Thief]
Griffin: Great movie, huh? So refreshing to see something like this after all these... cop movies and, you know, things we do. Maybe we'll do a remake of this.
David: You'd probably give it a happy ending.
Griffin: No, we'd keep it pure.
David: Pure, right.

...

David [to Griffin]: You're in over your head. That's why you're losing your job. Then what are you gonna do? Huh? I can write. What can you do?

...

Griffin: OK, give me your pitch.
Walter: 25 words or less? OK, here goes. Movie exec calls writer, writer's girlfriend tells him he's at the movies, exec goes to the movies, meets writer, drinks with writer; writer gets conked and dies in four inches of dirty water. Exec is in deep shit. What do you think?
Griffin: That was more than 25 words.

...

Larry: To actually rub shoulders with the great unwashed? We need to give them the kind of pictures they want not the kind writers want to give them.

...

Larry: Let me ask you. When was the last time you bought a ticket to see a movie? You actually paid your own money?
Griffin: Last night. Pasadena. The Bicycle Thief.
Larry: That's an art movie. It doesn't count. We're talking about movie movies.

...

Larry: I'm just saying there's time and money to be saved if we came up with these stories on our own.
Bonnie: Where are these stories coming from?
Larry: Anywhere. It doesn't matter. The newspaper. Pick any story.
Bonnie [reading from newspaper]: 'Immigrants protest budget cuts in literacy program.'
Larry: Human spirit overcoming human adversity. Sounds like Horatio Alger in the barrio. Put Jimmy Smits in it and you've got a sexy Stand and Deliver. Next.
Executive [grabs the newspaper]: How about 'Mud slide kills in slums of Chili'?
Larry: That's good. Triumph over tragedy. Sounds like a John Boorman picture. Slap a happy ending on it, the script will write itself.
Bonnie [takes the paper]: 'Further bond losses push Dow down ...' I see Connery as Bond.

...

Griffin: I was just thinking what an interesting concept it is to eliminate the writer from the artistic process. If we could just get rid of these actors and directors, maybe we've got something here.

...

Larry [duped by Griffin into pitching Tom's story to Levison]: She's receiving the last rites. The D.A. discovers that the husband faked his own death. She's innocent. He races to the penitentiary, but it's too late. The pellets have dropped. She's dead. He helped kill the woman he loved.
Levison: Who are the stars?
Larry: No stars, just talent.
Levison: No stars? And what the fuck kind of ending do you call that? It's depressing.
Larry: Depressing? Terms of Endearment, Love Story, Steel Magnolias? E.T. grossed millions worldwide and there wasn't a dry eye in the house.
Levison: Yeah, but...
Larry: Normally I'd agree with you, but this is an entirely different kind of deal. It is a matter of taking the risk, rolling the dice. But if they come up bingo! It's Oscar time.
Levison: Do they screw?
Larry: Who?
Levison: The D.A. And the woman. Do they screw? If I'm going to be looking at jail cells and gas chambers, you need some sex.
Larry: Sure, of course. We'll get it there. No problem.

...

Larry: I'll be there right after my AA meeting.
Griffin: Oh Larry, I didn't realise you had a drinking problem.
Larry: Well I don't really, but that's where all the deals are being made these days.

...

June: I like words and letters, but I'm not crazy about complete sentences.

...

June: I don't go to movies.
Griffin: Why not?
June: Life is too short.

Ouch.

Griffin: We should pay for our crimes, shouldn't we?
June: I think knowing you've committed a crime is suffering enough. If you don't suffer maybe it wasn't a crime after all. Anyway, what difference does it make? It has nothing to do with how things really are.
Griffin: You don't really believe that do you?
June: I don't know what I believe, Mr. Mill. It's just what I feel.
Griffin: You know what you are, June? A pragmatic anarchist.

...

June: We can't hurry things any more than we can stop them.

...

Tom: Did Levy understand? No stars.
Griffin: Yes, he was particularly attracted to that notion.
Tom: And no Hollywood ending?
Griffin: No Hollywood ending.
Secretary: They looked happy.
Griffin: They have a completely fucked-up idea that has no second act. If I hadn't heard it myself, I never would've believed it. Larry Levy liked it though because he's a dickbrain.

...

Detective Avery: Mr. Mill, have you been going to detective school?
Griffin: No, actually, we're doing a... a movie right now, called Lonely Room, and Scott Glenn plays a detective much like yourself.
Detective Avery: Is he a black woman?

...

June: Tell me about the movies you make.
Griffin: Why?
June: Because I want to know what you do.
Griffin: I listen to stories and decide if they'll make good movies or not. I get 125 phone calls a day and if I let that slip to 100 I know I'm not doing my job. Everyone who calls wants to know one thing. They want me to say yes to them and make their movie. If I say yes, they think that come New Year's it will be just them and Jack Nicholson on the slopes of Aspen. That's what they think. The problem is I can only say yes...my studio can only say yes...12 times a year. And collectively we hear about 50,000 stories a year. So it's hard. And I guess sometimes I'm not nice and make enemies. That's what I was to David. Enemy.
June: Was his story one of the 12?
Griffin: No, it wasn't.
June: Why?
Griffin: It lacked certain elements that we need to market a film successfully.
June: What elements?
Griffin: Suspense, laughter, violence. Hope, heart, nudity, sex. Happy endings. Mainly happy endings.

...

Lawyer: Mr. Mill, Gar Girard. I'm here to represent you. Here's the situation. They've got a witness and want you to do a lineup. If you say no, they'll arrest you. Even if you get identified, I'll get you off on bail. This witness lives across the street from the parking lot. Even if she makes an identification a positive I.D., it was very late at night. By the time I'm finished with her, we'll have a new legal standard for blindness.

...

Bonnie: You sold it out! How could you let him sell you out? What about truth? Reality?
Tom: What about the way the old ending tested in Canoga Park? Everybody hated it. We reshot it, now everybody loves it. That's reality.
Bonnie: But you had an ending which was true. You didn't even give it a chance.
Andy: Who is this person?
Larry: Bonnie, goddamn it. This is a hit. This is what we're here for.
Bonnie: It didn't have to end this way.
Larry: I want you out of here.
Andy: Good thinking, Larry.

...

Writer [on phone]: Hi, Griff. Remember me? I'm the asshole who was in the postcard business.
Griffin: You.
Writer: The king of suspense. You remember.
Griffin: I haven't heard from you for a while.
Writer: I've been busy writing a script. It's great! It's a Hollywood story, a real thriller. It's about a shit-bag producer, studio exec who murders a writer he thinks is harassing him. The problem is, he kills the wrong writer. Now he's got to deal with blackmail and the cops. But, here's the switch. The son of a bitch gets away with it.
Griffin: He gets away with it?
Writer: Absolutely. A Hollywood ending. He marries the dead writer's girl and they live happily ever after.
Griffin: Can you guarantee that ending?
Writer: If the price is right, you got it.
Griffin: Guarantee that ending, you got a deal.
Writer: I guarantee it.
Griffin: What do you call this thing?
Writer: The Player.
Griffin: The Player. I like that.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
iambiguous: a post from Pedro?

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 38509
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

First The Player. Then Short Cuts. That's automatic.

As with Run Lola Run this film reflects on the manner in which we go about the business of living our lives largely oblivious to what we either do or do not set into motion just by being in a particular place at a particular time. And reacting in one manner rather than another. Some things we have a better understanding of [and control over] than others. But rarely do we think it through much below the surface. We know that things happen and that because they do things change. But we can only bring our own undertanding of the past and the present into however we imagine the changes will impact the future.

Just the right mix of comedy, tragedy and farce. The narratives were inspired by 9 Raymond Carver short stories. And one original story from Altman.

There are many great scenes marbled throughout the film [over 3 hours long] but if I had to pick my favorite it would be Stormy ransacking Betty's house with, among other things, a power saw and a pair of scissors. Tell me that isn't a classic! Then the salesman comes to the the door: "Your wife won a free vacuuming and carpet shampoo, no strings attached."

IMDb

"All Jennifer Jason Leigh's phone-sex conversations are verbatim of the calls she heard when she was researching for the part."

"The notorious bottom nude scene ultimately played by Julianne Moore deterred a lot of other actresses, including Madeleine Stowe, who switched roles in the film. Ironically, Stowe's new part required nudity too, though it was topless, rather than bottomless."

"Annie Ross and Lori Singer's segment is a Robert Altman invention and has no connection to anything Raymond Carver has written."

SHORT CUTS
Written and directed by Robert Altman

Stuart: Who's Alex Trebek?

...

Sherri: The spraying. It's gonna give him cancer!
Gene: It's not gonna give him cancer! Don't you get environmental on me, Sherri.
Sherri: Have you listened to the news lately? It's dangerous!
Gene: They wouldn't be doing it if it was dangerous!

...

Sherri: Wanna talk about where you were last night?
Gene: No, I don't. Not in front of the kids, I don't. I don't want them to hear about kids on C-R-A-C-K. You can come in the other room.
Sherri: Whose crack are we talking about, Gene?

...

Earl: How 'bout cops, baby? I bet they love those short skirts. I know fishermen like 'em!

...

Earl: You know, I don't know who you think would wanna look at your sad, middle aged ass anymore!
Doreen: Don't talk to me like that and don't you come back here! I'm not taking you back no more understand? No more I'm not taking you back!
Earl: I'm not COMING back!
Doreen: Slobbering over Honey like that it was so embarrassing...
Earl: I never touched Honey!
Doreen: I didn't say you touched her I said you slobbered on her!

...

Doreen: Listen, honey today something terrible happened. I hit this little kid with my car.
Earl: Oh...
Doreen: He didn't get hurt. He was okay. But, Jesus, it scared the hell out of me.
Earl: Were the cops there? Did they get your name?
Doreen: I told you, nobody was there.
Earl: Okay, I just don't wanna get sued.

...

Doreen: Such a close call. Everything could have changed. Our whole lives could have changed.

...

Gene: All right, now, Suzy, you go run away. We don't want you anymore.

...

Sherri: Who's Claire "The Clown" Kane?
Gene: What are you doing looking in my pockets?
Sherri: What are you doing with her driver's license and telephone number?
Gene: You wanna know? I'll tell you. Claire Kane, a.k.a. "The Clown" is a bunco artist wanted in three states. I have her phone number because I'm running a sting operation. Now you know. And now, unfortunately I have compromised your safety and the children's safety. Are you happy now?
[After Gene leaves the room Sherri bursts out laughing]

...

Ralph: You know, scientifically speaking, Marian, there's no such thing as "beyond natural color."

...

Gene: Happy birthday.
Betty: What is it? An alarm clock?

...

Vern: You know, I just realized...there's probably a thousand guys in L.A. who'd be ballin' her right now.

...

Betty: What you did to your son is unforgivable.
Stormy: What, he didn't tell you Daddy's been flying nights, bombin' the dirty medflies?

...

Claire: Dr. Wyman, it's Claire. Claire Kane. Remember? From the concert. Um [Chuckles] This is what I do. I'm doing a chil - I'm - I'm a clown. [Chuckles] I'm really looking forward to dinner. Stuart's bringing the fish. Remember?
Ralph: Oh, right.
[He walks away]
Colleague: Who's that?
Ralph: I have no idea.

...

Ann: Hello? Howard?
Bitkower: No, this is not Howard.
Ann: Oh, I'm sorry. Who are you calling?
Bitkower: Casey. I want to talk about that little bastard Casey.

...

Sherri: He's such a liar. Sometimes I ask him stuff just to entertain myself.
Marian: What do you mean?
Sherri: Just to see what kind of cockamamy lie he's gonna come up with next. I mean, some of the stories are really fantastic.

...

Marian: How's the sex?
Sherri: Well, he's real quick.

...

Sherri: Wouldn't it be a trip if Alex Trebek bought a nude painting of me?

...

[Casey's Voice] Hi. This is the Finnigan home. We can't get to the phone right now, so leave a message after the beep. [Beep]
Bitkower: "Oh, somewhere in this favored land the sun is shining bright, the band is playing somewhere and somewhere hearts are light. And somewhere men are laughing and somewhere children shout but there is no joy in Mudville--mighty Casey has struck out."

...

Lois [who works in the phone sex business]: The bishop in my parents' church called me. Oh, and he wanted, um, an incest call...with, like, a four-year-old girl.
Honey: Man, that is fucked up. Oh, man. Oh, that could just fuck your life up.
Lois: Okay, look, l- l- I don't condone it...but it's a money call.

...

Claire [after Stuart tells her about the dead body]: How long did you say you left her in the water?
Stuart: [Sighs] Claire...she was dead. We didn't think we should move her. It was dark. We made a decision to leave her there until we could report it! She was already dead!
Claire: And when did you report it?
Stuart: This morning. Today.
Claire: Today?
Stuart: Yeah.
Claire: And when did you find her?
Stuart: [Sighs] I told you.
Claire: Well, when did you catch the fish?
Stuart: Christ! That's what we went up there for- to fish.
Claire: You fished while she was in the water? You just left her there?!
Stuart: Claire...
Claire: You're making me sick!

...

Salesman: Well, I can see you've had some kind of problem here. That doesn't affect my work any. I've seen about everything there is to see.

...

Howard: Casey didn't make it, Zoe.

...

Ralph: Why are they always naked? Why does naked make it art?

...

Ralph: Marian, you don't have any panties on!

...

Ralph: Then what?
Marian: Then he said, "Do you wanna have a go at it?"
Ralph: Jesus, Marian. "Do you wanna have a go at it?" What..."Do you wanna have a go at it?!" What does that mean, Marian? "DO YOU WANNA HAVE A GO AT IT?!!"

...

Marian: Are you cheating Ralph?
Ralph: No, Marian. You cheat. Remember?

...

Ann: My son is dead. He is dead, Mr. Bitkower. He was hit by a car the day I came in here to order the cake. We have been waiting with him until he died. And now he is dead. There are no more birthdays. He is dead! You bastard! You bastard! Goddamn you! Goddamn you! Goddamn you!
Howard: Shame on you.

...

Honey: Remember 7NZ-699
Vern: 604-8364. 604-8364

...

Earl: I'm getting us out of Downey, baby. Don't worry about it. It's all temporary.

...

Wally: Wally had a good time.

...

Son: Aubrey Bell? Mommy, who's Aubrey Bell?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
iambiguous: a post from Pedro?

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 38509
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

There are two kinds of people in the world: Those that equate happiness with virtue and those that equate it with everything else. Usually sex.

Even if what it might be [again, usually sex] brings others pain.

How many people are there like this? Sure, I've met a few myself but are there really as many as the folks who make films like this want us to believe there are?

One thing seems reasonably certain: when we have evolved into a world with no sex we may have a chance to be happy. Or, for some, even to sustain it.

IMDb

"Premiere voted this movie as one of 'The 25 Most Dangerous Movies'".

Wiki

"The film was highly controversial for its heavy sexual themes, particularly its portrayal of pedophilia. The Sundance Film Festival refused to accept the film, alleging it to be too disagreeable.

Happiness received an NC-17 rating from the MPAA, and that caused the film to be limited in distribution; the film also had difficulty in advertising. For that particular reason, Happiness surrendered its NC-17 rating and was instead released unrated."

HAPPINESS [1998]
Written and directed by Todd Solondz

Andy: Is it someone else?
Joy: No. It's just you.

...

Joy: It almost makes me want to learn how to smoke.

...

Andy: You think I don't appreciate art? You think I don't understand fashion? You think I'm not hip? You think I'm pathetic? A nerd? A lard-ass fat-so? You think I'm shit? Well, you're wrong, 'cause I'm champagne, and you're shit. Until the day you die, you, not me, will always be shit!

...

Bill: I wake up happy, feeling good...but then I get very depressed, because I'm living in reality.

...

Bill: Trish is good to me.
Shrink: But, still no sex.
Bill: No, but she's not too interested either so, really, there's no problem there when you think about it...

...

Helen: Y'know, people are always putting New Jersey down. None of my friends can believe I live here. But that's because they don't get it: I'm living in a state of irony.

...

Bill: What Ronald Farber doesn't know is that it's not length that matters, it's width.

...

Bill: Do you want me to measure?

...

Joe: What do you think would happen if I got him a professional...you know...
Bill: A professional?
Joe: Hooker. You know, the kind that can teach things...first-timers, you know...break him in.
Bill: But Joe, he's 11.
Joe: You're right, you're right. It's too late

...

Diane: When I was a child I always imagined I'd marry the man I fell in love with, have a son and a daughter who loved me as much as I hated my mother, then die...tragically and suddenly.

...

Allen: Pussy....need pussy.

...

Joy: I am not a scab... I am a strikebreaker

...

Detective: Johnny, was there anyone in the last day or two who..."hurt" you?
Johnny: No. I... I... I don't think so.
Detective: But someone did hurt you... no, Johnny?
Johnny: No. No-one hurt me.
Joe [Johnny's father]: What do ya mean no? You've been FUCKING RAPED!

...

Allen: I bore the people. People look at me and they get bored, people listen to me and they zone out...bored.

...

Kristina: Do you remember Pedro's penis?
Allen: You mean the one that...that was...cut off?
Kristina: Well, it wasn't really cut off.

...

Bill [answering the phone]: Hey, Joe. What's up? How's Johnny doing?

...

Bill: Now...you said something about Ronald Farber?
Detective: Excuse me?
Bill: I'm sorry, I mean, I mean, Johnny Grasso?

...

Spray painted across Bill and Trish's home: SERIAL RAPIST PERVERT

Here's the part that, uh, disturbed folks:

[Note: explicit...creepy...language]

Billy [Bill's young son]: Dad, did you, um...uh...with...Johnny Grasso and Ronald Farber?
Bill [weeping]: Yes.
Billy: What...did you do?
Bill: I touched them.
Billy: What do you mean, exactly, touched?
Bill: I fondled them.
Billy: What for?
Bill: I couldn't help myself.
Billy: What else? I..I unzipped myself.
Billy: You..you mean, masturbated?
Bill: No.
Billy: Then what?
Billy: What do you mean?
Bill: I fucked them.
Billy: What was it like?
Bill: It was...it was great.
Billy: Would you do it again?
Bill: Yes.
Billy: Would...would you ever...fuck me?
Bill: No. I'd jerk off instead.
[Billy starts to sob, then cry, uncontrollably]

...

Helen: There's this guy I've met, Joy, that I'd think you'd like. He's in computers, I think.
Joy: How did you meet him?
Helen: He's a neighbor of mine. You want to call him, or should I give him your number?
Joy: I'll call him.
Helen: That'll be great. I think he'll really like that.
Helen: I'm looking. I'm looking.
Trish: I like computers.
Helen: Trish, trust me on this one. He's not for you.

...

Helen: I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing with you.
Joy: But I'm not laughing.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
iambiguous: a post from Pedro?

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 38509
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

The science here may be absurd but it's not if the Big One is coming, but when. And if it comes in our lifetime we shall be the object lesson embedded in the idea that the language of philosophy has profound limitations in describing the world around us. The logic remains the same but the narratives become very, very different.

There are castastophes that come from above; and they are beyond our control. And they are very very few and very very far between. The ones that afflict us more routinely are of a different sort. They are the stuff of friends and families tumbling pell-mell out of orbit; tumbling into new orbits that send them colliding.

Me, I truly do love cynical people. Especially those cynical about things like this.

But don't get me wrong: It's not required of you.

Suppose somehow science was able to determine for a fact that we on earth are the only intelligent life form in the universe. How would that change anything?

IMDb

"The advertisement for which Justine is supposed to come up with a tagline is based on an oil painting by Pieter Bruegel the Elder entitled The Land of Cockaigne, an unflattering portrayal of excess and spiritual emptiness in a mythical land of plenty."

"The painting seen in the prologue is Pieter Breughel's Hunters in the Snow (1565). This painting also prominently features in Andrey Tarkovskiy's Solaris. Lars von Trier often stated Tarkovskiy greatly inspires him."

It should be noted there are those who hated this film:

http://www.moviereviews.co.uk/features/ ... elancholia

But it also includes a link to 10 reasons critics love it.

MELANCHOLIA
Written and directed by Lars von Trier

John: Gaby, I'm sorry to disturb you, but we're ready to cut the cake.
Gaby: [behind the bathroom door] When Justine took her first crap on the potty, I wasn't there. When she had her first sexual intercourse, I wasn't there. So give me a break, please, with all your fucking rituals.

...

John: Those bitches have locked themselves in their bedrooms or are now taking a bath. Is everyone in your family stark raving mad?

...

John: I tried to throw your mother out.
Justine: Yeah, you usually do.

...

Justine: I smile and I smile and I smile.

...

Gaby: You can still waddle, I see. So just waddle the hell out of here.

...

Justine: The problem is how do we effectively hook a group of minors with our sub-standard product, preferably in a habit forming way. And I've reached a conclusion with respect to a tagline. I was just thinking what if instead we try to sell you to the public, Jack. Then surprisingly I was right back where I started from: with nothing.
Tim: Nothing is not such a bad tagline Jack.
Jack: Would you please expand on that a little.
Justine: Nothing is too much for you, Jack. I can't find words to describe it. I hate you and your advertising firm so deeply. You are a despicable, power-hungry little man, Jack.
Jack: Is that a resignation? Because there are not too many jobs out there now, I'll tell you.

...

Jack: I dropped my plate.

...

Tim: The way I see it, you're now short of a boss and a husband. Could I in all humility offer you my services?

...

Justine: The earth is evil. We don't need to grieve for it.
Claire: What?
Justine: Nobody will miss it.
Claire: But where would Leo grow?
Justine: All I know is, life on earth is evil.
Claire: Then maybe life somewhere else.
Justine: But there isn't.
Claire: How do you know?
Justine: Because I know things.
Claire: Oh yes, you always imagined you did.
Justine: I know we're alone.
Claire: I don't think you know that at all.
Justine: 678. The bean lottery. Nobody guessed the amount of beans in the bottle.
Claire: No, that's right.
Justine: But I know. 678.
Claire: Well, perhaps. But what does that prove?
Justine: That I know things. And when I say we're alone, we're alone. Life is only on earth, and not for long.

...

Claire: I want us to be together when it happens. Maybe outside on the terrace. Help me Justine. I want to do this the right way.
Justine: You better do it quickly.
Claire: A glass of wine together. Out on the terrace.
Justine: You want me to have a glass of wine with you on your terrace? How about a song? Beethoven's Ninth. Something like that? Maybe we could light some candles. You want us to gather on your terrace to sing a song and have a glass of wine. The three of us.
Claire: Yes. That would make me happy.
Justine: Do you know what I think of your plan?
Claire: No. I was hoping that you would like it.
Justine: I think it's a piece of shit.
Claire: Justine, please. I just want it to be nice.
Justine: Nice? Why don't we meet on the fucking toilet?
Claire: Then let's not.
Justine: You're damn right let's not.
Claire: Sometimes I hate you so much, Justine.

...

Leo [Claire's young son]: I'm afraid that the planet will hit us anyway.
Leo: Dad says there was nothing to do and nowhere to hide.

...

Justine: [to Leo and Claire] Hold my hand. Close your eyes.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
iambiguous: a post from Pedro?

iambiguous
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### Re: philosophy in film

As is often the case in these films the "Johns" are hinted to be "big shots"---politicians, bankers, celebrities, pillars of the community. You can't help but wonder how true this actually is. You know, "in reality". The darker, slimier underbelly of the stuff the Eliot Spitzers are involved in.

IMDb

"Congenital analgesia, as suffered by Ronald Niedermann, is a condition in which children are born with an insensitivity to pain, the body's natural response to harmful stimuli, leading to such insults as broken bones, biting off bits of the tongue, and sticking knives through flesh. Current research suggests that the cause may be genetic and directed at the nervous system. It's this condition that makes Niedermann such a dangerous opponent. He is a very tall, muscular man who doesn't feel pain when his victims try to fight him off. He just keeps going and going."

I know any number of folks who would not consider this a "disorder" at all. Me, for example.

THE GIRL WHO PLAYED WITH FIRE
Directed by Daniel Alfredson

Mikael: I know she didn't do anything. Not this time.

...

Mikael: You bought sex from all three of these women. So I was wondering, which one did you like best?

...

John: Do you realize my life will be destroyed if you publish this.
Mikael [matter of factly]: Yes.

...

Lizbeth: You broke the rules again. Do you want to die?

...

Mikael: What did he look like?
Paolo: Like a blond tank.

...

Paolo: There's another weird thing about this. I landed about a hundred hard punches right to his face but nothing. It was like he didn't feel them.

...

Holger: Zalachenko. Alexander Zalachenko
Mikael: Do you know who he is.
Holger [nodding]: He is Lizbeth's father.

...

Lizbeth: Hello, Papa...

...

Zala [to Lizbeth]: I've thought about you over the years. Like everytime I see myself in the mirror.

...

Zala: I hated you. But I've forgiven you.
Lizbeth: Bullshit. Bjurman hired you to kill me.
Zala: That's completely different. That's business.

...

Zala [to Lizbeth]: Did Bjurman really rape you? Christ, the guy must have had shitty taste.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
iambiguous: a post from Pedro?

iambiguous
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### Re: philosophy in film

And the Lord said, "Get 'em while they're young." Just like the Objectivists do.

Seriously, this is about how people feel, not about what they think. Are these people stupid for believing this stuff? Is someone stupid in turn for calling them stupid? God knows. And that's the point when you can't turn to anyone down here who does.

This is probably as close as it actually gets to how these things unfold out in the world. People searching for the ultimate rationalizations.

And people falling back on the only thing there is when there's calamity in their life. It's God or nothing. Or certainly not something atheists can provide.

For God the movie ends on an ambiguous note.

And of course the snickers from the folks in here who will continue to heap scorn and derision on these "stupid" people.

HIGHER GROUNDS
Directed by Vera Farmiga

Young Wendy: She got saved today.
Mother: Saved from what?

...

Young Wendy: Pastor Bud says Jesus knocks on our heart, but we don't listen.
Mother: Maybe he should try the doorbell instead.

...

Bill [of young Corrine at baptism]: This is one fish the Lord has been trying to hook for a long time.

...

Church elder: We've got a set of tapes. Christ-Like Sex by Dr. Frank Barnes.
[From the tape]
"When it comes to satisfying your wife, brothers, clitoral stimulation is part of God's plan."

...

Annika: Satan's doing a real number on you. I'm gonna bind him. I'm gonna bind him right now. "Satan, you have no power over us".
Corrine: "No, you don't."
Annika: "We are children of God, Satan, and we reject your fiery darts. We reject your lies. We denounce you. You're a fallen angel doomed to Hell forever and ever."
Corrine: Amen
Annika: "Get thee behind us Satan, get thee behind us."
Corrine: "Yeah, get lost Bub, get lost!"
Annika: Bub?
Corrine: Bub, yeah. You know, Satan is Beelzebub. The Lord of the Flies. The book.
Annika: "Get lost Bub". That's great!

...

Corrine: As we're told in Thessalonians, uh, you know, God wants us to come to Him with all our needs and all our desires. If you want the Ganders to have a winning season. If you want it, you know, it'll take a miracle. But I'll pray anyway. And then I'll thank him when they choke in the fourth quarter like they always do. But that's faith isn't it?

...

Parishioner [to Corrine]: You came very close to preaching just now. We have to be careful not to appear as though we're teaching the men.

...

Parishioner: I so don't mean to pick on you, but scriptures tell older women to teach the younger women.
Corrine: Sure. What's wrong.
Corrine: My dress? What? It's a maternity dress.
Parishioner: I know. It caught Luke's attention...You don't want to make a brother stumble.

...

Corrine: Why don't we believe in tongues?
Ethan: Because we don't. Look, it's...I mean it's nonsensical. It's probably voodoo.
Corrine: Annika prayed for me in tongues. She called it a prayer language. I thought it was so beautiful.
Ethan: Does Ned know about that?
Corrine: What difference does it make? She's worshipping God. It makes her feel closer to Him. There can't be anything wrong with...
Ethan: Corrine. The deceiver comes deguised as an angel of light.

...

Ethan: I only see you.
Corrine: Really? What do you see when you look at me? The mother of your children? A virtuous woman? Handmaiden of the Lord?
Ethan: I see a new creature in Christ.
Corrine: Yeah, right, that's me. Popped right out of Zeus's forehead fully grown.
Ethan: I don't even know what that means.
Corrine: No shit, you don't. You don't understand anything. You don't understand literature or intelligent conversation or how to make love. You know, I just do it myself these days. It takes me 30 seconds to do what you couldn't get done listening to step-by-step instructions from Dr. Fuck Barnes.
Ethan [after almost strangling her]: Satan get out of this car. Out. Out! OUT!!

...

Corrine [to church counselor]: Inside with you or outside with the dogs...
Church counselor: Why are you here?
Corrine: I'm here because my husband of 15 years asked me to come.
Church counselor: There's a fiery lake waiting for you. With whips that'll cut your flesh and brands that'll sear your skin.
Corrine: And you get to watch?
Church counselor: This is not a joke, Mrs. Miller. You are crucifying Christ all over again. I can see right into your soul...A year ago I stopped at McDonald's for an Egg McMuffin. I happened to see a city councilman whose affair with his secretary was common knowledge. As I took my last sip of coffee, God said to me, "Rebuke him. Tell him to repent". I did not want to rebuke this man but God does not take no for an answer. So I walk over there and laid it out for him. I said "God wants you to repent for your sin or he will deal with you". And that man looked back at me with eyes cold as any devil's and told me to go fuck myself. Well, I shrugged. I'd done what God asked me to do. And I walked out. Later that day, the city councilman skidded on a slick road over a cliff, dead. I look at you and I'm eating my Egg McMuffin all over again.

...

Corrine [alone, bursting at the seams with a desparate sincerity]: Lord help me. I can't feel you. I feel nothing. Draw near to me Lord. Come on. Where are you? Huh? Where are you?

...

Ethan: You're leaving me aren't you?

...

Ethan [strumming his guitar and singing while Corrine walks out the door]: "My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus name and...fuck you, goddamn it."

...

Corrine [to the congregation she left]: I told God, I told Him: "You know what? I'm not gonna let go." I won't let go until He blesses me. But I'm wrestling something nameless, you know, without form and void. And I just want it to be solid so bad. I need all of this to be real, and I don't always know how to make it real. I don't know how to make it real.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
iambiguous: a post from Pedro?

iambiguous
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### Re: philosophy in film

Don't expect to immediately understand what the hell is going on here.

I suppose it is possible to imagine events like this unfolding. In your dreams, for example. Almodovar called it "a horror story without screams." It also has that element of revenge I crave as well.

This is something, uh, different for Pedro. Science fiction?

The science here [to the extent it is science] is way over my head. But it is easy enough to imagine the day when the "civilized world" will be wrestling with the bio-ethics of the skin we are in. And all the other organs too. We already do regarding the sex stuff.

This is weird.

IMDb

"Ledgard calls his synthetic skin 'Gal' after his first wife. The name Gal is short for Galatea, who in Roman Mythology was a statue made by the gifted sculptor Pygmalion. The statue was so perfect that Pygmalion fell in love with his own creation and Venus granted his wish to bring her to life."

THE SKIN I LIVE IN
Written and directed by Pedro Almodóvar

Vicente: You are different. I am different as well.
Norma: Are you in therapy, too?

...

Marilia: Their fathers were very different but they were both born insane. That's my fault.

...

President of the Institute: There is only one way to toughen skin: by mutating it.
Robert: Yes, that's what I did.
President of the Institute: Transgenesis.
Robert: Yes. I transferred genetic information from a pig's cell to a human cell.
President of the Institute: A pig's cell?
Robert: It's much stronger than ours.
President of the Institute: You're insane! You know transgenic therapy in humans is totally forbidden!
Robert: Yes, I do, but it seems the ultimate paradox. We intervene in everything around us, meat, clothes, vegetables, fruit, everything! Why not use scientific advances to improve our species? You know how many diseases we could cure with transgenesis? Or the genetic malformations that could be avoided?
President of the Institute: Don't go on. I know the list by heart and I think of it every day. But even so, I must forbid you from investigating further, or I'll be forced to report you to the scientific community. Aside from what you or I might think the bioethics are absolutely clear about this.

...

Marilla: Have you thought what to do with her?
Robert: No.
Marilla: You'll have to kill her or keep her hidden forever.

...

Marilla: After the accident we lived like vampires, in total darkness and with no mirrors.

...

Vera: Do you mind if we leave it for tomorrow? The tiger really messed me up down there.

...

Marilia: The things the love of a mad man can do.

...

Vicente: Why did you shave me?
Robert: That's a good question.

...

Vicente [after the operation]: What's happened? What did you do to me?
Robert: A vaginoplasty.
Vicente: No.

...

Robert: Listen carefully to what I am going to say. It's very important. As you've seen the operation was successful, but the tissues of the vagina are very tender and could stick together. But don't worry, it's easy to prevent that. You have to keep the new orifice open and manage, bit by bit, to make it deeper.

Then he brings out the "tools" he'll need to do this.

Vicente: Why are you doing this?
Robert: Do you remember Casilda Efraiz's wedding? In that spectacular house? I'm Norma's father. She was the child you raped.
Vicente: I don't think I actually raped her.
Robert: You "don't think"?
Vicente: I'd taken a lot of pills and I can hardly remember it.
Robert: Well, I didn't take anything, and I'll never forget it!

...

Robert: I can't keep calling you Vicente. From today, your name is Vera.

...

Robert: But you promised.
Vera: I lied.

...

Marilia: I knew it.

...

Vera: I don't know where to begin, Cristina.
Cristina: Do you know me?

What do you think, does she?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
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iambiguous
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### Re: philosophy in film

Dasein embodied historically and culturally. Almost unthinkable here and now, these gender/family relationships were the norm "back then"...and "over there".

Yet some things never really change at all. See if you can spot them.

Hint: Men are still men and bosses are still bosses. And, well, in some respects, women are still women.

Oh, and contingency, chance and change still prevail.

These things happened only because people belived they must happen. And it's not really all that different today. We become trapped in these fucking narratives not even realizing that is all they are: stories we tell ourselves about what is true.

a clip from the film:

Ju Dou [1990]
Directed by Fengliang Yang and Yimou Zhang

Up on the screen:

A small village somewhere in China in the 1920s

...

Boy: Your uncle bought himself another wife. Her name is Ju Dou. A good-looker...and expensive. You didn't know that your first two aunts were tortured to death by him. They didn't give him any children. Listen how your new aunt screams at night.

...

Jinshan: I bought you. Now obey me. When I buy an animal I treat it as I wish.

...

Jinshan: Bear me a son and I will be your slave.

...

Tianqing: Aunt, what happened to your face?

...

Ju Dou: Listen to the pig, screaming for its life!

Then Jinshan is attacked by bandits. He is left paralyzed from the waist down. Everything changes.

Tianqing: Are you pregnant?
Ju Dou: Yes. And that old bastard thinks it's his! I counted the days. The child is yours!

...

Then later while Ju Dou and Tianqing watch:

Jinshan: Tianbai! Call me!
Jinshan: Again! Louder!
Jinshan: Tianbai, that is your mother. That is your brother. And I'm your father. My son, you're a good boy. Remember to call us that way.

...

Ju Dou: Let's live together openly and never mind what people might say.
Tianqing: What they'd say doesn't worry me. If they knew, they'd kill us.

...

Tianqing: What's that?
Ju Dou: Arsenic.

...

Ju Dou: Tianqing! You, too, are beating me? Sure, continue doing it. Revive the old man, and you can both beat me!

...

Tianqing: Do you remember how it all began for us?
Ju Dou: Yes.
Tianqing: Tell me. Tell me, go on.
Ju Dou: No, you tell me. It makes me blush.
Tianqing: Sure, I remember, I watched you through a hole in the wall.
Ju Dou: Yes. I remember. And now we've gotten ourselves into this big hole.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
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iambiguous
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### Re: philosophy in film

For me, the movie more or less revolves around this:

Candy: Do you ever feel like you're nothing like anyone else in the world?
David: Only all the time.
Candy: Somewhere there's one person waiting for me... feeling like me.
David: A lot of people in the world feel like that.

Sound familiar? It seems only "normal" people don't feel this way.

Take away the deranged psycho-sexual serial killer sub-plot and this film is bursting at the seams with insights on love and human remains. Both gay and straight. Well, in late 20th century Canada anyway.

And it aims to attack cynicism with a vengence. Didn't put a dent in mine though.

A warning: It does jump the shark from time to time. It can go way over the top. But it's still worth watching.

LOVE AND HUMAN REMAINS
Directed by Denys Arcand

David: Bern, where did everybody go?
Bernie: Who?
David: Everybody we used to know.
Bernie: I don't know. Away.
David: It's funny how people just disappear.
Bernie: Yeah, it's fucking hilarious.

...

Kane: Do you still do, you know, TV stuff?
David: It's called acting and no, I don't.
Kane: Why not?
David: I find being a waiter more artisically satisfying.

...

David [entering his apartment]: Honey, I'm homo.

...

Candy: There's a spot on my futon.
David [looking at it]: My guess is either pizza or vasoline.

...

David: I worry about you darling. You should get out more.
Candy: With the men in this town? You're joking.
David: No, no, we have some fine men.
Candy: I need someone who will hang around for my orgasm.
David: Then stop dating straight men.
Candy: I've already tried that, remember?
David: I was just a trainee fag at the time.

...

Candy: I want more than just sex.
David: That's why God invented television.

...

Kane: That was coke wasn't it?
Benita: Junk.
Kane: Heroin?!
David: It's alright. I won't let anything bad happen to you.

...

...

David [in a crowded supermarket]: You're having someone over. Who is it the bartender?
Candy: No.
David: It's the dyke! It is the dyke!! CARPET MUNCHING IN MY OWN HOME!!!

...

Bernie: Why is everything so fucking hard?
David: Not everything, just the important stuff.

...

Bernie: You know what I like best about coming up here?
David: No, what?
Bernie: You can spit on the people walking below you.

...

Sal [at nightspot]: It's chicken night.
David: Are there any fags here?
Sal: Sure. They just don't know it yet.

...

David: I can't picture you as a dyke.
Candy: PLEASE. I'd be a lesbian!

...

David [to Candy]: There's an extra pair of shoes by the door.

...

Candy: I don't have much luck with men.
David: Well, that's not exclusively a female problem.

...

Jerri: Some people have a problem with gays and lesbians.
Candy: Yeah, well some people wear polyester.

...

Bernie: When are you gonna do something with your life?
David: What, like you? Work at a job I hate and fuck women I can't stand.
Bernie: Fuck you, it's a life!
David: It's not the kind I want.

...

Candy: Excuse me. I have to go try on everything I own.

...

Candy: David, the paper boy is here.

...

David: So, Candy tells me you're a lesbian.
Candy: David!
Jerri: That's right.
David: I'm queer myself.
Jerri: I know.
[pause]
David: Well, we seem to have exhausted that particular topic.

...

David: Here's to love...in all of its many forms.
Candy: Do you ever get tired of being a professional faggot.
David: Don't.
Candy: You have nothing and no one in your life.
David: I have what I need.
Candy: You don't think past the next beer or the next fuck.
David: At least I'm honest about it.
Candy: Honest? Please, you've never been honest. You've been lying about your feelings for so long they don't even exist anymore.
David: Why, because they're not your feelings.
Candy: At least I'm willing to try.
David: With anyone who comes along.
Candy: That guy might have loved me.
David: You're pathetic Candy.
Candy: You fuck everything up.
David: When are you going to stop blaming me for everything that's wrong in your life?
Candy: When are you going to admit you were never a good actor?
David: When you admit you're in love with a faggot because it's the only way you feel safe.
Candy: Shut up.
David: I don't need you. I don't need anybody.
Candy: And you call me pathetic.

So, who won?

David: You're the one.
Bernie: They were hairdressers and secretaries for Christ's sake.
David: They were people.
Bernie: Like you fucking care about people.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
iambiguous: a post from Pedro?

iambiguous
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### Re: philosophy in film

What's interesting here is how an academic researching sociopathic killers is suddenly eyeball to eyeball with one. As Early points out: "How you gonna write a book about something you know nothing about?"

There are some folks you find both repugnant and fascinating at the same time. You are appalled by what they do but you envy their capacity and their willingness to just take what they want.

This is actually less about class than culture. You grow up in a certain community and chances are the way you look at life gets carved in stone. Here that place just happens to one where reason doesn't work the way Brian and Carrie would like it to.

And that's before we get to, "most of them suffer from a severe chemical brain imbalance."

But everytime Early is on the screen you forget about that stuff. You just keep wondering what the hell he is going to do next. BOOM!

In this case you really do have to keep reminding yourself from time to time, "it's just a movie".

But we all know the Earlys are out there. Born and bred in the U.S. of A. Still, what would make this even scarier is an Early a little less obviously psychotic.

IMDb

"Early in the movie, when Carrie and Brian first see Early Grayce and Adele Corners, Carrie is heard complaining to Brian, "They look like a couple Okies." Brad Pitt was born in Oklahoma and grew up in Springfield, Missouri, which is located in an area of America referred to by its mountain range, the Ozarks. Rural, unsophisticated people from the Ozarks are often referred to as 'Okies' rather than 'hillbillies'".

KALIFORNIA
Directed by Dominic Sena

Brian [narrating]: I remember once going on a school trip to the top of the Empire State Building. When I looked down at the crowds of people on the street they looked like ants. I pulled out a penny and some of us started talking about what would happen if I dropped it from up there and it landed on someone's head. Of course I never crossed that line and actually dropped the penny. I don't think Early Grayce even knew there was a line to cross.

...

Brian: I'm talking about the mind and culpability of a serial killer. Someone who has no ability to distinguish between right and wrong is like a child in the eyes of the law. He should be treated like a child. He should not be imprisoned, let alone executed.
Eric: Oh, here we go again. Let's just lay it all at the altar of misfiring synapses, amok biochemicals and horrendous childhoods.
Brian: Look, it's a fact, most of these people suffer from a severe chemical brain imbalance. The answer is research and treatment under hospital supervised conditions. Not the electric chair.
Brian's friend: Yeah, that's great Brian. Unless it's your mother's head they find in the freezer.
Brian: Yeah, but executing the killer would not bring my mother back now would it?
Carrie: Thank God.

...

Brian [narrating]: I'd always wanted to be a writer, but there's a big difference between writing a magazine article and writing a book. I know: I wrote a magazine article. Everything I ever wanted to know about serial killers fit nicely on those four pages. The article got me a book deal with a little cash up front, but between the rent and the convertible the advance was gone. I owed a book and I was stuck. What little I knew about seial killers I learned in a university library. The only thing I knew for certain was that people didn't kill each other in libraries.

...

Brian [narrating]: What the hell did I know about California? For some people it was still a place of hopes and dreams, a chance to start over. The idea was if you could get there everything would be okay, and if it wasn't okay there, well, it probably wasn't going to be okay anywhere.

...

Parole Officer: You know, you're supposed to notify me Early, when you lose your job. I stopped by the mirror factory today... you left quite a mess back there.
Early Grayce: Yeah... well, that wasn't my fault. Besides, it's dangerous, and they treat me like shit.
Parole Officer: [with sarcasm] Aw... nobody ever has treated you right, have they Early? Your Daddy was picking on you when he threw you out of the house for stealing the tires off his truck. The police were way out of line when they kept you from beating that bartender half to death. You know Early I bet the Lord's gonna be picking on you come Judgment Day.

...

Carrie: Oh Brian, you've got to be kidding me. Look at them. They look like Okies!
Adele: Oh Jesus, Early, they look kinda weird.

...

Brian [narrating]: Carrie was right. If you looked in the dictionary under poor white trash a picture of Early and Adele would have been there. But I knew if I was gonna be a good writer I'd have to ignore the cliches and look at life through my own eyes.

...

[Discussing Early's job at the mirror factory]
Adele: Know what, Brian? One night when we was stayin' up late we was talkin' 'bout how much bad luck he must have comin' from all those mirrors he broke, and I swear we came to 449 years it would take for him to work it all off, and he'd have to - after he died - he's gonna have to keep comin' back to earth over and over and over again.
Carrie: Karma.
Carrie: Karma. You know, when you do something bad to someone and fate pays you back by something bad happening to you.
Adele: [blowing a bubble] Is that French?

...

Brian [narrating]: Early seemed harmless. Primitive, but harmless. Of course the fact of the matter was he had killed his landlord less than an hour before we met him. He was even wearing the guy's ring. Who knows what he did with the finger?

...

Brian [narrating]: From the moment I began working on the book, I kept asking one question over and over: What's the difference between a killer and anyone of us? What was it they had or didn't have that separated them from us?

...

Brian: You know, I didn't know this about you, I didn't know you were so prejudiced.
Carrie: Oh please, because I object when someone takes of their shoe and scratches their foot while I'm eating in a restaurant you call me prejudiced?

...

Adele: You know, I used to smoke before I met Early. But he broke me of that.
Carrie: Broke you?
Adele: Oh. Yeah. Cos Early don't think women should smoke or drink or cuss. So you know what I do? I spell all my cuss words.

...

Carrie: He hits you?
Adele: Oh, only when I deserve it.

...

Adele: My God, Carrie. If Early ever saw me in a picture like that I'd be black-and-blue for a week.
Carrie: You shouldn't let him do that to you.
Adele: You think Early's mean to me? Well, he's not. He may punish me once in a while, but he's not mean. Um, when I was 13 there was these three boys and they raped me in the back of this truck. They hurt me sob bad that I was in the hospital for, like, four months. And I feel safe with Early cos most of the time he treats me really nice. I know that he'd never. He would never let anything like that ever happen to me again.

...

Brian [narrating]: Early lived in the moment. He did whatever he wanted whenever he wanted. It was that simple. I don't know if I was more fascinated or frightened by him.

...

Brian: How many people have you killed, Early?
Early: Well, now, how many people have you seen me kill, Bri?
Brian: None.
Early: That's how many I killed.
Brian: If you say so.
Early: Damn right I do. Shut up! Eat your food. You ain't never killed no one, have you, Bri?
Brian: No.
Early: No. Ain't seen nobody killed either, have you?
Brian: No, I haven't.
Early: No. Tell me something, big time. How you gonna write a book about something you know nothing about?

...

Early: Some day me and Adele be walking down the road and we'll see your book and we'll buy it and put it on our coffee table.

...

Brian: You didn't have to kill the gas station attendent. You wanted to. Why? Help me out, Early, you're right. I don't know shit about killing. Why? Did it make you feel good? Powerful? Superior? Who are you angry with, your mother? Your father?

...

[Early walks over to Brian who is standing over the wounded cop]
Early: Tell me that don't hurt. Here.
[Hands Brian a gun while pointing another one at his head]
Brian: What?
Early: Gotta put that crippled dog out of his misery. You wanna know about it, you gotta do it, son. Shoot him. Come on, lay it on in there. Come on, mean boy. Come on, mean boy. Do it! Shoot him! Shoot the dog! Time to live, boy. Shoot him. It's him or you. Come on. Go!
[Brian drops the gun]
Early: You faggot.
Brian: Look at his face! It's not your father. Look at him!
Early: I know that, you idiot. That's police in a world of hurting. This here's a mercy killing.
[He kills the cop]
Carrie: Oh God!

...

Early: You haven't even said thank you.
Early: Thank you for what, Adele?
Early: Well, Adele, it's for saving your fucking life back there! Goddamn! You were this close, momma, from spending the night in the county morgue.
Carrie: He wasn't going to shoot her, you murdering son of a bitch!
Brian: Stop it, Carrie.
Carrie: What are you fucking insane?
Brian: Shut up!
Carrie: He's a monster!
Brian: Shut up, Carrie!

...

Early: Look, momma, there's a pretty house. Maybe they got some beer.

...

Adele: Guess what, Early? Mrs. Mustgrave has this guest house in the back... and it's real, real beautiful, and it's empty hon. She said that if you and me wanted to...
Mrs. Musgrave: Hank! Hank!
Early: [putting a golf club over shoulder] Well, you're a widow now, Peaches.

...

Early: Looks like I need me a new momma.

...

Brian [narrating]: I'll never know why Early Grayce became a killer. I don't know why any of them did. When I looked into his eyes I felt nothing, nothing. That day I learned that any one of us is capable of taking another human life. But I also learned there is a difference between us and them: it's feeling remorse. Dealing with guilt. Confronting a conscience. Early never did.

...

[last lines]
Adele [on one of Brian's tapes]: Hi... Guess who this is... It's me, Adele. Um, I know I'm probably not supposed to be talkin' on the tape recorder, but um, I just wanted to say thank you for taking me and Early with you on your trip, cuz me and Early is havin' a really good time. And um, I just hope when we get to California, that you guys don't forget all about us. Cuz friends are important, and well, you're the only friends we got. Bye.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
iambiguous: a post from Pedro?

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 38509
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

A very black and very comedic look into the "coming of age" saga. The American edition.

What makes this comedy all the blacker is that Dawn is really not a sympathetic character at all. In fact, no one is! And while you know these are less characters than caricatures you also know the gap between them and the "real world" is often small. And, perhaps, getting smaller everyday.

Won "Jury Prize Dramatic" at Sundance in 1996. Huh? Dramatic? That's like Jethro Tull winning the Grammy for "the best heavy metal album" category.

Or maybe it's me. There is an element of drama here -- Ralphie, Brandon -- but it doesn't ring true because all the other characters are practically cartoons. Aren't they?

WELCOME TO THE DOLLHOUSE
Written and directed by Todd Solondz

Cookie: [walks up with cheeleaders] Hey, Dawn, sorry to bother you, but we were just wondering, are you a lesbian?...Well, are you?
Dawn Weiner: No!
Lolita: Liar. She made a pass at me.
Cookie: [with group] Lesbo! Lesbo! Lesbo!

...

Missy: You know you're not supposed to drink in the TV room.
Missy: Mom, Dawn called me "lesbo".

...

Mother: Dawn, you are not leaving this table until you tell your sister that you love her!
[Hours later she's still sitting there]
Mother: Go to bed.

...

Dawn: Um, Ginger? Can I talk to you for a second? It's about Steve Rodgers. My brother told me you used to go out with Steve. Is it true?
Ginger: We fingerfucked. Once, last spring. That's it. It's all over now.

Later...

Dawn [to Steve]: Do you want to see my fingers?

...

Ralphie: You think you're hot shit, but you're really just cold diarrhea.

...

Dawn: I've been thinking seriously of building another clubhouse, and I wanted to know...would you be interested in being my first honorary member?
Steve: What? What are you talking about?
Dawn: The Special People Club.
Steve: "Special People"?
Dawn: What's the matter?
Steve: Do you know what '"special people" means?
Dawn: What?
Steve: "Special people" equals retarded. Your club is for retards.

...

Brandon: Why do you hang out with that faggot?
Dawn Weiner: Just because Ralphie's a faggot doesn't mean he's an asshole.
Brandon: Yeah, maybe.

...

Dawn: Brandon, wait! Where are you going? We still have some Yodels left!

...

Mother: They found her tutu!

...

Dawn: Did he rape her?
Mark: Nah. I think he videotaped her doing some pirouettes, but that's it.
Dawn: Is she in the hospital?
Mark: No, she's here. She's the same. Actually, I think she may have liked being there 'cause she had her own TV and total control over the remote. She also got to have as much candy and McDonald's as she wanted.

...

Kids in school auditorium: Wienerdog! Wienerdog! Wienerdog! Wienerdog! Wienerdog! Wienerdog!

...

Dawn: Mark, is eighth grade better than seventh?
Mark: Not really.
Mark: All of junior high school sucks. High school's better. It's closer to college. They'll call you names...but not as much to your face.

...

Dawn: I don't want to go to Disney World.
Mark: Don't be stupid. If nothing else, it'll look good on your college resume.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
iambiguous: a post from Pedro?

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 38509
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

Yet another frame of mind I cannot really even imagine. What is it like to be swallowed whole by a cult? I think: Isn't it really a craving to banish dasein? The yearning to make everything in life a ritual. And, in being a ritual, necessary? Or is my own rendition of nihilism just another kind of oblivion?

One thing's for sure: in or out of a cult each community has its own set of rules. In part, of course, because they have to. But rules and rituals can be very, very different things.

But what happens when you become lost in both worlds? You crawl into one of your own. A different set of delusions altogether. Well, anyway, if you [or those around you] can afford to.

What makes this film exceptional [for me] are all the things we can only guess at. The ending in particular.

IMDb

"There are quite a few similarities between Patrick's cult or Martha's story in this movie and the real-life Charles Manson 'family' group. Among them: Manson, like Patrick, attracted a group of young and attractive but damaged young men and especially women to a remote, rural compound. Manson often renamed the members of his family--just as Patrick decided that Martha should be named 'Marcy May,' Manson dubbed Susan Atkins 'Sadie Mae Glutz.' Manson, like Patrick, made sex with all or nearly all of the women a requirement of 'family' membership, and both the real Manson and the fictional Patrick encouraged everyone to have multiple sexual partners. Manson murderer Susan Atkins had experienced the early death of her mother and subsequently started having behavioral problems that made her vulnerable to the cult's allure, as Martha had, and Manson murderer Patricia Krenwinkel fled to a relative's home after the murders because she was scared the 'family' would track her down, as Martha did. Manson, like Patrick, had his more trusted members go out of the compound at night to break into wealthy people's homes, steal from them, disrupt and terrorize their lives, and ultimately kill some of them."

MARTHA MARCY MAY MARLENE
Written and directed by Sean Durkin

Martha [seemingly out of the blue to Lucy]: Is it true married people don't fuck?

...

Ted [as Martha skinny dips]: That's an interesting choice of swimwear.

...

Lucy: Martha! What are you doing?
Martha: What?
Lucy: Would you put some clothes on, you can't swim naked.
Martha: Why?
Lucy: You just can't. There are kids around and people come by.
Martha: So?

...

Patrick: If you feel safe here, and I think you do, let us in. We just want to help you.
Zoe: Yeah, we think you're fucking awesome.
Patrick: But if you're going to live here then you really need to be a part of things.

Like this:

Katie [after Marcy May/Martha has basically been raped by Patrick]: I know you feel like something bad just happened Marcy May, but you have to trust me, that was not bad, it was truly good. We've all been in this situation, and we wouldn't all still be here if what happened in that room was bad. We all love each other very much, we are all together on this, you have to trust us. Do you believe me?
[Martha nods.]

...

Zoe: You're so lucky, I'd give anything to have my first time again.
Martha: Really?
Zoe: Yeah, it's so special.
Martha: I can't remember anything, I just woke up on the floor and felt this pain
Zoe: That's the cleansing. It's good. It means it's working if you can't remember things. You're cleansing yourself of the past and the toxins.
[Martha is distant]
Zoe: You need to share yourself, don't be so selfish.
Martha: I'm not.
Zoe: So smile then, enjoy this amazing night. It only happens once.

Like I said, anything can be rationalized. Fortunately, we have real philosophers here who can tell us what is okay and not okay to rationalize.

Lucy: Why would you think it's okay to come in here like that?
Martha: I don't know. It's a big bed. You guys were on the other side.
Lucy: You can't just come into our room when we're having sex. That's not normal. It's private.
Martha: Sorry.
Lucy: You don't need to apologize. Just - I need you to understand why it's not okay.
Martha: Okay.
Lucy: Do you?
Martha: Yeah.
Lucy: Well?
Martha: Because it's private and not normal.
Lucy: Oh, God.

...

Lucy: I'm her only family, you know. She needs to know that she can depend on me right now. It's complicated.
Ted: As complicated as it might be, we can't ignore the fact that her behavior is fucking insane

...

Lucy: Martha, I think the world of you, I'm just wondering if I should have come back and kept you in school and helped you go to college, you had so much potential.
Martha: I don't need your guidance, I never did. I'm a teacher and a leader, you just never let me be that but now I know I am, I know who I am.

...

Martha: People don't need careers, people should just exist. [Ted laughs.]
Ted: I have moments when I would love to move to France and just exist but it doesn't work that way.
Martha: You can do that if you want to.
Ted: It's not that simple.
Martha: (cautiously): It's not your fault but you learned that success is measured by money and possessions. It's just not the right way to live.
Ted: And what do you think the right way to live is? Is it vanishing off the face of the earth, not calling your family for two years or until they are worried sick about you. Is that the right way to live? Or is it, I don't know, living without possessions until you actually need someone and then showing up on pour doorstep where you know you can get some? You sit there lecturing us about our lives and so far, I have not witnessed one sign that you have any values pf your own. You should remember that you sleeping under my roof and you are eating my food so watch your mouth because you are rude.
Martha: You don't know anything about it.

...

Patrick: You know that death is the most beautiful part of life, right? Death is beautiful because we all fear death. And fear is the most amazing emotion of all because it creates complete awareness. It brings you to now, and it makes you truly present. And when you're truly present, that's nirvana. That's pure love. So death is pure love.

Uh, right. How do these people mange to convince themselves of things like that? Or, perhaps, more to the point, why can't I?

Ted: What's going on?
Lucy: Who the fuck knows.

...

Martha: [about their robbery victim] Zoe, I can't stop thinking about that man.
Zoe: Yeah. I know. We're never really dead or alive; we just exist. So he's still existing, but it's in a parallel time. Just don't think about it.

...

Lucy: What the fuck happened?
Ted: She kicked me down the fucking stairs. Jesus Christ, what's it going to take, Lucy?
Lucy [to Martha]: You could have killed him.
Martha: I was confused.
Martha: I thought he was someone else.
Lucy [her anger building]: You thought he was someone else? What is wrong with you?!
[pause]
Lucy: I'm not doing this anymore, I'm not doing this anymore. I beat myself up over you for all these years and I'm sick of it, I'm sick of chasing you down and worrying about you. I need to move on.
Martha: I'm sorry.
Lucy: You need help Martha.
Martha: I know.
Lucy: What happened to you? [Martha shakes her head with a severe look of fear in her eyes] What happened to you?!
Martha [screaming] I DON'T KNOW!!
Lucy: We're going to get you proper help.
Martha: Are you going to send me away?
Lucy: We're trying to have a family and I don't feel safe with you here.
Martha: Lucy?
Lucy: What?
[louder]
Lucy: What?
Martha: You're gonna be a terrible mother.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
iambiguous: a post from Pedro?

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 38509
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

For some, if there is something in their life they want [maybe desparately] but lack they will readily delude themselves into believing it is within their grasp. They will even create a reality in their head that bares almost no resemblance to the world as it is.

This seems especially true when that which is lacking is love. Or lust. Or both. And if you feel you deserve it...worlds can crumble. You want two things but, in the end, you can only have one. But sometimes the end doesn't really come until you have neither one.

The only antedote for this is to, first and foremost, always -- always -- become your own best friend. Some here are particularly lucky. They actually come to thrive on it.

But this is also a movie about class. Still, where one ends and the other begins can get tricky as hell.

NOTES ON A SCANDAL
Directed by Richard Eyre

Barbara [voiceover]: Here come the local pubescent proles. The future plumbers, shop assistants, and doubtless the odd terrorist too. In the old days, we confiscated cigarettes and wank mags. Now it's knives and crack cocaine. And they call it progress.

...

Headmaster [holding a single sheet of paper]: This is your report on the history department? On its entire workings?
Barbara: You'll find it's quite thorough, Headmaster.
Headmaster [reading the report out loud]: "The history department functions much as one would expect for a school of this stature and intake. Examination results have been consistent for 30 years: below the national average but above the level of catastrophe. Recommendation: no change necessary".
Barbara: Took me most of the summer to write it.

...

Barbara: Why were you fighting? Perfectly simple question.
Steven: [mumbles] Dunno, miss.
Barbara: You don't know. One minute you're an inert lump, the next you're trying to castrate a fellow pupil. Nothing occurred between these two states?

...

Sheba: When you started teaching, didn't you want to give them a real education to help overcome... the poverty of their backgrounds?
Barbara: Oh yes, of course. But one soon learns that teaching is crowd control. We're a branch of the social services.
Sue: Console yourself with the gems. That's when it's satisfying. Then you can make a real difference.
Barbara: The rest is just cattle-prod and pray.

...

Barbara [voiceover watching Sheba and her brood dance after eating]: After lunch a rather mortifying family tradition. They do things differently in bourgeois bohemia.

...

Barbara [voiceover]: It's a peculiar trait of the priveleged: immediate, incautious intimacy. But Sheba went well beyonde the tendencies of her class. She was utterly incautious.

...

Sheba: You know, marriage and kids---I mean it's wonderful. But doesn't give you meaning. It gives you an imperative but it doesn't help you...My father always used to say... you know, on the tube..."Mind the gap". I don't know...it's just the distance between life as you dream it, and life as it is.
Barbara: I know exactly what you mean.

...

Barbara [voiceover]: A gold star day!

...

Barabara [voiceover]: S. and I share the ability to see through the quotidian awfulness of things. In a different, better age, we would be ladies of leisure, lunching together, visiting galleries, traveling, putting the world to right. We would be...companions.

Unless, of course, she's screwing around with one her students.

Sheba: I hadn't been pursued like this for years...I knew it was wrong, and immoral, and completely ridiculous, but, I don't know. I just allowed it to happen.
Barbara: The boy is fifteen!
Sheba: But he's quite mature for his age!
Barbara: "But" is not a helpful word here.
Sheba: This is going to sound sick, but something in me felt...entitled. You know, I've been good all my adult life. I've been a decent wife, a dutiful mother coping with Ben. This voice inside me kept saying "why shouldn't you be bad, why shouldn't you transgress? I mean, you've earned the right."

...

Barbara: We are bound by the secrets we share

...

Barbara: [voiceover] And then I realised my fury had blinded me. There was a magnificent opportunity here. With stealth, I might secure the prize long-term, forever in my debt. I could gain everything by doing nothing.

...

Steven [giving Sheba a necklace as a Christmas present]: It's made of real fake gold.

...

...

Sheba: So that's your vicious father?
Steven: You wanted a sob story, I gave it to you. Made you feel like Bob Geldof.
Sheba: You lied to me!
Steven: Ooooh, sorry, Miss! What, would you prefer it if I lived in a shithole?
Steven: I think she's gonna pull through. What do you want? What're you doin' here?

...

Steven: I really like you. You're a nice person, and you've been cool, and it's been great, okay? But it's supposed to be fun. Now it's a serious thing. Whatever shit you're working out, you know, with your husband, your kid, you - I don't know. I can't help you.

...

Barbara: People languish for years with partners who are clearly from another planet. We want so much to believe that we've found our other. It takes courage to recognise the real as opposed to the convenient.

...

Barbara: When I was at school, if one of us had had some bad news or was a bit down, we used to stroke each other. You know, someone would do one arm and someone else the other. It was a wonderful sensation. Did you do that at your school?
Sheba: [embarrassed] No.
[Barbara looks down at Sheba's cleavage]
Barbara: It's incredibly relaxing - for the giver and the receiver.
[Barbara takes Sheba's hands in hers]
Barbara: Close your eyes. It doesn't work if you don't.
[Barbara starts to stroke her fingers up and down Sheba's forearms]
Barbara: That's a good girl.
[Sheba pulls away, her face showing revulsion]
Sheba: I think that's enough.
Sheba: [firmly] I really think that's enough, Barbara.

...

Barbara [voiceover]: You say the words and it's done. Easy. Judas had the grace to hang himself, but only according to Matthew, the most sentimental of the apostles. Is this the last night of her old life.

...

Barbara [voiceover]: People like Sheba think they know what it is to be lonely. But of the drip, drip of the long-haul, no-end-in-sight solitude, they know nothing. What it's like to construct an entire weekend around a visit to the launderette. Or to be so chronically untouched that the accidental brush of a bus conductor's hand sends a jolt of longing straight to your groin. Of this, Sheba and her like have no clue.

...

Richard: You're his teacher!
Sheba: And you were mine! I'm not justifying. I'm not trying to justify it...
Richard: You are so full of shit! It's totally different. You were twenty!
Sheba: He's sixteen in May. He's not some innocent...
Richard: Of course he's innocent! He's fucking fifteen! Are you insane? If you meant to destroy us, why not do it with an adult? That's the convention, it's worked for centuries!
Richard: W-W-Why?!
Sheba: I j-just wanted him.
Sheba: I don't know!
Richard: Well, find out!!

...

Barbara: [voiceover after Sheba has moved in with her] This last month has been the most delicious time of my life. Of course we have had our ups and downs. The pressure is intense when two women share their lives. But, oh, but what marvellous intensity it is! Circumstances are not always ideal. The swinish press, the stringent bail terms, meetings with lawyers and so on. But all things considered, we're coping admirably. In fact, gold stars abundant. The cuckold permits her to see their children once a week. Thee are usually tears and fits of teenage tantrums, too. In time she'll recognise she's just not the mothering kind, and then Barbara will be there to comfort her. Nurse, beloved friend and wise counsel.

Then Sheba finds the diary...

Sheba: What you say about me, about Richard - you're not fit to shine his shoes. And Ben, and Polly, that I'd be happier without them. Why did you do it?
[slaps Barbara]
[slaps Barbara again]
Sheba: You've cost me my family!

...

Sheba: You think I wanted to be here with you?
Barbara: You need me, I'm your friend!
Sheba: You put me in prison, I could get TWO years!
Barbara: They'll fly by! I'll visit you every week! We've so much life to live together!
Sheba: You think this is a love affair? A relationship? What, sticky gold stars, and - and a strand of my hair? A sticker from Pizza Express? It's a flat in the Archway Road and you think you're Virginia frigging Woolf! And where did you get my hair? Did you pluck it from the bath with some special fucking tweezers?

...

Barbara: You know it's rude to read a person's diary, it's private!
Sheba: We're not companions! We're not friends! You don't even like me!
Barbara: That's not true, I only have tender feelings for you, only love!
Sheba: You're barking, fucking mad. You don't know how to love. You have never, your whole life. Me, Jennifer Dodd. You're nothing but waste and disappointment! You bitter old virgin. You're lonely for a reason. They loathed you at school, all of them. I was the idiot who bothered, but only because no one told me you're a fucking vampire! So what is it, Bar? You want to roll around the floor like lovers? You want to fuck me, Barbara?

...

Sheba [out on the street confronting the reporters]: Here I am! HERE I AM!!

...

Barbara: I'm Barbara.
Annabel: Annabel
Barbara: I wonder, Annabel, do you like music?
Annabel: Oh, yes.
Barbara: Uh, it's just that I've got tickets for Handel's Water Music at the Albert Hall.
Annabel: Oh.
Barbara: On Saturday night. You could bring a friend if there's, uh, someone.
Annabe: Oh, no. Oh, no. There isn't.
Barbara: Well, there we are.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
iambiguous: a post from Pedro?

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 38509
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

It must get exhausting being someone others think you are instead who you think you are yourself. And being in show biz -- does that make it harder or easier?

But where's the Marilyn Monroe some insist is bursting at the seams with intelligence and depth and complexity. Just how far below the surface was it? But then what do I know about her?

And what must it have been like to fall in love with her? Did Colin get any closer to the person Marilyn thought she was herself?

Unfortunately, there seems to have been no one around back then able to properly introduce her to dasein. As dasein you expect to be both broken into pieces and misunderstood. You don't even really understand the pieces yourself.

IMDb

"Scarlett Johansson was approached for the part of Marilyn Monroe but turned it down."

Hmm...

"Colin Clark went on to have a successful career in film and television making. After retiring from filmmaking in the 1980s he became an author whose books included 'My Week with Marilyn' and 'The Prince, the Showgirl and Me,' both of which form the basis for this film. He died in 2002 at the age of 70."

Here's the thing though: The stuff in these books [and this film] could be mostly bullshit. Marilyn was dead so who can say what really happened when the two of them were together alone back then?

MY WEEK WITH MARILYN
Directed by Simon Curtis

[first lines]
Title Card: In 1956, at the height of her career, Marilyn Monroe went to England to make a film with Sir Laurence Olivier. While there she met a young man named Colin Clark, who wrote a diary about the making of the film. This is their true story.

...

Colin: I'm off now, Mama.
Mother: Off?
Colin: My job interview, remember..?
Mother: Can't you stay for dinner? There's nothing to eat but I'm sure the conversation will be charming.

...

Sir Laurence: You in the union?
Colin: No.
Sir Laurence: Then you can't have a job on the film.
Colin: Well, how do I get into the union?
Sir Laurence: By getting a job on the film.

...

Sir Laurence: Third's job is to do whatever the fuck I tell him.

...

Sir Laurence: She should be on time like everyone else.
Milton: She's a star.
Sir Laurence: I'm a fucking star.
Arthur: She's the greatest piece of ass on earth. With tits like that, you make allowances.

...

Sir Laurence: Marilyn, my darling, you are an angel and I kiss the hem of your garment but why can't you get here on time for the love of FUCK?
Marilyn: Oh, you have that word in England too?

...

Sir Laurence: Marilyn, will you just try to be sexy. Isn't that what you do?

...

Sir Laurence: Trying to teach Marilyn how to act is like teaching Urdu to a badger!

...

Sir Laurence: Christ! Pills to sleep. Pills to wake up. Pills to calm her down. Pills to give her energy. No wonder she's permanently ten feet underwater!

...

Colin: Maybe she's scared.
Sir Laurence: We're all scared! I've spent half my professional life in abject bloody terror! It's what actors do!

...

Milton: She's not feeling the part.
Sir Laurence: It's a light comedy. How much feeling can it possibly require?

...

Sir Laurence: Remember boy, when it comes to women, you're never too old for humiliation.

...

Sir Laurence: What is Marilyn doing on the phone with my third fucking assistant?

...

Colin: It's agony for him because he's a great actor who wants to be a great film star, and it's agony for you because you're a great film star who wants to be a great actress. And this film won't help either one of you.

...

Marilyn: Do you know I've been married three times already? How did that happen?
Colin: You were just looking for the right man.
Marilyn: They always look right at the start.

...

Milton [to Colin]: Listen kid, I've known Marilyn for seven years. I fell in love with her just as you've done. We had ten days together, and that was it. She picked me up, she put me down, that's what she does. She breaks hearts. She will break yours.

...

Marilyn: All people ever see is Marilyn Monroe. As soon as they realize I'm not her, they run.

...

Lucy: Did she break your heart?
Colin: A little.
Lucy: Good, it needed breaking.

...

Sir Laurence: She's quite wonderful. No training, no craft to speak of. No guile, just pure instinct. She's astonishing.
Colin: You should tell her that.
Sir Laurence: Oh, I will, but she probably won't believe me. It's probably what makes her great. It's almost certainly what makes her profoundly unhappy...I tried my best to change her, but she remains brilliant, despite me.

...

Sir Laurence: I think directing a movie is the best job ever created, but Marilyn has cured me of ever wanting to do it again.

...

Marilyn: Don't forget me.
Colin: As if I could.

...

[last lines]
Colin: Here's what I remember most: her embrace. Her belief in me. And the joy she gave. That was her gift. When I think of her now, I think of that time when a dream came true. And my only talent was not to close my eyes.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
iambiguous: a post from Pedro?

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 38509
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

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