philosophy in film

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Re: philosophy in film

Postby iambiguous » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:23 pm

Simone deBeauvoir warned us it might come to this. Well, if only in America. :wink:

What starts out with the promise of everlasting bliss sinks down into "the deepest layer of prehistoric frog shit at the bottom of a New Jersey scum swamp".

And this happens countless times now in our "modern world".

Slapstick aside what is really endearing here is how a part of Oliver is completely oblivious to what the hell is going on. Right up to the end. He is so entangled in his own ego he can only see the world through it. And there must be millions like him. There might even be a few in here.

WAR OF THE ROSES
Directed by Danny Devito

Oliver: l'm sorry. You were just rambling on...
Barabara: Tell your own story next time you care so desperately what everybody thinks. Fuckface!
Oliver: They're my bosses.
Barabara: They're Gavin's bosses, too. But that didn't stop him from getting a footjob at dinner.

...

Oliver: God, l hope they didn't notice what a jerk l am.
Barbara: They never seem to.

...

Oliver: You sold liver to our friends?

...

Barbara: Somehow earning the money felt different from the money l get cashing a check. lt made me feel like trading in the Volvo on one of those four-wheel drive things with the big, knobby tires and the 200 horsepower engine. So l did. l'm gonna pick it up tomorrow.
Oliver: Thank you so much for telling me. And you think that you... need this? l mean, the Volvo was a fine car.
Barbara: l'll pay for it with my own money.
Oliver: How much does it cost?
Barabara: All right, l know it was kind of crazy but l just wanted it, OK? [pause] $35,000.
Oliver: So you only have to sell 700 more pounds of pâté.

...

Oliver: What the hell is wrong with you?!
[cut to Gavin's office]
Gavin: lf you're with a woman for any length of time, eventually, you'll ask her that question. lf she doesn't answer, that's trouble. And when trouble begins, it comes at you from directions you would never expect.


Then a scene that seems [to me] oddly out of place: a serious reflection on the lives we live.

Oliver: All those lives going on out there. People we'll never meet experiencing things we'll never know.
Gavin: We can't know. ln your own life, by this point, you think you know what's gonna be but...
Oliver: But you don't know.
Gavin: You don't know. lt's always just when you think you got it figured out when, bingo, something comes along and knocks you right on your ass.


Back to the farce...

...

Oliver: l think you owe me, after this many pretty goddamn good years of marriage, a solid reason. l worked my ass off to make enough money to provide you with a good life, and you owe me a reason that makes sense. So let's hear it. Come on. Let's hear it. Let's hear it!
Barbara: Because when l watch you eat, when l see you asleep, when l look at you lately, l just wanna smash your face in.

...

Divorce lawyer [ reading Oliver's at-death's-door letter] ''All l am and all l have, l owe to you.'' You wrote this, Mr Rose?
Oliver: Excuse me, Mr Thurmont, you tiny, little, worm-like, infinitesimal prick, may l have a word with my wife, please?
Divorce lawyer: Certainly.

...

Oliver: l may have let you have the house, but now you'll never get it. You. Will. Never. Get. That. House. Do you understand? You will never get that house!!
Barbara: We'll see.

...

Barbara: Maybe l shouldn't have let you see that letter.
Divorce lawyer: Dear girl, by the time this is all over, you'll think of today as one of your lighter moments.

...

Gavin: What do you call 500 lawyers at the bottom ofthe ocean? An excellent start. l used to resent jokes like that. Now l see them as simple truths.

...

Oliver: You owe me. You've gotten more out of knowing me than l've got out of knowing you.
Barbara: l'm not even gonna ask you what that means. l found this house! l bought everything in it!
Oliver: With my money! lt's a lot easier to spend it than it is to make it, honeybun!
Barbara: You might not have made it if not for me, sweet cakes!

...

Oliver: The red areas are hers. The yellow areas are mine. Green is neutral. The kitchen was difficult, but Barbara came up with the idea of time allotment.
Gavin: This seems rational to you both?
Oliver: Yeah.
Gavin: Why don't you let her have the house? There are other houses. And other women.
Oliver: No, no, no. l'm going to win because l've got her to accept the ground rules.
Gavin: Oliver, there is no winning in this. lt's only degrees of losing.
Oliver: But l got more square footage!!

...

Gavin: Sometimes l wonder what might have happened if l'd taken her offer. But l didn't. l should have seen her toes in the pit of my crotch as a cry for help.

...

At 15 l became an evolutionist, and it all became clear. We came from mud. And after 3.8 billion years of evolution, at our core is still mud. Nobody can be a divorce lawyer and doubt that.

...

Oliver: So, how am l supposed to respond to that? You're telling me you wished l was dead?!
Barbara: l thought it was important to mention.

...

Oliver: We haven't passed any point of no return.
Barbara: l have.
Oliver: l'm not convinced. Nobody who makes pâté this good can be all bad.
Barbara: That depends on what the pâté is made of.
[long pause]
Woof.
Oliver: Bennie?!
Barbara: A good dog to the last bite.

...

Barbara: Have you ever made angry love?
Gavin: Is there any other way?

...

Oliver: You weren't even multiorgasmic before you met me!
Barbara: You really expect me to keep on reassuring you sexually even now when we disgust each other?

...

Gavin: There are two dilemmas that rattle the human skull. How do you hold onto someone who won't stay? And how do you get rid of someone who won't go?

...

Barbara: I would never humiliate you like this!
Oliver: You're not equipped to, honey.

...

Mr. Fisk: [Speaking to the other guests after seeing Oliver urinating on the stove] A family tiff seems to be developing. I don't know if we should leave, but I definitely advise skipping the fish.

...

Oliver: [Oliver and Barbara pass each other on the stairs] Stinking bitch!
Barbara: Dumb bastard!
Oliver: Slut!
Barbara: Scum!
Oliver: Filth!
Barbara: Faggot!
[Passes Susan the maid]
Barbara Rose: Morning Susan.

...

Oliver: [after almost hitting Susan with a thrown chair] Oh, I'm sorry, Susan. I thought you were Barbara.

...

Oliver: I think I can swing this over to the balcony.
Barbara: Stop it! Stop it! stop it! I loosened the bolt, I was gonna drop it on you.
Oliver: Oooh. That's a good one

...

Gavin: Maybe it's not natural to stay married to one person for life. My parents did it. 63 years. A few of 'em good!
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: philosophy in film

Postby iambiguous » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:53 pm

Troubled kids? Our modern culture seems to mass produce them by the tens of thousands. Where does all that rage come from if not lives tossed and turned in a dog-eat-dog struggle to survive from paycheck to paycheck. These working stiff parents beget working stiff kids. As if there could be any other result. The solution has got to political. But most working stiff parents like most working stiff kids keep getting farther and farther removed from that. It's really fucking hopeless. Or at least way, way, way beyond the sort of "psychological counciling" that comes to the rescue here.

That's mostly just scripted.

But these are "just kids": dope, rock and roll, cartoon character super heroes, professional wrestlers, video games. And in some ways [whatever the "reason"] they do seem to be just "a bunch of fucking losers." They go outside the box only to reinforce it all the more.


MANIC
Directed by Jordan Melamed

Lyle: I'm gonna count to three and if you don't get up I'm gonna kill you. Don't think I won't do it, either. One... two...
Kenny: Did they tell you?

...

Lyle [in group therapy session]: "Who is the most important person in your life?" I don't really think I've met that person yet. But honestly, I think it's just as well 'cause I mean, I almost hope that...I almost hope that I never do meet him 'cause if I do I know he'll just fuck me over.

...

Dr Monroe: You know, I sure can't make you tell me, Lyle but I would really like to know what you think justifies hurting someone to the point where you almost kill them. I'm just curious how someone as seemingly intelligent as you could hurt another human being that bad and have no remorse for it whatsoever.
Lyle: He deserved it.

...

Lyle: My dad beat me up a few times when I was a kid. And this guy Chris knew about it. He thought it was really funny. Now he doesn't think it's so funny. If you say you wouldn't do the same thing you're fucking Iying.

...

Sara: You know Calabasas is full of fucking J.A.P.s and daddy's girls. I didn't exactly have the debutante thing goin' on. One day I saw her at McDonalds with the nose job crew. That was before I knew my place, so I sat down. My friend rolls her eyes and she says: 'What, you actually think you're good looking? 'Cause you walk around like you're all hot and you're really not.' Then the whole table started to laugh. And I cried for about three days and then I fuckin' resurrect, you know? I just realized that everyone I knew was fucking full of shit. And that's when I started doing whatever the fuck I wanted and not giving a flying fuck what people thought. So I don't really have any friends. I don't need any.
Tracy: We're friends.
Sara: [softly] Yeah

...

Chad: That's gotta be the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my entire life!
Sara: Don't fucking call me stupid.
Chad: I didn't say you were stupid, butch, I said your opinion was stupid, because it is!
Sara: Wolverine has steel plates in his bones
Chad: [interrupting] So what?
Sara: And Batman has a little fucking belt and a little fucking cape. What the hell is he gonna do with that? Wolverine would take him down in 2 seconds.
Chad: Batman is so much smarter, and so much more of an intelligent fighter then like
Sara: [interrupting] What is he gonna do? Throw fucking razors?
Chad: he knows like 8 different types of martial arts, he's like a ninja...
Sara: Batman is fucking homo.
Chad: Batman is not a homo. Batman bangs the hottest chicks in Gotham city, left and right, okay? He's a PLAYER!

...

Dr. Monroe [to Lyle]: Do you think you're the only one who gets pissed off and wants to fucking rage? I can break shit. I can scream like a motherfucker! All day long! [kicks a chair] Now what? Kenny's still fucked up, and I'm still miserable. I guess I gotta break some more shit. [flings a chair across the room] Get up, Lyle. Get up right now, Lyle. Get up! OK? Didn't work. I'm still pissed off. Maybe I need to fuck something else up now, huh? Maybe I need to punch somebody in the fucking face! Is that the solution? [pause] No, that ain't the solution, man. So what do I do? I just get on with my fucking life and I try to make something of it. Why are you here, man? Why are you alive? Do you want to be alive? Life is a struggle, Lyle. That's it. It's a struggle. That's the way it fucking is. Can you handle that? Can you handle that, Lyle?

...

Dr. Monroe: Lyle, I'm not gonna give you some hokey bullshit speech and tell you that if you come to some epiphany about your dad you're gonna make a breakthrough and everything's gonna be pizzas and blow jobs. Because the fact of the matter is it's quite possible that you're gonna have this rage within you somewhere until you die, man. Either you're gonna learn how to live with it or you're just gonna go on like you've been doing until you kill yourself or kill somebody else.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: philosophy in film

Postby iambiguous » Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:01 am

What is High Art? Well, it's everything that doesn't make Low Art Hgh Art.

What art is can always be deconstructed into babble whenever you start to talk about What Art Is. And it only gets all the more excriciating when you shift gears to what Great Art Is. Though there are "serious artists" no doubt who become infuriated when they hear stuff like that.

Anyway, a leaky ceiling and nothing is ever the same.

[Ally Sheedy and Patricia Clarkson are so good in this movie I can't watch them in other films without their performances here spilling over.]

HIGH ART
Written and directed by Lisa Cholodenko

Lucy: You need some help, G.
Greta: Look at yourself, Lucy.

...

Lucy's mother: What did you do to yourself? C'mon, tell me! What kind of problem?
Lucy: I don't know. It's not really a problem. It's more of an issue.
Lucy's mother: You just said a problem. Now it's an issue. Is it a problem or an issue?
Lucy: Both. I have a love issue, and a drug problem. Or maybe I have a love problem, and a drug issue. I don't know.

...

Arnie: I'll wait for you, ladies. Enjoy your fight.

...

Lucy: Where do you think I've been all week?
Greta: With the teenager.

...

Syd: The composition is so skillful that it seems really spontaneous, almost like a snapshot.
Lucy: I think it was a snapshot.
Syd: Well, it's like cultural studies or semiotics. Philosophy, you know? Foucault, Derrida, Kristava, whatever.

...

Syd [looking at one of Lucy's photographs]: Really, it ties into Barthes' whole conception of photographic ecstasy. The way he explores temorality and memory and meaning. I sounds really dry in the text, but when I'm looking at your pictures, I really feel like I understand it.

...

Lucy: I haven't been deconstructed in a long time.
Syd: Yeah, I bet you hate that.
Lucy: I don't hate it at all.

...

Harry: I have to say, Lucy, I love your older work. I find the realism incredibly honest.
Dominique: Lucy, I think your work has a certain allure right now---a cultural currency that we'd like to explore with you.
Lucy: A cultural currency?
Dominique: A certain cachet.
Harry: If I can interrupt, Lucy, I think Dominique is saying that the public can appreciate the rigor of your work now---the intimacy and desolation of your subjects.


Talking about What High Art Is in other words.

Arnie [preparing to shoot up]: I'm gonna feel so fuckin' good in about one fuckin' second.
Greta: I thought that was for me, Arnie.
Arnie [feeling the high]: No. That was definitely for me [pointing to another needle] that's for you.
Lucy: You guys are so glamorous.

...

Syd: I haven't slept with Lucy.
James: Are you working up to it?
Syd: I don't know.
James: Well, I think you have to start knowing.

...

James: I guess you're...you're really at the center of it all now, aren't you? You've got your power job, you got your hipster friends. All that access. I mean, it's the real shit.

...

Syd: I'm tring to get somewhere. And all I get from you are these slurs about my job and the people that I've met and how pretentious and meaningless and idiotic it is and....You know what? It's not meaningless to me. This is what I care about. I mean, what do you care about, James? I mean really---what?

...

Syd: Where's Lucy?
Arnie: Um, she died this morning.
Syd: That is a really fucked up thing to say to me. You don't know shit about me and Lucy, and I don't know what Greta has been telling you, but she is fucking gone.
Arnie: Just stop it, okay?
Syd: No! You don't understand!
Arnie: It doesn't fuckin ' matter! [Long pause...then he gets out of the car]
[then it slowly dawns on Syd that Lucy really is dead]


A really powerful scene.

The soundtrack is great too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CcFGWfxjAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNWXThu9N6Y
Last edited by iambiguous on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: philosophy in film

Postby iambiguous » Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:49 am

Go ahead, try and convince these bastards that what they do is immoral.

More than anything, this culture creates predators---folks who are pathologically selfish. Someone who is conventionally selfish considers the interests of others but chooses only that which will further his own. A pathologically selfish person will not take other people into account at all. Everyone is just a means to his own end.

Of course the guys on Wall Street and on K Street will insist that what they do is different. And it is. Except for the parts that are exactly the same.

Yet the folks who are the victums here are often driven by the same thing: the greed that comes from accummulating fast bucks.

And this story is based on the actual experiences of the screen writer.

BOILER ROOM
Written and directed by Ben Younger

[opening lines]
Seth: I read this article a while back, that said that Microsoft employs more millionaire secretary's that any other company in the world. They took stock options over Christmas bonuses. It was a good move. I remember there was this picture, of one of the groundskeepers next to his Ferrari. Blew my mind. you see shit like that, and it just plants seeds, makes you think its possible, even easy. And then you turn on the TV, and there's just more of it. The $87 Million lottery winner, that kid actor that just made 20 million o his last movie, that internet stock that shot through the roof, you could have made millions if you had just gotten in early, and that's exactly what I wanted to do: get in. I didn't want to be an innovator any more, i just wanted to make the quick and easy buck, i just wanted in. The Notorious BIG said it best: "Either you're slingin' crack-rock, or you've got a wicked jump-shot." Nobody wants to work for it anymore. There's no honor in taking that after school job at Mickey Dee's, honor's in the dollar, kid. So I went the white boy way of slinging crack-rock: I became a stock broker.

...

Jim: I am a fucking millionaire. And guess how old I am. Twenty-seven. You know what that makes me here? A fuckin' senior citizen.

...

Jim: People come to work here for one reason: to become filthy rich. We're not here to make friends. We're not savin' the manatees. You want vacation time? Go teach third grade.

...

Jim: Parents don't like the life you lead? "Fuck you, Mom and Dad!" See how it feels when you're makin' their fuckin' Lexus payments.

...

Seth: Its strange to think how that knock changed everything, everything. Hey don't get me wrong here, I don't believe in fate, I believe in odds.

...

Richie: When was the last time you closed something huh? You couldn't close a fuckin' window you moron!

...

Greg: I hope this is better than the last batch of shit you gave me. Produced more wood than Ron Jeremy. I don't want you to yell, "Reco!" anymore. Know what you should yell? "Timber!"

...

Seth: I had a very strong work ethic. The problem was my ethics in work.

...

Jim: And there is no such thing as a no sale call. A sale is made on every call you make. Either you sell the client some stock or he sells you a reason he can't. Either way a sale is made, the only question is who is gonna close? You or him? Now be relentless, that's it, I'm done

...

Jim: You have to be closing all the time! And be agressive. Learn how to push. Talk to 'em. Ask 'em questions. Ask 'em rhetorical questions. It doesn't matter. Anything. Just get a 'yes' out of 'em. 'If you're drowning and I throw a life jacket, would you grab it?' 'Yes!' 'Good. Pick up 200 shares. I won't let you down.' Ask 'em how they'd like to see 30, 40% return. What are they gonna say? 'No, fuck you, I don't wanna see those returns'?"

...

Jim: They say money can't buy happiness? Look at the fucking smile on my face. Ear to ear, baby.

...

Jim: Anybody who tells you money is the root of all evil doesn't fucking have any.

...

Greg: Now there's two rules you have to remember as a trainee, number one, we don't pitch the bitch here.
Seth: What?
Greg: We don't sell stock to women. I don't care who it is, we don't do it. Nancy Sinatra calls, you tell her you're sorry. They're a constant pain in the ass and you're never going to hear the end of it alright? They're going to call you every fucking day wanting to know why the stock is dropping and God forbid the stock should go up, you're going to hear from them every fucking 15 minutes. It's just not worth it, don't pitch the bitch.

...

Greg: The most important thing you gotta know right now is that you can be whoever you wanna be on the phone. Do what you gotta do. Say what you gotta say...Just keep the cocksucker on the line.
Seth: Yeah but how can I do shit like that? Isn't there a compliance officer here?
Greg: No. No, man. Everybody does that shit. Are you kidding? Even on Wall Street.


Their compliance officer works for them. He's a "fuckin' chimp".

Seth: I wish my dad could've stepped into the casino just once. He would've had to be impressed: four employees, an organized payroll, huge client list. You know, it's funny looking back. The illegal business I was running was the most legitimate thing I had going. I looked my customers in the eye and provided a service they wanted. Now, I don't even look at my customers and I push them things they never even asked for.

...

Seth: Come on, I asked you for months about shit going down here and you told me to shut the fuck up. You said, get ready to be a millionaire!
Chirs: That's right. Shut the fuck up. That's all you had to do. Didn't you learn anything?
Seth: I learned how to fuck people out of their money.

...

Father: I spoke to Howard Goldberg over at Prudential. You lied again, you unbelievable piece of shit. You lied to all of us. He told me about J.T. Marlin. It's a chop shop, Seth. You've being selling their shit all this time. How many people have you fucked over? Tell me, how many?

...

Father: This is worse than the casinio. This is stealing. You're destroying people's lives.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: philosophy in film

Postby iambiguous » Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:39 pm

Friends with money. But they come upon it in such an unusual way. And these friends are really arrogant, smug, elitist bastards. They loved to humiliate those beneath them. Which was practically everyone they came across. Cameron, for example. It was, therefore, rather satisfying to watch them [and their friendship] fall apart at the seams. But that's just me.

Unfortunately, the biggest scumbag of them all hits the jackpot in the end. Pinned to the floor by a knife driven through his shoulder.

While we cheer him on.


SHALLOW GRAVE
Directed by Danny Boyle

[opening lines]
David: I am not ashamed. I have known love. I have known rejection. I am not ashamed to declare my feelings; take trust for instance, or friendship. These are the important things in life. These are the things that matter, that help you on your way. If you can't trust your friends, well, what then. What then? Oh, yes. I believe in friends. I believe we need them. But if one day you can't trust them any more, well, what then. What then?


Then this:

Alex: It's not every day I find a story in my own flat.
Juliet: It's not a story, Alex. It's a corpse.

...

David: Is this what they always look like?
Juliet: Yes.
David: I've never seen a dead body before. I saw my grandmother, of course, but I don't suppose that counts. She was alive at the time.

...

David: It's a sick idea Alex. It's sick.
Alex: Go ahead then, telephone. Telephone the police. Tell them it's a suitcase full of money and you don't want it.

...

Juliet: Are you all right?
Alex: No.
Juliet: Then let's spend some money.

...

David: You paid 500 pounds for this?
Juliet: That's what it cost, David.
David: No, no, that's what you paid for it. 500 pounds is what you paid for it. We don't know how much it cost us yet. For you two to have a good time, we don't know the cost of that yet.

...

Juliet: I can't do it.
Alex: But Juliet, you're a doctor. You kill people every day.

...

Alex: Cameron, what a surprise!

...

Alex: His family? Drugged-up, suicidal fuck-ups don't have families.

...

Alex: If you can't have it - spend it - then what use is it? None. It's all for nothing. I didn't get into this for nothing, so that I could have nothing.
David: Yeah, and you didn't saw his feet off.

...

Alex [in agony]: It's in the loft! In the loft!

...

Alex: They went up there alive and came back down dead! Did you notice that? The difference, I mean: alive, dead, dead, alive, that sort of thing? It wasn't difficult to spot. He killed them both

...

Alex: God, you two are sensitive! All I'm doing is implying some kind of ugly sordid sexual liaison. I'd be proud of that sort of thing.

...

Juliet: It's about me and David.
Alex: The perfect couple, I should say.
Juliet: You mustn't take it so badly.
Alex: Don't worry. I'd do exactly the same thing, only I don't think I'm his type.

...

David: Don't be so coy, dear. You're going to Rio.
Juliet: What?
David: That's right. Rio de Janeiro, on your own. You should know. You bought the fucking ticket! [to Alex] Did you see that? I bet she didn't show you that before she sent you up there. What did she say? We'll split it together, you and me, fifty-fifty? [to Juliet] But I bet you didn't say you'd split on him.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: philosophy in film

Postby iambiguous » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:26 pm

Mathematics and murder. Though not necessarily in that order.

I'm terrible at solving these puzzles. But no less so at solving lots of other puzzles embedded in human interaction.

The plot's a bit hard to believe but not the mind obsessed enough to pursue it. The irony once again revolving around the gap between what this mind believes is true and what in fact is true instead. And this gap is a doozy.

What then is the mathematical equivalent of human psychology?


FERMAT'S ROOM [La habitación de Fermat] 2007
Written and directed by Luis Piedrahita, Rodrigo Sopeña

[first lines]
Galois: Do you know what prime numbers are? Because if you don't, you should just leave now.

...

Hilbert [reading from a letter he received]: "If you are capable of solving the following puzzle, which I don't doubt, you will be invited to a weekend gathering with the most ingenius mathematical minds. Sincerely, Fermat."
Friend: What's the puzzle?
Hilbert: A sequence of numbers --- 5-4-2-9-8-6-7-3-1 --- You have to find the pattern.


Consider Rosetta Stone before you try it yourself.

Hilbert: The more you study logic, the more you value coincidence.

...

Hilbert: This reminds me of the riddle about the shepherd who has to cross the river in a boat with a sheep, a wolf and a cabbage. You know it? Only two can go in the boat. For example, the shepherd and the sheep, or the shepherd and the cabbage. You have to work out how he can cross the river without the wolf eating the sheep or the sheep eating the cabbage.
Pascal: Why would a shepherd bring a wolf? What's more, I don't see what it has to do with this situation.
Oliva: Perhaps Professor Hilbert meant that one of us is the shepherd; another, the wolf; another, the sheep; and another, the cabbage

...

Hilbert: Kepler's old problem about how to pile up spherical forms.
Galois: It's still unsolved, no?
Pascal: The fact is, mathematicians worry about stupidities with no practical application.
Galois: It's not stupid to be famous for solving a problem. It should be any mathematician's dream.
Pascal: Then I'm not any mathematician.
Hilbert: I recently read a study about the human being's most common impossible wishes---to fly and to be invisible, not to resolve mathematical enigmas.

...

Pascal: When you investigated Fermat and got all that information, do you remember if he was a murderer?

...

Galois: What happens if we don't solve it in one minute?
Pascal: The wall is moving....The room is shrinking.

...

Galois: You think it'll resist?
Pascal: Pressure is unpredictable. It can turn coal into dust or a diamond.
Hilbert: Was that Archimedes?
Pascal: No, MacGyver.

...

Policeman: Don't you know that 28% of people who die on the roads travel like you, without their safety belt?
Fermat: So all the rest, the other 72%, die with their belt on.

...

Oliva: I won't fit!
Pascal: If your head fits, your body fits.
Oliva: Try fitting your ass into a helmet!


One of the numerous puzzles they must solve to keep the room from shrinking:

Pascal: In the False Land, all the inhabitants always lie. In the True Land, all the inhabitants always tell the truth. A stranger is trapped in a room that has two doors. One door leads to freedom, the other doesn't. The doors are guarded by a jailer from the False Land and another from the True Land. To find the door to freedom the stranger can only ask one question to one of the jailers, but he doesn't know which is from the False Land and which is from the True Land. What question should he ask?

...

Hilbert: Then I really was first. I resolved Goldbach's Conjecture before anoyone...


oops

Oliva: Why don't we just admit we're going to die.
Pascal: We'll die at the same age as Galois, Sabuco and Pascal but David Hibert died in his 80s. This guy wasn't intending to die. This room was a test of our intelligence. There must be a way of passing it.

...

Oliva: What will you do with that?
Galois: It's a problem. If I publish this demonstration just as it is, Efren Cuevas will go down in history and he'll have won. But if I publish it with my name, it wouldn't be ethical, but it would be the easiest for me, and take a load off my mind.
Pascal [taking the proof and tossing it into the lake]: Problem solved.
Galois: But why?! It was the solution to a problem unsolved for over 250 years. How can you do that to the world?
Pascal [looking around] The world is as it was.


And to this day Goldbach's Conjecture remains unsolved.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: philosophy in film

Postby iambiguous » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:45 pm

Yes, the same Walter Herzog who made Gizzly Man, Encounters at the End of the World and Cave of Forgotten Dreams.

From Wiki:

"Although plot details and many of the characters in Aguirre come directly from Herzog’s own imagination, historians have pointed out that the film fairly accurately incorporates some 16th-century events and historical personages into a fictional narrative. The film’s major characters, Aguirre, Ursúa, Guzman, Inez, and Florés, were indeed involved in a 1560 expedition that left Peru to find the city of El Dorado. Commissioned by Peru’s governor, Ursúa organized an expeditionary group of 300 men to travel by way of the Amazon River."

A long time ago and far away. But in some respects it is just around the corner. Might can make it right. And madness can make it all the more grueling to endure.

As with Ran you can mute the sound and the sub-titles. Just let it all flow by visually.


AGUIRRE THE WRATH OF GOD [Aguirre, der Zorn Gottes] 1972
Written and Directed by Werner Herzog

Gaspar: Our indian slaves are useless. The changing climate kills them off like flies. Most of them die of colds. We don't even have time to give them a Christian burial.

...

Aguirre: Perucho, don't you think the cannon might be a little bit rusty?

...

Inez: You are our last hope.
Gasper: Thou lettest man flow on like a river and Thy years know no end. As for man his days are like grass, as a flower in the field so he blossoms. For when the wind passes over it and it's gone, and the place thereof shall know it no more. You know, my child, for the good of our Lord the Church was always on the side of the strong.

...

Pedro: Don't be afraid. Aguirre would never dare to rebel against the Spanish crown.
Inez: We are not in Castile here.

...

Perucho: La la la la la...la la la la la

...

Runo [to Flores]: The Spaniards gave me the name Balthasar but my real name is Runo Rimac. It means, He who speaks". I was a prince in this land. No one was alowwed to look directly into my eyes. But now I'm in chaims like my people. Almost everything was taken from us. I can't do anything. I'm powerless. But I am also sorry for you because I know there is no escape from this jungle.

...

Gasper [to Runo]: Has this savage ever heard of our savior Jesus Christ? And of our mission to spread the true word of God? [to the Indian] This is the Bible. It contains the words of God that we preach to bring light into the darkness of your world [to Runo] Does he understand at all, that this book contains the Word of God? [to the Indian]: Take it in your hand, my son.
[the Indian brings the Bible to his ear to hear the Word of God]
Runo [translating]: He says, it doesn't talk.
[the Indian drops the book]
Gasper: Kill him for blasphemy!

...

Fernando: All the land to our left and all the land to our right now belongs to us. I solemnly and formally take possession of all this land. Our country is already six times larger than Spain, and everyday we drift makes it bigger.
Aguirre: Have you seen any solid ground that would support your weight?

...

Aguirre [to Perucho]: That man is a head taller than me. That may change.

...

Aguirre: I am the great traitor. There must be no other. Anyone who even thinks about deserting this mission will be cut up into 198 pieces. Those pieces will be stamped on until what is left can be used only to paint walls. Whoever takes one grain of corn or one drop of water... more than his ration, will be locked up for 155 years. If I, Aguirre, want the birds to drop dead from the trees... then the birds will drop dead from the trees. I am the wrath of god. The earth I pass will see me and tremble. But whoever follows me and the river, will win untold riches. But whoever deserts...

...

Aguirre: Mexico was no illusion!

...

Aguirre: My men measure riches in gold. It is more. It is power and fame.

...

Gasper [from his journal]: February twenty-second. The suffering is dreadful. Most men have fever and hallucinations. Hardly anyone can stand upright. The soldier Justo Gonzales drank my ink, thinking it was medicine. I can no longer write. We are drifting in circles.

...

Okello: [Hallucinating] That is no ship. That is no forest.
[Arrow hits him]
Okello: That is no arrow. We just imagine the arrows because we fear them.

...

Aguirre: When we reach the sea we will build a bigger ship, sail north and take Trinidad from the Spanish crown. From there we'll sail on and take Mexico from Cortez. What great treachery this will be! Then, all of New Spain will be in our hands and we'll stage history like others stage plays. I, the wrath of God, will marry my own daughter and with her I'll found the purest dynasty the earth has ever seen. Together, we shall rule this entire continent. We will endure. I am the wrath of God! Who else is with me?!


All the others are dead.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: philosophy in film

Postby iambiguous » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:47 am

There are countless ways for a child to "come of age". This is one of them.

Just before each bout of introspection the lens shifts to the vast expanse of the cosmos itself. For, among other things, perspective. But how much can a child really know about all the things that shape [and then reshape] the "adult world"? Like being a mother too sick to love her own child.

MY LIFE AS A DOG [Mitt liv som hund] 1985
Directed by Lasse Hallström

Ingemar: Just think of Laika, the space dog. They stuck her in a Sputnik and blasted her into outer space. Wires in her brain and in her heart showed how she was doing. I don't think she felt too hot. For five months she circles the planet until her food ran out. Then she starved to death.

...

Gunnar: Was she nude?
Ingemar: Yes.
Gunnar: Stark naked? No clothes at all?
Ingemar: Nope.
Gunnar: How were the melons?
Ingemar: I don't know. I didn't really look.
Gunnar: I bet you saw something though.
Ingemar: I think they were hot.
Gunnar: I see. Uh, next time I'll go with you, that guy can't be trusted.
Ingemar: Don't worry. He doesn't care about her, only the lines.
Gunnar: Sure! That son of a bitch!

...

Berit: I had no idea you were so curious. Did you see much?
Ingemar: Everything.
Berit: If you keep this up, they won't let you take communion in church.
Ingemar: It was worth it.

...

Ingemar: Actually I'm lucky considering how things could be. You've got to compare things, get a frame of reference...You've got to keep a sense of proportion. This guy wanted to beat the record at jumping over buses on a motorcyle. He lined up 31 buses. If he'd settled for 30, he might have survived.

...

Gunnar: By the way the artist is now world famous. It's true. I could hardly believe it either. He exhibits all those naked ladies of his in the States. What a lucky guy. It twists you up inside.

...

Berit: Oh, you've got to see the sculpture. It's still only a model but I'll be up in the square in Kalmar.
Worker: That's not all that will be up.

...

Grandmother: Yes, indeed, life is difficult at times. It's not easy being left over.

...

Ingemar: Strange, but I can't help thinking about Laika, But it's not good to think too much.

...

Saga: I've grown. I don't think binding will help any more. That means no more soccer for me.
Ingemar: It's not that bad.
Saga: Take a look.


I think she'll still fool them for a year or two more.

Saga: What's wrong, do you need tweezers to pull it out?

...

Saga [to Ingemar barking like a dog]: What are you supposed to be? That dog of yours? It's dead. Haven't you caught on to that yet?

...

Ingemar: Keep them in suspense, you bastards!

...

Ingemar: You've got to compare things. Take Laika, for instance. They must have known they couldn't bring her down again. They knew she would die. It was like putting her down.

...

Ingemar [weeping]: Why didn't you want me, Mama? Why didn't you want me?


Yet she wanted him dearly.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: philosophy in film

Postby Ben JS » Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:31 pm

You've good taste in movies.

I might come around to throwing in a few movies (if you don't mind) when I'm in the right mood.

Anyhow, just wanted to compliment your taste.
Formerly known as: Joe Schmoe

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Re: philosophy in film

Postby iambiguous » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:40 pm

Joe Schmoe wrote:You've good taste in movies.

I might come around to throwing in a few movies (if you don't mind) when I'm in the right mood.

Anyhow, just wanted to compliment your taste.


Thanks. Anyone can post here. If a movie makes you think [about anything] why not share it with others. I just like to add chunks of dialogue to illustrate my reactions.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: philosophy in film

Postby iambiguous » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:39 pm

What is fantasy and what is real? Bunuel is always taking us back and forth between them. That and the surreal.

How close or how far away is Bunuel here from gender roles "as nature intended"? It's no where near my own assumptions. But how close are they?

You have to keep reminding yourself there really are men like this out in the world. Sexually, we are still beasts. But, for some, the options will border on endless.

And always that inner child of the past [and Papa] shaping her in ways she is barely conscious of.

From IMDb:

"According to Luis Buñuel scholar Julie Jones, Buñuel once said that he himself didn't know what the end exactly means."

You make progress philosophically when you realize it is the same for the parts in the beginning and the parts in the middle too.


BELLE DE JURE
Written and directed by Luis Buñuel

Madame Anais: I have an idea. Would you like to be called "Belle de Jour"?
Séverine Serizy: Belle de Jour?
Madame Anais: Since you only come in the afternoons.

...

Madame: Did you watch? What do you say?
Belle de Jour: How can anyone sink so low? You might be used to it, but I'm disgusted.

...

Butler [knocking on the door]: Your Lordship. Can I let the cats in?
Duke: Leave us alone! [then to Belle de Jour lying naked in a coffin] We are alone. The doors are closed [He laughs] Now your eyes won't open again. Your body is still. Worms are eating you up. And the smell of dead flowers fills the room.
[He sinks to the floor and the coffin starts to shake. Belle de Jour rises in the coffin and looks down to the floor. What she sees is left to our imagination]

...

Hyppolite: For less I'd break my father's head. But friendship first. We won't fight over a slut.

...

Henri: Is this your bed?
Belle de Jour: You make me sick, I already told you that. Yes, it's my bed! What else do you want to know?!
Henri: You like being humiliated. I don't.

...

Belle de Jour: Why can't you understand? I'm lost. I can't help it. I can't resist it. I know I'll pay dearly but I can't live without it. [motioning towards the bed] Do as you wish with me.
Henri: Not now. What attracted me to you was your virtue. You were the wife of a boy scout. That's changed. Unlike you, I have principles.

...

Henri [putting money on the table as he leaves the room]: This isn't for you. Get Pierre some chocolates for me.


Here is the international trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJXLCYZMGQ8

But you really do have to see the entire film before you come to conclude it will mean different things to different people.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: philosophy in film

Postby iambiguous » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:03 pm

As pacts with the Devil go, this one fits right in with the American Dream: Fortune and fame. And it's nice to finally know how it's done. :wink:

Not believing in the supernatural myself I can only marvel at a world where such evil things occur. Instead of the evil things I am more familiar with in the world in which we live.


ROSEMARY'S BABY
Written and directed by Roam Polanski

Roman: No pope ever visits a city where the newspapers are on strike.
Minnie: I heard he's gonna postpone and wait till it's over.
Guy: Well, that's showbiz.
Roman: That's exactly what it is: all the costumes, the rituals - all religions.

...

Rosemary: Tannis, anyone?

...

Rosemary: You...you had me while I was out?
Guy: It was kinda fun in a necrophile sort of way.

...

Rosemary: I dreamed someone was...raping me. I don't know, someone inhuman.
Guy: Thanks a lot!

...

Roman: To 1966! The year one!

...

Rosemary: What's in this drink?
Minnie: Snips and snails and puppy dog's tails.
Rosemary: Oh? And what if we wanted a girl?
Minnie: Do you?

...

Hutch: Pregnant women are supposed to gain, not lose weight!

...

Grace: He told me to make sure and tell you: the name is an anagram.

...

Hutch: Doesn't look like root matter, more like mould or fungus of some kind. Is it ever called any other name?
Roman: Not to my knowledge, no.
Hutch: Tannis. I must look it up in the encyclopaedia.

...

Minnie: Now! That's what I call the long arm of coincidence.

...

Rosemary picks up a copy of Time Magazine while waiting in Dr. Sapirstein's office. The cover story: IS GOD DEAD?


It's the real cover: April 8, 1966.

Rosemary: No. I don't believe you. You're both lying. You're lying! It didn't die! You took it! You're lying! You're lying! You're lying! You're lying! You're lying!

...

Guy: I know this is the worst thing that ever happened to you, but now everything's gonna be roses. Paramount's right where we want them, Universal's interested, and we're gonna blow this town and be in beautiful Beverly Hills with a pool and a spice garden, the whole schmeer, and kids, too, Ro. Scout's honour. You heard what Abe said. Now, I got to run now and get famous.

...

Rosemary: What have you done to him? What have you done to his eyes, you maniacs!
Roman: He has his father's eyes.

...

Minnie: He chose you, honey! From all the women in the world to be the mother of his only living son!

...

Rosemary: Oh, God. Oh, God.
Laura-Louise: Oh, shut up with your "Oh, Gods" or we'll kill you, milk or no milk!



The lullaby Rosemary sings at the end of the film. But forget the knife. Though that's the way most imagined it would end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk25DY_U54k

From IMDb:

Directed by Roman Polanski, whose pregnant wife actress Sharon Tate was murdered in 1969 by Charles Manson and his followers, who titled their death spree "Helter Skelter" after the 1968 song by The Beatles, one of whose members, John Lennon, would one day live (and in 1980 be murdered) in the Manhattan apartment building called The Dakota - where Rosemary's Baby had been filmed.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: philosophy in film

Postby iambiguous » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:25 am

Some go back in time in order to put themselves in the shoes of others. But others go back in order to put others in their own.

Personally, I have never really been all that comfortable when the focus shifts from the corpse to the condemned. But then capital punishment will always be a tug of war between conflictng goods.

This is really a film about how tricky the relationship can be between "the law" and events unfolding on the ground. The law is what it is but that is seldom the case regarding the "human condition". And striving to strike a balance will often evoke only the agony and the ecstacy of many conflicting points of view.

Even the executioner here is really just another victum.

Supposedly based on actual events.

THE WIDOW OF SAINT-PIERRE [La veuve de Saint-Pierre] 2000
Directed by Patrice Leconte

Neel: Fat!
Louis: Big!
Neel: Fat!
Louis: Big!
Neel: Fat!
Louis: Big!

...

Judge: Neel Auguste and Louis Oliver, if you want to get this over with, tell us why you tried to cut him up. Why did you want to cut him up?
Neel: To see if he was fat. Just to see if he was fat.
Louis: We wanted to see if he was big or fat. Big or fat?! BIG OR FAT?!!

...

Madame La: You are not my servant, Neel. I really appreciate your trust.
Neel: Why do you do this?
Madame La: Because people always change, no matter what. People can be evil one day, and good another. They change. And I am sure of that.


Yes, but that is only a reminder of how, given different circumstances still, they can change again. And tell it to the man Neel butchered in order to see if he was "big" or "fat".

The Governor: A murderer is still a man, some say. And your wife is so...modern.

...

Madame La: Neel? Why do you do everything I say?

...

Governor's wife [sitting among the Ladies]: He does not even have to fuck us to make cuckolds of our husbands.

...

Madame La: Why is he doing this?
Man: It's a shortcut to Hell.

...

Madame La: You see what kind of man he's become? One man gets accused, another gets punished.

...

Madame La: Quit annoying me with your good heart.

...

Judge: Only the law dictates what is legal and what is not.
Prosecutor: And you've just stepped out of the justice system. And your humanism will be severely looked down upon, especially in Paris. You'll be seen as a rebel, and even worse.
Governor [after Jean leaves the room]: He's done for.


And so is Neel.

After the execution:

Madame La: He never showed any sign of rebellion. He probably thought his crime was unforgivable and his punishment justified. "The Widow" did not work, and Neel Agusto had to be killed with an axe.

Jean faces a firing squad.

Madame La: My husband was accused of mutiny and executed. The public executioner mysteriously disappeared not long after these events.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: philosophy in film

Postby iambiguous » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:27 pm

There are the tricks magicians perform on the stage and the tricks they perform off it. The ones performed off the stage just like the ones we perform. The illusion of love. The illusion of commitment. The illusion of friendship.

We live in a world today where the stuff science concocts routinely would have been considered the stuff of magicians a century ago. How does one really explain the manner in which nature can be reconfigured into a smart phone?

"The audience knows the truth: the world is simple. It's miserable, solid all the way through." Well, more so for some than others.

And off the stage back then was the Tesla/Edison...tiff?


THE PRESTIGE
Written and directed by Christopher Nolan

Cutter: Every magic trick consists of three parts, or acts. The first part is called the pledge, the magician shows you something ordinary. The second act is called the turn, the magician takes the ordinary something and makes it into something extraordinary. But you wouldn't clap yet, because making something disappear isn't enough. You have to bring it back. Now you're looking for the secret. But you won't find it because of course, you're not really looking. You don't really want to work it out. You want to be fooled.

...

[after showing a little boy how to do a coin trick]
Alfred: Never show anyone. They'll beg you and they'll flatter you for the secret, but as soon as you give it up you'll be nothing to them.

...

[In reference to a bird from a trick]
Alfred: See? He's fine!
Boy: But where's his brother?

...

Judge: What a way to kill someone.
Cutter: They're magicians, your honor. Men who live by dressing up plain and simple truths to shock, to amaze.
Judge: Even without an audience?
Cutter: There was an audience.

...

Robert: I don't want to kill doves.
Cutter: Then stay off the stage. You're a magician not a wizard.

...

Sarah: Alfred I can't live like this!
Alfred: Well, what do you want from me?
Sarah: I want... I want you to be honest with me. No tricks, no lies, no secrets.
[pause]
Sarah: Do you... do you love me?
Alfred: Not today. No.

...

Olivia: He knows I work for you.
Robert: Exactly why he'll want to hire you. He'll want my secrets.
Olivia: Why would he trust me?
Robert: Because you're going to tell him the truth.

...

Olivia: [referring to Angier] He wants me to come work for you and steal your secrets.
Alfred: What does he need my secrets for? His trick is top-notch. He vanishes, and then he reappears instantly on the other side of the stage - mute, overweight, and unless I'm mistaken, very drunk. It's astonishing, how does he do it? And tell me, Olivia, does he enjoy taking his bows under the stage?

...

Olivia: He sent me here to steal your secrets, but I've actually come to offer you his.
Alfred: This is the truth...is it?

...

Hotel Manager: At first I thought they might work for the government.
Robert: No?
Hotel Manager: Worse. They work for Thomas Edison.

...

Tesla: Exact science, Mr Angier, is not an exact science.

...

Olivia: You married her. You had a child with her.
Alfred: Yes. Part of me did. But the other part... the other part didn't. The part that found you, the part that's sitting here right now.
Olivia: You could be in some other cafe saying the same thing about me.

...

Tesla: I apologize for leaving without saying goodbye, but I seem to have outstayed my welcome in Colorado. The truly extraordinary is not permitted in science and industry. Perhaps you'll find more luck in your field, where people are happy to be mystified.

...

Alfred: I love you.
Sarah: You mean it today.
Alfred: Of course.
Sarah: It just makes it so much harder when you don't.

...

Alfred: Where's my ingenieur?
[Robert looks down to the ground]
Alfred: Is he alive?!
Robert: How fast can you dig?

...

Olivia: He says that it's even between you.
Robert: Even? My wife for a few of his fingers?

...

Tesla: You're familiar with the phrase "man's reach exceeds his grasp"? It's a lie: man's grasp exceeds his nerve. But society tolerates only one change at a time.

...

Robert: He's a dreadful magician.
Cutter: No, he's a wonderful magician. He's a dreadful showman.

...

Tesla: Things don't always go as planned, Mr. Angier. That's the beauty of science.

...

Cutter: Take a minute to consider your achievement. I once told you about a sailor who drowned.
Robert: Yes, he said it was like going home.
Cutter: I lied. He said it was agony.

...

Alfred: Simple maybe, but not easy.

...

Officer [at hanging]: Do you have anything to say?
Alfred: Abracadabra.

...

Robert: Were you the one who went into the box or the one that came out?
Alfred: We took turns.

...

Alfred: You went half way around the world...you spent a fortune...you did terrible things... really terrible things Robert, and all for nothing.
Robert: For nothing?
Alfred: Yeah
Robert: You never understood, why we did this. The audience knows the truth: the world is simple. It's miserable, solid all the way through. But if you could fool them, even for a second, then you can make them wonder, and then you...then you got to see something really special... you really don't know? It was...it was the look on their faces...
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: philosophy in film

Postby iambiguous » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:28 pm

With respect to magic, The Illusionist is no The Prestige. It's basically a Hollywood Love Story with magic as a prop in the background.

But that didn't stop me from thoroughly enjoying it. I just wasn't as stimulated intellectually by the unfolding...drama. On the other hand, it is always a pleasure to see royality of this sort [a true scumbag] pissed on. Well, assuming his version of the events is not actually closer to "the truth".

And the plot [in part] is based [loosely] on actual events. The "Mayerling Incident" for example.

This is interesting:

From IMDb:

"When Prince Leopold is approached by Inspector Uhl, while hunting, to inform him of Eisenheim and Sophie's meetings, the Prince asks what they were seen doing together. The line about if they were seen "fornicating" was originally filmed as him saying "fucking" instead. They dubbed in the word "fornicating" to avoid an R-Rating in compliance with the MPAA's policy that the f-word not be used in reference to intercourse in a PG-13 film."

Hollywood!!

THE ILLUSIONIST [2006]
Written and directed by Neil Burger

Eisenheim: From the moment we enter this live we are in the flow of it. We measure it and we mock it, but we cannot defy it. We cannot even speed it up or slow it down. Or can we? Have we not each experienced the sensation that a beautiful moment seemed to pass to quickly, and wished that we could make it linger? Or felt time slow on a dull day, and wished that we could speed things up a bit?

...

Josef: My God, when he volunteered her I heard the crashing sound of money falling on me in piles.

...

Prince Leopold: He tries to trick you, I try to enlighten you. Which is the more noble pursuit?

...

Eisenheim: I thought we might end this evening with a discussion of the soul. All of the greatest religions speak of the soul's endurance before the end of life. So what then does it mean to die?

...

Eisenheim [to the crowd]: Everything you have seen here has been an illusion. A trick. I can't bring loved ones back from the grave. I can't receive messages from the other side. I apologize if I have given you any false hopes

...

Eisenheim: He relies on you for that sort of thing.
Inspector Uhl: I'm a simple public servant, Herr Eisenheim.
Eisenheim: That's not what I hear. I hear you'll be chief of police very soon. Maybe mayor of Vienna? Party secretary?
Inspector Uhl: All subject to his whim.

...

Inspector Uhl: The simple truth of the matter is I'm the son of a butcher. He's the heir to the empire. How close could we be to such as him?...Don't fool yourself that you can play in their game. I've served on the edge of it for many, many years. And I can tell you there is no trick they haven't seen. It's not worth it

...

Inspector Uhl: [pacing] Eisenheim, I don't want to arrest you. I'm a cynical man, God knows, but if your manifestations are somehow real then even I'm willing to admit, you're a very special person. And if it's a trick, then it's equally impressive. Either way, you have a gift. So don't make me put you in jail!

...

Prince Leopold: It's all a trick. An illusion.
Inspector Uhl: Perhaps there's truth in this illusion.

...

Prince Leopold [to Inspector Uhl]: Everyone is completely incompetent. My father runs the empire into the ground and no one notices, no one knows anything about it. I propose to clean up the mess, and you betray me!...The country will be run by mongrels! There's a thousand different voices screaming to be heard, and nothing will be done. Nothing! I've done everything I can!!...You're all fools. I can't stand it. I won't stand it.



It always comes down to a narrative in the end. And its proximity to power. And, of course, to the magic of Hollywood scripting.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: philosophy in film

Postby iambiguous » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:10 pm

When someone is desparate one can usually count on someone else being around to take full advantage of it. Well, in some cultures.

Maria full of pellets. Pellets full of dope. Some do it because they need to, some because they want to. You either sympathize or you don't. And in some respects Maria is not really a sympathetic character at all.

And then there is the question of immigration and jobs.

From IMDb:

"Catalina Sandino Moreno prepared for her role by working in a Colombian flower plantation for two weeks cutting roses. She did not meet with real drug mules because she wanted to appear to be as clueless to the process and the consequences as Maria was."


MARIA FULL OF GRACE
Written and directed by Joshua Marston

Javier: And how’s your system?
Maria: My system?

...

Javier: We're going to give you several rolls of film. We'll send you to New York...Actually to New Jersey - a small town next to New York. Once you go through Customs you'll be met by our people. They will take you to a safe place. We'll develop the rolls. And in five, six days you'll be back here with all your money taking care of your problems.

...

Lucy [handing Maria a plate of grapes]: Practice with these.

...

Lucy: Make sure they are well wrapped. If just one opens up you'll die.

...

María: How many times have you done this?
Lucy: Two.
María: How did it go?
Lucy: Here I am.

...

Carlos: Make yourselves comfortable. You'll be here until you shit everything out.

...

Maria: Lucy needs a doctor.
Carlos: Like I care.

...

Carlos [to Maria]: Don’t use the toilet. I don’t want anything accidentally going down the drain. And don’t forget the toothpaste. I don’t want to be smelling your shit.

...

Carla: The best moment of my life here was when I got my first paycheck. Oh my god. I will never forget going into that office and sending money home for the first time. You have no idea. Your heart feels so big, so enormous like you can’t keep it in your chest. After a whole life of not being able to do anything suddenly you’re able to help, and then you know they’re counting on you back home, looking up to you and that keeps you going.
[Carla can’t hold back tears.]
But the real reason I stay is for my son. He’ll have so many more opportunities here. I hate to say it but I can’t imagine bringing up my baby in Colombia now...not with the situation being what it is. It pains me to say it but it’s true...
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: philosophy in film

Postby iambiguous » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:22 am

She's driven by what she does in a way very, very few of us are ever lucky enough to stumble upon regarding our own jobs.

Think crony capitalism with a Japanese twist.

Ryoko and Gondo: They are never not working.


A TAXING WOMAN [Marusa no onna] 1987
Written and directed by Jûzô Itami


In Japan, where tax rates can be as high as 80%, many people consider tax evasion as a citizen's right. Unfortunately, that's not the way the government sees it.

People from all walks of life use many ingenious techniques, including multiple signature seals that can be used to open bank accounts under false names.

Their ingenuity is matched only by the steadfast resolve of the incorruptible Japanese Revenue Service.

...

Gondo: I made too much money again...Now the problem is hiding it.

...

Crime boss [to soldier]: So, you are off to prison. You're a proper gangster. Violence is obsolete. Today we go to jail for tax evasion. Today we are like other businessmen, donating to politicians and minimizing our taxes.

...

Gondo: Can you do me a favor?
Crime boss: What?
Gondo: Pretend you loaned me 500 grand.
Crime boss: Made too much again, huh?

...

Gondo [putting more loot in his safe]: Taxmen? Screw 'em. Catch me if you can.


Well, he is about to meet his match. Gondo, meet Ryôko Itakura: A really taxing woman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjy0t-gbYc8

Citizen: Do you mean we will have to pay more taxes?!
Ryoko: Exactly.
Citizen [enraged]: You act so polite but you're really just a bloodsucker. Why do you pick on poor people like us? You cow! Go out and catch the real criminals!!

...

Accountant: You were just acting?!
Tax cheat: No, the tears were real. I'd cry all day to save a million.

...

Ryoko: An adult hotel...

...

Gondo: Who are you?
Man: My name ain't important. What's important is that I'm a "cleaner" and what I clean is money. Men like you have lots of secret money. And it has to stay secret. If you use it openly the tax men'll catch you....I can clean half a million for you right now. [he pulls a lottery ticket out of his pocker] This is a winnng lottery ticket. [He shows him a newspaper] It's worth $500,000.
[Gondo goes back and forth between the ticket and the paper....then it dawns on him...he bursts out laughing]
Gondo: So, you sell me this ticket for $550,000. That's a new one!!

...

Gondo [toying with Ryoko "off duty" in a bar]: Do me a favor. I've got an idea to give my son Taro a fortune tax free. Just nod your head if you think it'll work.
Ryoko [aggitated]: I can't do that!
Gondo: Listen...I vouch for a loan. He buys a company with big losses. We make it break even, then merge it with my company. We double the capital of the merged company. Increase leverage to 90% and we...
[Ryoko, exasperated stands up and leaves]
Gondo: Don't go!

...

Ninagawa: Sure I loaned Gondo 500 grand.
Ryoko: May I see the papers on it?
Ninagawa: What friggin' papers? I'm Ninagawa of the Kanto Ninagawa Family. If I say I loaned it, I loaned it.
Ryoko: But you would prepare some documents specifying the interest and terms.
Ninagawa: You ain't listening. If you loan a friend ten bucks for a cab do you ask him for a receipt and charge him interest?
Ryoyo: But for a large sum like $500 thousand....
Ninagawga: Stupid bitch! Half a million is peanuts to us! For that kind of money we trust each other.

...

Tax Inspector [to Ryoko]: Watch where his eyes move while I talk to him.

...

Tax Inspector: I make $2,285 a month. Tell me something, Mr Gondo.
Gondo: What?
Tax Inspector: How can I make the kind of money you make. I really want to know.
Gondo: Why?
Tax Inspector: You see, during this raid, we'll find lots of your secrets. Next, we're going to figure out how you did it and take that to the prosecutor. He'll issue an indictment--BOOM! It sounds great when he stamps it. BOOM! BOOM! And you're off to court, see? But to figure out how you did it we're going to be investigating you for maybe a year. You and I are just beginning a long, long relationship. So, I thought it might be good to learn to see how you see things.

...

Gondo: To save money, you don't spend it. It's as simple as that. You give maybe $100 at a funeral, $200 at a wedding. That's not good. A million is nothing if you spend it. But even $100 is yours if you save it. Say you're trying to fill a glass with dripping water. When it's half-full, you're thirsty, so you drink. But that's stupid. Wait until it's full. But still don't drink. Wait 'til it brims over and lick it. That way you save the water and drink.


Then Ryoko accidently stumbles into Gondo's hidden vault. It's filled with loot.

Tax Inspector: That's a lot of water!

...

Gondo: Say, why don't you quit this tax racket and come live with me.
[Ryoko stares intently at him and than slowly shakes her head. Gondo then pulls out her handerchief -- the one he picke3d up after she stormed out of the bar -- and a knife. He cuts the tip of his finger and then in blood writes a series of numbers on the handerchief]
Gondo: The $2.1 million is in a box at the Schilla Bank. That's the box number.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: philosophy in film

Postby iambiguous » Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:00 am

Helena Kallianiotes damn near stole the film at one point but this one is still all Nicholson. He is fucking great from beginning to end.

Believe it or not, Nicholson wanted Janis Joplin to play Palm.

The thing about Bobby is he has the option of going back but is as genuinely repulsed by the past as he is by the present and the future. It's all summed up in his face---looking at himself in the mirror of that filling station restroom.

Five easy pieces: Rayette? Betty? Twinky? Probably. But who are the other two? Catherine? Stoney?
Or did they play five easy pieces of music in the film? Or maybe the classic country "tunes"? Or a combination thereof?

From IMDb:

"The film's title is open to interpretation. Robert plays a Chopin "piece" on the piano because he says he learned it when he was young, and it's "easy" to play. He only plays one other piece in the movie, but there are a total of five classical pieces played in the film:

Frédéric Chopin - Fantaisie in F minor, Op. 49; Johann Sebastian Bach - Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue; Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart - Piano Concerto No. 9 "Jeunehomme"; Frédéric Chopin - Prelude, Op. 28, No. 4; Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart - Fantasia No. 3 in D minor, K. 397

Another interpretation could take Robert's misogyny into account and refer to the three women he fools around with as "pieces". These women, in addition to the two piano pieces he plays, brings the total to five."

FIVE EASY PIECES [1970]
Directed by Bob Rafelson

Elton: Well, what if she was, Bob? I can't see nothin' so bad in that. Well, what if I were to let you in on a little secret that she is? That's right. She told me. She's all torn up about it, too, which I hate to see. Well hell, isn't it somethin' you just have to face up to? I tell ya, somewhere along the line, you even get to likin' the whole idea. When Stoney first give me the news, I coulda shit!
[Bobby spits out his food and throws down his food in disgust]
Elton: Well isn't that nice?
Bobby: It's ridiculous. I'm sittin' here listening to some cracker asshole who lives in a trailer park compare his life to mine. Keep on tellin' me about the good life, Elton, because it makes me puke.

...

Bobby: Hey, what the hell is going on here?
Palm [flipping him the bird]: Rotate Mac.

...

Bobby: Where are you goin'?
Palm: Alaska.
Bobby: Alaska. What are you, on vacation?
Terry: She wants to live there 'cause it's cleaner.
Bobby: Cleaner. Cleaner than what?
Palm: You don't have to tell everybody about it. Pretty soon they'll all go there and it won't be so clean.
Bobby: What makes you think it's cleaner?
Palm: I saw a picture of it. Alaska's very clean. It appeared to look very white to me. Don't you think?
Bobby: Yep. That was before the Big Thaw.
Palm: Before the what?

...

Palm: Hey, follow that truck. They know the best places to stop.
Rayette: That's an old maid's tale.
Palm: Bullshit! Truck drivers are the only ones that know the best places to stop on the road.
Rayette: Salesmen and cops are the ones. If you'd ever waitressed, honey, you'd know that.
Palm: Don't call me honey, mac.
Rayette: Don't call me mac, honey.

...

[Bobby wants plain toast, which isn't on the menu]
Bobby: Okay, I'll make it as easy for you as I can. I'd like an omelet, plain, and a chicken salad sandwich on wheat toast, no mayonnaise, no butter, no lettuce. And a cup of coffee.
Waitress: A #2, chicken salad sand. Hold the butter, the lettuce, the mayonnaise, and a cup of coffee. Anything else?
Bobby: Yeah, now all you have to do is hold the chicken, bring me the toast, give me a check for the chicken salad sandwich, and you haven't broken any rules.
Waitress: You want me to hold the chicken, huh?
Bobby: I want you to hold it between your knees.

...

Palm: Fantastic that you could figure that all out and lie that down on her so you could come up with a way to get your toast. Fantastic!
Bobby: Yeah, well, I didn't get it, did I?
Palm: No, but it was very clever. I would have just punched her out.

...

Palm: You know, I read where they, uh, invented this car that runs on, ummm...that runs on, ummm...when you boil water?
Terry: Steam.
Palm: Right, steam. A car that you could ride around in and not cause a stink. But do you know they will not even let us have it? Can you believe it? Why? Man! He likes to create a stink! I mean, I've seen filth that you wouldn't believe. Ugh! What a stink! I don't even want to talk about it.

...

Palm: ...those signs everywhere, they should be erased! All those signs selling you crap and more crap and more crap. I don't know. I don't even want to talk about it.
Bobby: Well...
Palm: It's just filth. People are filthy. I think that's the biggest thing that's wrong with people. They'd be less violent if they were clean because then they wouldn't have anybody to pick on. Dirt. Not dirt. See, dirt isn't bad. It's filth. Filth is bad. That's what starts maggots and riots.

...

Palm: People are filthy. Animals are not like that. They're always cleaning themselves. Did you ever see, umm...pigeons? Well, he's always picking on himself and his friends. They're always picking bugs out of their hair all the time. Monkeys too. Except they do something out in the open that I don't go for.

...

Palm: I had to leave this place because I got depressed seeing all the crap. And the thing is, they're making more crap, you know? They got so many stores and stuff and junk full of crap I can't believe it.
Bobby: Who?
Palm: Who? Man, that's who. Pretty soon there won't be any room for man. They're selling more crap that people go and buy than you can imagine. Crap. I believe everybody should have a big hole where they throw the stuff in and burn it.

...

Catherine: One thing I find very difficult to imagine is how one could have this incredible background in music and then just walk away from it without giving it a second thought.
Bobby: I gave it a second thought.
Catherine: How could you no longer play at all? I think that's very strange.
Bobby: I played a little bit here and there. As a matter of fact, once I was a rehearsal pianist.
Catherine: For ballet, an opera?
Bobby: A Las Vegas musical revue.
Catherine: You don't call that music.
Bobby: Oh, yes, I do.

...

Rayette: I had a baby kitty cat once. It was a fluffy thing. Bobby gave it to me. It had two little white front paws and I was crazy after her. We left her at some friends' house and she got squashed flatter than a tortilla outside their mobile home.
Samia [the insufferable pedant]: There. Do you see what I mean? The choice of words juxtaposed with the image of a fluffy kitten. The enchantment of words "squashed," "flat," et cetera. - Et cetera.
Rayette: Well, she was.
Samia: Perhaps, but it was just what I was trying to point out.
Bobby: Don't point at her.
Samia: I beg your pardon.
Bobby: I said, don't point at her, you creep.
Samia: But I was just trying to point out...
Bobby: [interrupting] Don't sit there pointing at her.
Samia: I beg your pardon.
Bobby: I said don't point at her, you creep.
Samia: But I was just telling about...
Bobby: Where do you get the ass to tell anybody anything about class, or who the hell's got it, or what she typifies? You shouldn't even be in the same room with her, you pompous celibate... You're totally full of shit! You're all full of shit.

...

Bobby: What else do you do?
Catherine: Well, there's fishing, boating, and concerts on the mainland.
[Laughs]
Catherine: I feel funny telling you this. This is really your home. You probably know better than I what there is to do.
Bobby: Nothing.
Catherine: Nothing?
Bobby: Nothing.
Catherine: Well, it must be very boring for you here.
Bobby: That's right.
Catherine: I find that very hard to comprehend. I don't think I've ever been bored. Excuse me.

...

Catherine: That was beautiful. I'm surprised.
Bobby: Thank you.
Catherine: I was really very moved by...[Bobby snickers] What's wrong?
Bobby: Nothing. It's just I picked the easiest piece that I could think of. I first played it when I was eight, and I played it better then.
Catherine: Can't you understand it was the feeling I was affected by?
Bobby: I didn't have any.
Catherine: You had no inner feeling?
Bobby: None.

...

Bobby: What does it have to be with you grim and serious?
Catherine: Look, you played. I honestly responded...and you made me feel embarrassed for having responded to you. It wasn't necessary.
Bobby: Yeah, it was. I faked a little Chopin. You faked a big response.
Catherine: I don't think that's accurate.
Bobby: Up till now, all I've been getting from you is meaningful looks at the dinner table and a lot of vague suggestions about the day after tomorrow.
Catherine: I am not conscious of having given you any particular looks. And as for the day after tomorrow, this is the day after tomorrow...and I am, unfortunately, seeing you. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'd like to take a bath.

...

Bobby: What are you doing, screwing around with all this crap?
Catherine: I do not find your language very charming.
Bobby: It isn't. It's direct.

...

Catherine: It's useless.
Bobby: Look, give me a chance.
Catherine: I'm trying to be delicate with you, but you just won't understand. I couldn't go with you. Not just because of Carl and my music, but because of you. [pause] You're a strange person, Robert. I mean, what would it come to? If a person has no love for himself, no respect for himself, no love of his friends, family, work, something. How can he ask for love in return? I mean, why should he ask for it?
Bobby: Living here in this rest home/asylum - that's what you want?
Catherine: Yes.
Bobby: That will make you happy?
Catherine: I hope it will. Yes.

...

Bobby: [finally talking with his paralyzed father] I don't know if you'd be particularly interested in hearing anything about me. My life, I mean. Most of it doesn't add up to much that I could relate as a way of life that you'd approve of. I'd like to be able to tell you why, but I don't really. I mean, I move around a lot because things tend to get bad when I stay. And I'm looking for auspicious beginnings, I guess I'm trying to, you know, imagine your half of this conversation. My feeling is, that if you could talk, we probably wouldn't be talking. That's pretty much how it got to be before I left. Are you all right? I don't know what to say. Tita suggested that we try to...I don't know. I think that she seems to feel we've got some understanding to reach. She totally denies the fact that we were never that comfortable with each other to begin with. The best that I can do, is apologize. We both know that I was never really that good at it, anyway. [sobbing] I'm sorry it didn't work out.

...

Truck driver: Don't you got a jacket or anything with you?
Bobby: It got burned up. Everything in the car got the shit burned out of it. Everything. All I've got is what I've got on.
Truck driver: I got one behind the seat. If you want it, put it on.
Bobby: No, it's okay.
Truck driver: Suit yourself. I'll tell you one thing. Where we're going, it's gonna get colder than hell.


Then the shot of Rayette getting out of the car wondering where in the hell he is.
Last edited by iambiguous on Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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Re: philosophy in film

Postby iambiguous » Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:57 pm

You know that Trevor is really strange. But is he also really crazy?

All the different ways in which the past the present and the future can get jumbled up in our heads. Especially after a traumatic event. Especially if it's one we caused.

Look for references to Dostoevsky.

Lots of arrows in the film. You have to choose which way to go.

From IMDb

"The producers of the film claim that Christian Bale dropped from about 173 pounds in weight down to about 110 pounds in weight to make this film. They also claim that Bale actually wanted to drop down to 100 pounds, but that they would not let him go below 120 out of fear that his health could be in too much danger if he did. His diet consisted of one can of tuna and an apple per day. His 63-pound weight loss is said to be a record for any actor for a movie role. He regained the weight in time for his role in Batman Begins."

And:

"Bale found that his weakened condition caused problems in the more demanding action scenes. He found running a particular problem as he simply had no leg muscles left."

And:

"Brad Anderson and his screenwriter Scott Kosar were turned down by virtually every American studio and producer they approached on the grounds that the screenplay was "too weird". Scott Kosar wrote this screenplay on spec straight out of film school. He then touted it round all the usual Hollywood studios for several years. The writing was well thought of, but the overwhelming dark mood was not, and financing could not be secured in America."

Just think of all the great films out there not being made in this truly vapid film industry.


THE MACHINIST
Directed by Brad Anderson

Marie: Trevor, is someone chasing you?
Trevor: Not yet. But they will when they find out who I am

...

Stevie: Are you okay?
Trevor: Don't I look okay?
Stevie: If you were any thinner, you wouldn't exist.

...

Marie: Are you okay?
Trevor: Don't I look okay?
Marie: If you were any thinner, you wouldn't exist.

...

Trevor: Stevie, I haven't slept in a year.
Stevie: Jesus Christ!
Trevor: I tried him too.

...

Trevor: A little guilt goes a long way.

...

Ivan: You shooting coke or something? You look like a dope fiend to me. No offence.
Trevor: I don't use drugs. Normally, I don't even drink.
Ivan: How about abnormally?

...

Trevor: I wish there was some way I could repay you.
Miller: Well, for starters you could give me your left arm.

...

Trevor: You know I'm not at National any more?
Miller: Yeah, I heard about it. Sounds like you almost lost an arm yourself.
Trevor: Don't you find that a bit ironic, Miller?
Miller: Ironic? I'm sorry, kid, I never got out of the sixth grade.

...

Ivan: Oh, no. You look like you seen a ghost.
Trevor: Funny you should say that. The guys at work don't think you exist.
Ivan: Maybe that's why I can't get a raise.

...

DMV Clerk: I'm sorry, sir, but we don't provide motorist information to the general public.
Trevor: I'm not just a member of the general public. This guy's a friend of mine.
DMV Clerk: But you don't know your friend's address?
Trevor: We just met. I don't know him that well.
DMV Clerk: Sir, this is the DMV, not a dating service.

...

Trevor: Don't forget your Post-its.

...

Ivan: You ought to do something about that faulty memory of yours, Pal. It might make your life a little easier.

...

Trevor: I know who you are...I know who you are...I know who you are...I know who you are.

...

Trevor: I'd like to report a hit and run.


This is where the film should have ended in my opinion.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: philosophy in film

Postby iambiguous » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:05 am

Characters like this pop up from time to time. They are manics. They are depressives. They need treatment. But to treat the part they don't want to be can mean taking away the part they crave. But not to treat the part they crave can mean trouble for all the rest of us.

From IMBd:

"To prepare for the film, Richard Gere, Mike Figgis and Eric Roth did a tremendous amount of research and studying on manic depression (now called bipolar disorder). Gere met with several people who have the disorder to gain insight and knowledge on what to accurately portray."

Almost no one saw this movie. And most that did didn't like it. Well, fuck 'em. It's a great film.


MR. JONES
Directed by Mike Figgis

Mr. Jones: Give me this. This first day, I work for free. I give it to you, its a gift. Second day, you pay me for two days. Third day, I have your job.

...

Libbie: I think he was misdiagnosed.
Patrick: How so?
Libbie: He was psychotic but not schizophrenic. He was expansive...intrusive, inappropriate, euphoric. I think hes a manic.
Patrick: Okay, fine. Fine. He's manic. You know, the guy refused medication. It would have meant a hearing. We would have lost.
Libbie: Give him a few more hours and he'll think he can fly again.


Sure enough...

Patrick [looking down at Jones strapped to a gurney]: It's like trying to stop a space shuttle with a rubber band.

...

Libbie: Mr. Jones, you have a disease. Manic-depressive disorder. It's like having diabetes.
Jones: No shit! And here I thought I was just having a bad day!
Patrick: It's a highly treatable chemical imbalance. We've had a great deal of success...
Jones: Look, fuck-face! I have been in and out of hospitals for 20 years! There are two words that I really do not appreciate! One is ´great,´ the other ´success.´

...

Jones: It is not a disease! Okay? Not a disease! I do not have a disease. This is who I am! I like who I am! You got it?

...

Libbie: Tell me something. Do you crash?
Jones: What?
Libbie: Do you get suicidal? Do you?
Jones: How can I get suicidal? I have my little friends here. Lithium. Four a day, every day keeps those highs and lows away.
Libbie: Yeah, if you take them.

...

Libbie: What are you doing?
Jones: I don't live very far from here. I thought maybe you could give me a ride.
Libbie: I'm a psychiatrist. If you have a psychiatric problem, call me. If you have a transportation problem, you call a cab.

...

Therapist: Mr. Jones, what are you being?
Jones [sitting still]: An erection.

...

Libbie: Why are you lying?
Jones: I'm not lying. I'm not lying!
Libbie: Yeah. You were King Kong in a jail in Houston.
Jones: Houston. Houston. Yeah.
Libbie [exasperated]: You want to come back tomorrow?
Jones [becoming serious]: Okay. I was in college.
Libbie: What happened?
Jones: I swallowed some aspirin.
Libbie: How many?
Jones: Seventy-three heavy-duty, full-strength Tylenol. I was young. It was on a full stomach and my roommates found me. [he pauses] There's something I want you to know. Ever since that night I have never...ever...had a headache. True story.
Libbie: I believe you.

...

Howard: How you doing, man?
Jones: Howard? Howard! What are you doing here?
Howard: I've come to see you, man.
Jones: Did they get you, too?

...

Mr. Wilson: Excuse me, sir. I'm sorry to interrupt, but could I ask a question?
Howard: Sure.
Mr. Wilson: Did you drive here?
Howard: I did.
Mr Wilson: What kind of car do you have?
Howard: A pickup.
Mr. Wilson: Do you know you're injecting poisons into our food and our bodies?
Jones: Okay, Mr. Wilson. Thank you.
Howard: I thought that guy was your doctor.
Jones: It's hard to tell sometimes. Like with these three over there. Now, Howard, you tell me. Which one there is the patient?
Howard: The lady. The sad-looking lady.
Jones: Howard, that is my doctor.

...

Jones: Elizabeth [Libbie]: I am a junkie. I really need my highs. I really miss my highs very badly. Libbie: And the lows?
Jones: Yeah, well, I guess I'll take my chances.

...

Jones [to Libbie]: When I was 3 years old I played Mozart. By the time I was 12 I had read everything. When I was 18 I was the centre of the universe. And then I woke up one day, and I was in a mental institution. I'm not normal. I've never been normal. I can't live down here anymore. I can't do it. I can't. I can't do it by myself.

...

Libbie: What was her last name?
Jones: I don't remember.
Libbie: Was it Ryan? Ellen Ryan?
Jones: You are one very, very sick motherfucker.

...

Libbie: Ellen said she thinks about you all the time. She never passes a music store or a concert hall without looking for your work.
Jones: Shut up!
Libbie: Why'd you say she was dead?
Jones: I'm warning you!
Libbie: Why'd you say it? Tell me!
Jones: Because she is dead, thats why! And so are you!

...

Jones: I was too much fucking trouble for everybody! My whole fucking life, everyone I met, too much trouble!...Now I got this really good little trick. You see, you're not human anymore! None of you! You're not human! You're like goldfish! All of you! One dies, I get another one!
Libbie: You want human? I'll give you human! You're going to blow the back of your head off! Or jump, or hang or do anything to turn off the pain! Aren't you? Admit it! You're gonna do it and you know it!
Jones: Take your hands off me!
Libbie: And when you finally do, when all your charm and all the wonderful things that you could be are gone forever, I'll just be left here with an intensely human, unprofessional rip in my heart.

...

Distraught patient weeping [to Libbie]: You're a doctor. You can fix my life, right?
[LIbbie just stares down at the floor, the look on her face saying it all]


A short but very powerful scene.

Libbie: I want to take myself off the Jones case and I was hoping that you could take over.
Patrick: Why?
Libbie: What?
Patrick: Why?
Libbie: Because I really think its for the best.
Patrick: The best? It's not the best for me.
Libbie: I slept with him.

...

Patrick: All right, this is the deal. You cannot see him again.
Libbie: I have to see him once to explain.
Patrick: Libbie, listen to me. You cannot see him again. If you do, I will turn you in. This is not about protecting myself, the hospital. It's about him, the patient. It has nothing to do with how I feel about you. I would do that. Do you understand? I would turn you in. Do you understand me? Do you understand me?
Libbie: Yes.
Patrick: There is a line here, all right? You cannot cross it.
Libbie: You don't understand. It's too late. It's too late.

...

Patrick: Listen, I just wanted to let you know that he's out.
Libbie: Who told you?
Patrick: I have a friend whos a resident at Cal. They assessed him as being stable and found him co-operative with the drug program. So he got himself released.
Libbie: Why are you telling me?
Patrick: He may try to contact you.
Libbie: No. No, he won't. Not me, not anymore. I'm dead.

...

[Libbie watches Amanada on tape after she committed suicide]

Amanda: I'm not afraid of death. People build it up to be something that you should be frightened of, but I'm so ready. It would be a big relief, actually. Like a warmth. Dr. Bowen, do you think I'm pretty?

[watching Mr. Jones on tape]

Jones: It was like that day we went to the pier and I got up on the railing. You thought it was stupid, right? I can see now you still do. Yeah, really dumb. Yeah, I'm going to fall and break my neck. What's the point, right? You see, you don't understand. Being up there is the point.

Hi, Elizabeth. What would you risk everything for? Is there anything that means that much to you? You're going to listen to this later? I hope you do. Save this one. This was a good one.

...

Catherine: What's this?
Libbie: It's my resignation.
Catherine: What'd you do? Kill somebody?
Libbie: I've made a mistake. I've done something very bad.
Catherine: ...Jones.

...

Woman: Jeffery, he's got a bike just like yours!

...

Libbie [answering the phone: Yes?
Mandy: Dr. Bowen, this is Mandy at the hospital.
Libbie: I don't work there, Mandy.
Mandy: I'm sorry, there's a man who...
Libbie: I don't work there anymore!
Mandy: There's a man who's a friend of Mr. Jones. He thinks Jones is gonna try and fly again.

...

Jones: I wanted to fly so much....But I can't.
Libbie: I know. I'm sorry.
Jones: So, now what?
Libbie: Cup of coffee?
Jones: Okay.
Libbie: Decaf.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: philosophy in film

Postby iambiguous » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:08 pm

What happens to these children is really only what happens to all children. It is what happened to you and I. It is just taken to extreme. As kids we all become a mini-me---the "I" that adults demand of us. The words and the symbols and the meanings and the behaviors we learn are largely beyond our control. We are shaped to fit into the world as it happens to be perceived by those who raise us at any particular time and in any particular place.

But in the modern world, even in a context this regimented and controlled, other "realities" begin to seep in. Then we learn to grapple with choosing the "best" reality or the "right" reality. Or the "real" reality.

With no references to God here, what's the the explanation, insanity? Or the idea of perfection in the mind of someone intent on creating the optimal "family"?


From IMBd:

"The inspiration for the film came about because of a discussion Giorgos Lanthimos was having with some friends who were about to get married. When Lanthimos expressed doubts about the institution and family itself, he was struck by the idea about what would happen to a man who went to the ultimate extreme of protecting his family."

And:

"The title comes from one of the lies that the parents tell the children, that they will only be ready to leave the household when their dogteeth fall out."


DOGTOOTH [Kynodontas] 2009
Written and directed by Giorgos Lanthimos


Mother: The new words of the day are: "Sea", "Highway", "Road trip" and "Shotgun".

...

Older daughter [looking up a jet]: If it falls, I get it.
Mother [slapping her hard across the face]: Whoever deserves it gets it.

...

Dog trainer: Dogs are like clay. And our job here is to mold them. A dog may be energetic, a fighter, cowardly or gentle. All this requires work, patience and care from us. Every dog is waiting for us to show it how to behave. Do you inderstand? The issue here is to decide together how we want your dog to behave. Do we want an animal or do we want a friend? Do we want a guard who will respect us as his masters and do unhesitantly whatever we ask of him? You see?
Father: Sure.


After all, that is basically the philosophy he uses on his wife and children.

Father: Soon your mother will give birth to two children and a dog.

...

Father: The most creative years of a man?
Children [in unison]: Between 30 and 40!
Father: And of a woman?
Children: Between 20 and 30!
Father: A child is ready to leave the house?
Older daughter: When the right dogtooth comes out.
Father: Or the left. No matter. Only when your body is ready to face the danger. To leave the house and be safe outside, we must take the car. When are we ready to drive?
Son: When the right dogtooth grows in again. Or the left. It doesn't matter.

...

Older Daughter: Mom, what is a "pussy"?
Mother: Where did you learn that word?
Older Daughter: On a case on top of the VCR.
Mother: A "pussy" is a large lamp. Example: The "pussy" switched off and the room plunged into darkness.


The father then plays them a recording of Frank Sinatra singing "Fly Me To the Moon" and translates it into Greek to accord with every lie he has been telling them. He tells them Ole Blue Eyes is their Grandfather.

Older daughter [to Christina]: Give me the present or I will tell my parents you brought me a sparkling headband. And that you told me to lick your keyboard down there. Do you know what Dad will do if he finds out I lick your keyboard?

...

Older Daughter [now the sister Dad has "assigned" to replace Christina]: Do that again, bitch, and I'll rip your guts out. I swear on my daughter's life you and your clan won't last long in this neighborhood.

...

Son: Mama, I found two little zombies!
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: philosophy in film

Postby iambiguous » Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:45 am

Can you even begin to imagine a story like this in today's world?! The money to be made!! The clamoring for the first interviews!! Going virile on the web!!

Just as strange as Hauser's life was his death. He was twice attacked by an unknown assailant, once bludgeoned and then stabbed in the heart. At one point the film seemed to suggest it was the man who had imprisoned him.

From IMDb:

"Herzog's film is based upon the true and mysterious story of Kaspar Hauser, a young man who suddenly appeared in Nuremberg in 1828, barely able to speak or walk, and bearing a strange note; he later explained that he had been held captive in a dungeon of some sort for his entire life that he could remember, and only recently was he released, for reasons unknown. His benefactor attempts to integrate him into society, with intriguing results."

Also, this interesting [extraordinary] biography of Bruno S., the actor who played Kaspar Hauser:

"The unwanted son of a prostitute, Bruno S. was beaten so severely by his mother at age 3 that he became temporarily deaf. This led to his placement in a mental institution; he spent the next 23 years in various institutions, often running afoul of the law. Despite this past, he a self-taught painter and musician; while these were his favorite occupations, he was also forced to take jobs in factories such as driving a fork lift. Director Werner Herzog saw him in the documentary Bruno der Schwarze - Es blies ein Jäger wohl in sein Horn (1970) and vowed to work with him, which led to his major roles in The Enigma of Kaspar Hauser (1974) and Stroszek (1977). He was very difficult to work with, though, sometimes needing several hours of screaming before he could do a scene."

THE ENIGMA OF KASPAR HAUSER [Jeder für sich und Gott gegen alle] 1974
Written and directed by Werner Herzog

Opening words scrolling up the screen:

One Sunday in 1828 a ragged boy was found abandoned in the town of N. He could hardly walk and spoke but one sentence. Later, he told of being locked in a dark cellar from birth. He had never seen another human being, a tree, a house before. To this day no one knows where he came from -- or who set him free.

...

Caption on screen:

Do you not then hear this horrible scream all around you that people usually call silence.

...

Captain: This is very odd.

...

Captain: The state of this man is one of absolute confusion.

...

Kaspar: Mother, I am so far away from everything.

...

Carnival sideshow barker: Kasper Hauser was found in the Town Square of this fine city just as you see him standing before you today. In his right hand a prayer-book, and in his left the Anonymous Letter. Abandoned to his own fate in this strange town the boy could neither speak nor walk. He had never seen a living being in his life before. His origin remains in darkness to this day. Is he a prince? Or possibly the legitimate son of Napoleon? He is and will remain the Riddle of the European Continent!

...

Professor Daumer: Kaspar, what's wrong? Are you feeling unwell?
Kaspar: It feels strong in my heart...The music feels strong in my heart.
Professor Daumer: You've been such a short time in the world, Kaspar...
Kaspar: Why is everything so hard for me? Why can't I play the piano like I can breathe?
Professor Daumer: In the two short years you have been here with me, you have learned so much! The people here want to help you make up for lost time.
Kaspar: People are like wolves to me.
Professor Daumer: No. You mustn't say that...

...

Minister # 1: Kasper, what we really want to know is whether a Higher Being didn't occupy your thoughts in the prison.
Kasper: I don't understand the question. In my prison I didn't think of anything and I cannot imagine a God creating everything out of nothing like you say.
Minister #1 to minister #2: If he doesn't understand God, then he'll simply have to have faith.
Minister #2 [to Kaspar]: You must have faith! The tenets of faith transcend mortal doubt.
Kasdpar: First I have to learn to read and write better to understand.


Nope, that wasn't the right answer. Of course. he is not too keen on science either.

Kaspar [to Katy]: Why are women allowed only to knit and cook?

An echo from Fermat's Room above:

Philosophy professor: Kaspar, let's pretend this is a village. In this village live people who tell only the truth. Here is another village. The people here only tell lies. You are standing at the crossroads between them. A man comes along, and you want to know which village he comes from. Now in order to solve this problem, to solve it logically, you have one question, and only one. What is the question? [Kaspar says nothing] Kaspar, if you can't think of the question then I shall tell you. If you came from the the other village would you answer "no" if I were to ask you whether you came from the liars' village? By means of a double negative the liar is forced to tell the truth. This construction forces him to reveal his identity, you see? That's what I call logic via argument to the truth!
Kaspar: Well, I know another question.
Katy: You do?
Philosophy professor: There is no other question by the laws of logic.
Kaspar: But I do know another question.
Philosophy professor: Let's hear it then!
Kaspar: I should ask the man whether he was a tree-frog. The man from the truth village would say, "No, I'm not a tree-frog" because he tells the truth. The man from the liars' village would say, "Yes, I'm a tree-frog", because he would lie.
Philosophy professor: No, that's not a proper question. That won't do. I can't accept it as a question. That's not logic; logic is deduction, not description. What you've done is describe something, not deduce it.
Katy: But I understood his question.
Philosophy professor: Understanding is secondary; the reasoning is the thing. In logic and Mathematics we do not understand things, we reason and deduce. I cannot accept the question.

...

Kaspar: It seems to me that my coming into this world was a very hard fall.

...

Professor Daumer: Kaspar, why did you leave the church?
Kaspar: The singing of the congregation sounds to me like awful howling. And then when the singing stops, the pastor starts to howl.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: philosophy in film

Postby iambiguous » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:32 pm

A "small film" that exams identity derived from different worlds. How do we fit into the new one when the signs and the signals are creating an increasingly frustrated feeling of estrangment. With characters like this though I wonder how I would be able to communicate to them the way in which I feel estranged myself. If for no other reason they are "just kids". They are simply too far removed from the world I know as dasein. Though the world we both share is awash in alienation.

None of the characters in the film are professional actors.

Clip from youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYqldDxKueE

IN BETWEEN DAYS
Written and Directed by So Yong Kim
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

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Re: philosophy in film

Postby iambiguous » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:33 pm

A true story.

Some folks say they wish to "die with dignity" because their "condition" does not afford them dignity in life. But what of all those who are afflicted with the same? How does one separate out what they think and feel from what others do? This is confronted right from the start: They are the same as others in some respects but different too. That is what we must learn to respect. But out in a world of "conflicting goods" things can get very, very complicated.

It's how things like this are. Both sides come up with good reasons but they have no way in which to demonstrate the reasons from the other side are bad. At least not necessarily. You can't construct an argument that make the objections of the other side go away. It's always that tug of war between the immovable object and the irresistable force. It can only be won with words. And even then only in places like this. Out in the world the deciding factor is always power.

And, perhaps, the extent to which those in power are willing to listen to reason. However futile it is in the end to "resolve" it.

THE SEA INSIDE [Mar adentro] 2004
Written and directed by Alejandro Amenábar

Padre Francisco: A freedom that ends life is no freedom at all..
Ramón: And a life that ends freedom isn't a life either..

...

Joaquín: There's only one thing worse than having your son die on you...him wanting to.

...

Ramón: When you can't escape, and you constantly rely on everyone else, you learn to cry by smiling, you know?

...

Julia: Why choose death?
Ramón: Well, I want to die because I feel that a life for me, in this state has no dignity. I understand that other quadriplegics may take offense to my saying there's no dignity in this, but I'm not trying to judge anyone. Who am I to judge those who choose life? So don't judge me or anyone who wants to help me die.
Julia: You think someone will help?
Ramón: Well, that depends on the powers that be. They'll have to overcome their fear. But hey, it's really no big deal. Death has always been with us and always will be. It catches up with all of us. Everyone. It's part of us. So why are they shocked because I choose to die, as if it were contagious?
Julia: If this goes to court, they'll ask why you haven't explored all alternatives. Why refuse a wheelchair?
Ramón: Accepting a wheelchair would be like accepting the scraps of the freedom I lost. Think about this: You're sitting there, three feet away. What's three feet? An insignificant distance for any human being. But for me, those three feet that keep me from reaching you, from touching you, are an impossible journey. Just an illusion. A fantasy. That's why I want to die.

...

Brother: ...I think that it's not right
Julia: But why not?
Brother: I want what's best for him. Everyone in this house wants that. Then why would he want to die? I cannot get that into my head. It's not rational, as he says. I cannot give it to him and I don't give my authorization to do it in this house.

...

Ramon: Don't talk like that about your grandfather.
Ravi [Ramon's nephew]: His mind is completely gone.
Ramon: Of course, he is old, what do you want?
Ravi: Well, that he stays out of the way. He is at home all day. As if we need him.
Ramon: What? [a long pause] Look, one day...I don't know when, maybe in a long time...One day you are going to regret so much, so much what you just said. You'll want the ground to swallow you.
Ravi: But why?
Ramon: One day, you'll see. One day...

...

Rosa: I heard what you said and then l saw your eyes and I thought, those eyes full of life! Why would someone with those eyes want to die. Look, we all have problems sometimes and we don't have to run away of them, you know?
Ramon: No, I don't run away of my problems...
Rosa: Yes, of course you do. That's why I wanted to come.
Ramon: What for?
Rosas: To give you reasons to live. To tell you that life...
Ramon: Life what?
Rosa: Is worth it.
Ramon: Let's see, did you come here to see me or to convince me?
Rosa: No, I came because I want to be your friend Ramon.
Ramon: If you want to be my friend, Rosa, you should start by respecting my wishes.
Rosa: How can you be so closed-minded?
Ramon: Don't judge me. Don't judge me Rosa. Not in my own house. Or do you want me to judge you? Do you want me to judge you? Why don't we talk about the real reason you came. Why don't we talk about the fact that you are clearly a frustrated woman...that you woke up this Saturday looking for ways of giving reason to your own life.
Rosa bolts from her chair and races out of the room.
Roman: Yes, run. You that can.

...

Julia: You don't like looking into the past, right?
Ramon: Of course not, I look into the future.
Julia: And what is the future for you?
Ramon: Death, same as for you. Don't you think about death? I'm not the only one who thinks about it.
Julia: Yes, yes. Of course I think about it. I just try to avoid it being the only thing I think about.

...

Ramon: But who's talking about quadriplegics? I'm talking about me, Ramon Sampedro.

...

Manuela: Not a minute passes by without a woman coming into this house. Are you building a harem?
Ramon: Manuela, you know I'm only married to one.
Manuela: Yes, to Death.

...

Ramon [to Julia in his imagination]: They told me you were here. And I came flying.


Nessun Dorma: The flying sequence in the film

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YDHaZq7f_4

...

Julia: I've been reading, Ramon I've been reading all that you have done. What you have written...is wonderful.
Ramon: So you are not only a lawyer, but also a writer.
Julia: Ok. Make fun of me. But I tell you that this can be published.
Ramon: Of course it can be published. Nowadays you can publish almost anything.
Julia: I don't see a better way to support your demand. It's your voice.
Ramon: Look, Julia, this was more clear at the beginning You came here with a purpose, to help me. Instead of that, you start questioning everything. Looking for reasons...You get inside and meddle with my emotions...


The more she wants him to love her on her terms the more unbearable it becomes to measure the gap between her world and his own.

But then Julia has her own "condition":

Julia: It's not about what happened, but about what could happen. Because one day it's the legs but on another day you can go blind. And you may or may not recover. I have been lucky so far but then comes the next stroke and the next, and the next and no one can tell you when or how they are going to be. No one can tell what is going to be left of you if anything at all...And what is it to be optimistic when there's not even medication for it. What's the point of standing up, working, getting your hopes up if at the end comes the next stroke and you fall again and you fall to shit again. Don't you see how ridiculous it is?....I just can't take it anymore. This is not life.

...

Padre Francisco [who is himself a quadriplegic]: You...you who look like kind people, give this man reasons to live. Prove to him that life is not only moving your arms and running around or kicking a ball. Damn it! Life is something else, really Life is so much more. Hear it from me.

...

Manuela [to Padre Francisco]: Look. you appeared on TV and said something that I can't get out of my head. You said that Ramon's family didn't give him enough love. You should know that in this house no one stopped loving Ramon for one single day. Not one day. I've been looking after him for many years and I love him like a son. I don't know which one of you is right. And I don't know if it's true what you say about life belonging to God and not to us but I do know one thing, okay? You have a very big mouth.

...

Ramon's brother: Can you tell me what you were doing in there? Do you know what they are talking about? What they want?
Ravi: And what do I do? Lock myself up in my room?
Ramon's brother: Do you understand what they really want? What happens if he wins the trial? Your uncle gets injected and dies, like a dog. And you'll never see him again. You will never see him again, Javier. Or do you think death is just a temporary thing? Please use your head. Death is a very serious thing, you hear me? Your uncle dies and you will never see him again!

...

Julia: What do you think? That I don't think about what happened to me? Of course, I think about it. Frequently. Every single day. It's like a nightmare. And I know that it will only get worse and worse until I end up like a vegetable. So I have reached a conclusion and I'm...I'm going to do it Ramon. I'm going to take my own life. But before I do it, if you want to, my love I would like to help you. To leave together.
Ramon: When?
Julia: I don't know. We are almost done with the book and I'll go to Barcelona and look for an editor so you can publish it. And then I'll come back with the first copy. That same day, Ramon. That same day.

...

Ramon [after Rosa has professed her love for him]: ...maybe we should clear up some things. Especially if we are talking about something as complex as love.
Rosa: Complex?
Ramon: Yes Rosa, complex. No matter how much you tell me that you love me, I will never be sure of how real your love is and...or if it's just an idealization of a man you wanted to find but couldn't or didn't.
Rosa: But what are you talking about, Ramon? Don't try to confuse me. Either you love or you don't. Love can't be reasoned out.

...

Rosa: What if I told you that...that you give me strength to live Ramon.
Rasmon: Wait, wait. Stop this thing for a moment. Sit over there. Let's see. Do you love your children?
Rosa: Of course I do.
Ramon: Well, there you have the strength to live. Don't give me that responsibility Rosa. Is that what you call love? Keep me here against my will? Look...The person that really loves me is the one who will help me die. That is loving me, Rosa. That's loving me.

...

Ramon [just before he commits suicide]: Judges, political and religious authorities. What does dignity mean to you? Whatever the answer of your conscience is, know that for me, this is not a worthy life. I would have liked to at least die with dignity. Today, tired of the institutional laziness, I see myself forced to do it in hiding, like a criminal. You should know that the processes leading to my death have been carefully divided into small actions that do not constitute a crime by themselves and have been executed by several friendly hands. If even then the state insists in punishing my helpers, I would suggest that you cut their hands, because that is all they contributed The head, I mean the conscience, was provided by me. As you can see, at my side I have a glass of water that contains a dose of potassium cyanide. When I drink it I will cease to exist relinquishing my most precious property. My body. I believe that living is a right not an obligation, as has been in my case forced to accept this sad situation during 28 years, months and some days. After all this time I make a balance of the road traveled and I can't account for the happiness. Only the time that passed against my will, during most of my life will be my ally from now on. Only time and the evolution of consciences will decide one day if my request was reasonable or not.

...

Gene [to Julia]: Well, you know that Ramon left me many letters. I think that he enjoyed leaving writings around after he died. The thing is that the other day I found this letter for you.
Julia: Ramon who?
Gene: Ramon Sampedro. Your friend. I introduced you two. Do you remember?
Julia: You did?


The stroke that finally takes her mind. Is it a good thing or a bad thing for her?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
iambiguous: a post from Pedro?
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Re: philosophy in film

Postby iambiguous » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:49 pm

The stranger. The sister. The wife. The mother. The dead girl.

A brutal ensemble in which disparate characters come together to create a whole. But never a whole in the sense most want. We each provide an interpretation of what it means. And of what could have [should have] been done to keep the dead girl alive.

Sex is the culprit here. Sex, men and the modern world.

IMDb:

"The dead girl the film centers on is ironically played by actress Brittany Murphy, who herself dies at a relatively young age of 32, almost three years after the release of this film."

But not the way Krista died.

THE DEAD GIRL
Written and directed by Karen Moncrieff

Rudy: Hey, you know I always thought it would be the coolest thing if when somebody's died you could peel off the top layer of their eyeball and develop it like film so you could have a picture of the last thing they saw.

...

Rudy: You want me to kiss you? [Arden nods her head] You gonna hold still? I don't have to tie you up, do I?
Arden: Maybe.
Rudy: Maybe what?
Arden: Maybe you should tie me up.

...

Rudy: I can't do it like this. You're not even kissing me. You're just lying there like you want me to rape you!
Arden: Okay.
Rudy: What, you want me to rape you?
Arden: I'll kiss you.
Rudy: And take the gloves off.

...

Arden: I don't want to talk about serial killers any more.

...

Derek: I don't know about you but every now and then I like to be around sonebody that's not dead.

...

Leah [to her parents]: Jenny's dead and I want to have a memorial service...She's dead. She didn't run away. She wasn't raised in the woods by wolves. She didn't hit her head and forget her name and where she lived, and she's not staying with some nice family of gypsies. Some man took her and did horrible things to her. And hid her body so well, that we'll never find her. And it doesn't matter how many posters we hang or petitions we sign or which picture we put near Jenny's bench, because she's dead and she's never coming back!

...

Melora: Did she tell you why she ran away?
Rosetta: She probably wasn't happy
Melora: Did she tell you why?
Rosetta: Other than her stepfather sticking his dick in her? I don't think so. She probably thought "hey man fuck it, if I'm going to do it I might as well get paid" and her mother was too much of a dish rag to do anything about it. You know, typical, the husband or the kids...they always trust the husband.
Melora: Did she tell you that?
Rosetta: What?
Melora: That her mother knew and chose him?
Rosetta: She probably likes it right? Probably took some of the load off, like having one of your kids help with the laundry
Melora: [starts crying]
Rosetta: You her mom?

...

Melora: I didn't know. I had no idea.
Rosetta: Well, now you know.

...

Melora: Krista had a child?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

tiny nietzsche: what's something that isn't nothing, but still feels like nothing?
iambiguous: a post from Pedro?
User avatar
iambiguous
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Posts: 38452
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

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