The Philosophers

This is the place to shave off that long white beard and stop being philosophical; a forum for members to just talk like normal human beings.

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:20 pm

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PostSubject: The monsters of information The monsters of information Icon_minitimeThu Oct 05, 2017 11:02 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
...are us. We moderns are the prototypes of a new kind of human, a new kind of animal that is built out of "knowledge" and "understanding". The internet has allowed this process to rapidly accelerate. Most people value themselves in terms of the "knowledge and understanding" they have, they do not value that information in terms of themselves: but we do, we monsters of truth value truth and facts in terms of ourselves because we have become/are becoming beings made out of truth and facts as such. This is what philosophy really means. A new type from which flow entirely new kinds of emoting, thinking, motivation, valuing, acting; everything becomes changed, upgraded. This is the opposite of transhumanism. Transhumanism is merely the resistance to the new type, the new type that is us.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: The monsters of information The monsters of information Icon_minitimeThu Oct 05, 2017 11:05 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
This new type unlocks access to orders of magnitude greater ranges of truth and being. We are daemonic-heroic, we are self-valuing, we are tectonic. Information is our physiology, facts and truths are our playground for the self-discovery of the subjectivity of the new type. And I mean all of this in the most literal sense possible. This is not a metaphor.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: The monsters of information The monsters of information Icon_minitimeThu Oct 05, 2017 11:28 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Morality is the limit-become-substance at the point at which information cannot be values in terms of oneself. Since obviously historically and even now most people cannot attend to being the new type, they must find a way to exist within that limitation. So the limit became substance and a structure built up on that substance, which structure has determined human values thus far. Because they cannot value their knowledge and understanding in terms of themselves, people at least learned how to value that limit in terms of themselves.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: The monsters of information The monsters of information Icon_minitimeThu Oct 05, 2017 10:54 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I have, in the past, spoken harshly of those who are internet educated, know everything, but can't do anything themselves.

I will likely have opportunities in the future to make similar criticism.

Facts are great. Can you apply them to real life situations?
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PostSubject: Re: The monsters of information The monsters of information Icon_minitimeFri Oct 06, 2017 6:54 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Sisyphus wrote:
I have, in the past, spoken harshly of those who are internet educated, know everything, but can't do anything themselves.

I will likely have opportunities in the future to make similar criticism.

Facts are great. Can you apply them to real life situations?

Deep in their hearts all men long for the end of the world - paraphrasing someone.
Meaning: all real men loathe the condition of not being forced to provide for life's necessities themselves. Civilization is always a prison for men. The only thing we can do it is truly to own it so we have freedom from its stupid rules.


So thats what we'll do.



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" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: The monsters of information The monsters of information Icon_minitimeFri Oct 06, 2017 10:55 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:

Deep in their hearts all men long for the end of the world - paraphrasing someone.
Meaning: all real men loathe the condition of not being forced to provide for life's necessities themselves. Civilization is always a prison for men. The only thing we can do it is truly to own it so we have freedom from its stupid rules.


So thats what we'll do.

Yeah, I own my freedom. It has been paid for many times over. And I own my value system. What? An Anarchist with values? Yep.






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PostSubject: Finance Finance Icon_minitimeSun Dec 17, 2017 5:33 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
removed from the ingrates at ILP



It's funny, I had a thought... a king wearing gold sitting on a gold throne, corrupted by the machineries of the universe revolving around the metal that can not become corrupted itself, the gold.


Law of Value

Spontaneous exchange brings multiplication and increase
spontaneous exchange is increase.

value/value = 2(value + q)

where q is any number greater than 0
and q is conditioned by R
which is reality
and shall be further disclosed








::


Zero_Sum wrote:
Yes, Bitcoins is real but it isn't what most people think it is in that it is just electronic counterfeiting, money laundering, and greater fools money racket.

It's also an experimental trial run for when they role out eventually the real global singular electronic currency. It's amusing watching the value of Bitcoin these days go parabolic over the value of gold, I wonder how long that trend will continue.
There is a lot to be said for gold, but it doesn't provide an exchange network. You have to go through persons and use up time and carry around stuff you don't want to be carrying around. People want to store value. The dollar is an open container and it won't disappear but the Bitcoin is another container, which isn't entirely open but contains a structural integrity that acts as a network builder and a memory of transactions. It is its own registry. People are spawning all sorts of other blockchain applications, like Ripple which acts as an intra-banks financial net and is skyrocketing as a relative value, as it is relatively more useful than other currencies, you can interchange it into many things and it sets things in motion, like money used to do when it was still good, backed with gold, the archetypical structural integrity of the physical world.

Its hard to trump gold when you are a metal. But cryptocurrencies will find it hard to challenge Bitcoin.
Gold does not mind anything, it will out last all of us.
Bitcoin might outlast us, in a wallet of an AI. Maybe AI willl erupt when it sees a chance to get rich.






Metaphor Mansion

gold corrupt because it is incorruptible
all is relative except gold
golden rule
he who has the gold, rules


All spontaneous value exchange brings increase. That means it partakes in the will to power, and seeks to eliminate other species of spontaneous or not so spontaneous value exchange, strong and weak wills.

Means of exchange do their part in determine ways in which values perpetuate. Sneakily, through its accountancy, the universe proceeded henceforth...
Who can tell the future is he who knows what he wants. - Captain Blizzard




::





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" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: Finance Finance Icon_minitimeSun Dec 17, 2017 5:34 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Metaphor Mansion

gold corrupt because it is incorruptible
all is relative except gold
golden rule
he who has the gold, rules


All spontaneous value exchange brings increase. That means it partakes in the will to power, and seeks to eliminate other species of spontaneous or not so spontaneous value exchange, strong and weak wills.

Means of exchange do their part in determine ways in which values perpetuate. Sneakily, through its accountancy, the universe proceeded henceforth...
Who can tell the future is he who knows what he wants. - Captain Blizzard



::

Its the same as your bank account. Its just numbers, but people let you buy stuff with those numbers.
There isn't an actual stack of bills on your name. But your balance is real, in as far as it can "affect", certainly.

The coins certainly exist technically, they are generated by laborious processes and unlike fiat money they are a there to be verified for anyone. The value attributed to them is largely a result of how well they function as a currency in an age of increased complexity where fiat money results in more and more inflation and poverty. I think the European Central Banks long standing policy to uphold negative interest rates, making it impossible for people to save money through banks, and even resulting in people having to pay to let the bank control their money, is also making people look for financial institutions/methods that promise some return on investment.

The ECB is like the anti-bank. It is destroying banking and stimulating alternatives. I don't know if its head Draghi is aware of this.



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" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: Finance Finance Icon_minitimeSun Dec 17, 2017 7:26 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Money is always abstract, whether that money is paper currency, digital currency (I like the parallel meaning between 'currency' and 'current'), or gold coins. You cannot eat a gold coin, you can't "do" anything much useful with it really, at least unless you have a blacksmith forge of some kind. But gold is really too soft to turn into a knife or anything else metallic that is decently hard enough to be useful in a practical way.

Once we evolved past bartering chickens for wheat, the universe opened to us.

I think the lesson is this: value cannot be quantified except through a process of 'abstraction', i.e. what we call consciousness. In other words, what we call consciousness is the process of abstracting in such a way as to lead to the further quantification of values.

Values exist, "money" will always follow. Money is just a language of value-creation.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Finance Finance Icon_minitimeSun Dec 17, 2017 11:40 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Sad you were removed from the ILP roles.

Yes, stop giving support for helpful efforts so the wealthy can have more money be it gold or whatever.

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PostSubject: Re: Finance Finance Icon_minitimeFri Jan 05, 2018 9:24 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
This could be a genius solution to their inflation problem. Given that cryptos are deflation oriented.
Good name. Almost perfect.

https://cryptopanic.com/news/729566/Mor ... ypto-Petro
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... to-bitcoin

Ill keep an eye on this.


(so the news is that they are the first to launch an asset-backed cryptocurrency. Curious show this works technically, but it sure is a promising move)



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides


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PostSubject: Re: Finance Finance Icon_minitimeFri Jan 05, 2018 9:26 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Sisyphus wrote:
Sad you were removed from the ILP roles.

Who was removed from what?




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" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: Finance Finance Icon_minitimeFri Jan 05, 2018 9:40 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
AH - sorry. No that was me, I deleted my posts there and put them here instead. Felt too much of a gift for a site that isn't giving back a lot lately.



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" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: Finance Finance Icon_minitimeFri Jan 05, 2018 9:42 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Not counting PMs. One guy tipped me to a couple of stocks, won't name names but with several stocks, they propelled up above 20 percent the day after he mentioned them.
Friendship is everything. Friendship has replaced God.



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- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: Finance Finance Icon_minitimeFri Jan 05, 2018 11:59 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Waiting on that bitcoal
for all then miners





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- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: Finance Finance Icon_minitimeFri Jan 05, 2018 12:05 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
"Friendship has replaced God."

Haha yeah. What has "God" ever been except one's one lack of true friends?



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Finance Finance Icon_minitimeFri Jan 05, 2018 12:06 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
AH - sorry. No that was me, I deleted my posts there and put them here instead. Felt too much of a gift for a site that isn't giving back a lot lately.

No worry. I get lost often but eventually I stop moving and find myself.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
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Re: The Philosophers

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:25 pm

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PostSubject: Schaak Schaak Icon_minitimeFri Jan 26, 2018 9:40 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The first time a player quit on me after I castled.

https://lichess.org/8mkLHMdXGGOp



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" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides


Last edited by Fixed Cross on Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Schaak Schaak Icon_minitimeSat Jan 27, 2018 9:33 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Pezers opening by the way.
Ive found this to overwhelm low players.



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PostSubject: Re: Schaak Schaak Icon_minitimeMon Jan 29, 2018 10:30 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
https://lichess.org/wqJ8RIooUrgy



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PostSubject: Re: Schaak Schaak Icon_minitimeMon Jan 29, 2018 4:21 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
https://lichess.org/FG7t6uno7hUY
lost a shitload trying then came back to finally be allowed the same buildup



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PostSubject: Re: Schaak Schaak Icon_minitimeThu Feb 01, 2018 9:30 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
ok so below 1500 is truly complete dorkhood.
https://lichess.org/oxdsvsBcLvpV



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PostSubject: Re: Schaak Schaak Icon_minitimeSat Feb 03, 2018 6:01 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I los three times in a row from a timeout out of a beautiful position because a faltering connection. Very irritating, so I went on losing the next games in irritation.



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PostSubject: Re: Schaak Schaak Icon_minitimeSat Feb 03, 2018 7:12 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Want to play a few games for practice/training purposes?



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Schaak Schaak Icon_minitimeSat Feb 03, 2018 7:18 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I find that doesn't work, I can only play on equal footing. Its better if you beat me than if we get stuck in theory. Ill learn from any game against a good opponent.



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- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: Schaak Schaak Icon_minitimeSat Feb 03, 2018 7:26 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
That makes sense. I’m always up for straight up games too.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Schaak Schaak Icon_minitimeSat Feb 03, 2018 7:47 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Alright nice.



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PostSubject: Re: Schaak Schaak Icon_minitimeSun Feb 04, 2018 8:01 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
dude took my queen, thought he was out of the woods

https://lichess.org/Ddvtd2QXPcWr



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PostSubject: Re: Schaak Schaak Icon_minitimeSun Feb 04, 2018 8:04 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Jezuz that’s brutal. You’ve gotten really good with tactics and tempo. Nice.



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“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Schaak Schaak Icon_minitimeSun Feb 04, 2018 8:31 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Haha, thanks.
I discover in these situations that there is an incredible power to the king, as it directly directs the other players moves.

Also I find its a difficult art using a queen and not have it be a precious mantlepiece that mustn't be broken
When I check my analytics I see that most of my "average centipawn loss" is by far the highest with my queen. Some fundamental rule about the queen must exist, of which Im not yet aware.

do you have any rules where she is concerned?



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PostSubject: Re: Schaak Schaak Icon_minitimeSun Feb 04, 2018 8:44 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
We talked about the queen and the horses, or you did, but when I read that I was also contemplating a strategy using queen and horses as complementary halves of the core unit of a strategy. I havent been able to implement anything, as I don't master the queen well enough. Have you worked with this complementary knights/queen idea?


edit - knight is "paard", horse, in Dutch.
Bishop is "loper", walker.



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PostSubject: Re: Schaak Schaak Icon_minitimeSun Feb 04, 2018 8:52 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I remember thinking about how the knight exactly covers those squares within a three square radius that the queen does not cover, their attacks map onto each other perfectly. But the queen is also dangerous because of how she has to move away when attacked, except by another queen where you can do a trade. I like your idea about the king and it’s power to direct all other pieces. This seems to go well with those Fischer games where he brings his king out right away. I’ll have to think about his more.

Centipawn loas is something I never took the time to understand. I’ll have to look at that too.










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PostSubject: film battle film battle Icon_minitimeSun Jun 24, 2018 2:05 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
We shall outdo each other in cool setups and scenes.


I found this in an old mail to Pezer from the Rosemont Entertainment account.


"In the future, Canada is the most powerful nation on the face of the planet. As global warming has wiped out most of the warmer continents the masses have come to the north to swarm Canada's unfrozen bays in the North, where a new culture is sprawling, Some call it: New Atlantis. In reality it is still the British Crown. The United States fulfills the function of a filter and takes up all the scum and puts them into private prisons, paid for by a barely sustained populace of the new 2nd world, Northern Europe and the US. A transit zone to the New Lands, which in fact are centralized in Denmarks rule of Greenland. In the South, Argentina has become a center of refuge and is inexplicabily dense with evil. We will come to that nation in the course of the story. But the story is devastating; due to the climatological disasters, not only have lands been wiped out but diseases have spread and man has been narrowed down some 20 percent but proves remarkably resilient on the whole. Other species die out but strange mutations are seen in sea animals. It seems like more primordial times are arriving; but this is only a matter of speculation and for ridicule as far as our hero, Dan Brown McConaugheyw, is concerned... he is only after the truth. In his back pocket he carries "On the Road" and the Holy Bible - he is one of the last remaining Christians."



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PostSubject: Re: film battle film battle Icon_minitimeSun Jun 24, 2018 2:21 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
That is a fantastic setup. And I love the character’s name lol.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: The Philosophers

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:27 pm

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PostSubject: This One Time This One Time Icon_minitimeSun Aug 05, 2018 2:33 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I was 17, drivung with my brother on the highway. I go to switch to the fast lane but the car behind decides fuck me and doesnt slow down. I swerve out just in time. Angrily I swerbe back in and right back out again as some asshole decides he'll zip through anyway. Appearently that asshole didn't like this.

So he switches back in front of me on my lane and starts slowing down. I try to pass him but he blocks me, all the time slowing down. I'm in a 97 Accord, he a 9something Corolla. As the exit comes up we are almost at a full stop. I aim at the middle between highway and exit and he is forced to let me pass, see where I go. The exit is to my neighbourhood so I take it. Fly down a very sharp curve, Corolla in tow.

We get to a red light on usually busy intersection so I stop. Guy gets out. Not dirt poor but certainly not rich. Does he have a gun? They often do and people get shot for far less. He comes up to the window and starts banging on it. Something whispers to me but then I remember my brother is with me and he dont like battle, doesnt do well in it. So I run the light fast. He runs back to his car and gives chase.

We are going very fast in a very residencial area.

I zip and zag and cross and accelerate, but streets too narrow to gain speed. I see a street I know leads to a more major one, and its an oncoming lane. I drive fast into it, maybe he'll think it's not worth it. He doesn't though. There is a small cue of cars looking angrily back at me. I swerve past em with angryman in tow.

I finally decide if I wont batyle and cant outrun, Ill drive past police station very fast and honk. After I swerve into a much wider and more busy oncoming, swerving and dodging, anfrydude in tow. Then the popo pull us over. Angry gives his version, I give mine, a concerned citizen that appearently followed us from the highway hives his calling angry a crazy.

Popo decides to let me go, wait 5 and let crazy go, and leave well enough alone.
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PostSubject: Re: This One Time This One Time Icon_minitimeSun Aug 05, 2018 2:36 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
seems like we’ve had many of the same experiences
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PostSubject: Re: This One Time This One Time Icon_minitimeSun Aug 05, 2018 2:40 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I don't need to throw bottles at anything. If I let it it just finds ne.
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PostSubject: Re: This One Time This One Time Icon_minitimeSun Aug 05, 2018 2:46 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
haha, fair enough







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PostSubject: developing wing chun chess developing wing chun chess Icon_minitimeMon Nov 05, 2018 8:56 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
watch all games in real time speed. that’s the only rule of chess games posted in this thread.

and try to develop speed, accuracy, power.


https://lichess.org/V1MGzy1S/white#95



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PostSubject: Re: developing wing chun chess developing wing chun chess Icon_minitimeMon Nov 05, 2018 9:32 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
https://lichess.org/Vpogwa0Z/white#61



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I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: developing wing chun chess developing wing chun chess Icon_minitimeTue Nov 06, 2018 2:47 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
https://lichess.org/9Nr8eR8r/white#89



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Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: developing wing chun chess developing wing chun chess Icon_minitimeTue Nov 06, 2018 6:51 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
oh yeah https://lichess.org/nIc8c6NZ/white#71



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Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: developing wing chun chess developing wing chun chess Icon_minitimeThu Dec 20, 2018 8:53 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
https://lichess.org/nZ7Qoods/white#49



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You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: developing wing chun chess developing wing chun chess Icon_minitimeThu Dec 20, 2018 8:58 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
everybody wang chung tonight!

https://lichess.org/nH0lET8uE5br






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74553986 Empty
PostSubject: 74553986 74553986 Icon_minitimeTue Nov 20, 2018 4:36 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
632935

6255239

3328455733

1283744329234

1 4 7

4 4 7

4 4 4

1234 5

(1)

916 414 747 268 386 9711




7518

9*3= 77
9+3= 2

77
2

2
77

768=867

7125 is 717 is

89

with (2)

to communicate some numbers are needed,

7777 for sure and also 4545 and 817653942853769991615141323132999




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“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: 74553986 74553986 Icon_minitimeWed Jun 12, 2019 11:02 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Defenders of the Earth wrote:

to communicate some numbers are needed,

7777 for sure and also 4545 and 817653942853769991615141323132999


m trying to help out here. Let me see. Just stepping into the fucking storm.

737

848

20

09

13

24

28/38

9

8

9

etc (14 (6+7+1), 21, 12, 41 (6x7-1))



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PostSubject: Re: 74553986 74553986 Icon_minitimeWed Jun 12, 2019 11:10 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
1111111111 = 1

222222222 = 9

33333333 = 6

4444444 = 1

555555 = 3

66666 = 3

7777 = 1

888 = 6

99 = 9

1 = 1



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PostSubject: Re: 74553986 74553986 Icon_minitimeWed Jun 12, 2019 11:24 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
7

1234567 = 28 = 1

35791113 = 30 = 3

8121610224 = 27 = 9

933771246 = 42 = 6

126101483610 = 33 = 6



"7" = 13966 = 1312 = 7




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PostSubject: Wardrums Wardrums Icon_minitimeFri Jun 14, 2019 8:45 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
From some comment section:

Quote :

Nadlers Pants I Like My Crumbs • 4 hours ago
Yesterday proves that AMERICA IS NO LONGER at the MERCY of the middle east for oil anymore....Thanks President Trump.... If anything that just might scare the Iranians showing them they have 0 power...The Price of oil is stable today....what would a barrel be if this happened during Obamas Presidency.......25 more today...

jpatriot18 Nadlers Pants • 4 hours ago
A very good point!

DougS jpatriot18 • 3 hours ago
Iranians themselves ushered in this terrorist regime and it's up to THEM to get rid of it if they even WANT to...

The Bush clan convinced many of us (myself include admittedly) that bringing freedom to the Middle East by force would be welcomed & stabilizing.... well THAT costly experiment has been run and once again confirms that freedom is NOT a universal value.

Some cultures don't WANT freedom & much prefer some despotic regime lording over their lives.

If they deserve it - fine.... sanctions, maybe some ordinance, whatever.... but using our own blood & treasure to bring freedom to those who gave theirs away is no longer in my value system.

He said "my value system".

Wardrums Giphy




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PostSubject: Re: Wardrums Wardrums Icon_minitimeFri Jun 14, 2019 8:47 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
And yet the first guy makes an excellent point.

Todays headline on the mainstream paper was peacetime in Baghdad. A picture of an intellectual coffee-hall kind of sunlit bar with wooden tables and reading people made me forget all misery of the west for an instant. No one needs Iran or the way it has been self-valuing. But.... this is all out of our hands. Iran has been clamouring for war for ever and that is quite literal, as they have in their thousands of years of existence not very often been loved for their peacefulness. The current Athenians have not named the entrance of their harbour "Themistocles" for nothing.



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PostSubject: Re: Wardrums Wardrums Icon_minitimeFri Jun 14, 2019 1:36 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
another commenter wrote:
The phone company can not cut your access to phone service because they don't like your speech content.
YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter are now means of communication--they have become the 21st century phone--as such they should be considered utilities and open to all regardless of content.
Time for legislation to bring the first amendment into cyber space.



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PostSubject: Re: Wardrums Wardrums Icon_minitimeTue Jun 18, 2019 2:11 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Curiously enough the war in Iraq did, in the end, due to Trump coming to power, result in the long desired secular peace in Baghdad. Intellectual freedom might emerge there, as we are at risk of squandering it in the west.

Not that I think we will end up squandering it definitively. I think some psyches on the left are beginning to allow for some self-reflection. Why do I think this? In part because Ive just finished Bret Easton Ellis' non fiction account of it all and because this book, which very explicitly tells the story of the rise of leftist insanity, is very prominently displayed in a popular bookstore in Amsterdam, my mom who gave me this book told me. It is absolutely a good sign that this book is allowed here.

But back to the East - Im noting this about Iraq in response to a moralistic RT article that states that the US plans to make tactical strikes on Iranian nuclear facilities based on this tanker incident point to a refusal to learn from the lessons of the consequences of Powells lies. But - there always was good reason to end Saddams reign, the ostensibly false WMD narrative was just a means to get the hypocritical UN behind it - I remember watching Powell exhibit it and not believing a single word and yet not minding it all because I wanted Saddam gone - it may all be terribly immoral, but I really don't want completely savage fascist regimes obtaining any global power whatsoever, and I am extremely relieved still that Obamas policy of making Iran into an atomic superpower has been cut short, and I don't believe for a second the majority of Iranians would be terribly upset if not all their countrys wealth went into attempts to destroy the US Europe and Israel, but went into cultivating Iran as a civilization.

Iran is perhaps the most bellicose nation on Earth, seeing how long it has existed and that it has since its days as the Persian Empire never been at ease keeping to itself. In fact there are accounts of Iranian warfare going back over ten thousand years into some parallel history described by Rudolf Steiner, when it was supposedly at war with Turan.

I might not be opposed to Iran having nukes in case it converts to a rational, cooperative, sane kind of power, of which I consider he population highly capable. In fact if they convert to being sane, there may not be a way to stop them from obtaining nukes, simply because there won't be sufficient reason to deny them the right.

But that is not the case now. If Iran obtains nukes now we have the certainty of nuclear Saudi Arabia and a nuclear Turkey and this means all European nations will want to arm themselves. I think this is a possible future which might as well be averted.

Plus, Iran wants war. It has been cultivating nothing besides the expectation of being attacked. It constantly proclaims doom on all of the western world, and is constantly disrupting life in neighbouring nations. It would take history a great afford to avoid rewarding action with reaction.




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PostSubject: Re: Wardrums Wardrums Icon_minitimeTue Jun 18, 2019 2:22 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Iran is open about having spies throughout the west, and it routinely assassinates Iranians who have escaped to our countries here. It is a country at open war with over a dozen nations. But it is so successful in employing antisemitism to blame Israel for all of its actions, that it has gone on uninterrupted except my Israels constant efforts to prevent its own destruction at the hands of Iranian proxies, off which the Obama administration was one of the most efficient. I don't know that they need to be this intrusive. But then perhaps this is simply the genetics of the current regime; war on all foreign nations at all costs. Remember it is at odds not only with the west but with virtually every nation in its region as well. It doesn't have a lot of allies other than Russia, and I have no fucking clue what Russia is thinking at the moment. It doesn't say anything, hasn't been expressing anything for quite a while. I take this as a sign that they've received some respect they were due, like for example the US withdrawing from Syria and leaving Assad, and Trumps recognition of Crimea as a done deal, and probably a whole lot more. Sanctions are an ongoing show of hostility but beneath that surface, Russia's interests have, compared to what was the case in 2013 and 2014, been somewhat secured, or so it seems to me.

Russia is sill foolishly flirting with China and 5G, which will come at massive cost to any nation that takes the contract. Mas-sive, massively massive cost. On the one hand one can't blame them for keeping close to China, on the other, it may be as bad a bet as any of the others now available. Perhaps each country does best now by turning into itself, and ceasing to act on globalistic ambitions. Iran however will not turn into itself, its current self valuing is anchored in, draws its life from, its warmongering vis a vis the west.



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PostSubject: Re: Wardrums Wardrums Icon_minitimeTue Jun 18, 2019 2:37 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Irans technique for enriching Uranium was even stolen from around the corner from where I was raised, at the same hadron collider site where my dad developed his memory chip in the early 90s, and smuggled to Pakistan. I already think it is unbalanced, given this fact, that the Netherlands do not have nukes and Pakistan does, but Pakistan expresses and commits no hostilities on us. Iran is another mater. If they use our technology to build the bomb, we will need to develop it as well. And so will Italy, Greece, Serbia, Lithuania, Hungary, any nation that is being threatened and/or compromised by Iran directly or indrirectly. This will apply most of all to all Sunni muslim states. There is no way one could convince them to not develop nukes if Shia Iran, so explicitly out to harm those who experience God differently, is permitted one. This would definitely be good for Uranium stocks but otherwise I don't like the idea very much at all.



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PostSubject: Re: Wardrums Wardrums Icon_minitimeTue Jun 18, 2019 4:18 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
https://www.jpost.com/International/Sin ... sts-592892

badass!

J-Post wrote:

'SING HALLELUJAH TO THE LORD' EMERGES AS ANTHEM OF HONG KONG'S PROTESTS

For the past week, the hymn has been heard almost non-stop at the main protest site, in front of the city's Legislative Council, and at marches and even at tense stand-offs with the police.

Hahah this is incredibly awesome.

Atheism is dead.



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PostSubject: Re: Wardrums Wardrums Icon_minitimeTue Jun 18, 2019 4:39 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
These look nice
https://www.rt.com/russia/462135-mig35- ... et-russia/

Meanwhile,
Russia, which owns thousands of nukes, criticizes Israel for having 90 nukes and being against Iran acquiring nukes.

Not judging, just observing the cognitive level of newscast-based propaganda. We could decide to get beyond that kind of thing as mankind.

I think instead of newscaster companies we want only individual sources we can select from a list of millions.

We should have a radio-dial like interface for selecting sources by latitude and longitude.



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PostSubject: Re: Wardrums Wardrums Icon_minitimeTue Jun 18, 2019 5:25 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Jesus is pretty damn fucking powerful.



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PostSubject: Re: Wardrums Wardrums Icon_minitimeTue Jun 18, 2019 5:31 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster



"It's frustrating. But then again this is Iraq."

That's a Democrat.



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PostSubject: Re: Wardrums Wardrums Icon_minitimeMon Jun 24, 2019 10:51 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fundamentalist old world medieval theocracies with nuclear weapons is a bad idea.



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You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Wardrums Wardrums Icon_minitimeTue Jun 25, 2019 7:12 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
In general its a bad idea to allow any new nations to acquire nukes. Given the entitlement-age we live in, every godforsaken shithole on the planet will start developing these bombs.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: The Philosophers

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:32 pm

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PostSubject: Expression Expression Icon_minitimeWed Dec 14, 2011 6:06 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Is matter an expression of perception or perception an expression of matter?

When an event happens such as a car wreck did was the mass pushed there by the infinite collisions in reality or was that mass pulled there by the need for the occurrence of the event or the desire of maybe the collective perception?
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PostSubject: Re: Expression Expression Icon_minitimeSat Jan 14, 2012 9:17 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Abstract wrote:
Is matter an expression of perception or perception an expression of matter?

When an event happens such as a car wreck did was the mass pushed there by the infinite collisions in reality or was that mass pulled there by the need for the occurrence of the event or the desire of maybe the collective perception?
You are Abstract! Smile

Our experience of matter is an expression of perception. You and I may perceive a tree differently - qualia - but at the same time, we see the physical tree and its characteristics basically the same. No?
The soul of the tree, on the other hand, we may perceive differently.

Insofar as we are made of matter - and we as matter are doing the perceiving, then one can say that perception is an expression of matter.

Insofar as the car wreck is concerned, I tend to look on it as a continuity of cause and effect. Everything is connected to everything else and in a sense that is what caused the wreck. Realistically speaking, it was human failing that caused it or just some fluke. But there are or appear to be a lot of things that are unexplainable in the universe that appear to have meaning because of random actions and what appears to be synchronicity - are we placing meaning on something because of the good or the bad that comes as a result of it and ought we to?








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PostSubject: Re: Expression Expression Icon_minitimeMon Jan 16, 2012 5:27 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
VaerosTanarg wrote:

You are Abstract! Smile

Our experience of matter is an expression of perception. You and I may perceive a tree differently - qualia - but at the same time, we see the physical tree and its characteristics basically the same. No?
The soul of the tree, on the other hand, we may perceive differently.

Insofar as we are made of matter - and we as matter are doing the perceiving, then one can say that perception is an expression of matter.

Insofar as the car wreck is concerned, I tend to look on it as a continuity of cause and effect. Everything is connected to everything else and in a sense that is what caused the wreck. Realistically speaking, it was human failing that caused it or just some fluke. But there are or appear to be a lot of things that are unexplainable in the universe that appear to have meaning because of random actions and what appears to be synchronicity - are we placing meaning on something because of the good or the bad that comes as a result of it and ought we to?


I think often we place meaning on a specific domino in the line of infinite dominoes because that one is the one that if effected and called the cause, will prevent (as best as we know) the problem from happening again... we punish the murder to prevent further crime not to revenge... (or at least so it should be IMO)

What is to say that we are matter rather then matter is us? that is to say it is just an expression of our perception...I think for that there is no telling, but given where we are in thought now it seems more beneficial to work out the equations so as to 'science' under the assumption that matter is the base rather then perception.

But to the topic; if time were reversed would perhaps the result not be seen as the cause... and who is to say which time perceiver has the 'right' point of view.
Perhaps rather then asking which is the cause we should see that their is no cause.

(perhaps someday they will find that there is no limit to speed but rather that things that go faster then the speed of light simply can't be perceived..by us.. anymore...which might explain why if you are going as fast as light the light beam directed at you from a stand still would still appear as light... because what you are really seeing then is the stuff that was going faster ...)



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"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: Expression Expression Icon_minitimeFri Feb 03, 2012 9:02 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Quote :
I think often we place meaning on a specific domino in the line of infinite dominoes because that one is the one that if effected and called the cause, will prevent (as best as we know) the problem from happening again... we punish the murder to prevent further crime not to revenge... (or at least so it should be IMO)

Hmmm…but if we consider that one domino as a human being, let’s say, then we would have to see that it was not the cause so much as it was a continuation of or a continuity of flow (for lack of a better word/phrase). In order to find the cause, one has to begin at the beginning or work backwards to the beginning. If I understand what you’re saying here.

We might punish the murderer to prevent further crime but as you may know, punishment in itself can be, at best, only a deterrent, and does not get at the cause or the root of something.



Quote :
What is to say that we are matter rather then matter is us?
Can you explain the distinction you are making here?


Quote :
that is to say it is just an expression of our perception...I think for that there is no telling,
Unless I am misunderstanding you here, I don’t think of ‘matter’ as ‘just’ an expression of our perception. It is a word that we have coined to ‘mean’ and to ‘describe’ something, unless that is what you meant. We all ‘perceive’ things differently, in the larger sense of the word, as the way in which each individual first sensates and then ‘sees’ it - but we recognize them within the category which we’ve given them. You and I recognize the ‘sky’ – at the same time, the words which we might use to express the way in which we ‘perceive’ it - because of our personal sensations - may be worlds apart. I hope that makes sense.


Quote :
but given where we are in thought now it seems more beneficial to work out the equations so as to 'science' under the assumption that matter is the base rather then perception.
“Base’ as in physical evidence? Perhaps we 'may' also consider 'perception' as a base - perception as the base under which we tend to adopt our beliefs, for instance, but of course, I'm digressing here probably.


Quote :
But to the topic; if time were reversed would perhaps the result not be seen as the cause...
Psychologically speaking - yes.I suppose that I could see it that way. In terms of my own life, accepting everything as it is and loving that – as in Amor Fati, I could see both as being the same...or the result being the 'real' cause ..but one could only see that in hindsight. Aside from that, one might say that considering how things did turn out, could it have turned out any other way – the end result is always determined by its beginnings and its continuity of flow.

There is also a school of thought that the Big Bang is actually the end result of another universe destroyed...so not the beginning as many think but an end which gave rise to a new beginning Rolling Eyes . It just depends on how one looks at something. Cause and effect is not so black and white.



Quote :
and who is to say which time perceiver has the 'right' point of view.
There really is no right point of view – it just depends on where you are standing when you are looking.


Quote :
Perhaps rather then asking which is the cause we should see that their is no cause.
Well, I am not so sure that there IS NO CAUSE. But there is not just one cause – the cause is the whole of it.


Quote :
(perhaps someday they will find that there is no limit to speed but rather that things that go faster then the speed of light simply can't be perceived..by us.. anymore...which might explain why if you are going as fast as light the light beam directed at you from a stand still would still appear as light... because what you are really seeing then is the stuff that was going faster ...)
Is this somehow tied into cause?



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Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Expression Expression Icon_minitimeWed Feb 15, 2012 5:49 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
VaerosTanarg wrote:
Quote :
I think often we place meaning on a specific domino in the line of infinite dominoes because that one is the one that if effected and called the cause, will prevent (as best as we know) the problem from happening again... we punish the murder to prevent further crime not to revenge... (or at least so it should be IMO)

Hmmm…but if we consider that one domino as a human being, let’s say, then we would have to see that it was not the cause so much as it was a continuation of or a continuity of flow (for lack of a better word/phrase). In order to find the cause, one has to begin at the beginning or work backwards to the beginning. If I understand what you’re saying here.

We might punish the murderer to prevent further crime but as you may know, punishment in itself can be, at best, only a deterrent, and does not get at the cause or the root of something.
Well my point would be that "cause" is ultimately not a reality just an abstraction. There is no cause... because the dominos stretch back to the beginning of time... "beginning" of time is a contradiction so realy there is no beginning things just are... The point of identifying what might be called the cause is to find that which when prevented deters as I said... and yes often our punishments don't work...I feel we need more 'corrective in our corective instituion of course... perhaps though the reason what corrections we make don't really work is because we are trying to correct the wrong thing..perhaps a symptom rather then the actual problem.


[quote]
Quote :
What is to say that we are matter rather then matter is us?
Can you explain the distinction you are making here?


Quote :

Quote :
that is to say it is just an expression of our perception...I think for that there is no telling,
Unless I am misunderstanding you here, I don’t think of ‘matter’ as ‘just’ an expression of our perception. It is a word that we have coined to ‘mean’ and to ‘describe’ something, unless that is what you meant. We all ‘perceive’ things differently, in the larger sense of the word, as the way in which each individual first sensates and then ‘sees’ it - but we recognize them within the category which we’ve given them. You and I recognize the ‘sky’ – at the same time, the words which we might use to express the way in which we ‘perceive’ it - because of our personal sensations - may be worlds apart. I hope that makes sense.
I believe what I meant was that perhaps matter is just a thing we have created with our spirit/mind/perception...and really all there is is thought... ( that i believe is one of those things like the concept of god, it cannot be proved or disproved...)

Quote :

Quote :
but given where we are in thought now it seems more beneficial to work out the equations so as to 'science' under the assumption that matter is the base rather then perception.
“Base’ as in physical evidence? Perhaps we 'may' also consider 'perception' as a base - perception as the base under which we tend to adopt our beliefs, for instance, but of course, I'm digressing here probably.
What I meant was the actual reality = base... the true 'thing' that all is made of...

Quote :

Quote :
and who is to say which time perceiver has the 'right' point of view.
There really is no right point of view – it just depends on where you are standing when you are looking.
but if you are standing in the same spot as another and think something else is the right point of view then which is right...?


Quote :
Perhaps rather then asking which is the cause we should see that their is no cause.
Well, I am not so sure that there IS NO CAUSE. But there is not just one cause – the cause is the whole of it.

Quote :

Quote :
(perhaps someday they will find that there is no limit to speed but rather that things that go faster then the speed of light simply can't be perceived..by us.. anymore...which might explain why if you are going as fast as light the light beam directed at you from a stand still would still appear as light... because what you are really seeing then is the stuff that was going faster ...)
Is this somehow tied into cause?
Lol.... scratch I have no idea why I said that...



___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: Expression Expression Icon_minitimeFri Feb 17, 2012 6:39 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Quote :
Abstract wrote:

Well my point would be that "cause" is ultimately not a reality just an abstraction. There is no cause... because the dominos stretch back to the beginning of time... "beginning" of time is a contradiction so realy there is no beginning things just are... The point of identifying what might be called the cause is to find that which when prevented deters as I said... and yes often our punishments don't work...I feel we need more 'corrective in our corective instituion of course... perhaps though the reason what corrections we make don't really work is because we are trying to correct the wrong thing..perhaps a symptom rather then the actual problem.
But an abstraction ultimately points to something concrete, some truth, right?
I think that there has to be a cause - as in meaning that something was affected by something else. Speaking of the origin of the universe, isn't it a bit unrealistic to say that there was no beginning? I do understand though what you mean by no cause - since everything from the 'beginning' has continued to be affected by everything else as in a continuity - or as you say, the domino effect.

Perhaps the only reason things do not get corrected is because we do not get at the root of the problem. We need to go back to the very beginning in order to see it all or we are taking things out of context. There cannot be healing or movement without total seeing.


Quote :
What is to say that we are matter rather then matter is us?

Can you explain the distinction you are making here?
It was Vaeros Tanarg who was asking for the distinction here. The only thought that comes to me here is that, as matter, we ALSO happen to ourselves. We do not simply make things happen. You may find that a bit silly.


Quote :
that is to say it is just an expression of our perception...I think for that there is no telling,

I believe what I meant was that perhaps matter is just a thing we have created with our spirit/mind/perception...and really all there is is thought... ( that i believe is one of those things like the concept of god, it cannot be proved or disproved...)
What do you mean here - as the buddhists believe - that it is all illusion? Are you saying that matter is not real and that it has no physical properties? That it is simply illusion? Try pinching yourself, Abstract, do you not feel or hurt when you do that?

Matter isn't simply a concept - it's also reality. It's physical. God is a concept which cannot be proven except within our minds and hearts. Unless I am misunderstanding your meaning. As a thing of matter, Abstract, do you see yourself as simply a concept - or do you see a physical you...though the physical you barely touches the surface.


Quote :
but given where we are in thought now it seems more beneficial to work out the equations so as to 'science' under the assumption that matter is the base rather then perception.

“Base’ as in physical evidence? Perhaps we 'may' also consider 'perception' as a base - perception as the base under which we tend to adopt our beliefs, for instance, but of course, I'm digressing here probably.

What I meant was the actual reality = base... the true 'thing' that all is made of...
Beautiful swirling atoms? I think that there has to be a zillion 'things' that all is made of. If we ever come to truly know the thing that all is made of - then we might just touch on god...know that which can, in reality, at least for now only be a concept.

Quote :
and who is to say which time perceiver has the 'right' point of view.

There really is no right point of view – it just depends on where you are standing when you are looking.

but if you are standing in the same spot as another and think something else is the right point of view then which is right...?
That's a really good question, Abstract. Not so easy to answer. I suppose that I would say that each individual must move to another location and see what they see, without judging, just seeing what they see. Their perception might change. Carl Jung said that truth needs the concert of many voices. Here truth would need the concert of many different vantage points and perspectives. I suppose that you might also say that the point of view which is correct or more correct would be the one which actually held the most intelligence, logic and validity. But in order to know this, both parties MUST BE interested in knowing the truth - not in proving a point.


Quote :
(perhaps someday they will find that there is no limit to speed but rather that things that go faster then the speed of light simply can't be perceived..by us.. anymore...which might explain why if you are going as fast as light the light beam directed at you from a stand still would still appear as light... because what you are really seeing then is the stuff that was going faster ...)

Is this somehow tied into cause?

Lol.... scratch I have no idea why I said that...
The only reason truly that I asked that question is because I didn't know how to respond. scratch I am not really scientifically inclined though I enjoy science and am very curious about it. The only thing there that came to my mind is how we are still able to see the light from a particular star and don't even realize in that moment that that star may have long ago died out but the light is still reaching us. Smile

Quote :
why if you are going as fast as light the light beam directed at you from a stand still would still appear as light...
Perhaps that would be because if you are going as fast as the speed of light you would have some of the characteristics and qualities, be of the same nature as light and so you would recognize it...no matter how swiftly it was going. We can only recognize that which we are a part of - true? Aside from that...



___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."






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PostSubject: Definitions of life, population/s & health, conspiracies Definitions of life, population/s & health, conspiracies Icon_minitimeSun Feb 05, 2012 7:07 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
(Note from user Capable: this topic was split from the topic "Group ethics & selective "unfitness"", located here)



Aleatory wrote:
Where the black hole of physics is supposedly born from a collapsing star, I theorize our ethical black hole is born from (though now only an incipient form) the collapse of the natural order; an attempted hiatus from aeons of evolutionary engineering, a moratorium from the harsher side-effects of natural selection (or more like double interest but no payments for a century).
Excellent analogy.

But my way is to step over the mountain of past thought, beyond the Sea of turmoil to a place of inevitable future, then mark a path from there back to the present, thus avoiding the need for such mass calamity and horrendous and endless conflict and noise.

Aleatory wrote:
I ask you: Is preserving life inherently good? I’ll neglect the more ambiguous issue of genetic decadence and ask of our burgeoning, soon to be (if not already) turgid, population: what of them? Death, War, Famine and Pestilence: man has systematically domesticated not himself but the four horsemen. This is indeed a black hole that I will need hours to write something I’ll be satisfied with, but let us run through this ethical singularity with a fine-toothed comb and see where we arrive…if you feel so inclined.
Very precisely define exactly what Life is, imagine a means to ensure that such an entity is everlasting in its form, and you will have answered that question.
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PostSubject: Re: Definitions of life, population/s & health, conspiracies Definitions of life, population/s & health, conspiracies Icon_minitimeSun Feb 05, 2012 9:10 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
To stay on population for a moment, I’d like to know your proposition (as I assume you’re well aware that we’re at—or just below—7 billion right now and projected to exceed 10 billion by 2055 and the medical, social, political and economic issues this causes—especially when considering the ubiquitous computerization/mechanization of industry—I’ll spare you the sermon)…how do you plan to combat this, or do you just wait for it to solve itself by running full steam ahead into the growth cap where we can no longer house, employ, provide medical attention for, feed, educate, etc. a substantial (more so than at present) body of the populous? There’s only so many free condoms you can hand out…

But honestly, I’d be very interested to hear some ideas, as most of mine are…not something I’d like to do.

And of life, I think the answer is: Inherently? No. As you pointed out, life is alchemical in that some must be lost for another to gain. So another approach to the question would be that the preservation of life should be regarded discursively, which still is somewhat like contending that the preservation of life isn't inherently good.



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PostSubject: Re: Definitions of life, population/s & health, conspiracies Definitions of life, population/s & health, conspiracies Icon_minitimeSun Feb 05, 2012 9:46 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Aleatory wrote:
To stay on population for a moment, I’d like to know your proposition (as I assume you’re well aware that we’re at—or just below—7 billion right now and projected to exceed 10 billion by 2055 and the medical, social, political and economic issues this causes—especially when considering the ubiquitous computerization/mechanization of industry—I’ll spare you the sermon)…how do you plan to combat this, or do you just wait for it to solve itself by running full steam ahead into the growth cap where we can no longer house, employ, provide medical attention for, feed, educate, etc. a substantial (more so than at present) body of the populous? There’s only so many free condoms you can hand out…

But honestly, I’d be very interested to hear some ideas, as most of mine are…not something I’d like to do.

And of life, I think the answer is: Inherently? No. As you pointed out, life is alchemical in that some must be lost for another to gain. So another approach to the question would be that the preservation of life should be regarded discursively, which still is somewhat like contending that the preservation of life isn't inherently good.
Always take care to consider the False Flag, the over emphasis of a specific possible target/cause so as to request and receive authority to control the situation.

In the 1960's it was clear that the population growth rate was merely 2.5:2.0, 2.5 children per set of parents. Yet the emphasis has been that the population is expanding exponentially at incredible rates and thus.. "we, the government, must institute control measures."

The truth is that every life form on the planet loses incentive toward reproduction as soon as it senses harmony in its life. Cut a branch from a tree that was merely beginning to bud, and the buds suddenly race to complete their endeavor to spawn seed. The threat of death is the more fundamental cause of the urge to reproduce, ask any Nietzschean. Remove the perception of need, and there is no effort to meet. Does a natural creature long for food if it feels no hunger?

Yet look at what has been promoted since the 1960's; sex, promiscuity, sexual rights, father's obligation to pay both the state and the children's mother, government control mechanisms for the rampant sex rage that magically never actually stop it.

So my first comment and note is that you have accepted a "clear and present danger" that is a False Flag, created so as to bring this very conversation of how the government should handle this "emergency".

I have already spelled out my solution. The Constitution of Rational Harmony inherently takes away the incentive to reproduce more than one can manage. And it does it without oppressive government or having to chose who lives or is exterminated for sake of an imagined future utopia under supreme rule.

The government's preferred answer is;
"life is alchemical in that some must be lost for another to gain. So another approach to the question would be that the preservation of life should be regarded discursively, which still is somewhat like contending that the preservation of life isn't inherently good. So what really matters is evolution of the species, our (not your) specifically chosen design of future life"

Lust for Domination, Evolution, and Mutations.

If they cannot see the firmament in the clouds of rampant chaos, they cannot blame it for our reign.
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PostSubject: Re: Definitions of life, population/s & health, conspiracies Definitions of life, population/s & health, conspiracies Icon_minitimeSun Feb 05, 2012 10:07 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Two simple questions in one;

What is the incentive and fears of Eugenics?

A) Incentive - Control of all Life (thus promote the need; "False Flag")
B) Fears - That people will blame us for our designed changes. (thus create a cloud of changes/mutations to hide in)

But then what are the highest notions concerning the "proper Utopian society for Life"?
Socialism/Communism;
Total control of the proletariat by the bourgeoisie - even their genomes.

Health by designation of the State?
Survival of the Fitted?

.
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PostSubject: Re: Definitions of life, population/s & health, conspiracies Definitions of life, population/s & health, conspiracies Icon_minitimeTue Feb 07, 2012 8:59 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I’m skeptical of bringing conspiracy theory into discussion predicated on accurate information, for if we are to take the conspiracy as plausible (any conspiratorial, clandestine, collusive act by the government) all information is rendered as equally true and false and all discussion thus made aleatory, hypothetical and more or less a form of intellectual masturbation. I say this because you are either speaking of just the US (where I am talking of the world) or are implying a ‘world government’. If just the US, I would feel obligated to point out a country whose judicial government is in utter imbroglio over a relatively innocuous issue such as abortion would be the last to enact totalitarian measures of population control—remember the outrage over China’s one-child policy? I'll analyze just the US situation in detail for now. If we are to believe the US government is feeding us nothing but agitprop, that figures from the Census Bureau etc. are wholly false, then by all means we should cease this discussion immediately to avoid otiose banter[1]. If however you think the Census Bureau may have some semblance of accuracy, you may want to read the following paragraph. Otherwise, simply skip to the 3rd and 4th.

2.5 is not a rate deserving of the term ‘merely’. If you have 100 couples, each of which has an average of 2.5 children, your succeeding generation (this hypothetical first group of offspring) will be 250 in number. They follow suit, so your 2nd generation numbers 625. By the 5th generation you’re already at 9765.625. The logistics of demographic predictions are obviously more complex than that: you must incorporate birth rate weighted by infant mortality v. death, emigration v. immigration, life expectancy, etc. almost all of which have inherent margins of error. However, from the CIA’s 2010 numbers, using just the factors listed above, we can generate a relatively accurate figure. A birth rate of 13.5/1,000 weighted by an infant mortality of 6.22 deaths/1,000 live births gives us a birth rate of 13.42/1,000. Subtracting migrants (4.32/1,000), (we’ll add the legally documented immigrants momentarily), and subtracting deaths (8.38/1,000) we still have a positive number (though admittedly small). Multiplying that figure by the 2010 census and adding the legally documented immigrants[2] gives you a ball park estimate of 1,258,746 net additional lives. This is, however, an incomplete analysis. Contrary to what I generated (about .41%) the actual 2010 US growth rate was .97% (2,994,831) —a far cry from the 2.5 you labeled ‘merely’. Still, just under 3 million additional lives in a single year is not to be taken lightly. Extrapolating that rate annually gives us 311,740,369 for 2012; 320,900,292 for 2015; 336,768,831 for 2020; 353,422,072 for 2025; 370,898,816 for 2030; 389,239,786 for 2035; and breaking 400 million in 2038 with 400,676,888 (the US Census Bureau projects 439 million in 2050). That’s at the lowest birth rate in a century. Now when you start to factor in things I’ve already mentioned such as medicinal supplies, the relegation of labor to computerization, housing, sustenance, etc. with a country in economic decline and no signs of improving, this appears as hardly a ‘false flag’.

I’m curious about your contending that life stops reproducing when “it senses harmony in its life.” I can see where you may say this from an angle of ascetic spirituality (we are transcendent, our goal is nirvana and thus we are freed from all burdens of the flesh) but I’m not sure why you think this applies to man and further how this presupposes a ‘natural solution’ to the population issue (you have yet to substantiate your claim that it is merely a false flag, a simulacrum). This issue is compounded by the double articulation of love—its content (emotion) and expres​sion(sex)—wherein the physical expression is deterritorialized, becoming at once both an expression of love and reproduction. My point is that I find it difficult to enlist axiomatics for an inherently discursive, and more over, theoretical position. Because I am not an amoeba, I can’t say if it even has the ability to sense harmony, let alone whether the relative state of such determines my reproductive instinct.

Your addition to my statement that you quoted shows you completely misinterpreted—or vitiated through some application of conspiratorial implications—what I was contending. “So what really matters is evolution of the species, our (not your) specifically chosen design of future life” in no way factors into my point here, and indeed I may note a trend from the reason this thread was made in the first place (to discuss your arguably invective denouncement of a few sentences of mine—to which the applicability of at least two of your objections were predicated on the misinterpretation of my words—in a separate tread dedicated to the tangent topic). The point I was attempting to convey is of the discursive nature of value judgments on something as variable as the multiplicities of life. In other words, that there can be no axiomatic answer to the question “Is it inherently good to preserve a life?”—that every case is incommensurable, digressing for instance to instance, strata to strata—ergo discursive. I say alchemical because life is certainly that. In order for you to continue living, other entities experiencing the qualitative state of life must necessarily forfeit that state.

[1]I tolerate conspiracy theorists about as much as creationist Christians; they’re interesting to listen to for about five minutes but attempting extensive discourse is inadvisable. Point being, your implication of—in the US?—approval of full on eugenics being disseminated surreptitiously, subliminally by the Government just doesn’t coalesce with any trends in the juridico-social infrastructure, unless of course you’d care to provide convincing citations. Now I’m in no way declaring you to be a conspiracy theorist; I’m merely noting an afflux in your ideas.

[2] 1,042,625, Homeland Security, Office of Immigration Statistics: 2010 Yearbook of Immigration Statistics



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Definitions of life, population/s & health, conspiracies Empty
PostSubject: Definitions of life, population/s & health, conspiracies Definitions of life, population/s & health, conspiracies Icon_minitimeTue Feb 07, 2012 9:35 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Aleatory wrote:
I tolerate conspiracy theorists about as much as creationist Christians; they’re interesting to listen to for about five minutes but attempting extensive discourse is inadvisable.
Therein lies the issue. You have already prejudiced your perception. If you didn't do that, you would have seen that in these presented "conspiracy theories", the USA hasn't been the focus at all, merely a point of origin for many aspects. The UK and Israel play a heavy part in that origination, but Iraq was the current center for the DU radiation problem. The GMO displacement of foods is world wide and significant in Europe. Neither can be stopped by political borders.

This issue was raised by Capable's concern of a government healthcare system. Thus it only makes sense to see what a government views as "health". Everything I have presented is strictly focused on that issue. I presented what health actually means in the sense of a harmony of a system, your life. I have now presented only a small portion of what governments around the world have already decided is "the proper state of health". As Bill Gates recently announced, "science has shown us that it is immediately urgent that we substantially reduce the population" even though Science has absolutely no means for actually doing that.

If the population is to be immediately and substantially reduced, it only makes sense that we see by what means it would be reduced "for sake of health". How can you justly ignore conspiracy theory? The truth is that no nation has ever risen without substantial conspiracy being its backbone. In light of the 800,000 agents of Homeland Security legally required to keep all activities secret, how can anyone be dubbed a "conspiracy theorist"? The conspiracy is not only legally required, but very well proven to exist, thus hardly a mere theory. But of course, in the eyes of the intolerant, such obvious facts are at best merely wild guesses because they (you) have no tolerance with which to examine the evidence.

So okay. You don't want to see or hear anything but what you preach. How would this then constitute a "discussion"?

Do you want for me to just accept your statistic of which I am already aware and go along without counterpoint or objection? I am seriously not the guy for that. I am a solution seeker, a "trouble-shooter", seeking resolution to even the most condemning of realities. I don't look for existing dominations with whom I can join, but rather I look for unresolved problems that might have hope.

You are skeptical of conspiracy theories and should be to a degree. I am skeptical of same-ole-same-ole preachings of how all people should go along with this dominating, "lets surrender to our masters" thought.

Frankly, I would have no problem surrendering to those masters if I could find even one of them that seemed to actually understand even WHAT life is, not even hoping that they could comprehend how to manage it to the advantage of life instead of trying to dictate it. Life WILL NOT be dictated, else it is not life.

Life happens to have a rather unique properly, somewhat mystical in that it defies entropy and does so beyond anything else. It does not need to be dictated to by the small minds of men. It will, once cornered, remove those men and go its merry way with or without homosapian. At least Life knows what health means.

So go ahead, preach your speech. But stop asking questions if you don't want the answers.


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PostSubject: Re: Definitions of life, population/s & health, conspiracies Definitions of life, population/s & health, conspiracies Icon_minitimeTue Feb 07, 2012 11:31 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Firstly, if we are to discuss something, please do me the favor of dropping the erroneous presumption on my intentions and your generally bellicose attitude. If you wish to quarrel, I want nothing to do with it. That said I will address each paragraph as a numerical point:

I) Who is it precisely that you are addressing? To my knowledge, I have yet to comment on depleted uranium.

II) DU ammunition is not a statement on various governments definition of health. It’s a statement of myopic/unethical wartime practices.

III) I said nothing of immediate reduction of the population. What I think are necessary are methods to reduce the rate of growth.

IV) I clearly state that I would like you to instantiate your points. My objection is not to another perspective but to one that is composed only of claims with no supporting evidence provided. I’m asking you to give me a reason to believe that what you’re saying is accurate. Is that wrong to ask of a discussion?

V) If you’re already aware of the Census Bureau’s statistics and you find that evidence inadmissible to the point of labeling the issue of population growth as a false flag, then I have no evidence to back my claims with and thus any point I make would be pure conjecture. Because I entertain some semblance of intellectual honesty, I’m not going to contend a point on something as paramount as this issue is on pure conjecture. I asked for solutions and you said “there’s no problem”.

VI) Again with the straw man—and I cringe to have to use that term. What exactly is “same-ole-same-ole” about what I am saying, and where am I talking of dominating? Sure, I’ve mentioned some possible methods that could be accurately construed as dominating, but I in know way extolled them; quite the contrary.

VII) I’m not sure where this “master” issue applies to what I’m talking about.

VIII) Please provide some sort of comprehensible exegesis here.

IX) Refer to the last sentence of section V.








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PostSubject: Poseidon Poseidon Icon_minitimeFri Apr 06, 2012 2:41 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
: - I am in te middle of the dark, and see the point of light - they are floating in the dark and see only mist. This is gravity, without which no spirit or lightness. And without them no gravity - what is escaping from the self except an invitation to the self?

How can we talk to ourselves, without making errors at the crucial moments? Belief is broken in knowledge. To see the picture in its source, to know the mind of the spectator, to radicalize desire into belief, faith, will towards - x. To steer away from the treacherous shallows into the stability of the wave, the tides, the rhythm of greatness. Poseidon is of all the Gods the greatest as he knows no bounds but his own boundlessness, he can create continents inside of him and be a threat to them, but he can not win their sympathy. Only those who seek to die through the limit of the animal selves into the vast expanse of the unexpected, so set sail, accumulate wind, expect - speculate - trust - that the unexpected is more substantial than the expected. Truth, awaited, received in bounty.

Science must submit to this science knowing that discovery is the apprehension of the not formerly apprehended - not therefore projected, expected. The scientist aims at the horizon, knowing that land will appear. He is also methodical in his perceptions and dynamic, polarizing in his conclusions. His aim is not to synthesize concepts but to make synthesis possible at a calculated instance of teleological tyranny. The image of the goal - the known goal - a deeply miserable prospect is all the dying science is driven towards -- ever more absurd, ever deeper obvious, almost equal, gone. What remains is the scientist and his horizon.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: The Philosophers

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:37 pm

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PostSubject: What can we know from scratch? What can we know from scratch? Icon_minitimeFri Apr 06, 2012 2:49 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Assumed "We", "know" "from" "void"
"what?" is not necessarily the question.



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PostSubject: Re: What can we know from scratch? What can we know from scratch? Icon_minitimeSun Apr 08, 2012 1:41 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
Assumed "We", "know" "from" "void"
"what?" is not necessarily the question.

Perhaps "why not?" is the question? Very Happy



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"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: What can we know from scratch? What can we know from scratch? Icon_minitimeMon Apr 09, 2012 3:01 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
Assumed "We", "know" "from" "void"
"what?" is not necessarily the question.
So, what can we know from 'scratch' assuming we know from 'void'?
Is this the way your question would run?
Are you asking in terms of a tabula rasa and an empty space or emptiness?



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PostSubject: Re: What can we know from scratch? What can we know from scratch? Icon_minitimeFri May 25, 2012 3:32 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
Assumed "We", "know" "from" "void"
"what?" is not necessarily the question.

"From scratch" we would probably only have the briefest self-sense of the knowledge's own faculties and methods of knowing; these methods interacting with "nothing" or next to nothing would revert to mere proprioceptive self-registry.

Then again this might be "intuition".

And absent subjects into which methods of knowledge might flex and practice, these methods would not really have any knowledge of themselves, or anything else, even void, until they had build up a sufficient knowledge-base, by trial and error, against which the possibility of void, and consequently also of direct self-expression and encounter could be set, or at least inferenced.


So maybe:

1. total ignorance, blindness, absence
2. barest self-registry as self-sense, groping, feeling
3. "light", colorless, undifferentiated
4. colorization of light, subtlization and differentiation based on crude formulae of division
5. increasing subtlization, sufficient substantial juxtaposition and capacity to infer quality from the mere quantity of the self-sense as proprioceptive self-registry
6. increasing knowledge and increasing self-encounter... eventually leading to equation of the one with the other






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PostSubject: The value of provocation The value of provocation Icon_minitimeFri Jun 01, 2012 6:05 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
What is the value of provocation, in the realm of theory, political discussion or engagement, rational argument, philosophy writing and publication, whatever?



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I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

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PostSubject: Re: The value of provocation The value of provocation Icon_minitimeSat Jun 30, 2012 8:47 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
What is the value of provocation, in the realm of theory, political discussion or engagement, rational argument, philosophy writing and publication, whatever?

I wonder if the value would be the same, depending on the motive[s] of the provocateur?
Does the end ever justify the means? At first glance, I am never quite sure of that and my response is usually a 'no'. Why?
Because I intuit that at times our 'justifications' are simply our perceptions, or our own desires to view things in a particular way and act on them, which may serve our own purposes but not necessarily that of the other person.
So ultimately, I feel that the value would depend, would have to depend 'ethically speaking', on the perception of the individual or entity being provoked; for example, as in hindsight, one coming to realize that the provocation produced/bore good fruit and growth to the person, despite what the intentions of the provocateur might have been. In other words, a curse becoming a blessing...or as I like to put it...making lemonade out of lemons.

So, some value in provocation might be in finding truth; creating reality out of illusion; giving the momentum and the courage to an otherwise fearful person, to stand up for him/her -self, thus learning self-value and worth; transformation out of chaos; opening up a mind which has been a steel trap to explore and discover new realms of thought; shedding light in a dark place; fighting the establishment and winning for the common good of all....

which all may come down to personal human evolution and enlightenment and perhaps the same for society...but not necessarily because of but in spite of the provocation or at least the motives for it.
But as with anything, provocation is a double-edged sword. It may be as fruitlessly destructive as it might be creatively fruitful.

Edited on June 3, 2012









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PostSubject: Three Kinds of People Three Kinds of People Icon_minitimeSat Jan 28, 2012 12:17 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
There are three basic types of people: the Tyrants, the Adventurers, and the Sheep.

Tyrants seek to establish what they decide they will get established.

Adventurers seek to react to situations, and have a taste for situations.

Sheep survive, and do so much better when they adopt pastors, or complicated industrialized systems of control.

And, as Nietzsche so kindly pointed out, there probably doesn't exist a person that doesn't have each to some degree.

Hell, they are probably evolutionary mechanisms of behavior that have different triggers, like who ends up in what position of a dog pack.
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PostSubject: Re: Three Kinds of People Three Kinds of People Icon_minitimeWed Feb 01, 2012 2:15 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Pezer wrote:
There are three basic types of people: the Tyrants, the Adventurers, and the Sheep.

Tyrants seek to establish what they decide they will get established.

Adventurers seek to react to situations, and have a taste for situations.

Sheep survive, and do so much better when they adopt pastors, or complicated industrialized systems of control.

And, as Nietzsche so kindly pointed out, there probably doesn't exist a person that doesn't have each to some degree.

Hell, they are probably evolutionary mechanisms of behavior that have different triggers, like who ends up in what position of a dog pack.

Interesting breakdown. I like your middle distinction between sheep and tyrant, the "adventurer": someone who wants to experience life, situations, occasions, new experiences, who finds themselves most in reacting to novelty. A type that does not desire power over others nor expressly desire escape from the powers of others over him or herself. To the adventurer, survival might not be as important as the quality of life lived, risky experiences are justified because they are adventurous, they bring thrill, novelty, new possibilities (unlike the sheep, for which risk and even novelty is a thing constantly to be avoided).


I have my own breakdown of "types of people..." that I tend to think of: that there are two types of people, those who see and directly know the power and reality of thought/consciousness, and those who do not. Those people who see thought, affect, indeed all internal subjective experience as substantially real and practically powerful in its own right, and those people who tend to not see this or who see thought/feeling/consciousness as less-than-totally-real, or subservient to an "actual reality" that is more materialist-physical. I would classify writers, poets, philosophers in the first category, and (most) scientists and most "average" people in the latter.



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You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Three Kinds of People Three Kinds of People Icon_minitimeWed Feb 01, 2012 2:55 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Pezer wrote:
There are three basic types of people: the Tyrants, the Adventurers, and the Sheep.

Tyrants seek to establish what they decide they will get established.

Adventurers seek to react to situations, and have a taste for situations.

Sheep survive, and do so much better when they adopt pastors, or complicated industrialized systems of control.

And, as Nietzsche so kindly pointed out, there probably doesn't exist a person that doesn't have each to some degree.

Hell, they are probably evolutionary mechanisms of behavior that have different triggers, like who ends up in what position of a dog pack.

Interesting breakdown. I like your middle distinction between sheep and tyrant, the "adventurer": someone who wants to experience life, situations, occasions, new experiences, who finds themselves most in reacting to novelty. A type that does not desire power over others nor expressly desire escape from the powers of others over him or herself. To the adventurer, survival might not be as important as the quality of life lived, risky experiences are justified because they are adventurous, they bring thrill, novelty, new possibilities (unlike the sheep, for which risk and even novelty is a thing constantly to be avoided).


I have my own breakdown of "types of people..." that I tend to think of: that there are two types of people, those who see and directly know the power and reality of thought/consciousness, and those who do not. Those people who see thought, affect, indeed all internal subjective experience as substantially real and practically powerful in its own right, and those people who tend to not see this or who see thought/feeling/consciousness as less-than-totally-real, or subservient to an "actual reality" that is more materialist-physical. I would classify writers, poets, philosophers in the first category, and (most) scientists and most "average" people in the latter.

The adventurer may have any number of moral codes, so novelty of feeling is isn't everything. There is a code to uphold, out of respect for the gods. The tyrant can also have any number of their own moral codes and, of course, sheep.

The "types" are descriptions of goals, wants, "wills."
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PostSubject: Re: Three Kinds of People Three Kinds of People Icon_minitimeMon Feb 06, 2012 3:49 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Pezer wrote:
There are three basic types of people: the Tyrants, the Adventurers, and the Sheep.

Tyrants seek to establish what they decide they will get established.

Adventurers seek to react to situations, and have a taste for situations.

Sheep survive, and do so much better when they adopt pastors, or complicated industrialized systems of control.

And, as Nietzsche so kindly pointed out, there probably doesn't exist a person that doesn't have each to some degree.

Hell, they are probably evolutionary mechanisms of behavior that have different triggers, like who ends up in what position of a dog pack.
What about the Individual him/her -self?
Do you see no human beings as individuals who listen to and follow their own calling - who march to an entirely different drummer than that of others? I would, in actuality, say that your above three - all react to situations.
The individual, on the other hand, chooses to create his own situations and thus responds accordingly...although I suppose one could say that the tyrant, the adventurer and the sheep also create their own situations but it is the motivation/intent which separates them from the individual. The tyrant seeks to gain power and control over others and to abuse; the adventurer seeks to defy and transcend death's meaning by 'diving' into life (not such a negativething of course) and the sheep seeks to surrender his will and autonomy by creating a scenario in which he is helpless but also gains delusional strength by attaching himself to the herd.

The tyrant...the adventurer...and the sheep ....is this where evolution has brought us to? Do you see any other categories of people?

And those 'triggers' themselves - these are what we need to always be consciously aware of. Our instincts are wonderful and work for us as tools when they are in harmony with our intelligence and rightful intentions.



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Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

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PostSubject: Re: Three Kinds of People Three Kinds of People Icon_minitimeMon Feb 06, 2012 4:32 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Pezer...

Quote :
The tyrant can also have any number of their own moral codes and, of course, sheep.
Could the tyrant live by what can be considered a 'moral' code - doesn't moral imply what is just and right? Or does he simply live by what satisfies his own needs/desires for power? Wouldn't that, in itself, conflict with a sense of morality?

The sheep may or may not have their own moral code - but I would say that it is usually built into what is good for the herd - and according to its beliefs and that may or may not necessarily in itself be moral either. Am I wrong?




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Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Three Kinds of People Three Kinds of People Icon_minitimeMon Feb 06, 2012 4:58 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
VaerosTanarg wrote:
Pezer wrote:
There are three basic types of people: the Tyrants, the Adventurers, and the Sheep.

Tyrants seek to establish what they decide they will get established.

Adventurers seek to react to situations, and have a taste for situations.

Sheep survive, and do so much better when they adopt pastors, or complicated industrialized systems of control.

And, as Nietzsche so kindly pointed out, there probably doesn't exist a person that doesn't have each to some degree.

Hell, they are probably evolutionary mechanisms of behavior that have different triggers, like who ends up in what position of a dog pack.
What about the Individual him/her -self?
Do you see no human beings as individuals who listen to and follow their own calling - who march to an entirely different drummer than that of others? I would, in actuality, say that your above three - all react to situations.
The individual, on the other hand, chooses to create his own situations and thus responds accordingly...although I suppose one could say that the tyrant, the adventurer and the sheep also create their own situations but it is the motivation/intent which separates them from the individual. The tyrant seeks to gain power and control over others and to abuse; the adventurer seeks to defy and transcend death's meaning by 'diving' into life (not such a negativething of course) and the sheep seeks to surrender his will and autonomy by creating a scenario in which he is helpless but also gains delusional strength by attaching himself to the herd.

The tyrant...the adventurer...and the sheep ....is this where evolution has brought us to? Do you see any other categories of people?

And those 'triggers' themselves - these are what we need to always be consciously aware of. Our instincts are wonderful and work for us as tools when they are in harmony with our intelligence and rightful intentions.

The person you are describing sounds like a mix between tyrant and adventurer, but tyrant at the core. It is a missunderstanding of these categories to think that a tyrant seeks to "abuse." A tyrant seeks only to impose.
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PostSubject: Re: Three Kinds of People Three Kinds of People Icon_minitimeMon Feb 06, 2012 5:01 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
VaerosTanarg wrote:
Pezer...

Quote :
The tyrant can also have any number of their own moral codes and, of course, sheep.
Could the tyrant live by what can be considered a 'moral' code - doesn't moral imply what is just and right? Or does he simply live by what satisfies his own needs/desires for power? Wouldn't that, in itself, conflict with a sense of morality?

The sheep may or may not have their own moral code - but I would say that it is usually built into what is good for the herd - and according to its beliefs and that may or may not necessarily in itself be moral either. Am I wrong?


Give me some time to answer these questions on morality, which is a very complex issue.
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PostSubject: Re: Three Kinds of People Three Kinds of People Icon_minitimeMon Feb 06, 2012 8:34 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I've been thinking about it and this is a good list. However, it is important to note that it is only a narrow slice of the unfathomable pie of human psychology.
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PostSubject: Re: Three Kinds of People Three Kinds of People Icon_minitimeTue Feb 07, 2012 3:37 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Quote :
The person you are describing sounds like a mix between tyrant and adventurer, but tyrant at the core. It is a missunderstanding of these categories to think that a tyrant seeks to "abuse." A tyrant seeks only to impose.
So...what I described the 'individual' as being was....

Do you see no human beings as individuals who listen to and follow their own calling - who march to an entirely different drummer than that of others? I would, in actuality, say that your above three - all react to situations.

The individual, on the other hand, chooses to create his own situations and thus responds accordingly

Well, I suppose that you do have a point there. Without other criteria, these words might ALSO describe a tyrant. A 'real' individual in my book though would ALSO live by a certain code of ethics in which to the best of his/her ability, no harm would be done to others. But one must put 'ethical individual' there.

But I don't understand why you would think such an individual, without the word 'ethical' in there, would necessarily have to be a 'tyrant to the core'. What do you base that on? Doesn't the fact that the individual marches to an entirely different drummer than others presuppose that he is not a tyrant? Tyrants march to the same drummer as many others - they just march as the leader of the pack, the herd. Could a tyrant BE one without his mindless herd? A real individual needs no herd - a tyrant does...though a real individual, as a human being, obviously desires the company of others who live within the same spirit of life and meaning as he/she does. There is a difference between solidarity and the herd mentality.

Quote :
A tyrant seeks only to impose.
And you see nothing abusive about that? At the very least, it borders on abuse, at least in my book.

An individual, and an ethical one at that, senses and knows the value of free will and autonomy within self - and so chooses not to impose his/her will on others - simply seeks understanding and harmony with others - which is not an imposition - unless taken to another level and forced.

But I will agree with you on this point - it is within all of our capacity to become as a tyrant n particular moments or situations - if we are not careful and conscious of ourselves. It is not always an easy thing to allow, to live and to let live and to let go. But I think that unless we strive to live this way, we lose the freedom which we ourselves seek.



___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel


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PostSubject: Re: Three Kinds of People Three Kinds of People Icon_minitimeTue Feb 07, 2012 3:54 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Pezer wrote:
I've been thinking about it and this is a good list. However, it is important to note that it is only a narrow slice of the unfathomable pie of human psychology.
A narrow slice...more like a little corner of the most vast galaxy in the universe. But I agree with you, as human beings, we are unfathomable, and it is so important to discover, to come to know just what we are capable of - morally and immorally speaking that is. We are capable of being so corruptible and even the best of us; for instance, the missionary, the crusader, the teacher, the saint...to simply name a few ...anyone, could become, by nature of his/her humanity and lack of understanding and self-exploration and transcendence, a tyrant.



___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Three Kinds of People Three Kinds of People Icon_minitimeTue Feb 07, 2012 6:43 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
You missunderstand my use of the word tyrant. I don't mean it as a literal allusion to being a political tyrant of a country, I mean it as a psychological type.

An individual that makes his own rules and allways follows them is a tyrant because he is imposing his will on himself.

Not "to the core," "at his core."
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PostSubject: Re: Three Kinds of People Three Kinds of People Icon_minitimeWed Feb 08, 2012 3:48 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Pezer wrote:
You missunderstand my use of the word tyrant. I don't mean it as a literal allusion to being a political tyrant of a country, I mean it as a psychological type.

An individual that makes his own rules and allways follows them is a tyrant because he is imposing his will on himself.

Not "to the core," "at his core."
I understand what you're saying now but I personally would not use the word 'tyrant' in this way. Aside from having a negative connotation, I don't think it portrays the above individual in his 'real' light. But it might just be me.

An individual can live by a certain code and not digress from that code (perhaps except in extreme circumstances) but the only way he becomes a tyrant to self is if his self-imposing will causes him to become miserable because of it; deprives him of his joy and doesn't allow for change ever. What comes to mind here is one who has an over-the-top extreme sense of duty. I may be wrong, but I sense that this person is a bit of a masochist...and one's own enemy. And truth to tell, I think that one who is so hard on himself will ultimately be hard on others. As we treat ourselves, we treat others - and vica versa. Smile I learned that somewhere along the way. And then that tyranny is not simply self-imposed.




___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Three Kinds of People Three Kinds of People Icon_minitimeWed Feb 08, 2012 8:34 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The 3 kinds of people are actually just those who can count and those who can't.
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PostSubject: Re: Three Kinds of People Three Kinds of People Icon_minitimeWed Feb 08, 2012 5:29 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
James S Saint wrote:
The 3 kinds of people are actually just those who can count and those who can't.

Nono there's ten, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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PostSubject: Re: Three Kinds of People Three Kinds of People Icon_minitimeThu Feb 09, 2012 2:49 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Nono.. it is "those who count and those who don't"
..it's a socialist thing. Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: Three Kinds of People Three Kinds of People Icon_minitimeTue Aug 28, 2012 2:26 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster


You forgot the fourth kind of person. The Solitary. He doesn't seek to impose his laws on others, nor does he respect the laws of others. Why try to make slaves out of beasts that cannot perform the tasks you would want performed, that cannot live up to your standard? He doesn't seek out new experiences or dangers either, and cares not for adventure. He doesn't like the herd, so he avoids it. Mostly just because he doesn't like their stink, and also because he simply enjoys being with himself more than he enjoys being with others. Unlike Nietzsche's Zarathustra, he never goes down from his mountain. Why? People come up to him, of their own accord. And he graciously offers to them some of his riches, simply because it amuses him that someone would actually make it to him and be able to scale the mountain by themselves.






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in formis perisseia mutilata in omnia perisarkos mutilatum;
omniformis protosseia immutilatum in protosarkos immutilata.

[ The Ecstasies of Zosimos, Tablet
the First.]

BTHYS TOU ANAHAT KHYA-PANDEMAI.


-- Hermaedion, in: the Liber Endumiaskia.
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PostSubject: Re: Three Kinds of People Three Kinds of People Icon_minitimeThu Aug 30, 2012 6:07 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Parodites wrote:


You forgot the fourth kind of person. The Solitary. He doesn't seek to impose his laws on others, nor does he respect the laws of others. Why try to make slaves out of beasts that cannot perform the tasks you would want performed, that cannot live up to your standard? He doesn't seek out new experiences or dangers either, and cares not for adventure. He doesn't like the herd, so he avoids it. Mostly just because he doesn't like their stink, and also because he simply enjoys being with himself more than he enjoys being with others. Unlike Nietzsche's Zarathustra, he never goes down from his mountain. Why? People come up to him, of their own accord. And he graciously offers to them some of his riches, simply because it amuses him that someone would actually make it to him and be able to scale the mountain by themselves.

It is almost as if here is described wisdom itself.
But what does such a solitary do if he is, like Zarathustra became after a long solitude, overfull?



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PostSubject: Re: Three Kinds of People Three Kinds of People Icon_minitimeThu Aug 30, 2012 10:31 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Ferment, like all over-ripened fruit.



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ΑΝΤΗΡΟΠΑΡΙΟΝ,
in formis perisseia mutilata in omnia perisarkos mutilatum;
omniformis protosseia immutilatum in protosarkos immutilata.

[ The Ecstasies of Zosimos, Tablet
the First.]

BTHYS TOU ANAHAT KHYA-PANDEMAI.


-- Hermaedion, in: the Liber Endumiaskia.
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PostSubject: Re: Three Kinds of People Three Kinds of People Icon_minitimeThu Aug 30, 2012 10:38 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
If he needs the consolation, if he suffers from over-ripeness and excess vitality, he can always take consolation in the thought of the eternal.


" One of the greatest antidotes to the scruples and the sufferings of conscience is the thought of things of eternal significance, or what we call “wisdom.” Indeed, if human wisdom requires its sanction on the earth, as all other things do, I would have to find it in the fact that it is perhaps the sweetest drop of ambrosia yet to be squeezed from the poppy bud of mortal esperance, and constitutes that profound sleep of heart and soul which every promising case of genius requires if it is not to perish of its doubts, skepticism, and indecisiveness. Should a philosopher then presume to bear the truth? Not in the sense that he should aim to speak the truth for the truth’s sake. He should aim only to entreat such promising cases to the picture of what is, was, and must be, to the image of the eternal and of truth, for they will need such an image in which to repose from the contests and the avarice of the perishing and of chance, as well as from the promises of their own nature, which are heavy pains upon their conscience." -- Hamartia




" Let us bear our witness to man, who is in death given but a loam of dirt to mark his grave which, even if this loam of dirt be the whole earth, makes little difference; man, whose seminal were by Adam communicated but to the grave, from which his sad progeny only can be reckoned. Death's the rounded vault and bright company the course of life does trace, that solitude and lone star attenuate. It is the living but are the exiled, bereft and deserted, and death the great repatriation; old sheol were our only promised land. Let us look at what a frail and trembling, naked, creature he is, or this human will, this so strange a thing, which for us aims to resolution of all the quandaried aspect of our passion. There is little sympathy between our passions and our acts; man's passions are too powerful to be translated into his actions, and man's actions, alas, too powerful to be comprehended by the heart. Love forever dawns, and it no morning knows; in the barren womb of thoughts, our passions die before they're ever born, quenched in the very fire that gave them life.

All mark themselves with their own flame, and the sign of Cain were properly in our own hand, for all that we began in tentative advances ends up a confession, and all confession quickly runs to thoughtless repetition. The image of man is offered by the philosophers and saints as the image of all the universe's struggle, and yet it is but a splintered icon of the mute striving that can be read in living creation, and so blear and ruined an image! Yet, we must admit, of the infinite still high emblem, and immortality. One ruined fragment does repose in our glad youth, to which the knowledge of love belongs, and but one more conferred to the heart aged and pensive, which discovers reverence and pious worship. Yet, when we these thus repair, we find the one's truth proves the other's falsity, one's sickly vice the other's justice. Man is not the measure of all things, and man is not even the measure of man. In the clement modesty of the nightingale at song of which Ovid, Keats, Ruth, and so many others told, I find a still better compass of the world; that strain without answer or chorus, and well-instanced requiem for each starveling era, stanchless of its heroes and romances, but forever sated with his lonesome call." -- Till Hope Creates.



___________
ΑΝΤΗΡΟΠΑΡΙΟΝ,
in formis perisseia mutilata in omnia perisarkos mutilatum;
omniformis protosseia immutilatum in protosarkos immutilata.

[ The Ecstasies of Zosimos, Tablet
the First.]

BTHYS TOU ANAHAT KHYA-PANDEMAI.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: The Philosophers

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:01 pm

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Re: The Philosophers

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:47 pm

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PostSubject: Love for Humanity Love for Humanity Icon_minitimeMon Sep 16, 2013 10:39 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
As being the only species that tells stories. No, there are stories in the birdsong, the collective harmony is no doubt a narration of their physiological memory. In this sense we are one large flock, and our coherence is chanted through the fibers, as I watch Walter White arrive at the old Indian's house and know that all people who know this guy are affected by the same event that just transpired. Cinema is not dead, it has just shifted shape. Stories have gotten bigger - to the archlength of Homeric episodes. But the Gods are made invisible. So that they can be revealed only in acts.
This is good. A beginning of an epistemic space where coherent ethics no longer serves to captivate. Character study necessarily requires this psychoanalytical unraveling, of a man, a city, a football team, a crime outfit, an advertising agency or an undertaker family, so really, a film is never a truly comprehensive epistle.

All films were trailers.

I love those people who can commit to a story and finish it.



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PostSubject: Re: Love for Humanity Love for Humanity Icon_minitimeMon Sep 16, 2013 11:19 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
So what is film? It is not the unraveling or making of a life, because it only captures a few phases in the life of the people involved. It does not suffer climax after climax after climax to end up in a place where no one had expected anything to ever go. What can it do best? This is clear suddenly: the unreal, the "ray pattern", the trip, that which does not expose itself in every direction but is itself a direction. Film points somewhere. The Sopranos does not point to anything at all. It's in the end self-contained, clear enough from the beginning, but clearer in the end. It was not even necessary to film an ending.

It is fitting that the road out of nihilism (which as far as American pop culture was concerned started in 1977, as Star Wars changed the market of the erotic imagination from the death drive to a moral glorification of the Universe and its cosmic child, man, "Skywalker"; Zeus-progeny) is such a very apparent deception - a projection that is seen to fate in and out - means of "deception" (creation of an emotional value where there is no practical ground to attain it yet), the justified means of life affirming politics.

It arose out of the most favorable conditions man had known since ancient Greece - Coastal wine country in the richest nation in human history.



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PostSubject: Re: Love for Humanity Love for Humanity Icon_minitimeMon Sep 16, 2013 11:59 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The next step in this process is to affirm the Earth in a practical sense. This means not simply dwelling and thinking, but also fighting and scheming, suffering and corrupting. The new series are a getting into the grit of sociology, man is coming to learn of himself in ways that had (or so writers of shows I admire say) been unthinkable before this kill.



It's in a sense the reversal of the moral code set in by Star Wars. From the optimism of the straight line to the cynicism of the full circle, a ground of tragedy where "great style" is possible.

I'm sure there have been some moments of what Nietzsche meant by this term by now. The only road out of nihilism is by positing the future as a forbidden realm, visible and attainable.





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PostSubject: I Hate My View I Hate My View Icon_minitimeThu Oct 03, 2013 7:15 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I hate that if I look out the window, I see about two hundred other windows.
I hate that I feel like drawing the curtains when it's dark, because my desk faces outside.
I want my desk to face hillsides, an ocean, a valley, or Central Park -

This city is so tiny. Most cities are so tiny.

The best view I've ever had was on the 33rd floor of a Lower Manhattan apartment facing south.
The second best view was from a bedroom I once had, a balcony window from a villa on a slight hill in Tuscany.

I'm thinking what else. Mostly crammed-in city. I don't even want to think about how much this has influenced my attitude.

No, wait - my child room - it was in a street facing the other side of that street, but it was on top of the house, above the houses opposite. But I always had my curtain drawn! The sun came in too brightly, I could not watch tv, play my nintendo, later edit my movies.

But then in summer I was outside most of the time. My game was my view.








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PostSubject: Homeland Homeland Icon_minitimeSat Oct 05, 2013 2:25 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I just finished the first season. This is disturbing to me, more so even than the black mirror episode I saw, the one with the pig. This creeps up on you. Modernity in its violent complexities.

I had no idea Claire Danes was such an awesome actress. I liked her in Romeo & Juliet, but hadn't heard from her since. This is the most interesting female performance I've seen in any of these HBO type series and the male lead gives a true portrait of religion.

It does something to my brain, very physically.




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PostSubject: Inloved Inloved Icon_minitimeSun Oct 20, 2013 7:31 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
In Spanish, we call the kind of love that leads to romance being inloved. This much more practical for being precice term tells us right away that we are trapping ourselves.




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PostSubject: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 10:02 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I woke up this morning.

I think eating too much meat is not something man has evolved to do effectively...and consuming too much animal product leads to disease because our digestive systems evolved in more austere environments.

But then again, I just might be a closet carnivore who hates meat-eaters because they intimidate me.
I eat my meat in secret, and I hate myself because of this secret passion of mine.



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PostSubject: Re: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 10:04 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
A bitch I hooked up with last night is coming over to cook and clean for me.
I promised her a bit of crack.

Yeaup...I'm a ladies man, and you wish you were I.



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PostSubject: Re: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 10:06 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I'm a philosopher.
I know Game Theory, Existentialism, Ontology, Metaphysics, Stoicism, Perspectivism, and many other words associated with academic philosophizing.

I dare you to prove I am not a philosopher.
I don't read books, but I've heard the words.

And the ladies luv me.



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PostSubject: Re: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 10:10 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Really, I assure you, no one gives a fuck.



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PostSubject: Re: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 10:12 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Really, I assure you, no one gives a fuck.
How dare you sir.
Why so jealous, homey?



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PostSubject: Re: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 1:08 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I took a nap....got up, emptied a bottle of Metaxa and had a burger.



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PostSubject: Re: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 3:27 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Did you ever make wine?



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PostSubject: Re: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 3:28 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I woke up this morning as well. How interesting is that.
There was a whole month where there were only mornings I went to sleep.



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PostSubject: Re: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 3:47 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
Did you ever make wine?
Are you joking...I'm drunk, or high, half the time. I post on these forums only when I'm pissed...'cause I'm cool, and modern, and...happy.
I drink to deal with my latent homosexuality....it helps me endure the penis up my rectum which I....luuuuuv, by the way.

THIS is philosophy, my friend...this is what your kind has made of it.
THIS is who YOU are.

When speaking on a subject you are made uncomfortable, go for the personal, sexual, insinuation....like a good little whore.
I've seen it happen a hundred times...in a dozen different, so called, "philosophy" forums, populated with simpletons with large vocabularies, good intentions, and tiny little cowardly minds.

You should be ashamed but I'm not holding my breathe...so why should I not toy with you, as I've done with others on your level in the past?
It usually gets me banned.
They must protect the weak....who instigate what they cannot deal with...underestimating their adversary....just, like, you, did.
Or haven't you heard of Satyr, turd?
Abusing me, you see, you stupid turd, like you did with your little comment, is acceptable, making snide little insinuating personal comments is acceptable...but if I reciprocate, I'm the one who is compensating, or ill, or aggressive, a bully no less.

See, I have to tolerate imbeciles, like you....not because you have something interesting to contribute to my awareness, but just because you were born, you are of the human species, you speak English, and you have an opinion.
Isn't respect, and love, deserved?

I hope that one morning you REALLY wake up.
That you use a Hellenic symbol as your avatar is embarrassing.

Are you or are you not going to suck my cock, you bitch?!
Because you exposed yourself as just another bitch...and I'm going to treat you exactly like you want me to.
Tell me about Greek man-boy love and how you want to taste that forbidden fruit....because there's nothing wrong with it - just another life choice.

Choose well.
Play with me boy...tell me I'm a homophobe.
Be creative.



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PostSubject: Re: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 4:23 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I did underestimate your ambition to assert yourself. I always overestimate your ability to say anything.
Of course you want to get banned, that's the only form of acknowledgement you know.




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PostSubject: Re: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 4:25 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
See how easy it it to understand me?

Only four words to remember:
Sexist....Racist....Homophobe and ...afraid.

Ambition?
You asked for it...I deliver.
Nobody loves me...I get no attention...you've gor me pegged, turd.

This is the only "philosophy" I can expect from minds like yours.
I squeeze what I can get from a rock.

Please...do go on.



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PostSubject: Re: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 5:00 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
"Sexist....Racist....Homophobe and ...afraid."

Not noticed any of the first three - just a bit of self-loathing.
Afraid? Of what?
You have nothing to lose.




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PostSubject: Re: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 5:01 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I'm still not entirely convinced he isn't some sort of bot.



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PostSubject: Re: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 5:01 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Well he is, but a human one. He's as neurotic as to be virtually electronic though.



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PostSubject: Re: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 5:02 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Hm… yes.

I recommend not wasting any further time on a merely broken machine.



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Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 5:03 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
…at least until that machine demonstrates some signs of sentience or intelligence.



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Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 5:03 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
My daddy was a machine...my mother flesh and blood.
I'm a hybrid...and that is why I hate myself.
I knew hate was in there somewhere.

It miraculously always comes up when speaking with simpletons like Fixed.
It was part of me being in the closet.

Oh well.



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PostSubject: Re: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 5:31 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
That was a bit disappointing. More predictable than I wished to predict.



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PostSubject: Re: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 5:44 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I banned him and Lyssa, they're the same. I had hoped for at least a little bit of substance to go with the enthusiasm.
In any case I consider my social experiment at ILP to be successful - in the face of Satyrs lies I feel I have to assert this again. I am sure that he did come here on account of my crack-talk to Smears.



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PostSubject: Re: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 7:01 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Bitches be installing cabinets... shit. I find this a befitting name for the author of a "what are you doing" thread. We can delete what's obscene (as I deleted his photo and changed his name) but I'd like to keep the thread as a reminder of this experiment with Smears.

Seriously, I make a couple of threads about Smears and crack, then this guy comes posting about crack in a copy of the Smears thread in which I put part of that satire. Playing the goat and stirring the sheep, this is what happens. I don't think God was playing dice here.






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PostSubject: Re: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 7:27 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I've been drinking coca cola during this charade and there's no clarity in my mind yet about whether there's any value at all in keeping this little piece of theatre on the forum and certainly not whether or not Mr. Oikos is a good name. I do like "Modern Greek", the what are you doing thread, and the fact that there are certain power struggles between forums and combined points of reference - like for example, the KT hierarchy structure is copied from Sauwelios old Nietzsche forum. He got banned, of course, but saw the merit.

"Bless Satyr" would be an obscenity, but to at least affirm his existence as part of the eternally recurring world in which all this philosophizing drama unfolds is possible.

Become awake
and chop the heads of these snakes
That's better off than dying
in a pit full of snakes
The snake inside yourself that
be the first head you take



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PostSubject: Re: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 11:25 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Christ you guys are pussies.

One day of KTS and you ban 2 of the Prytanes. Plus you were so sore you needed to expend some of that frustration by some superficial vandalism of Satyr's profile.

Have you got nothing else, you dickless faggots? No arguments, no rebuttals, no comebacks? Only banishment?

Same turds floatin around, different toiletbowl.

Very disappointed, fellas. I was expecting more... Before The Flight.
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PostSubject: Re: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? Icon_minitimeWed Jan 22, 2014 1:22 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Ehm... you're disappointed?






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PostSubject: Re: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? Icon_minitimeWed Jan 22, 2014 1:27 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable - you're right, a straightforward purge is more sanitary.



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PostSubject: Re: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? Icon_minitimeWed Jan 22, 2014 1:33 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes.

But I'm perhaps naive to have expected more from apaosha, at least.



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PostSubject: Re: What are you Doing? What are you Doing? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Jan 22, 2014 1:34 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Anyone who feels wrongly banned can make a new username and try again. I have no problem with that.

Many second chances are needed on the hard road to truth.



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PostSubject: About the other place About the other place Icon_minitimeWed Dec 26, 2012 3:14 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The horoscope of the site suggests such a duality – a Mars-Pluto conjunction, which suggests much the force and ‘illegality’ which Gobbo is protesting, as well as the reality of the will to power which I am forever investigating – is tied to a conjunction of Saturn and Venus, which immediately evokes the idea of the suppression of values and valuing capacity. Perhaps more accurately it restricts the valuing capacity to the purely Saturnian, austere, ‘bitter’.

Perhaps what must become evident first on that platform is its nihilism. Capables post on Kitaro can not even be properly read there as it could be here. The question is whether this clinical environment can be used to some kind of advantage. At this point no one wants to come within a hundred yards of the site – it is quarantined.

What can bring, what can mean a world, a natural order?



" This world-order, the same of all, no god nor man did create, but it ever was and is and will be: everliving fire, kindling in measures and being quenched in measures. "

" We must recognize that war is common and strife is justice, and all things happen according to strife and necessity. "

" War is the father of all and king of all, who manifested some as gods and some as men, who made some slaves and some freemen. "












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PostSubject: Re: About the other place About the other place Icon_minitimeFri Dec 28, 2012 3:05 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
would atheists happen to be governed by saturn and venus or the opposite?



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PostSubject: Re: About the other place About the other place Icon_minitimeFri Dec 28, 2012 6:30 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I don't know if that's a question that can be answered, but religion is tied to Jupiter and Neptune, and both these planets make harmonic aspects with the Venus/Saturn block... so for the sake of argument I'd say the atheist is more tied to the Pluto/Mars block. Or rather, less to the Venus/Saturn one.



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PostSubject: Re: About the other place About the other place Icon_minitimeFri Dec 28, 2012 6:58 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
well i tripped balls last night... and part of that trip was seeing that it happens to be atheists that are in control of the powers that be at the moment... as such it would make since to me that after such a realization would come a sign that there will be a growth of the opposite... alien



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"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: About the other place About the other place Icon_minitimeFri Dec 28, 2012 8:05 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
There will certainly be a growth of religious feelings the coming decade if I look at Neptune. But this also means an increased susceptibility, a tendency to believe stories if they sound good, if they make one feel exalted.


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PostSubject: haiku message haiku message Icon_minitimeMon Dec 08, 2014 3:29 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
No path in the stream
there is only so much air
and the rocks are cold

Sun is set: red night
There is no exit for us
But only duty

Rip open this cage
steal the fire and consume
all that is asleep


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PostSubject: To welcome back Pezer To welcome back Pezer Icon_minitimeFri Aug 28, 2015 11:34 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
My drunken way of saying hey,









The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: The Philosophers

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:53 am

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a humble thought on Akira Empty
PostSubject: a humble thought on Akira a humble thought on Akira Icon_minitimeSun Sep 13, 2015 8:53 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
I know enough of desire,
To side with those who favor fire.
But I know that ice,
Is also good,
And will suffice.
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a humble thought on Akira Empty
PostSubject: Re: a humble thought on Akira a humble thought on Akira Icon_minitimeSun Sep 13, 2015 9:42 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Very nice.







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Rain Empty
PostSubject: Rain Rain Icon_minitimeMon Sep 14, 2015 9:22 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
So, I was having a walk in the warm Caracas thunderstorm, having a bit of a religious epiphany, feeling in awe of Zeus and feeling as one with my Nordic brothers plus all babilonians, when I asked myself: how did the native americans worship the rain?

This came to me:

In the case of the indians in Jungle regions of what is now Venezuela, whether near the coast or in the amazon, the answer was:

We be chillin, getting high all day in this crazy mother of a jungle.






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Rain Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rain Rain Icon_minitimeTue Sep 15, 2015 2:36 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster


The Earth is good.




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Ode to Myself So Far Empty
PostSubject: Ode to Myself So Far Ode to Myself So Far Icon_minitimeTue Sep 22, 2015 3:59 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Verily, I have stood my ground always,
To the meek and the lovers of order!
Without a single shard of disrespect,
Or injury from my person emanating.

From infancy I have been loved by men,
When at the hight of their honor and,
Exploratory bravery they feel and see.
Never has a man in me seen ordinance.

My enemies strong have always been!
And jelous, adding only to their strength.
In the end I have always been pardoned,
Out of fear as much as unadmitted respect!



Wise old men have always wanted me,
For a son and their only one apprentice.
In my betrayal they have ne'er felt chagrin!
But pained love and honest endearment.

I have received from lovers admiration,
And interest, and friendship as well.
From fighters always nothing less than,
Loyalty! And brotherly sweat and self-joy.

From the brave I have been offered warlord-
Ship. The wanderers offer to settle for war...
Always in me they sense a vast horizon and hope!
Which is decidedly secondary to my animal sense.

The wise... Ah, the wise! The wise have noticed me,
And respected the arts of my own wisdom as true.
Never a bellicose thought toward me from them,
As wise men's only interest is the food I bring.


In my own lands I have been seen as a stranger,
Though to the heart closer than a patriot seems...
In foreign lands I have always been beheld with,
A bewildering familiarity and brotherhood unkown.




And so, not wanderer, or soldier, or leader or show,
Not commander of many or hermit or snow,
Not wise or skilled or great or slow,
Not big or small or faint of glow,

I am that I motherfucking am!
And 'till I die it will be so.









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Warriors are the most afraid. The most fearfull are most feared. Empty
PostSubject: Warriors are the most afraid. The most fearfull are most feared. Warriors are the most afraid. The most fearfull are most feared. Icon_minitimeWed Dec 14, 2011 6:38 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
We fight only against what we fear.
The fearless man is the peaceful man.

Suffering is the path of fulfilling desire.
Nirvana is not absence of suffering,
but having less desires.

The Buddha is a soul at the old stage
experienced enough to know what is worth desiring.

Satisfied with less
by seeing more.
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Warriors are the most afraid. The most fearfull are most feared. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Warriors are the most afraid. The most fearfull are most feared. Warriors are the most afraid. The most fearfull are most feared. Icon_minitimeSat Dec 17, 2011 6:23 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Abstract wrote:
We fight only against what we fear.
The fearless man is the peaceful man.

Suffering is the path of fulfilling desire.
Nirvana is not absence of suffering,
but having less desires.

The Buddha is a soul at the old stage
experienced enough to know what is worth desiring.

Satisfied with less
by seeing more.
Is seeing something, for instance, as harmful, and fighting against that, the same as being fearful? Is awareness the same as fearfulness? Is having the ability to see into the future by being aware of the present and acting on that - is that the same as being fearful - albeit fear can be a tool for survival.


The fearless man may also be the unaware man or the fool. Just saying.
Does the 'peaceful' man give up his survival instinct?

Suffering may also be the path or the fire by which we burn away our 'empty' and genuinely meaningless desires.
I thought nirvana was more an experience of wonderful and complete emptiness...a 'being there' sort of place.
But is more seen - or is 'enough' seen? But I understand what you mean by more - 'complete' is a far better word to me.





___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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Warriors are the most afraid. The most fearfull are most feared. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Warriors are the most afraid. The most fearfull are most feared. Warriors are the most afraid. The most fearfull are most feared. Icon_minitimeSat Dec 17, 2011 7:07 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
VaerosTanarg wrote:
Abstract wrote:
We fight only against what we fear.
The fearless man is the peaceful man.

Suffering is the path of fulfilling desire.
Nirvana is not absence of suffering,
but having less desires.

The Buddha is a soul at the old stage
experienced enough to know what is worth desiring.

Satisfied with less
by seeing more.
Is seeing something, for instance, as harmful, and fighting against that, the same as being fearful? Is awareness the same as fearfulness? Is having the ability to see into the future by being aware of the present and acting on that - is that the same as being fearful - albeit fear can be a tool for survival.
hear I am thinking of fear as being regardless of anxiety, and thus mostly concern of the future. So awareness is not fearfulness, being aware of the future in a manner that leads to the desire of action for prevention...perhaps... Perhaps being fulfilled by the now one does not need so much of a future, and need not worry about it. The more people the more concerned for the future the more people taking action to change it and the more of that there is the harder it is to change it and the more suffering must be paid for what change of it is desired.

Quote :

The fearless man may also be the unaware man or the fool. Just saying.
Does the 'peaceful' man give up his survival instinct?
If a person can be fulfilled in a moment now what need is there of survival into a future?

Quote :

Suffering may also be the path or the fire by which we burn away our 'empty' and genuinely meaningless desires.
Absence of suffering comes only after one has suffered. Suffering is required. It is balance that should be sought.

Quote :

I thought nirvana was more an experience of wonderful and complete emptiness...a 'being there' sort of place.
But is more seen - or is 'enough' seen? But I understand what you mean by more - 'complete' is a far better word to me.


Seeing more of the infinite things in each single thing. be that thing physical or an idea.
Complete emptiness is as complete absence wherein there is absence of absence and thus presence...
Nothing is "complete" it is by limitation that anything "is".

Nirvana is emptiness of the Right things
It is balance... Perhaps of what is called the Middle Path...
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Warriors are the most afraid. The most fearfull are most feared. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Warriors are the most afraid. The most fearfull are most feared. Warriors are the most afraid. The most fearfull are most feared. Icon_minitimeSat Jan 14, 2012 5:04 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Quote :
Is seeing something, for instance, as harmful, and fighting against that, the same as being fearful? Is awareness the same as fearfulness? Is having the ability to see into the future by being aware of the present and acting on that - is that the same as being fearful - albeit fear can be a tool for survival.

hear I am thinking of fear as being regardless of anxiety, and thus mostly concern of the future.

So awareness is not fearfulness, being aware of the future in a manner that leads to the desire of action for prevention...perhaps... Perhaps being fulfilled by the now one does not need so much of a future, and need not worry about it.

So perhaps you are thinking of fear in terms of an unproductive focusing on the future. But one may live in and feel fulfilled by the present moment and at the same time, have the awareness of knowing that one must ALSO plan for the future. There are those who live only in the future and miss the present and there are also those who live ONLY for the moment and see no future.

Quote :
The more people the more concerned for the future the more people taking action to change it and the more of that there is the harder it is to change it and the more suffering must be paid for what change of it is desired.
Can you please explain what you mean by this a bit more.


Quote :
The fearless man may also be the unaware man or the fool. Just saying.
Does the 'peaceful' man give up his survival instinct?

If a person can be fulfilled in a moment now what need is there of survival into a future?
I think that I may intuit what you’re saying here. When we are fully living and flowing in the present moment, there is no thought of a future or a past either. Time stands still or even disappears. There is only the core self. Unless I am misunderstanding your meaning.



Quote :
Suffering may also be the path or the fire by which we burn away our 'empty' and genuinely meaningless desires.

Absence of suffering comes only after one has suffered. Suffering is required. It is balance that should be sought.
Yes, I am with you on this. Suffering is a process that one must go through if one is to come out "on the other side" so to speak and it does require balance. But at the same time, it requires that nothing be forced nor sacrificed but only experienced in the moment.



Quote :
I thought nirvana was more an experience of wonderful and complete emptiness...a 'being there' sort of place.
But is more seen - or is 'enough' seen? But I understand what you mean by more - 'complete' is a far better word to me.

Seeing more of the infinite things in each single thing. be that thing physical or an idea.


As Blake said: “To see the world in a grain of sand, and a heaven in a wildflower, is to hold infinity in the palm of your hand and eternity in an hour.”
Now that is living in the 'complete' moment - having an experience "come to us" like that.

Quote :
Complete emptiness is as complete absence wherein there is absence of absence and thus presence...
That’s sort of difficult to wrap my mind around. But basically, I think what you are saying here is that there can never be complete emptiness. Can you explain why?

Quote :
Nothing is "complete" it is by limitation that anything "is".
I have many moments when I am feeling ‘complete’…no thought of any limitation…when time stands still and there is just the being there...perhaps there is not even that.

Quote :
Nirvana is emptiness of the Right things
It is balance... Perhaps of what is called the Middle Path...
nir•va•na (nîr-vä n , n r-)
n.
1. often Nirvana
a. Buddhism The ineffable ultimate in which one has attained disinterested wisdom and compassion.
b. Hinduism Emancipation from ignorance and the extinction of all attachment.
2. An ideal condition of rest, harmony, stability, or joy.

According to this definition, I wouldn’t so much think of nirvana in terms of the Middle Path as I would of ‘being there’ or 'having arrived" as I stated above or "heaven".

I think that the middle path is a state or a process of remaining balanced. But maybe I am not understanding it for what it is. Perhaps when one actually walks the middle path, there is no effort to remain balanced.

Thank you, Abstract.







___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Warriors are the most afraid. The most fearfull are most feared. Warriors are the most afraid. The most fearfull are most feared. Icon_minitimeMon Jan 16, 2012 5:39 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
VaerosTanarg wrote:
Quote :
Is seeing something, for instance, as harmful, and fighting against that, the same as being fearful? Is awareness the same as fearfulness? Is having the ability to see into the future by being aware of the present and acting on that - is that the same as being fearful - albeit fear can be a tool for survival.

hear I am thinking of fear as being regardless of anxiety, and thus mostly concern of the future.

So awareness is not fearfulness, being aware of the future in a manner that leads to the desire of action for prevention...perhaps... Perhaps being fulfilled by the now one does not need so much of a future, and need not worry about it.

So perhaps you are thinking of fear in terms of an unproductive focusing on the future. But one may live in and feel fulfilled by the present moment and at the same time, have the awareness of knowing that one must ALSO plan for the future. There are those who live only in the future and miss the present and there are also those who live ONLY for the moment and see no future.
yes i would think that some non-nowness is necessary less what you are in is not really a moment anyways...a moment should be a line.. to be completely in the now would be like being a point on the time line... which in itself (a true monad) has no value...
Quote :

Quote :
The more people the more concerned for the future the more people taking action to change it and the more of that there is the harder it is to change it and the more suffering must be paid for what change of it is desired.
Can you please explain what you mean by this a bit more.
If you have 2 people concerned for the future and taking action then only so much change is occurring and thus for your action and predicting you only need to take into account those two people... but the more people doing this the more must be taken into account and thus the more chaotic it all becomes; the ability to predict the future in any reasonable manner (which is much of what consciousness is) is reduced the more action there is being taken to change the future...perhaps..

(which makes me wonder if the ability to be conscious of a species is reduced the larger it gets with more things trying to change the future...)

Quote :

Quote :
The fearless man may also be the unaware man or the fool. Just saying.
Does the 'peaceful' man give up his survival instinct?

If a person can be fulfilled in a moment now what need is there of survival into a future?
I think that I may intuit what you’re saying here. When we are fully living and flowing in the present moment, there is no thought of a future or a past either. Time stands still or even disappears. There is only the core self. Unless I am misunderstanding your meaning.
Plausibly... but who knows... I would think fear that such is not the case, is preventative of achieving that...


Quote :

Quote :
Suffering may also be the path or the fire by which we burn away our 'empty' and genuinely meaningless desires.

Absence of suffering comes only after one has suffered. Suffering is required. It is balance that should be sought.
Yes, I am with you on this. Suffering is a process that one must go through if one is to come out "on the other side" so to speak and it does require balance. But at the same time, it requires that nothing be forced nor sacrificed but only experienced in the moment.
yes, One should come to where they should be when they are ready... There is no need to seek Nirvana as some Buddhist writings suggest, rather it will come when it comes...

Quote :

Quote :
I thought nirvana was more an experience of wonderful and complete emptiness...a 'being there' sort of place.
But is more seen - or is 'enough' seen? But I understand what you mean by more - 'complete' is a far better word to me.

Seeing more of the infinite things in each single thing. be that thing physical or an idea.


As Blake said: “To see the world in a grain of sand, and a heaven in a wildflower, is to hold infinity in the palm of your hand and eternity in an hour.”
Now that is living in the 'complete' moment - having an experience "come to us" like that.
perhaps all that is needed is to realize that given that we live in an infinite universe any one thing is a compounding, a product, of the infinite... and any product of infinity (math) is itself infinite.

Quote :
Quote :

Complete emptiness is as complete absence wherein there is absence of absence and thus presence...

That’s sort of difficult to wrap my mind around. But basically, I think what you are saying here is that there can never be complete emptiness. Can you explain why?

if everything is absent then so is the very absence of things...

Given complete emptiness then everything is empty of even emptiness...

The complete emptiness has no 'thingness' such as to be present anywhere, non-existence cannot exist by its very nature, thus existence is all there can be...

Quote :
Quote :

Nothing is "complete" it is by limitation that anything "is".

I have many moments when I am feeling ‘complete’…no thought of any limitation…when time stands still and there is just the being there...perhaps there is not even that.

The incompleteness of things is the complete nature of things.... imperfection is perfection.

In other words limitation is the perfection. Yet we are so limited as to not truly-know anything including what our limitations are and as such it is best not to assume you are limited from doing anything.

Quote :

nir•va•na (nîr-vä n , n r-)
n.
1. often Nirvana
a. Buddhism The ineffable ultimate in which one has attained disinterested wisdom and compassion.
b. Hinduism Emancipation from ignorance and the extinction of all attachment.
2. An ideal condition of rest, harmony, stability, or joy.

According to this definition, I wouldn’t so much think of nirvana in terms of the Middle Path as I would of ‘being there’ or 'having arrived" as I stated above or "heaven".

I think that the middle path is a state or a process of remaining balanced. But maybe I am not understanding it for what it is. Perhaps when one actually walks the middle path, there is no effort to remain balanced.
Perhaps, if nirvana is a goal, then the middle path is a means to that goal. But not an achievement left behind when the goal is attained, but rather a state maintained.








___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
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Warriors are the most afraid. The most fearfull are most feared. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Warriors are the most afraid. The most fearfull are most feared. Warriors are the most afraid. The most fearfull are most feared. Icon_minitimeWed Sep 30, 2015 4:21 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Our fallen friend had a lot of wisdom when it came to the nature of fear and desire. His notion here, of the fearful as the fearsome, is sound on a primal level that reminds of what Parodites described somewhere as the origins of humanity as a form of resisting and arresting all the new possibilities in violences such as cannimalism and (self) mutilation. This fearsomeness of mind itself is the reason why humans become fearsome. Violence is the first negotiating term of man with his mind.



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- Thucydides
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Warriors are the most afraid. The most fearfull are most feared. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Warriors are the most afraid. The most fearfull are most feared. Warriors are the most afraid. The most fearfull are most feared. Icon_minitimeWed Sep 30, 2015 4:44 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
If nirvana is buhdda in his old age, then chaos is what we seek if we aspire to it. If fearlessness is what waits at the end of the road, to respect that wisdom one must seek fear everywhere. Thus, when we reach our own old age, we plan to overcome Buhdda.

The power that Abstract found in Buhdda was great, he was fearsome. His writings are still full of fear.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: The Philosophers

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:55 am

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PostSubject: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Icon_minitimeSun Dec 25, 2011 8:29 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
May not be the best place for this... (I have the answer...at least that I would give...)

How does one win the unwinable?



___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Icon_minitimeFri Dec 30, 2011 5:45 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Abstract wrote:
May not be the best place for this... (I have the answer...at least that I would give...)

How does one win the unwinable?

By desiring to lose.



___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Icon_minitimeSat Dec 31, 2011 6:46 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Or by simply not striving to win or lose.
Why pursue what you perceive as a loss?

Cool
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Icon_minitimeSat Dec 31, 2011 7:54 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Often we discover and learn far more through losing than winning, especially about ourselves.



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“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Icon_minitimeMon Jan 02, 2012 5:46 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
James S Saint wrote:
Or by simply not striving to win or lose.
Why pursue what you perceive as a loss?

Cool
yes that works too it would seem



___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Icon_minitimeMon Jan 02, 2012 2:47 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
James S Saint wrote:
Or by simply not striving to win or lose.
Why pursue what you perceive as a loss?

Cool
Actually maybe not... because if you do not desire to lose then you have won nothing ... the question is how do you win the unwinable... not how can you avoid losing the unwinable... but with reagards to the concept that is fair enough... one need simply to not care, ultimately...



___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Icon_minitimeThu Jan 05, 2012 10:54 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thomas Merton, the christian mystic has a nice translation of the Taoist Sage Chuang Tzu talking about the topic at hand.. Chuang tzu had the right idea I believe :

When an archer is shooting for nothing
He has all his skill.
If he shoots for a brass buckle
He is already nervous.
If he shoots for a prize of gold
He goes blind
Or sees two targets-
He is out of his mind!

His skill has not changed. But the prize
Divides him. He cares.
He thinks more of winning
Than of shooting -
And the need to win
Drains him of power.





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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Icon_minitimeSun Jan 08, 2012 10:19 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Quote :
He thinks more of winning
Than of shooting -
Yes! Those who excel simply do not care so much if they win or lose as much as they care to so what they do well.

A prize, acclaim, may be the result, but it is strictly a contingency. This is also the reason perhaps why often, real artists are made uncertain by acclaim, are distracted from their true skill, seek after success disgrace so they can 'hate' the world as they did before, when they were unknown and had only their art.



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" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Icon_minitimeFri Jan 27, 2012 4:01 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Abstract wrote:
Abstract wrote:
May not be the best place for this... (I have the answer...at least that I would give...)

How does one win the unwinable?

By desiring to lose.
Your answer to that question ALSO sounds like buddhist or daoist thinking to me. Rolling Eyes
And what would be the reason for desiring to lose in the first place?
Practically speaking, if one desires to lose, its best to leave something alone, no? Or to think out the situation, question why one does feel that way - is the desire to lose based on wisdom or fear or insecurity? And then to take that and to question it further and further and further...
To begin by automatically assuming that what is 'unwinnable' is, in actuality, unwinnable, is a defeatist attitude.

The only answer I would give to your question - "how does one win the unwinnable" and of course, there are legions of answers, but the first one that comes to me is simply to begin by changing one's belief, perception and thinking - by 'seeing' that there is always the possibility of 'winning' and acting on that, until one has exhausted all avenues through action and within their own mind, and comes to the conclusion that it is 'unwinnable' - even though in fact it still may not be....or wins.

The mind is a mirror of the will or a lack of it. Transcend your mind and your will will rise with it.



___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Icon_minitimeTue Feb 07, 2012 8:29 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
VaerosTanarg wrote:
Abstract wrote:
Abstract wrote:
May not be the best place for this... (I have the answer...at least that I would give...)

How does one win the unwinable?

By desiring to lose.
Your answer to that question ALSO sounds like buddhist or daoist thinking to me. Rolling Eyes
And what would be the reason for desiring to lose in the first place?
Practically speaking, if one desires to lose, its best to leave something alone, no? Or to think out the situation, question why one does feel that way - is the desire to lose based on wisdom or fear or insecurity? And then to take that and to question it further and further and further...
To begin by automatically assuming that what is 'unwinnable' is, in actuality, unwinnable, is a defeatist attitude.

The only answer I would give to your question - "how does one win the unwinnable" and of course, there are legions of answers, but the first one that comes to me is simply to begin by changing one's belief, perception and thinking - by 'seeing' that there is always the possibility of 'winning' and acting on that, until one has exhausted all avenues through action and within their own mind, and comes to the conclusion that it is 'unwinnable' - even though in fact it still may not be....or wins.

The mind is a mirror of the will or a lack of it. Transcend your mind and your will will rise with it.
Yes I think that is basically the point... to change the self to overcome the situation... nothing is unwinable, even what seems such can be overcome by the state of mind...



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"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Icon_minitimeMon Apr 09, 2012 3:47 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Abstract wrote:
Abstract wrote:
May not be the best place for this... (I have the answer...at least that I would give...)

How does one win the unwinable?

By desiring to lose.
Is it even logical to suppose that we can even desire to lose something which is 'unwinable". Wouldn't that be like grasping thin air?
For me, at least in this moment, the answer is by desiring 'nothing' either way. If we are 'desiring nothing' we are in total detachment.


There are many answers to many things....some more valid than others...depending on one's own perception. I may change mine yet again.



___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Icon_minitimeMon Apr 09, 2012 6:08 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
VaerosTanarg wrote:

Is it even logical to suppose that we can even desire to lose something which is 'unwinable". Wouldn't that be like grasping thin air?
For me, at least in this moment, the answer is by desiring 'nothing' either way. If we are 'desiring nothing' we are in total detachment.


There are many answers to many things....some more valid than others...depending on one's own perception. I may change mine yet again.
I think i agree with you it seems more reasonable to desire nothing then to desire to lose.



___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Icon_minitimeMon Apr 09, 2012 6:29 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Abstract wrote:
VaerosTanarg wrote:

Is it even logical to suppose that we can even desire to lose something which is 'unwinable". Wouldn't that be like grasping thin air?
For me, at least in this moment, the answer is by desiring 'nothing' either way. If we are 'desiring nothing' we are in total detachment.


There are many answers to many things....some more valid than others...depending on one's own perception. I may change mine yet again.
I think i agree with you it seems more reasonable to desire nothing then to desire to lose.
At the same time, isn't it true that if we 'desire nothing' we might have to be dead?
We have to desire something sometimes. After all, we're human.
It comes down to learning to be discriminate human beings. lol



___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Icon_minitimeMon Apr 09, 2012 6:32 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
VaerosTanarg wrote:
Abstract wrote:
VaerosTanarg wrote:

Is it even logical to suppose that we can even desire to lose something which is 'unwinable". Wouldn't that be like grasping thin air?
For me, at least in this moment, the answer is by desiring 'nothing' either way. If we are 'desiring nothing' we are in total detachment.


There are many answers to many things....some more valid than others...depending on one's own perception. I may change mine yet again.
I think i agree with you it seems more reasonable to desire nothing then to desire to lose.
At the same time, isn't it true that if we 'desire nothing' we might have to be dead?
We have to desire something sometimes. After all, we're human.
It comes down to learning to be discriminate human beings. lol
Perhaps what one should desire then is not to lose but rather to simply not desire to win, or in otherwords have no desire regarding at least winning in that case.



___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Icon_minitimeTue May 01, 2012 2:28 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Abstract...

Quote :
Perhaps what one should desire then is not to lose but rather to simply not desire to win, or in otherwords have no desire regarding at least winning in that case.
And in what position does that then leave the 'one'? Smile



___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Icon_minitimeSat May 05, 2012 7:04 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
i dont follow Question



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"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Icon_minitimeMon May 07, 2012 2:38 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Abstract wrote:
i dont follow Question
Well, that's a good thing Abstract - especially if the leader has no idea where he is going. Forge your own path.


Quote :
Perhaps what one should desire then is not to lose but rather to simply not desire to win, or in otherwords have no desire regarding at least winning in that case.

And in what position does that then leave the 'one'?

I don't suppose there is actually only one answer to this question but I had one in mind. But, what would you say is another position? A hint, don't let the written word throw you or mislead you. scratch



___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Icon_minitimeWed May 09, 2012 5:04 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
i dont know... there is desire to lose, desire nothing, simply don't care... i don't know what else there is



___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question Icon_minitimeWed Sep 30, 2015 6:50 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
This is another question that is pertinent to what we've been discussing and takes to it from a whole different angle.

My answer here is that we win the unwinnable by considering the road to be the goal, without actually saying so; we bravely move toward a goal, but secretly know that this goal is only a means to the end of moving, expressing our strength, being alive.

So we win the goal for us, we place it in our bosom without actually reaching it, thus without neutralizing it. To win the unwinnable we must set unreachable goals. A bit like the moon might be said to have the goal of plummeting into Earth.






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What have you gained from philosophy? Empty
PostSubject: What have you gained from philosophy? What have you gained from philosophy? Icon_minitimeMon Nov 05, 2012 6:22 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Aristotle once said, "I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law."

What do you think you have gained from philosophy, what have you lost?



___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: What have you gained from philosophy? What have you gained from philosophy? Icon_minitimeWed Nov 21, 2012 5:09 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Abstract wrote:
Aristotle once said, "I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law."

What do you think you have gained from philosophy, ?

My Self...an ongoing process...

A much more expansive perspective (still working on it)

My doubts and skepticism about a deity - ignosticism (that's a good thing)

The possibility that there may be some First Cause which we can never ever solve the mystery of. And that that First Cause will probably remain completely foreign to our puny brains; even if in fact there is one to begin with. And why would we choose to solve that mystery?

The value that comes from examining and doubting your beliefs (an ongoing process)

A brighter mind (mind you, I said "brighter" not brightest Mad )

A world of brilliant awesome thinkers...I would not have known otherwise...

The insight that I do not know how to love such as I previously thought...

The light that still shines and lingers from a tsunamic friendship...

A complicated look - a conundrum of sorts, into the ethics of "to do no harm" and how one's sense of that can be balanced - to do no harm to self, and at the same time, to another...how that can be accomplished - it is not an easy problem to solve, it's a never-ending process which seems to have no solution. Does that mean I'm on the right track or the wrong track.

Obviously, an even clearer sense and vision that Life is an ongoing process - and it is that process which makes life worthy of being lived.



Quote :
what have you lost

my [s]elf... (an onging process)

Tunnel vision (still working on that too)

a worn-out juvenile belief in a deity.

The luxury of living in the matrix (still working on it. lol)

Meaningless realizations (still working on it)

Actually, when thought about, none of the near above are losses...they are all gains...


and so forth...










___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: What have you gained from philosophy? What have you gained from philosophy? Icon_minitimeTue Oct 08, 2013 5:06 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
It's not what I've gained, it's what I have lost, namely enough to be prepared to die. Philosophia est moriendi ars.



___________
ΑΝΤΗΡΟΠΑΡΙΟΝ,
in formis perisseia mutilata in omnia perisarkos mutilatum;
omniformis protosseia immutilatum in protosarkos immutilata.

[ The Ecstasies of Zosimos, Tablet
the First.]

BTHYS TOU ANAHAT KHYA-PANDEMAI.


-- Hermaedion, in: the Liber Endumiaskia.
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PostSubject: Re: What have you gained from philosophy? What have you gained from philosophy? Icon_minitimeFri Oct 02, 2015 7:20 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Abstract wrote:
Aristotle once said, "I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law."

I never had need of philosophy to do that, in as far as it means crass criminal behavior. This points to how new the idea of existential gravity was to the Greeks that had it. They had it as a point, rather than as a field in which they could move. This accounts for that profound superficiality Nietzsche regarded as their most enviable virtue, what is behind the absolute and unmatchable perfection of their art. One hook in truth and no room for error. Life as the perfect circle drawn from a fixed point. Life as a circle produces the immortal.

Quote :
What do you think you have gained from philosophy,

Among other things, friendship.

Quote :
what have you lost?

Innocence.



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" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: What have you gained from philosophy? What have you gained from philosophy? Icon_minitimeFri Oct 02, 2015 10:06 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Drinking in honor of Abstract today.


Gained from philosophy? Pride. Sanity. Clarity. A cold mountain-like distance above things. Also a deep familiarity with the Earth.

Lost? The ability to "be" in that Earth, to flow in the tectonics that are self-unknown and thus beautiful. Philosophy forever strives to reclaim that which it lost, sacrificed, in the name of its other god - truth. We can either "be" truth, or we can "know" it. To know it is to elevate the entirety of existence; to be it is to reap the benefits of all that former knowing, knowledge in which being itself cannot really partake. All philosophy is in a sense "anti-being".

Other things seem to even out. I've lost some happiness, gained other happiness. New sufferings afflict me as a consequence of philosophy, but then other sufferings have vanished as a consequence of it. New experience recede into impossibility, while others open themselves up before me like rose-buds, or whores.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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What have you gained from philosophy? Empty
PostSubject: Re: What have you gained from philosophy? What have you gained from philosophy? Icon_minitimeFri Oct 02, 2015 12:14 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Gained the bridge of discernment to my most fucked up self.

Lost the honor of my family.








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A Theory of Movement and Response to Parmenides Based on Nietzsche's Theory of The Eternal Return Empty
PostSubject: A Theory of Movement and Response to Parmenides Based on Nietzsche's Theory of The Eternal Return A Theory of Movement and Response to Parmenides Based on Nietzsche's Theory of The Eternal Return Icon_minitimeSun Oct 04, 2015 9:00 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
What is, is, and what is not yet, is something else.
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A Theory of Movement and Response to Parmenides Based on Nietzsche's Theory of The Eternal Return Empty
PostSubject: Re: A Theory of Movement and Response to Parmenides Based on Nietzsche's Theory of The Eternal Return A Theory of Movement and Response to Parmenides Based on Nietzsche's Theory of The Eternal Return Icon_minitimeSun Oct 04, 2015 11:07 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
This also aims at Parodites' theory of quanta.





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Some Shamanistic Thoughts on Human Categories for The Philosopher Empty
PostSubject: Some Shamanistic Thoughts on Human Categories for The Philosopher Some Shamanistic Thoughts on Human Categories for The Philosopher Icon_minitimeMon Oct 05, 2015 4:07 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Child Tyrant

A philosopher takes it to over 9000 by filtering everything like a child's tyranny: I take what I like, I respect nothing but my own taste in your words. This way, true collaboration is born: by absolute egoism. The flip side is that no part of anything can be disregarded: as Capable says, there might be a clue in there.

Woman's Role for Men

Why be desperate at the fizzling away of meaning at high speeds? Maybe a woman watched it and was tickled by it! What comfort... What center. The center is not the cause that fizzles, but the consequence that enjoys. The cause is only movement, with befores and afters.




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J.R.R. Tolkien Empty
PostSubject: J.R.R. Tolkien J.R.R. Tolkien Icon_minitimeSun Oct 04, 2015 1:48 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
One of the things that impresses me about Tolkien is how he reversed Nietzsche's procession. First, with The Hobbit, he was a child, then, with The Lord of The Rings he was a Lion, and finally with The Silmarilion he was the Camel. I guess he would have gone into chameleon if given enough time, though maybe his studies on linguistics represent this.

The Hobbit, by the way, is a fantastic book to read as an older child, 8 to 13. So awesome. His original conception of dwarves and hobbits was to give children powerful figures to relate to.
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PostSubject: Re: J.R.R. Tolkien J.R.R. Tolkien Icon_minitimeMon Oct 05, 2015 6:15 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Great insight about the reverse procession of Nietzsche's idea. Although the child in Hobbit is more of an incipient, expectant state rather than the result of a former completion and passing-beyond as in the case of Nietzsche's child post-lion, post-camel, but in either case the characteristics are similar there - much overcoming by the end of the book. I very much enjoyed reading The Hobbit as a youth, I had this really nice edition of the book, large with graphics and an ornate, old-looking binding and cover. I remember when I saw it in the book store, I immediately fell in love with it and begged my dad to buy it for me.. it was winter, the snow was falling in big slow flakes, and then we went to McDonalds after buying the book. In some ways, the experience of reading that book at a young age and for the first time, may have been my original introduction into philosophy.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: J.R.R. Tolkien J.R.R. Tolkien Icon_minitimeMon Oct 05, 2015 6:29 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I had the asthetic experience with The Lord of The Rings, which I read from a library in its original 9 book format, each one black with a different symbol. So medieval...

I think Tolkien is almost a perfect mirror for a philosopher: like a Maerlin, he shows in reverse the truths of immmediate insights. The Lord of The Rings is what Medieval literature would FEEL like in modern times, not because of a more cynical perspective which he explicitly condemned but because of a wider field of experience. What we now know, so to speak, about princehood. Some of his battles read like a Homeric chapter, a dry list of fallen Nobles with Adjectives, evoking a greatness so immediate that the distance takes form as concrete distance. Gandalf is a dangerous motherfucker who just Happens to be on the hobbits' side, a return or rather update of the original wild wizard. Lore Master (philosopher).
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: The Philosophers

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:58 am

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PostSubject: Pithagoras Pithagoras Icon_minitimeMon Oct 05, 2015 8:25 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Pithagoras found nature immediately as mundane as any unthinking man, the same with mathematics as boring. What made nature misteriously transcendental was that he had the code, the number. Numbers are transcendental inasmuch as they decode the normally mundane nature into a mediate knowledge that imprints power on the brain itself... The feeling, the almost smell of wisdom in trees comes from the knowledge that numbers can be applied to them and almost make man commune with nature in terms of man instead of of nature.

Pithagoras was a badass. But he had no transcendental knowledge, only an applied philosophy that gave a feeling of mistic communion.







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PostSubject: More Thoughts on The Moon More Thoughts on The Moon Icon_minitimeTue Oct 06, 2015 3:55 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The moon loves cause, she reaps its consequence. In her dwell in outmost joy all causes that reach her; but the cause that makes her happiest is the Sun. When he shines on her, she smiles! She is happy, all other causes are too faint and too cold to bring her such a smile, such as makes men dance, in which all other causes are dimly reflected, sharply unified. Men are all astounded at the great causes when they gaze upon her, and dance to their reflected beauty on the pale earth of her light. And women... They look at the moon and can feel no greater pride. Her identity is their possibility, a reflection of their act, and they feed from her consequence both symbolically and directly. O woman! I love to be loved by you. O moon! I love to be shown by you.






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It's a bird..! It's a plane..! It's... Empty
PostSubject: It's a bird..! It's a plane..! It's... It's a bird..! It's a plane..! It's... Icon_minitimeTue Oct 06, 2015 3:12 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
From a message I sent Capable: "I think the day philosophy is overcome will be a sad day, a buddist tired kind of day. The uberman, for example, is still below, still loves philosophy."

The only reason I separate superman and philosopher is that philosophy must neanmois always be the ultimate overcomer. The superman, if he is a philosopher, is the only kind of human left, and even then he can live and love side by side with a philosopher. Philosopher: he who keeps the art pure and of itself.
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It's a bird..! It's a plane..! It's... Empty
PostSubject: Re: It's a bird..! It's a plane..! It's... It's a bird..! It's a plane..! It's... Icon_minitimeWed Oct 07, 2015 6:18 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I don't think philosophy will ever be overcome. It is the art of overcoming itself. It will change shape, though, when science has been liberated from its superstitions. It will not always remain as free, at one point it must come to actually rule. We are perhaps enjoying philosophy's freest moment: it is discovering that it's nature is quite omnipotent, but this discovery is not yet communicated.

I can imagine the intellectual wars that will break out once these notions break through into different intellectual establishments.




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PostSubject: When Philosophers Dream When Philosophers Dream Icon_minitimeSun Dec 13, 2015 3:40 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Next to the Philosophers Clan video series we decided to pursue a small form of improvised fiction. After the first one came about in an unfathomable way that was supposed to lead to something very different, we decided to keep the form and stick with it, in the sense of haiku, calligraphy, a form of Japanese repetition.













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PostSubject: Studios Studios Icon_minitimeSat Mar 12, 2016 6:24 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
We've set up a youtube channel for our Montreal based film company, Before The Light Studios;
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC86mxs ... 67Jc6cHQ2g

Keep an eye on it. Things are rolling along quite nicely.

Ive PMed Capable about screenwriting. He said he's interested. In 2012 I had a correspondence with Parodites, working on a script, about two types of heroism. That was a tremendous setup, which I hope to continue working on some time.

In any case I invite Capable and Parodites hereby to join the studios as concept developers and screenwriters, to write philosophy for the screen.



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PostSubject: Re: Studios Studios Icon_minitimeSat Mar 12, 2016 7:54 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes I'm interested. And trying to work on some things. I'm having a difficult time trying to find a way to personify pure force, any suggestions? I want, within the film medium, for some characters to be ephemeral or unformed, imprecise yet functioning personas that act within the story; basically I want to find a way for the sensation and idea of a pure force or power to take the form of a character without needing to be represented in a concrete body or actor.

I'm toying with the idea of using an object, coupled with a voice over and some cinematic effects, but I know that's been done before. Another idea I had was to use brief glimpses of an article of clothing, somewhat suspended in the air or a boot on the ground, but making these fleeting and giving the impression they're disconnected from an actual unified whole person wearing those clothes, and then doing a voiceover on top of that. Or simply the power or suggestion, have other characters act as if another person were in the room but never actually show that other person. Use clever camera work and cuts and angles and sounds to create impressions of people where there are none.



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Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Studios Studios Icon_minitimeThu Mar 17, 2016 3:33 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I realized that film can not be invented, it must be obeyed. He who obeys it best is the mightiest. Like handling the sword.

To violate laws is only viable in the context of reestablishing, re-acknowledging them on a higher level of story development; one can cause a disorientating sequence to be released in a stabilizing finale where a person is shown to have gone through a delirium or physical duress. The physiology is challenged, and in the state of shaken-ness the viewer is given an image to identify with, in that state, as that state.
In as far as a story is carried by physiological nuances, it works as a script.

Actors are nervous people; high strung natures that are used to and not afraid of feeling their nerves reeling; they enjoy it. They ride on the currents of mans expectations and somehow fulfill what man can not attain while purely in the flesh.

Im impressed by the thread about politics, I follow it happily and share it with intelligent politically interested people. They appreciate it. My father said he thought much of Parodites' analysis of Trump. Other people communicated interest but wishing to understand in simpler terms. There is a magnetism to this; Trump is a story and who understands the psychology of man can tell where the story is headed.

Let's think up a political thriller. Analogous to the dynamics i this election but heavily altered so as to resemble only in the sense of mechanism. It is interesting to think up a future that could follow in say 50 years. I am thinking here of your view of women as the positive substance, C, as that which is far enough from the self-devouring ground of consciousness as to be properly within consciousness; 'objective' - or even 'object'.




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PostSubject: Today Today Icon_minitimeSun Aug 28, 2016 8:20 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Today LOin3b0

Jupiter year about to close.
Int he opening of the thirteenth month at the cusp of the new sign Jupiter is joined by Venus and Mercury; yesterday all were on the 27th degree, a degree where many philosophers and other men intellectual pride have placements; Nietzsche's Mars to begin with.

Pluto opposes Vesta which is conjunct Sirius (Pluto, Earth, Vesta and Sirius are in one line) at 13 Cancer, the 'birth degree' of the USA. (Sirius is the planet the Egyptians attributed to Isis, or, in Modern Faraoic, $)

Astrologers in my native country have predicted well over two decades ago that when Pluto runs opposite to this degree, the US will start falling apart, losing its mask reveal itself to itself; beyond this point, no one can see; Pluto determines power so deep that its workings are largely invisible until they're well and done.

Today Plutohigh-res

My own prediction is more optimistic; a few years after this cataclysmic transit, Pluto returns to its US birth degree, for the first time. No human experiences a Pluto-return; the Uranus return occurs at 84, the Saturn return at 29; a nation however, can and often will. It tends to break apart and/or solidify into a new form. Pluto will return to its position of 1776 quite soon.
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Re: The Philosophers

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:06 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYRSJc9W0hU

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PostSubject: The absolute necessity of atheism. The absolute necessity of atheism. Icon_minitimeSat Sep 24, 2016 9:50 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Or, the necessity of absolute atheism.

Atheism is much more than a disbelief in God and theisms. Atheism is a way of believing, a pure form of subjectivity: we should state openly that we do not care if or to whatever extent theism is correct, because that question of "is God real? Is there some reality to the theistic idea?" is the wrong question. Parodites has written about this, about how theism is a structure of subjectivity and the content of that structure doesn't really matter, what matters is the form of the subject who believes; lack of theism (atheism) is also a form of subjectivity regardless of questions about the truth of some content of any theism, and the atheist subjectivity is higher than the theist subjectivity in how theistic subjectivity still grants to those questions of God and theism a kind of reality that is actually entirely absent or withdrawn from the subject itself, therefore theistic subjectivity in fact represents a kind of self-contradiction sublimated to the level of ignorance. The ignorance is one of self-ignorance in how this person doesn't understand that their own beliefs in God or theism don't actually even matter, and not just in general but don't actually even matter to that person themselves.

Pure believe in God or theism is the first stage, a stage that children are often at; if you ask them it is clear they truly authentically believe in God or their own theistic construct of cosmology (this also seems to be the stage that most Christian and Muslim fundamentalists are still at). They believe in the same way they believe in other things like tables and chairs. The next stage is pre-philosophical doubt that questions the theistic beliefs, so that one gains the further authenticity of being able to admit that one honestly does not know if God or theism is really true; this reflects an unconscious understanding that the nature of belief in God and theism is different than the nature of belief in tables and chairs, and a person can be at this stage but still retain a kind of openness and desire for God and the theistic while still admitting they do not know. The final stage is the atheist stage that openly states it does not believe in God or theism.

Now these three stages correspond to three kinds of subjectivity, and the belief itself only functions to mark those stages: 1) subjectivity is unable to identify the structural differences regarding the nature of theistic beliefs vs. beliefs in things like tables (I'll call this latter kind of belief "material belief" for simplicity sake); for this stage the self has no capacity to distinguish between the form of material belief and the form of ideological belief; 2) the self becomes capable of drawing this distinction between these teo forms into conscious reflective subjectivity and so asserts a fundamental difference here when it comes to each kind of belief, and this difference which is asserted takes the form of separating how we believe in something like God vs. how we believe in something like tables and chairs. This second stage is symbolized by doubt and uncertainty toward the ideological beliefs; then 3) this distinction goes from the unconscious to conscious level and is able to inform the self directly, so that we become capable of admitting and knowing fully that the way of believing in God or theistic ideas is totally different from the way of believing in tables and chairs. Stage 1 is hard religious, stage 2 is soft religious/agnostic, and stage 3 is atheist.

Note that these stages have nothing to do with whatever actually real content might be the case with respect to beliefs in God or theistic claims. It doesn't matter if God is real or not, it doesn't matter if a given theistic belief-set has some actual reality and truth to it or not. The stages do not at all correspond to any kind of access to true knowledge about "what God or theism really are", the atheist at stage 3 is just as ignorant about the "reality of God" as is the hard religious at stage 1, but the point is that the atheist is capable of recognizing this ignorance.

So now there is introduced a stage 4, which reflects a differentiation within atheism: stage 3 atheism is unconscious atheism, the kind of atheist like Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins that makes statements like "I know there is no God", they must instantiate their atheism with clear statements about God and theism because they are still treating the question of God like the question of tables and chairs. This means that their subjective development toward honesty and philosophic depth is still at an unconscious stage, is still unable to recognize itself except where it recognizes its rejection of theism as such; the atheist like this gives God too much credit by assuming that we can meaningfully ask "is God real?", when in fact that question is not only unanswerable but totally meaningless. Stage 4 appears when the atheist realizes that it doesn't matter if God or theism are the case. This stage 4 therefore reflects the final honest authenticity of subjectivity able to acknowledge the absolute distinction between ideological and material believing.

Pascal's wager is an example of anti-philosophy, the exact opposite of what we should be doing. We shouldn't be saying "I choose beleif in God or theism because if I'm wrong it doesn't matter, but if I'm right then I gain the benefits of that belief", we should say "I choose not to believe in God because believing in God is meaninglessness as such, and even if God exists it doesn't even matter". The point is that taking Pascal's route we abandon our own subjectivity to impotence, we remain cowards before ourselves; the further step that Pascal should have taken is "even if God exists I still have no reason to believe in God, and even if I die and go before God in judgment God will still have to admit "yes it's true you had no reason to believe in me-- good for you for rejecting believing in me!"".

Once we reach stage 4 we can begin to analyze subjectivity directly and understand the clear function of religious ideological believing. No amount of questions or attempts to answer "is God real?" ever in fact grounds any kind of religious (or agnostic or atheist) subjectivity at all. But neither should the stage 4 self fall into the trap of saying that it is impossible for a God or a theistic order to exist; it is clearly not logically impossible for such a being or beings to exist, but that was never the point anyway. Many things are theoretically possible but absolutely unverifiable, and whether or not they truly are the case is irrelevant because we couldn't know in the first place and because belief in God and theisms operates existentially at the purely symbolic level of subjective-conscious being: the fact that our kind of subjectivity is unable to authentically treat gods and theistic possibilities in the same way that we treat things like tables and chairs demonstrates that God and theisms occupy an entirely different categorical order for which "believing or disbelieving" doesn't even make sense.

I associate religious believe with ideology because I see religion as a specific form of ideology, just as I see ideology as the general form of religion. Ideology is precisely the failure to recognize this difference in the categorical orders that I just mentioned; ideology is the confusion of one order with another. Namely, ideology is displaced subjectivity.

Political beliefs can also fall into this ideological trap, not necessarily because it is always impossible that we could authentically believe in the assertions of a political belief but because how the political subject treats his or her own political beliefs is the same as how the religious person treats his or her own religious beliefs. Most people do not go about trying to philosophically or empirically verify the grounds of their political beliefs even if those grounds could in theory be verified like that; politics is a kind of surrogate religious system that is treated as if it were religious in nature when in fact it really isn't religions like that. Thus these kind of political ideologies demonstrate that a subject is unable to fully assume a stage 4 subjectivity and is still using various kinds of beliefs as a means to instantiate and ground the more fundamental displaced subjectivity. This happens because as we all probably know, ideological believing feels good, it can act at the level of pleasure and desire-excess and it can act as a subjective glue holding us together in difficult or changing experiences. Philosophy is anti-entropic, but that requires therefore a high level of energy input to maintain; much easier to at times concede to a form of limited entropy where certain beliefs are assumed in order to relieve some of the burden of that energy requirement. Stage 3 is the naive atheist (the religious atheist) while stage 4 is a continuum: the low end of that continuum is partial acceptance of the categorical divide between subjective forms of knowledge and justification while still needing to relieve psychological pressure now and then by conceding to "small ideological errors", and progresses all the way up to the high end where no such concessions are allowed.

Being capable of philosophy means that we already understand that the question of "does God really exist?" is utterly meaningless to us, to the kind of subjectivity-structure that we are. And I think politics is quasi-religious because politics is capable of engaging an ideological need even when that need is incapable of employing religion. Politics is still necessarily different from religion, but the two often go hand in hand because of how politics can give the impression of a stage 4 subjectivity method while secretly looping back into stage 3 routes of escape for our entropic discharges of high energy requirement. So in this sense the philosopher at least makes political ideology into something useful and in part justified as a release valve keeping open the active possibility of his philosophizing in different directions... Thus we see that the limit of philosophy approaching politics is the limit of losing this utility of the self, of being forced to subsist in our philosophy on nothing but those energies that can be taken from nutrients palatable to philosophy as the ultimate standard.



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PostSubject: Harsh Places Harsh Places Icon_minitimeThu Oct 13, 2016 7:11 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I was looking at the map of the Russian-proposed transsiberian-atlantic highway from London to New York, when my eye fell, as it usually does when I stare at Russia on a map for a while, on Nova Zembla.

Harsh Places 1cahp8
Harsh Places 1cahyk

Look what it looks like, a straight razor, forcing the ships Northward. Truly horrible to be caught there.

Colonial ships from the Netherlands sometimes tried to discover the Northern Route around Asia to "The East-Indies", rather than having to go all the way around Africa. Obviously, you were unlucky if you happened to be on one of those expeditions.

One of them came back, its sailors lived to tell the stories and put fear in the Dutch of this island named Nova Zembla.

A few years ago a film came out, the DP was an old friend of mine but the film was utterly shit. They actually had a guy in a bear-suit, playing the polar bear they had scripted as they couldn't get one from the zoo or something. Ayway, dont go to Nova Zembla. Or if you do, bring an extra pair of socks.





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PostSubject: God God Icon_minitimeSun Oct 16, 2016 6:07 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster




___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: God God Icon_minitimeSun Oct 16, 2016 6:10 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster




___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: God God Icon_minitimeSun Oct 16, 2016 6:16 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
That is superior to "God" as I see it - that is pure Man.



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PostSubject: Re: God God Icon_minitimeSun Oct 16, 2016 6:24 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes I agree. Whatever God means, is what Man already meant.


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PostSubject: Chat Chat Icon_minitimeSun Oct 13, 2013 1:53 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Don't ask.

@ Fixed Cross : E2 E4
[23:50:30 15/02/12] Pezer : This chat app seems rather under-utilized
[18:23:57 18/02/12] VaerosTanarg : haha - no one here but VaerosTanarg. Hello VaerosTanarg:lol!:
[17:22:42 24/02/12] VaerosTanarg : hello
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[01:49:56 03/03/12] Parodites : *Sigh*
[15:29:16 03/09/12] CosmicSelector : Is this chat section used often?
[10:08:36 01/10/13] James S Saint : I wonder if this will also take 5 mins to refresh.. Smile
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[23:39:59 01/10/13] James S Saint : If anyone is watching this, my thread posting is terribly delayed and thus we are talking past each other. This chat thing works for immediate responses
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: The Philosophers

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:09 am

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PostSubject: tube tube Icon_minitimeSat Oct 29, 2016 8:41 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
this made me laugh








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PostSubject: Japanese Weakness Japanese Weakness Icon_minitimeTue Oct 13, 2015 5:31 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The samurai where weak the moment they invoked Budha, invoked anything, in the grappling with the immediate.

This is a valid criticism only because the Samurai were the strongest ever in the face of the immediate, the bravest.
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PostSubject: Re: Japanese Weakness Japanese Weakness Icon_minitimeSun Oct 30, 2016 5:33 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I dont see that they much did, though. You are right about their immediacy - Buddha was Indian and he only managed to arrive in Japan as "chan" or "zen" and then only through the zen of action.

The only way I can see any delay or sublimation or dissolution of the immediate is into massive dream visions like Anime, but these do not represent a loss of grappling-focus. I think. But then I am far from an expert of Anime.






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PostSubject: Health insurance Health insurance Icon_minitimeMon Oct 31, 2016 4:05 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I've resisted making a Banalities topic here at BTL, but this would definitely qualify. On the radio a woman called into a discussion on health insurance with "experts" one of whom is part of the Clinton group that supports Obamacare. The woman said she is self-employed and buys the cheapest possible state insurance plan, which increases by 60% this year in cost, to now it costs $20,000 a year for her to buy health insurance (which is legally required to do now), and her deductible is a few thousand dollars above that. She said she literally cannot afford the insurance and even despite that she can't even go to the doctor because if she does it counts toward deductible and she can't pay out of pocket either for that, when her health insurance each month is half of her rent payment.

Guess what the response from the radio host was? "But you're just the kind of person we need in the insurance risk pool!"

Really makes you want to strangle someone. These clowns have no fucking clue what they are doing to people. A few at the top like Obama and Clinton know, the rest are too stupid and brainwashed by syncophantic politically correct soullessness to even know it. When faced with the reality they literally shut off mentally, you can see it in real time.

Health care and university education are two massive bubbles right now. These bubbles must be popped. Try to imagine paying $20,000 a year for your health insurance (not even health care), and on top of that you can't afford to see the doctor. Lol.

Talk about "American pride", these sort of things are precisely why people are voting Trump. They're sick of being told they need to stop complaining about being fucked in the ass.



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You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Health insurance Health insurance Icon_minitimeMon Oct 31, 2016 6:09 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Excellent topic. Touches on many aspects of life in America.

However. all I will say at the moment is: "Obamacare sucks big time."
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PostSubject: Re: Health insurance Health insurance Icon_minitimeMon Oct 31, 2016 6:18 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Beyond the politically correct hype and feel-good, Obamacare had two purposes: to enrich insurance companies and keep the healthcare bubble alive, and to eventually destroy the health insurance market making it necessary to have a single payer government system of healthcare. The payout to the insurance giants (remember that the individual mandate was first a Republicsn idea) is a short term hook, like a shot of heroin, that is meant to weaken and ultimately destroy the insurance companies. I'm sure the CEOs of the insurance companies know this, maybe most of the shareholders do too, but they all get their payout so they could care less.

The number of blatant lies Obama told about the affordable care act is stunning. It was almost enough for me to jump on the conservative bandwagon back in 2010 or whenever that was it was being debated. If Trump wins then we can perhaps dismantle it; but the Supreme Court has already made it plain, twice, that they will go beyond legality to uphold Obamacare. It's clear something far more ideological is going on.



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PostSubject: Re: Health insurance Health insurance Icon_minitimeMon Oct 31, 2016 7:47 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
What in the living fuck.




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PostSubject: Re: Health insurance Health insurance Icon_minitimeMon Oct 31, 2016 9:59 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes that about sums it up.





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PostSubject: Patriotism Patriotism Icon_minitimeSat Oct 29, 2016 8:47 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I'm not "proud to be an American", I am not "an American", no one is. I am a human being who just happened through no choice of my own to be born here. Associating one's identity and self-image with a nation one had nothing to do with is sort of pathological, if you think about it.

But I am proud that America exists.



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Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Patriotism Patriotism Icon_minitimeSat Oct 29, 2016 11:32 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Well, I'm still a proud American. Sorry if that hurts your feelings. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Patriotism Patriotism Icon_minitimeSat Oct 29, 2016 1:54 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Taking personal pride in something you personally had no hand in at all is the road to insanity.



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Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Patriotism Patriotism Icon_minitimeSun Oct 30, 2016 1:27 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Taking personal pride in something you personally had no hand in at all is the road to insanity.

Oh, but I very much did have a hand in everything I am proud of regarding my pride in America.

I do not accept responsibility for anything I did not have a hand in nor do I accept any responsibility for anything regarding America that I am ashamed of and did my best to prevent from happening.

So I suppose you should rethink that last statement of yours.

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PostSubject: Re: Patriotism Patriotism Icon_minitimeSun Oct 30, 2016 6:00 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
You personally had a hand in creating America to be what it is?

Ok then.



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You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Patriotism Patriotism Icon_minitimeSun Oct 30, 2016 11:10 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I'm irritated to not be an American sometimes.



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PostSubject: Re: Patriotism Patriotism Icon_minitimeSun Oct 30, 2016 11:11 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
What have been the American battles and wars that you've fought, won, and lost, if I may ask so much, Sisyphus?

I do believe that a single citizen can have a structural impact - even someone who isn't a citizen.
One of my boy hood heroes has been Arnold Schwarzennegger, and I dont think Ive have ever been as amused by anything in politics as when he became Governator. And amusement is by far the best thing public Politics can be - if it takes itself rigidly seriously in the public eye, it is likely to have grave doubts about its future.

Politics is essentially the struggle of clans with enough power to build infrastructure of any kind. Social, geographical, transport, electrical, petrochemical, aerial or orbital, mineral, transactional, all this is about who can provide the Value. It is all about honor, and government is built to stand in the way.
But ideally, only as flashing lights and crossroads. Warning: cross here and you will be contended with by your opponent without other forces coming to your aid.

English international politics, the Empire of Balance.



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PostSubject: Re: Patriotism Patriotism Icon_minitimeSun Oct 30, 2016 2:12 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
What have been the American battles and wars that you've fought, won, and lost, if I may ask so much, Sisyphus?

I was involved in the Vietnam War.

But wars are not what builds respect for a nation. It are the good will ambassadors, those who visit other countries, try to learn a little of their language, learn their culture and customs, treat them with respect, etc.

I did those things. And I received respect in return. Not just respect of me but also of my being an American.

Wherever I was stationed during non-duty hours I was likely out and about mingling with the natives. And I never hesitated to mention that I was an American.

This was my role in building respect for America and Americans.
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PostSubject: Re: Patriotism Patriotism Icon_minitimeSun Oct 30, 2016 2:45 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Ah yes, murdering Vietnamese clearly helped contribute to what makes American pride. Thanks for clarifying.



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You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Patriotism Patriotism Icon_minitimeMon Oct 31, 2016 1:15 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Ah yes, murdering Vietnamese clearly helped contribute to what makes American pride. Thanks for clarifying.

You are such a pessimist!!!

I murdered no one. Don't be judging me based on your ignorance!

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PostSubject: Re: Patriotism Patriotism Icon_minitimeMon Oct 31, 2016 1:40 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Sisyphus wrote:
Capable wrote:
Ah yes, murdering Vietnamese clearly helped contribute to what makes American pride. Thanks for clarifying.

You are such a pessimist!!!

I murdered no one. Don't be judging me based on your ignorance!


You are being deliberately dense. But of course that is your right.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Patriotism Patriotism Icon_minitimeMon Oct 31, 2016 1:42 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Sisyphus wrote:
Capable wrote:
Ah yes, murdering Vietnamese clearly helped contribute to what makes American pride. Thanks for clarifying.

You are such a pessimist!!!

I murdered no one. Don't be judging me based on your ignorance!


You are being deliberately dense. But of course that is your right.

Would you please consider that it is you who is being dense by judging something before you know anything about it?

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PostSubject: Re: Patriotism Patriotism Icon_minitimeMon Oct 31, 2016 2:05 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Look, I am not going to be trolled on my own fucking site. Listen up.

I made the point that it is pathological to associate oneself and one's identity and pride with the place one just randomly happens to be born. When we are born somewhere, we had nothing at all to do with making that place what it is when we are born into it. People who go around feeling "patriotism" and "I am an American! Yeah!" are fucking stupid, they are just using national pride as a religion of the self to generate something resembling self-esteem and a sense of subjective meaning for themselves. I get why they do it, but it is stupid.

You replied by saying that you had a hand in everything about American that makes you proud. You neglect to list what it is about America that makes you proud, or how you had a hand in it, but whatever. I don't expect you to put in any serious effort here, so I will let that slide.

Then you, surprise, did apparently try to make such an effort, which is great, except that... your argument for how you had a hand in everything about America that makes you proud, was to say that you were a soldier in a war. And not just any war, but Viet fucking nam. Wow, really. I had no idea that the Vietnam war was the pinnacle of American pride and greatness, in fact I believe it is quite the other way around and example of what is most deplorable, stupid, reactionary, unthoughtful, petty and vain about America.

Your retort is that you didn't personally murder anyone. Ok, so you really weren't "in the war" the, is what you were saying? You just walked around in some jungles and never had to man up and take another life, like a good soldier would do? How the fuck does that make you more justified in your argument rather than less justified in it? Your unstated assumption is that it is better for you not to have killed anyone in that war than to have killed them, which leaves me wondering what the fuck you are using the war itself, in which many many people were killed, as some kind of paragon for what makes American pride?

And lastly, on top of it all, you accuse me of being a "pessimist" without offering a single reason or explanation of what you mean by that. So, again, I am not going to be trolled on my own fucking site. Start offering some real substance here or stick to that regard-troll Myki in his little corner (I think I will rename his topic The Insane Asylum, now that I am thinking of it).



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“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Patriotism Patriotism Icon_minitimeMon Oct 31, 2016 3:20 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Look, I am not going to be trolled on my own fucking site. Listen up.

Well, you are doing an excellent job without even trying. Just think how much more efficient you would be if you actually tried.

I made the point that it is pathological to associate oneself and one's identity and pride with the place one just randomly happens to be born. When we are born somewhere, we had nothing at all to do with making that place what it is when we are born into it. People who go around feeling "patriotism" and "I am an American! Yeah!" are fucking stupid, they are just using national pride as a religion of the self to generate something resembling self-esteem and a sense of subjective meaning for themselves. I get why they do it, but it is stupid.

So I am fucking stupid. Okay. But then I don't give a shit about your misinformed prejudgements. Yes, I am an American. I was born here. Yes, the military was my career. That was my choice. I am an Atheist and have no religion. I am who I am and I m proud of most of it. So you have no self pride. That's fine. So you take no pride in being a part of what you are. That's fine. But you know what? I don't believe that shit.

You replied by saying that you had a hand in everything about American that makes you proud. You neglect to list what it is about America that makes you proud, or how you had a hand in it, but whatever. I don't expect you to put in any serious effort here, so I will let that slide.

I gave you a fucking list but you ignored it because you have a Jane Fonda complex.

Then you, surprise, did apparently try to make such an effort, which is great, except that... your argument for how you had a hand in everything about America that makes you proud, was to say that you were a soldier in a war. And not just any war, but Viet fucking nam. Wow, really. I had no idea that the Vietnam war was the pinnacle of American pride and greatness, in fact I believe it is quite the other way around and example of what is most deplorable, stupid, reactionary, unthoughtful, petty and vain about America.

I didn't say that I had a hand in "everything about America". I said that I had a hand in many of the things that cause me to be a proud American. I have my limits. But I do what I can and I have no regrets.

Okay Jane. Bitch at me for following orders I had sworn to follow but say nothing about those who issued the orders (Kennedy and Johnson). You know why Jane didn't criticize Kennedy or Johnson? Because she was chicken shit. Either one of them would have had her killed if she actually spoke the truth.

You just don't fuckin' understand about standing true to your commitments, do you? I swore to follow the orders of my president and those in the chain of command who had authority over me. That takes a lot of fuckin' pride.

So you want to base my entire career in the Army on the fact that I spent 11 months in Vietnam. That is your choice. But you are totally wrong by doing so.

Your retort is that you didn't personally murder anyone. Ok, so you really weren't "in the war" the, is what you were saying? You just walked around in some jungles and never had to man up and take another life, like a good soldier would do? How the fuck does that make you more justified in your argument rather than less justified in it? Your unstated assumption is that it is better for you not to have killed anyone in that war than to have killed them, which leaves me wondering what the fuck you are using the war itself, in which many many people were killed, as some kind of paragon for what makes American pride?

So you are a fuckin' pacifist who will allow anyone to do anything they want to do to you and then bitch because no one protected you. Wow!! And it was you who accused me of murdering people without even a thread of knowledge simply bacause you listened to the bullshit Jane and the like were spouting off in order to get some public attention. It didn't matter to them who it hurt. It didn't matter how many lies they had to tell.

It was you who started the talk about the Vietnam war, not me. You were trying to put me one the spot with your pacifist ideals and you failed miserably. And I never said I didn't kill anyone. I said I never murdered anyone.

But you go ahead. No patriotism, no ancestral respect, no self respect, no sense of responsibility, no action, just words. Impossible ideals. Isn't it time to get real?

And lastly, on top of it all, you accuse me of being a "pessimist" without offering a single reason or explanation of what you mean by that. So, again, I am not going to be trolled on my own fucking site. Start offering some real substance here or stick to that regard-troll Myki in his little corner (I think I will rename his topic The Insane Asylum, now that I am thinking of it).

So you wish to ignore the truth rather than justify your own position. Fine. And I did mention "pessimist" in response to what you said. That is evidence enough.

It was you who was trolling by trying to denigrate me and show yourself superior. It didn't work. If you think I am here only to troll then perhaps you should suggest that I leave "Your" site. I am trying to have constructive discussion of Nietzsche's philosophy. If that isn't a good enough reason for me to be here then something needs to change.

It's your ball. You can throw it anywhere you want. But at least acknowledge that it was you who threw the ball.



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PostSubject: Re: Patriotism Patriotism Icon_minitimeMon Oct 31, 2016 3:22 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Sorry if I'm being a dick, I'm trying not to be. I agree that it's nice you partook in local cultures when you were abroad, that is indeed an approach that rings true of a proud American. But you haven't even said what your role in the war was, much less how that contributed to American pride. By most accounts the Vietnam war wasn't a source of American pride but a stain on that pride. The only possible argument I can think of to defend the Vietnam war in terms of American pride is that it represented an excess of American valuing, an excess that strayed into the irrational. I don't know what point you're trying to make with it because you haven't made it yet.



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“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Patriotism Patriotism Icon_minitimeMon Oct 31, 2016 3:24 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Just to be clear, this is what you said: "Oh, but I very much did have a hand in everything I am proud of regarding my pride in America."




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You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Patriotism Patriotism Icon_minitimeMon Oct 31, 2016 3:27 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I still don't see a point in this new post of yours that shows what it is about America that you're proud of or how you contributed to it. Swearing loyalty to follow orders while you're in the army might take pride, or in some cases im sure it takes the opposite of pride, namely a lack of it, but even so that still isn't making your case or refuting the point I made in the OP.



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“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Patriotism Patriotism Icon_minitimeMon Oct 31, 2016 3:28 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
And I'm not a pacifist, just to be clear.



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You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Patriotism Patriotism Icon_minitimeMon Oct 31, 2016 3:39 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
This place here is for philosophy. I'd like to see arguments that at least aspire to that.



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You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Patriotism Patriotism Icon_minitimeMon Oct 31, 2016 5:16 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Sorry if I'm being a dick, I'm trying not to be. I agree that it's nice you partook in local cultures when you were abroad, that is indeed an approach that rings true of a proud American. But you haven't even said what your role in the war was, much less how that contributed to American pride. By most accounts the Vietnam war wasn't a source of American pride but a stain on that pride. The only possible argument I can think of to defend the Vietnam war in terms of American pride is that it represented an excess of American valuing, an excess that strayed into the irrational. I don't know what point you're trying to make with it because you haven't made it yet.

Great! We are beginning to talk "with" each other rather than "to" each other.

The Vietnam War was a total disaster for the United States. I thought and still believe that it was a very stupid war. But Kennedy and Johnson wanted the war for personal reasons. Kennedy to make up for his failure with Cuba and Johnson so he could make lots of millions of dollars.

We had no right being over there. The reasons told to the American people why the war was necessary were all lies. We started the war, not the Vietnamese. But lots of Americans made millions of dollars from it so in their opinion it was a good thing.

I mean, they were putting American soldiers in harm's way so they could make a buck. They didn't see any problem with that as long as they didn't have to go over there.

To think that I am proud to have served in Vietnam is an error. I simply did what I had sworn to do - comply with the orders of the president. All of us felt that way.

To suggest that we were combating Communism was the biggest lie of all.

I didn't have a job when I was in Vietnam. My skill was not needed. I was sent there in 1970 only because I hadn't been there yet.

But I did an excellent job at staying alive so that I could return to the USA after my tour of duty.
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PostSubject: Re: Patriotism Patriotism Icon_minitimeMon Oct 31, 2016 5:19 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Just to be clear, this is what you said: "Oh, but I very much did have a hand in everything I am proud of regarding my pride in America."


Excellent. Now please read it over and over again without adding words or removing any of my words. Pay special attention to "... everything I am proud of ..."

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PostSubject: Re: Patriotism Patriotism Icon_minitimeMon Oct 31, 2016 5:30 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Sisyphus wrote:
I didn't have a job when I was in Vietnam. My skill was not needed. I was sent there in 1970 only because I hadn't been there yet.

But I did an excellent job at staying alive so that I could return to the USA after my tour of duty.

I like this warstory.



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PostSubject: Re: Patriotism Patriotism Icon_minitimeMon Oct 31, 2016 5:31 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
I still don't see a point in this new post of yours that shows what it is about America that you're proud of or how you contributed to it. Swearing loyalty to follow orders while you're in the army might take pride, or in some cases im sure it takes the opposite of pride, namely a lack of it, but even so that still isn't making your case or refuting the point I made in the OP.

We will find it difficult to gain full agreement here. America isn't only about how badly my government fucked up by starting the Vietnam War. It goes so much further than that.

It has to do with an area of land that is governed in accordance to standards established by its founding fathers. Freedom from a lot of the oppressions that people of other nations have to live with.

My Army service was only a small part of my life. Freedom has always been a part of my life. And I live by the code tht I should not make promises I cannot keep. Therefore my pride in having been an honorable soldier.

So I still must insist that one who has served their country has a right to be proud, even if they did not agree with the laws of the politicians of the time.
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PostSubject: Re: Patriotism Patriotism Icon_minitimeMon Oct 31, 2016 5:32 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
And I'm not a pacifist, just to be clear.

Okay. I was just testing you.
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PostSubject: Re: Patriotism Patriotism Icon_minitimeMon Oct 31, 2016 5:36 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
This place here is for philosophy. I'd like to see arguments that at least aspire to that.

I am doing my best. There is, in my mind, a philosophy of taking responsibility for our thoughts, words, and deeds. There is a philosophy of self-realization and self-actualization.

Your philosophy gave you inspiration to start the thread on patriotism. I disagreed with your conclusion. This is all based in our philosophy of life.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: The Philosophers

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:13 am

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PostSubject: People People Icon_minitimeSun Nov 20, 2016 2:14 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I officially fucking hate people.



Not all of them, just most.



(The few who are worthy of not being hated, are truly great.)



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You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: People People Icon_minitimeSun Nov 20, 2016 3:15 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
I officially fucking hate people.



Not all of them, just most.



(The few who are worthy of not being hated, are truly great.)

Come to Canada, theres less of em here.



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PostSubject: Re: People People Icon_minitimeSun Nov 20, 2016 3:21 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
Capable wrote:
I officially fucking hate people.



Not all of them, just most.



(The few who are worthy of not being hated, are truly great.)

Come to Canada, theres less of em here.

Americans are ok. Weird and anti-philosophical, but ok.

The larger tragedy is that I ran out of alcohol, and can't get more because the stores don't open on Sundays...

Can you imagine, the Puritans landed at Plymouth rock in 16.. who the fuck cares blah blah, and now its 2016 and I still can't buy booze cause it's the "sabbath day". Haha.


Yeah, American is pretty fucking cool.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: People People Icon_minitimeSun Nov 20, 2016 3:35 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
[///deleted]



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PostSubject: Re: People People Icon_minitimeSun Nov 20, 2016 3:51 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
ive not yet said this to anyone
http://www.tzr.io/yarn-clip/a7e5da9c-51 ... 70ffef6fc8



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PostSubject: Re: People People Icon_minitimeSun Nov 20, 2016 3:56 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:
Capable wrote:
I officially fucking hate people.



Not all of them, just most.



(The few who are worthy of not being hated, are truly great.)

Come to Canada, theres less of em here.

Americans are ok. Weird and anti-philosophical, but ok.

The larger tragedy is that I ran out of alcohol, and can't get more because the stores don't open on Sundays...

Can you imagine, the Puritans landed at Plymouth rock in 16.. who the fuck cares blah blah, and now its 2016 and I still can't buy booze cause it's the "sabbath day". Haha.


Yeah, American is pretty fucking cool.



It is no doubt the country with the most contrasts. That alone could simply define it as the greatest as in the deepest, the strangest. China was perhaps in its young days a kind of US of magical travelers.



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PostSubject: Re: People People Icon_minitimeSun Nov 20, 2016 3:59 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Canada is my bitch.

I was born here, I live here, and I will die here.

America.



True American spirit: fuck everywhere else.

I think, if Clinton had won, mass suicides would have followed.


The electoral college is pure genius; "the people" do not elect, the 50 states elect. Fucking right. For better or worse.

America + UK + Russia = [future]



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“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: People People Icon_minitimeSun Nov 20, 2016 5:45 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I appreciate that attitude. Canada doesnt really do any work for the US though, rather the opposite, plus it seemingly has the future, if the earth warms further up. Thule. In the economic sense Canada is simply the Crown on the work of the Crown. Pure privilege; Socialism in the only form it can exist, as it existed in Holland in the cold war - a chosen element in capitalism, the pure excess. Plus Canadians liberated the Netherlands.... I'd never see them as inferior to Americans. But I realize the attitude is prevalent, even among Canadians, to consider them weaker. I just take James Cameron as already sufficient proof of that being some serious bullshit. Besides, Hockey is by far the most manly game of all of the ones that are popular on this continent. However:

"In Plato's Theages it is written: "Each one of us would like to be
master over all men, if possible, and best of all God." This attitude
must exist again.

Englishmen, Americans, and Russians

960 (1885-1886)

From now on there will be more favorable preconditions for more
comprehensive forms of dominion, whose like has never yet existed. And
even this is not the most important thing; the possibility has been
established for the production of international family unions whose task
will be to rear a master race, the future "masters of the earth"; --a
new, tremendous aristocracy, based on the severest self-legislation, in
which the will of philosophical men of power and artist-tyrants will be
made to endure for millennia--a higher kind of man who, thanks to their
superiority in will, knowledge, riches, and influence, employ democratic
Europe as their most pliant and supple instrument for getting hold of
the destinies of the earth, so as to work as artists upon "man" himself.
Enough: the time is coming when politics will have a different meaning.

5. The Great Human Being

966 (1884)

In contrast to the animals, man has cultivated an abundance of contrary
drives and impulses within himself: thanks to this synthesis, he is
master of the earth.-- Moralities are the expression of locally limited
orders of rank in his multifarious world of drives, so man should not
perish through their contradictions. Thus a drive as master, its
opposite weakened, refined, as the impulse that provides the stimulus
for the activity of the chief drive.

The highest man would have the greatest multiplicity of drives, in the
relatively greatest strength that can be endured. Indeed, where the
plant "man" shows himself strongest one finds instincts that conflict
powerfully (e. g., in Shakespeare), but are controlled.

6 . The Highest Man as Legislator of the Future
981 (Spring-Fall 1887)



Not to make men "better, " not to preach morality to them in any form, as
if "morality in itself," or any ideal kind of man, were given; but to
create conditions that require stronger men who for their part need, and
consequently will have, a morality (more clearly: a physical-spiritual
discipline) that makes them strong! " - N



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PostSubject: Re: People People Icon_minitimeSun Nov 20, 2016 5:48 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Indeed, the electoral college works like the brain forms a decision. Indeed it is the way of the future.



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PostSubject: Re: People People Icon_minitimeSun Nov 20, 2016 5:58 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Pertaining to your earlier question, as to how to move on from here, I had given my answer before you had requested - allow, after rigorous grooming, meritable sovereign nations to enter the Union as states, with a single electoral vote, and the full privileges and burdens effective through federal law. In fact this is the only logical answer I have to Parodites' question of how to move to the fourth phase from a few months back, when it was still looking like everything might collapse - yes, suicide rates would have skyrocketed, along with murders and war casualties, and I feel strongly she might not even have survived the first year - plus Russia would have started open war in Syria, and her clique would have joined. Now, we see that Trumps plans can be pushed through and plan 1 he always had was building shit. Things like bridges arent simple tools, they are the mightiest symbols mankind has at his disposal, symbols of his might to cross the abyss, to negate nothingness.

People Tdih-may24-HD_still_624x352

It's been a good while since America erected a respectable building. An edifice worthy of her structural integrity.



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PostSubject: Re: People People Icon_minitimeMon Nov 21, 2016 12:15 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:
Capable wrote:
I officially fucking hate people.

Not all of them, just most.

(The few who are worthy of not being hated, are truly great.)

Come to Canada, theres less of em here.

Americans are ok. Weird and anti-philosophical, but ok.

The larger tragedy is that I ran out of alcohol, and can't get more because the stores don't open on Sundays...

Can you imagine, the Puritans landed at Plymouth rock in 16.. who the fuck cares blah blah, and now its 2016 and I still can't buy booze cause it's the "sabbath day". Haha.

Yeah, American is pretty fucking cool.

Move to Georgia. You can still buy moonshine from the country sheriff after church service on Sunday.
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PostSubject: Re: People People Icon_minitimeMon Nov 21, 2016 12:18 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
Indeed, the electoral college works like the brain forms a decision. Indeed it is the way of the future.

We have always had the electoral college in the USA. There is absolutely no reason to change anything. (Even though I would prefer election by popular vote.)








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PostSubject: Favorite Beethoven Symphonies Favorite Beethoven Symphonies Icon_minitimeWed Nov 30, 2016 3:02 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I'll start.


No. 2.



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You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Favorite Beethoven Symphonies Favorite Beethoven Symphonies Icon_minitimeWed Nov 30, 2016 11:45 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
ELO - Roll Over Beethoven










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PostSubject: Capable's Film Corner for Honesty Capable's Film Corner for Honesty Icon_minitimeWed Oct 19, 2016 6:57 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I went through five Google search pages in looking for a simple review of this new Ghostbusters remake, an honest review that takes into account the genuine dislike of how they remade this movie with all women.. still can't find one. It's a flood of basically the same story: "if you dislike this movie you're a sexist". Maybe we should have said, if you take a beloved classic film with a huge cult following and deliberately fuck with it, and make it blatant that's what our doing, then you have no right to complain when people get pissed off.

They could have remade the film with one or two female characters and no one would have even noticed. Yet they did a huge and deliberate "fuck you" to the film series, which is strange since they are remaking that series. Why would you do a nice big fuck you to the very series you want to remake?

Let's say it went the other way... someone decides to remake Sex and the City but with four dudes. They're not gay, they're just four guys and it's called Sex and the City just like the original, and the premise is the same etc etc (I don't know what the premise is of Sex and the City, but let's say they basically copy it). What would the reaction be?

"That is sexist". So basically you have sexism against men either way: if they remake a film and replace all male roles with female roles, and if you don't like it, then you're sexist, but if they remake a film and replace all female roles with male roles that would be called sexist too. Lol.

The deeper thing here is that Ghostbusters is a typically male film. It appeals to boys and adult males, it has an overtly "male" tone and appeal. Sure women like it too, but basically the ethos of the movie is one that appeals first to men and second to everyone broadly. It's a story about some scientists fighting ghosts with cool energy guns and in cool suits with a cool car, I mean it doesn't get more quintessentially male appeal oriented than that. This is the same reason why comic books and super heroes have traditionally been male territory. It isn't rocket science, this is just where the appeal is.

Anyway, it's funny to see Google in on it too. After so many page searches and not finding a single honest commentary like the one I'm making now, especially considering how simple and honest this insight is, it's obvious that Google is suppressing pages that say basically what I'm saying here, and actively promoting pages that push the whole "you're a sexist!" like against anyone who doesn't fall over backwards to love this new Ghostbusters film. I saw this same thing with Google after the shitty Disney remake of Star Wars came out, every search result was blind syncophantism.

I'm not saying this new Ghostbusters is a bad movie, I haven't even seen it. Maybe it's great. But the point is that's the obvious and obviously deliberate genderism in the remake is going to cause people to get upset, which is the whole point, since they get to piss people off and then stand there and shame those people when they do exactly what you knew they were going to do when you deliberately genderized a cult classic film. Plus, you can't remake Ghostbusters, no matter the gender makeup. It's a classic for a reason. This goes to the heart of the same bullshit that people like Jar Jar Abrams pull when they remake great beloved classic films and try to just shamelessly appropriate the magic of the original to their own half-ass attempt. Yes the new Star Wars, Star Trek, Transformers, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and probably Ghostbusters too are entirely half-ass. Yes it's fucked up to deliberately genderize a film and then pretend like it's perfectly normal and you didn't even know that's why you're doing it that way (what's next, Transformers remake where it's literally "trans"-formers with every role played by a transgender person?), but the real grievance here is these shameless and totally half-ass attempts to appropriate the love for an original classic film or franchise. These people aren't fooling anyone. If you wanted to truly do justice to the originals then you would try a hell of a lot harder, and probably end up admitting that it's an impossible thing to do.

Edit: I'm renaming this thread Capable's Film Corner for Honesty. I will probably write more film-oriented commentary or reviews here at some point.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Capable's Film Corner for Honesty Capable's Film Corner for Honesty Icon_minitimeWed Oct 19, 2016 7:55 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Id been following news on this Ghostbusters for what feels like ten years, first it was just that Bill Murray wasn't going to be in it which means like a Godfather without Al Pacino or a Terminator without Arnie. So I was not going to watch it anyway, but then it turns out they've made it into a sexist and racist vehicle... it is of course sexist to attack a movie franchise with Gender as the only idea in mind - they're just wretches that made this. The complaints that I read now besides it being a very boring and bad movie, are also that the black womans part has been written as a kind of negro-slave.

As I say in a rap: fuck feminism in the asshole, double time it, triple upon it, just protect your motherfucking daughters.

BITCHEN & VIXEN NOW BOW TO VIGO THE KARPATHIAN





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PostSubject: Re: Capable's Film Corner for Honesty Capable's Film Corner for Honesty Icon_minitimeFri Nov 25, 2016 11:52 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Looks like a Deadwood reprise as a movie is in the works.


Fucking right.



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You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Capable's Film Corner for Honesty Capable's Film Corner for Honesty Icon_minitimeWed Dec 14, 2016 3:49 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The Shield:

(A few small spoilers)

This show is excellent. Vic is a character with significant depth and really all the major characters have good complexity and human-ness to them. The show focuses on the contradictions of each person and how this propels them forward to both good and bad ends. Vic is really interesting because he doesn't care for truth at all, he only cares for his own values; he totally subverts truth to the ends of his values, attempting to turn truth entirely into a means and never into an end. Despite how good he is at this, an even perfect attempt at doing that is going to start to break apart one's reality and we see the cracks slowly spreading through his reality, the consequences of his badass heroic attempt to subvert truth for the sake of his own self-valuing. The tragic dimension comes in where he is unable to foresee certain subtler consequences of his choices, more generally of his method, and as his excess is ramping up over time (I am currently in the middle of season 2) this tragic dimension will only grow.

The show reveals that the only way to successfully manage a method such as Vic's, one of heroic self-valuing without regard to truth, would be to also have a very firm control over one's own excess, and yet it is his excess that makes him able to self-value like he does. And he isn't stupid by any means, he is very smart and knows how to slide through even the toughest situations through acts of sheer will and human-relating. He is so 'political' that he is like the anti-politician: he would never be able to value his own methods and means when they would be used for ends outside the scope of his own values, which includes a significant breadth of humanity and moral sentiment. The line between what he values and what he does not value is near absolute, and he would never compromise that line except for one of his own values. In other words he can never be bought or corrupted.

In season 2 I am beginning to see the quality of the show's writing dip just a little bit. It's a small dip but still noticeable given the superb writing of the first season. But even as the writing is slipping just a little bit, the tension is being ramped up, so I notice there is a slight trade off of internal consistency for the sake of added intensity; for example, Vic decides not to bust the mob's money train because he wants to take it down on his own with his team and keep all the money... that doesn't really fit with his character, as a member of his own team points out, but it does increase and stretch out the tension in the plot. And at least by acknowledging the inconsistency the show is attempting to work it logically into the plot, most likely we are supposed to read it as Vic is starting to slip in his judgment due to all the pressure against his values, notably from his wife and kids being absent and from the hit put out against Vic and his team. Yet this angle doesn't really work, because we see Vic would rather take time to stake out and plan a heist of this money train rather than work on finding the Mexican drug dealer who has put out hits on himself and his strike force team... this reveals a shallowness that isn't really a part of Vic's character no matter how much stress he is under. In fact, the added stress would normally propel him more into catching the drug dealer, more into a "moral certainty" that cannot be compromised, but instead we see him basically ignoring the drug dealer and not even worrying about him, in order instead to keep flirting with women, working mundane cases and planning a heist that has no real-world value or good except for enriching his own pockets. It just doesn't make sense even if we assume he isn't really himself right now.

The other side of it is that he basically leaves his family unprotected except for a "security system" and a few private investigators keeping an eye on them. Probably Vic is thinking to use the money from the heist to pay for the 24/7 protection for his family, but the heist is by no means certain and still a month or two away. Plus he isn't the sort of person who would just pay someone else to protect his kids-- Vic would go storm through the gates of where the drug dealer is and put a bullet in his head, neat and clean. We keep hearing him say things like "don't worry, [to his team] we will find him before he finds us", but then basically doing nothing to actually find him (the highly dangerous drug dealer who put out a hit on him).

So yeah, a slight problem in the internal consistency of the writing. But as I said, the trade off is that the suspense and tension are through the roof. As I keep watching I'll have more to say. Overall this show is among the best I've seen.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Capable's Film Corner for Honesty Capable's Film Corner for Honesty Icon_minitimeWed Dec 14, 2016 4:12 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I've seen similar happen with other good shows, namely Deadwood and Boardwalk Empire. These two shows have perfect first seasons, from start to finish absolutely flawless, and then season two starts to unravel at the seams in small ways. I think it was Aristotle who talked about how the plot should flow naturally from the characters and tensions should appear and resolve with perfect internal consistency given the nature of the characters and situations. I think the problem is maybe that the writers can do this for the first season, but after that it's more up in the air as to how many more seasons they will have, therefore sort of like an author writing a novel but the author isn't able to know in advance how many chapters his novel will be able to be, therefore it's impossible to sustain perfect internal consistency from start to finish. The only sure thing is the first season, so that one gets written perfectly.



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Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Capable's Film Corner for Honesty Capable's Film Corner for Honesty Icon_minitimeFri Dec 23, 2016 1:38 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Movie: Inglorious Basterds

Does anyone know if this movie is any good? I am considering watching it, but not sure if I should waste my time or not. Thoughts would be welcome.



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You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Capable's Film Corner for Honesty Capable's Film Corner for Honesty Icon_minitimeSat Dec 24, 2016 5:37 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I think its by far Tarantino's worst.

Its in no way relevant to the suffering brought on by the nazis, and yet tries to act as a vengenace-flick. It offers only insult to the victims, it acts as if the war was a big and rather painless joke. Tarantino does not have the darkness/depth of soul to address this type of bleakness.

Nevertheless there are some scenes that are plain genius. Nothing against the man, the director - he isnt to blame for not being able to address the true horror and true resilience of another world. It's not a horrible movie by any stretch, just worthless as a warmovie.

Django Unchained is a better attempt at morality. And the most recent one, Hateful 8, is to my mind an awesome remake of Reservoir Dogs.






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PostSubject: Odin Odin Icon_minitimeSat Nov 05, 2016 6:59 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
https://media.giphy.com/media/3osxYmUhB ... /giphy.gif

Hi-D asked me about Odin, and Odin does not hesitate to answer her. Odin likes the forthright and bold, and those who test everything on themselves. No virgin can know Odin, nor perhaps can a man who has not found his match in a fight, or who has never vanquished a strong opponent. Odin lives only in the environment of experience. Most of all the experience deep and fulfilling enough that it creates the possibility of solitude. To be most comfortable when alone in the rain, I believe this is a common quality among men of Odin. I was clearly born to this god as my earliest memories involve a lot of waiting for the rain, and pure bliss during the rain. I could sit for hours on end simply listening to the rain washing against the window, and of course nights of lying awake with fire in my heart staring at the tent roof in the dark as the rain flagellates the canvas. Explosive happiness at the mere sound of an element. Odin is a happiness to those that aren't bound by their mind, but drawn out by it, fair to say; those whose mind is equally in the thunder as it is in the brain - and that goes, I would say, for all great minds.



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- Thucydides


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PostSubject: Re: Odin Odin Icon_minitimeMon Nov 07, 2016 9:02 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
FC wrote:
Odin lives only in the environment of experience.

This I like. Is there more to share?
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PostSubject: Re: Odin Odin Icon_minitimeSat Jan 14, 2017 1:46 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
A rather insolent thread, my words were too familiar and pompous. I inserted a storm.

and yet the definition isn't entirely without merit. Another storm:

https://media.giphy.com/media/CufLv1T7gIPC/giphy.gif

Odin Giphy

"this I like" - does that mean the rest you dont like?
If that is the case then there is little more to share, as the thunder and the rain and the wind, these are Odins elements, as well as the snow. Bright weather is Tyrs realm, or Baldur, or Freya.

Or even Heimdall who guards the bridge beyond the storm.

Odin 766616b5b5b3e2d9897543ca8f586f17

Odin and Skadi perpetuate the path of ice on which only the truly balanced dont fall. Nietzsche said Wotan is the god of bad weather, and this is the case

Odin
Wotan Woden, good fellow
Wuotan, woeden: raging.

Wind god, wolf god, Ragnarok is past, and from your bones we now draw runes, o Odin, and we awaken thee, into our Aeon, hail Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche!

[Value Ontology] Poseidon give us a Shell, an Ornament -

Yes, yes,
the wind is never fully stilled. Odin lingers in the seeds of the ash
as silent but imminent potential, to use a roman term, or Kraft - Macht - zur -- (stormen, woeden...)

Die Macht zum Untergehen
the power to go down.

This has been the silent power behind Nietzsche's theory: the already fulfilled quest for the heights, for existence-pure: in Bismarck Nietzsche relied, not in Wodan, as in Wodan is no will to power, but rather the climatological fact of change of power.

Control change, control rage, control magic.

Runes are the paths of change.

Draw a rune on a stone with a good, strong edge.

Ha! Now you have drawn a rune.
So it begins.

What?

Rune-drawing.




Fate: the sharp edge of time



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PostSubject: Re: Odin Odin Icon_minitimeSat Jan 14, 2017 2:29 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
This is why we prefer to draw runes on a tree that's alive and flexible enough that it can flow around our rune, and perpetuate it in time, not just in mind - which is beyond time, above it, it can contain whole centuries in a moment and produce a new one. But a tree just is, and projects, inwards into peoples hearts from the outside. We breathe the rune that the cloaked man carved in a tree. Such is life!

Being is like wind - it can never be still.
Like 0 degrees Kelvin is not possible, the absence of Odin is only relative.
the presence of Odin however is absolute.

Ha -
Nature likes to hide
Odin speaks in riddles
Zeus laughs. Poseidon is angry. Hades ...

https://bohemianweasel.files.wordpress. ... .jpg?w=495

"drew the shortest straw"...

As I said. Fate is a rune, it has sharp hooks in the road.



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PostSubject: Re: Odin Odin Icon_minitimeSun Jan 15, 2017 12:08 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Hrimnir's daughter, Heidr or Hi-D

When asked about my weather inclinations, Odin frightens me for the most part. Odin confronts me more often than not

into a panic. I am a Sol worshipper with a penchant for calming forces, gentle warm rains, cool breezes, large snowflakes

that flutter down in slow motion. Shoes offend my senses.


Read that Odin gave sight to Heidr who told him of Baldur's eventual

demise. What I find interesting is my likely alignment with Baldur based solely on his described traits before it was

tied to my actual given name wherein Heidr foresees so specifically Baldur as if there was an established relationship

of sorts between Baldur and Heidr that went unmentioned, a friendship or something even more intimate. My romantic

silliness or there's way more going on than meets the eye. I know my God favors me greatly, lives a richer existence

as I am enriched. Smiles on me throughout the days and curses me throughout the nights. A strange relationship of love

and obsession.
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PostSubject: Re: Odin Odin Icon_minitimeSun Jan 15, 2017 3:34 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
How beautiful! Thank you for sharing.



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PostSubject: Re: Odin Odin Icon_minitimeSun Jan 15, 2017 5:39 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I like what you say of Odin, and fright. Surely this sensibility will please him. It is said of him that he comes to favor only rare men, those who are not afraid of being out-cast. One can not be favored by Odin as an adapted person, one has to live life in exile or kingship, either/or, or alternatingly, or perhaps both at once. Odin has been compared with the will to power itself in some places.

But the greatest friend to Odin is Apollon !
Hail thee, Bright One!

Odin Two

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... i_8140.jpg

Wolves guard Apollons winter home in Hyperborea, where his mother was from.

“Let us face ourselves. We are Hyperboreans; we know very well how far off we live. 'Neither by land nor by sea will you find the way to the Hyperboreans'—Pindar already knew this about us. Beyond the north, ice, and death—our life, our happiness. We have discovered happiness, we know the way, we have found the exit out of the labyrinth of thousands of years. Who else has found it? Modern man perhaps? 'I have got lost; I am everything that has got lost,' sighs modern man. This modernity was our sickness: lazy peace, cowardly compromise, the whole virtuous uncleanliness of the modern Yes and No. … Rather live in the ice than among modern virtues and other south winds! We were intrepid enough, we spared neither ourselves nor others; but for a long time we did not know where to turn with our intrepidity. We became gloomy, we were called fatalists. Our fatum—abundance, tension, the damming of strength. We thirsted for lightning and deeds and were most remote from the happiness of the weakling, 'resignation.' In our atmosphere was a thunderstorm; the nature we are became dark—for we saw no way. Formula for our happiness: a Yes, a No, a straight line, a goal.” [Nietzsche, The Antichrist]

It should be clear that Odin and Apollon both are gods and friends to the Shaman.
And this gives to understand the difficult, painful and slow initiation process.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
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Re: The Philosophers

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:18 am

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PostSubject: Exceptional Quotes Exceptional Quotes Icon_minitimeWed Jun 08, 2016 9:03 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
"When a being is vigorous, it projects loftiness in its own future without having to consciously undertake this; this is nature itself. It wants more experience of itself, which means it can neither stay the same nor cease to exist."


--Jakob



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Exceptional Quotes Exceptional Quotes Icon_minitimeTue Aug 09, 2016 11:14 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Walk beside me and be my friend.

Albert Camus
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PostSubject: Re: Exceptional Quotes Exceptional Quotes Icon_minitimeSat Nov 26, 2016 8:19 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The magic works through you
Not beside you
Not around you
Not for you
Through you
Choose your stage
Do your dance
Stake your claim


The Universe


awesome



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Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel


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PostSubject: Re: Exceptional Quotes Exceptional Quotes Icon_minitimeSat Nov 26, 2016 8:24 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The only true law is that which leads to freedom.

Richard Bach, Jonathan Livingston Seagull



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Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Exceptional Quotes Exceptional Quotes Icon_minitimeSat Nov 26, 2016 9:50 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I have a problem with the word "law". I am an anarchist.
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PostSubject: Re: Exceptional Quotes Exceptional Quotes Icon_minitimeSat Nov 26, 2016 11:16 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Sisyphus wrote:
I have a problem with the word "law". I am an anarchist.
Agreed. I've become a lot more anarchistic myself recently.



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“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Exceptional Quotes Exceptional Quotes Icon_minitimeSat Nov 26, 2016 1:39 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Im a constitutionalist, in that I believe law is required to keep people from making more laws.

The entire point of the constitution, leading up the article 9, is a resistance against government and central power.

So the law of the USA is originally this: you let me be or I shoot you in the head

very good law in fact.



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- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: Exceptional Quotes Exceptional Quotes Icon_minitimeSat Nov 26, 2016 1:47 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
My stance is that every human that has force-applied into another humans bloodstream a shot of brain-chemistry altering drugs, must be put against the wall and executed. Thats the most merciful stance I can come up with for the pharma-gestapo.

The absolute worst are the people that think they are doing it for the persons own good. I cant express what I wish to do to them, for their own good.



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PostSubject: Re: Exceptional Quotes Exceptional Quotes Icon_minitimeSat Nov 26, 2016 3:55 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Indeed it is almost impossible to fathom those depraved depths.

A constitutionalist is a good way of understanding anarchy principle, I think.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Exceptional Quotes Exceptional Quotes Icon_minitimeSat Nov 26, 2016 4:48 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yeah sure, it's the lust for freedom to put it bluntly. The pathos is of ruggedness and comparable if it isnt European punkrockers, but anarchy nominally aims for the absence of central power - whereas Constitutionalism has power as a symbol to sanction its violence against those that infringe on the liberty of being.

Before these Koch brothers or whatever turned it into such a travesty wth Sarah Palin for gods sake, Libertarianism always had my sympathy. I like Ron Pauls consistency.

It will be amusing to start it up again and cover Trumps flank on the Right. We can show that Trump is in fact very moderate and placating.



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PostSubject: Re: Exceptional Quotes Exceptional Quotes Icon_minitimeSat Nov 26, 2016 5:23 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes precisely. It can be sufficient simply to say "you know Trump never said Mexicans are rapists right?". The religion of anti-trump is as fragile and unreal as it is ugly.



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“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Exceptional Quotes Exceptional Quotes Icon_minitimeSat Nov 26, 2016 5:23 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fuck Palin and dumbass goons everywhere.



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You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Exceptional Quotes Exceptional Quotes Icon_minitimeSat Nov 26, 2016 11:45 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Sisyphus wrote:
I have a problem with the word "law". I am an anarchist.
Agreed. I've become a lot more anarchistic myself recently.

But I'm not going to accept responsibility for that. Just sayin'.
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PostSubject: Re: Exceptional Quotes Exceptional Quotes Icon_minitimeSat Nov 26, 2016 11:47 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
Im a constitutionalist, in that I believe law is required to keep people from making more laws.

The entire point of the constitution, leading up the article 9, is a resistance against government and central power.

So the law of the USA is originally this: you let me be or I shoot you in the head

very good law in fact.

Yeah, but things have changed since then. We are not allowed to shoot people any more.
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PostSubject: Re: Exceptional Quotes Exceptional Quotes Icon_minitimeMon Nov 28, 2016 3:27 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Sisyphus wrote:
I have a problem with the word "law". I am an anarchist.

I understand what you mean. I also have a problem with some words. One of them is being labeled a feminist when I am simply for rights on both sides, both men and women alike. Like many words, it has taken on a muddy connotation. We don't wish to see individuals, only "sardines in a sardine can".
What word then would you substitute for "law"?

Laws are logical, are they not?
Granted, they are not always logical or reasonable but if we do away with the more logical/reasonable ones, how long might our species survive?

Granted, laws can sometimes appear to be "fickle" -- to name two, the prohibition law and the abortion law.
But on second glance, we can see the wisdom of overthrowing the first to give way for the second though nothing is black and white...and there is wisdom and practicality there - I almost shudder to say.




___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Exceptional Quotes Exceptional Quotes Icon_minitimeMon Nov 28, 2016 7:03 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Arcturus Descending wrote:
Sisyphus wrote:
I have a problem with the word "law". I am an anarchist.

I understand what you mean. I also have a problem with some words. One of them is being labeled a feminist when I am simply for rights on both sides, both men and women alike. Like many words, it has taken on a muddy connotation. We don't wish to see individuals, only "sardines in a sardine can".

I have never considered you a feminist. And I agree, equality amongst all people.

What word then would you substitute for "law"?

I have none. Well, maybe "limiters".

Laws are logical, are they not?

No, not always. Anymore, not mostly.

Granted, they are not always logical or reasonable but if we do away with the more logical/reasonable ones, how long might our species survive?

I will admit that without laws many, perhaps even most, people would not do the right thing. Ten commandments were good enough for the Jews for a while. "Harm none" pretty much covers the need.

Granted, laws can sometimes appear to be "fickle" -- to name two, the prohibition law and the abortion law.
But on second glance, we can see the wisdom of overthrowing the first to give way for the second though nothing is black and white...and there is wisdom and practicality there - I almost shudder to say.

What right does any government have to tell me what I can and cannot drink? What right does any government have to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her body?

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PostSubject: Re: Exceptional Quotes Exceptional Quotes Icon_minitimeMon Dec 05, 2016 3:30 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
“People do ridiculous things, all the time.”
- Al Schmidt, City Commissioner


http://billypenn.com/2016/12/05/the-phi ... ch-at-all/



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PostSubject: Re: Exceptional Quotes Exceptional Quotes Icon_minitimeTue Dec 06, 2016 2:51 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
“People do ridiculous things, all the time.”
- Al Schmidt, City Commissioner


This is true. So the government says, "Let's make a law forbidding these things."

So now we have people doing ridiculous things but now they are also criminals.
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PostSubject: Re: Exceptional Quotes Exceptional Quotes Icon_minitimeThu Aug 10, 2017 12:58 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
"I knew that if I hated high school, I was really gonna hate Vietnam."
--Jimmy Iovine



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PostSubject: Re: Exceptional Quotes Exceptional Quotes Icon_minitimeThu Aug 10, 2017 10:41 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
"I knew that if I hated high school, I was really gonna hate Vietnam."
--Jimmy Iovine

Wait till you start looking at governments.




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PostSubject: 8.21.2017 8.21.2017 Icon_minitimeSat Aug 12, 2017 7:13 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I will be driving to see the solar eclipse in totality. It is not an option to not do this.

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11 1


Yes.



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Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: 8.21.2017 8.21.2017 Icon_minitimeSat Aug 12, 2017 11:47 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
I will be driving to see the solar eclipse in totality. It is not an option to not do this.

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Yes.

Good for you!!! I considered it but opted out. But I am still leaving room to change my mind. It really wouldn't be that much of a drive for me.
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PostSubject: Re: 8.21.2017 8.21.2017 Icon_minitimeMon Aug 14, 2017 6:25 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
8.21.2017 Total-solar-eclipse

https://2img.net/h/www.justinngphoto.co ... clipse.jpg
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You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: 8.21.2017 8.21.2017 Icon_minitimeMon Aug 14, 2017 11:47 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Great picture. Thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: 8.21.2017 8.21.2017 Icon_minitimeSun Aug 27, 2017 10:53 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I didn't go, because there were storms. I was going to drive about 5 hours to see it, but would have needed to drive 8-9 hours instead, to get clear skies, which was not doable. But I still saw a partial eclipse. It wasn't that impressive though.



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“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: 8.21.2017 8.21.2017 Icon_minitimeSun Aug 27, 2017 11:23 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yeah, many things in life, if not edible, caressible, or fuckable really are very impressible.

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PostSubject: Re: 8.21.2017 8.21.2017 Icon_minitimeSun Aug 27, 2017 11:25 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The above should read: "... aren't very impressible."
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PostSubject: Re: 8.21.2017 8.21.2017 Icon_minitimeSun Aug 27, 2017 11:30 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Haha yeah I got that.




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PostSubject: Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Icon_minitimeMon Aug 14, 2017 4:36 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Git more money, more money, git more money more money. Lol.

Gangsters and drug dealers are infinitely more honest than the Fed Reserve. The worst crime is not to sell drugs to people who want drugs (value), but to invent money out of thin air without reference to value made.



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“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Icon_minitimeMon Aug 14, 2017 4:38 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
This,



Must learn how to judge and pass sentence upon this,

Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Federal-Reserve-Dee



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You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Icon_minitimeMon Aug 14, 2017 5:46 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fuck. I like the way you say that.



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PostSubject: Re: Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Icon_minitimeMon Aug 14, 2017 6:07 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Ive been listening to some rap now with the money keyword -
obviously when I got into it in the nineties that was the wrong thing to say,
to be commercial was evil -
haha.
Not that I ever wrote a single verse talking down on money or those who try to get it -
I just avoid the subject, until I started working with Pezer.
These lyrics we started writing last year, thats some juicy stuff, I cant quote them here as I still need to put them on record.
But thats when I awoke and found myself able to write some real hiphop.

If rap is to do what you say, its got to up its game.
So let analyze some money hounding hiphop for its merits and deficits.

What can be used, what needs still to be invented.

Ill use pairs or sets pertaining to a particular theme.


Theme 1:
Paris
as a signifier of serious, severe, post-ghetto wealth - the lure of European royalism as an expression of superior standards of prosperity - or if not superior, simply more enviable. "Player with a passport".

A) A$AP Rocky - Goldie
B) Kanye West and Jay-Z - Niggas in Paris

A

B




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PostSubject: Re: Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Icon_minitimeMon Aug 14, 2017 6:19 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes definitely. I like how Kanye is turning rap toward a more complex political position. He and others need to step up and support Trump more. Then there is another rapper I can't remember who, who was interviewed about black lives matter and said he hated them. Lol.



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“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Icon_minitimeMon Aug 14, 2017 6:20 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I want to see major label rap songs about how to tear down the Fed Reserve and return money and currency coining to the people. About how money is representation of value made, and about how selling drugs and hoes is infinitely more noble than selling treasury securities.



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“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Icon_minitimeMon Aug 14, 2017 6:30 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
But selling treasury securities isn't bad either. Creating money without reference to value made can still be justified if in reference to future value to be made. What is bad is when this gets out of control and vampirizes its own future-valuing.

Modern leftist financials are about this vampirizing. Sucking the future of life for the sake of immediate gain.



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“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Icon_minitimeMon Aug 14, 2017 7:23 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes, I think taxation is essentially the problem that stands in the way of philanthropy, which is what Id cal investment in the production of actual valuables.

If only the government would let its money work on the market a bit more intelligently, there would not be a need for taxation at all.
There should be government agencies that simply exist to invest in foreign markets so as to both stimulate the desired industries and to increase the national budget. Im sure this is being done, but it doesn't seem to be going well. I suspect that this is because of a reluctance to invest in foreign economies, especially the Chinese one. Its been successful with Japan, but China is considered an enemy - whereas China does use this strategy on the US, where it buys up its ports where it can. Of course the Chinese are more protective of their own stuff, but on the other hand I am certain that there are ways in which they would welcome American capital. It would have to be invested in a sector that is meant to grow with American expertise.

Investment is very hard to make profitable inside ones own holdings - the American economy may have become too convoluted, coiled up to reduce its deficits. It should pool up in several tectonic knots of the world economy, and rather than use military threats, use investment strategies in South America. There is a lot to be gained there, if it is approached so that it can respond; in a chivalrous manner, threatening with respect, as Snoop did to New York to soothe their anger.



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PostSubject: Re: Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Icon_minitimeTue Aug 15, 2017 12:00 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
Git more money, more money, git more money more money. Lol.

Gangsters and drug dealers are infinitely more honest than the Fed Reserve. The worst crime is not to sell drugs to people who want drugs (value), but to invent money out of thin air without reference to value made.

Yes, I too like the way you said that.

But there are many who believe they were born for the government to take care of. What can the government do but create money to give to these worthless people? Did that sound harsh? I wish I could say "Sorry" but I can't; it would be a lie.



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PostSubject: Re: Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Icon_minitimeThu Aug 17, 2017 10:52 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The depth of money is not really understood. Existential depth. Money concentrates valuing power in the same way that love does. Money is a pressure on the soul which evokes power and will. It would be impossible to do something for money that we did not already want to do.



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“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Icon_minitimeThu Aug 17, 2017 11:05 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Reminded me of the quote; I will likely misquote it and I don't remember who said it:

Man cannot do that which his soul will not allow.

If earned honestly, money can oftentimes be used to determine a man's worth. To steal my money is basically destroying a part of my gross worth.

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PostSubject: Re: Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Icon_minitimeThu Aug 17, 2017 11:32 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Theft is indeed a grave sin. This is why many businesses fail. Greed is fine so long as one contains it and prevents it from causing one to steal. When greed leads to theft, greed is death personified.

The impulse to steal is a psychological ruination. It has causes but those are less important. Having causes is not very interesting, since everything has them.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Icon_minitimeFri Aug 18, 2017 12:00 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
Theft is indeed a grave sin. This is why many businesses fail. Greed is fine so long as one contains it and prevents it from causing one to steal. When greed leads to theft, greed is death personified.

The impulse to steal is a psychological ruination. It has causes but those are less important. Having causes is not very interesting, since everything has them.

Yeah, the older I get the more I am offended by theft, doesn't matter who is doing it or their reasons why. (Although I would make exceptions for the extremely poor.) And this includes scamming people out of their money.
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PostSubject: Re: Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Icon_minitimeTue Aug 29, 2017 6:06 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster



Money is a symbol of the will to power Middle world between the necessity of acting and the necessity of knowing.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“A man is not great if he is not small, and he is not small if he is not great. Concepts flirt with the loss of their significance in the oscillation between ambiguous states, and this is in part the function and purpose of concepts.” -Primer on Meaning
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PostSubject: Re: Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Icon_minitimeTue Aug 29, 2017 11:22 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
There's not many places on this planet where a person needs no money in order to live equally with the rest of that society.

I don't produce my own food or manufacture any of my own clothing. I must somehow pay someone else for doing that for me.

But, money is only a means to an end, not an end in itself.

What good is the money if you are not going to use it?
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PostSubject: Re: Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Money is the beautiful flow of earthy value Icon_minitimeWed Sep 20, 2017 6:07 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:



Money is a symbol of the will to power Middle world between the necessity of acting and the necessity of knowing.


"Bank Roll Mafia".

Haha.




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PostSubject: Viking rituals Viking rituals Icon_minitimeThu Jun 21, 2018 12:54 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I'm interested in a phenomenon I learned about recently.

Medium and large branches, as well as small trunks, are arranged in a circular like fashion around a tree or small group of trees sorrounding an outcrop of rocks. A string of some sort having belonged to a personas is tied around one of the branches.

What do you think about this?
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PostSubject: Re: Viking rituals Viking rituals Icon_minitimeThu Jun 21, 2018 1:02 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Little other thought than that I want to do it.
Few things feel cleaner than working with such materials, and this sounds potent.

Unfortunately there are no rocks to speak of here, in this land below sea level -
and hardly any space to do such things in private.

What if any is the special purpose to this ritual?



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PostSubject: Re: Viking rituals Viking rituals Icon_minitimeThu Jun 21, 2018 1:39 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Unclear.
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PostSubject: Re: Viking rituals Viking rituals Icon_minitimeMon Jun 25, 2018 7:41 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
We'll have to find out in practice.



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PostSubject: Re: Viking rituals Viking rituals Icon_minitimeTue Jun 26, 2018 7:36 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Actually, it is some fuckfaces crowding on my shit. I am in the process of dismantling it.

I know enough about witchcraft to know that if a personal effect is involved, it is usually some kind of curse anyway. Plus the dudes I noticed working on it where skinny jean wearing hipster looking motherfuckers.
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PostSubject: Re: Viking rituals Viking rituals Icon_minitimeTue Jun 26, 2018 9:09 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
where is this?



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PostSubject: Re: Viking rituals Viking rituals Icon_minitimeTue Jun 26, 2018 1:36 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
A wood atop a hill.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
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Re: The Philosophers

Postby Destiny » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:29 pm

Bullshit.
what if you hate you
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Re: The Philosophers

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:32 pm

Destiny wrote:Bullshit.

An you are a mere subpocket, madam.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: The Philosophers

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:39 pm

the psychological phenomenon morality
Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:43 pm

Morality is impotence but still a form of will. It is alike to the will of a man with erectile dtysfunctioning to have an erection. A form of self-recognizing helplessness, from which a first conception of power, wholly erroneous because not grounded in power, is conceived. It is the vast difference between suffering and power.

Morality is as a plasma that screams I want to be solid.

Morality is therefore an infectious mass phenomenon. Everyone thinks of everyone else that they can and will enforce what they themselves can not, but want to. A vast displacement scheme at the top of with is a froth of disowned will which is harvested by whoever is willing and able to pose as a moral authority. But that is not the issue I want to describe; I mean to indicate the gap between morality and enforceable values.
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Re: the psychological phenomenon morality
Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:16 pm

Everyone I dare say, exceptions so few that they'd "confirm the rule", has a degree of this morality plasma in them.
I wish to emotionally access this plasma, which itself is not able to make itself felt in true emotions. Because it is a negative entity, a pure lack not grounded in a power to be quenched, a lack of something which indeed does not exist;
a lack born of a mental frame in which we are all brought up; language. The objectifying framework in which we operate as human lifeforms produces this illusion of an objectively enforced set of rules for pleasure-distribution.

Morality is thus grounded in our reliance on language. The absence of power to set values which we can personally enforce is the same as the reliance on our spoken languages. All of these are primitive tools inadequate to the spirits self-reliance. This is what morality is a yearning-for; spiritual self-reliance.

We can access this self-reliance only by forging a positive (as in, real, substantial) bond with the suffering which underlies morality; all good therapy attains this end. Disentangling us from our language-driven context, which often is a life's work, is the same as addressing the structure of our humanity which has not evolved adequately to be spiritually self-reliant.
We must pass, as a species, are passing now with what is here and what is coming, through the resistance the bulk of humanity has to experiencing this suffering consciously; morality is now being enforced at full force, at all cost, as it perceives itself as the only answer to a constantly pending hell (which is this "shadow", this absence of might).

The might that we do have as spirits is hidden well behind this veil of recognizing the suffering, as spirit is not concerned with the sort of power the lack of which produces morality; after all this power does fundamentally not exist.
Then what is the might of spirt? How does it exist?
Nietzsche puts it darkly: spirit is life that cuts into life, and so learns through pain. However it leaves out a part; the healing which spirit undertakes after it has (been) wounded.
This is life, this is spirit; the power to self-reconstitute, to draw the world into oneself from both the phenomenal realm outside and the pure fire of the inner crevice.

So morality can be abandoned when the power to self-reconstitute ("heal") is adopted as ones fundamental nature. This is an emotional process, deeply troubling and much more than that, satisfying. Such shamanism begins with creating emotions out of the plasma that yelps moral wishes in absence of true emotion; art, storytelling in true form, be it tragedy, comedy, cynicism, romantic nihilism (fatalism) or anything other than moralism, all help us to become self-reliant spirits. But at one point a decision has to be made, a knot cut; one must at one point show oneself ones own colours. However all moral life is too pale to show any colours. So there is a path which seems without reward, the dark night of the soul it is called, which leads up only to the point of getting sufficiently ill satisfied with ones approach to oneself so as to have a glimpse of ones spirit beyond ones approach to the self; in fact, the spirit is what approaches the self but must do so through the paths of the instincts.

The spirit speaks to the self through the waters of life, it has no other passage. Our emotions and our drives tend carry some of our spirit and much that is external to us. To make us lifeforms into self-reliant spiritforms, the spirit has to come to command these drives and emotions, walk as a dragon on the miasmic ground of the I-nor-not-I, and breathe its truths into our consciousness.

The building of this inner dragon is the meaning of this thread.
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Re: The Philosophers

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:39 pm

Who is the God of America?
Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:16 pm

I think the God of America is America.
The country is its own God.
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Re: Who is the God of America?
Postby Meno_ » Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:20 pm

I think other befits best because my choice would be 'none of the other's for which there is no category given, therefore maybe I really shouldn't have voted anyway by voting I negated myself choosing other , implying an other choice, is none of the other, other than the one I voted for!

Does that make sense?

You bet. It means that even if you are apathetic to vote in the most general sense, even then vote!

It almost reinforces the idea that voting is a duty, regardless of whether the choices are all inclusive, or mostly exclude some unknowns .
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Re: Who is the God of America?
Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:26 pm

Orbie with you its always, or almost always, I have to decide whether or not I am going to understand you. Mine it, what you say, for oraculous chimeras to pertain at my discretion to contexts I may have for you to synthesize so as for an image of truth to appear. Sometimes it is a disturbing image, often times there is a Marxist-Hegelic dialectic implicit in the base premises, the fatalitarian crux of the "-haft", which is the Dasein in your particular literatorics. At least there is a Dasein! I appreciate that.


Regardless. I left out a lot of options which are absolutely necessary for a fair questionnaire-opinion survey, namely first and foremost, the EARTH. Because like, Native Americans...

:-? :oops:
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Re: Who is the God of America?
Postby Silhouette » Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:52 am

Narcissus.
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Re: Who is the God of America?
Postby Meno_ » Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:05 pm

Vampire/Beauty/Beast : It is an inexplicable road, under and over ground, with variable and determinate gaze, that is consistent and inconsistent with others.
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Re: Who is the God of America?
Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:25 pm

I need you all to find another gear, people.

Narcissus is not a god, Sil.

Orbie, straightforward relativisms are, it seems to me, below you.
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Re: Who is the God of America?
Postby Silhouette » Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:10 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
Narcissus is not a god, Sil.

Only a half God in Greek mythology, sure, but he is to America, that's all I'm saying.
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Re: Who is the God of America?
Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:10 pm

Silhouette wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:
Narcissus is not a god, Sil.

Only a half God in Greek mythology, sure, but he is to America, that's all I'm saying.

Phaer.
Lets think about that very deeply for one second.

since Narcissus' god was Narcissus -
America's god presumably being America,
yes, food for thought.
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Re: Who is the God of America?
Postby surreptitious75 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:26 pm


Money is the driver of capitalism and America is the greatest capitalist nation so its god is money
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Re: Who is the God of America?
Postby Silhouette » Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:09 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
Lets think about that very deeply for one second.

since Narcissus' god was Narcissus -
America's god presumably being America,
yes, food for thought.

:D

It occurs to me that I'm thinking of America as Americans - but as you point out, the group identity of "America" works in just the way you say too.

Americans' gods are themselves, in the sense of individualism and the whole atomistic conception of the self as a distinct, self-built-solely-unto-itself moral entity - such as is consistent with the mindset of original sin, its absolution and vicarious redemption via a single self-sacrificing heroic martyr.

Politically any latent collectivism can sublimate as nationalism: "America's God" being America, but a country can easily be nationalist without being particularly American.
Likewise, money can be and is a driving force in many countries, but it's the attitude towards money that makes America American.
It's not a surprise that its identity emerges from its history as a go-it-alone, slapdash adventure, every man for himself - but the result is a nation of people clamoring all over each other to be seen and heard in a largely decentralised circus. That's what America is, and it's that entrepreneurial seed that grew into it.

Even protests against the current state of America have the same heart behind it: hear me, see me, venerate me. This is even for movements away from individualism - only in America can suggestions to be more social come across so much like self-interested virtue signalling. But this is always a criticism of progressives - either they live in their preferred way against and outside the system and have no support, exposure or power, or they are accused of hypocrisy for using the system to gain support, exposure and power.

Yet, like Narcissus, it is this individualistic obsession that on one hand exudes a distinctive aesthetic attractiveness that places it apart, but it's also the source of all its woes and flaws and which may well lead to its own demise. But that's a prediction that's been thrown around ad nauseam. For all the signs, it's taking its time.
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Re: Who is the God of America?
Postby zinnat » Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:17 am

As much as I am able to understand about US so far, individualism is the only god for the majority of the Amaricans, irrespective of which political ideology they follow.

With love,
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Re: Who is the God of America?
Postby Meno_ » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:09 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
I need you all to find another gear, people.

Narcissus is not a god, Sil.

Orbie, straightforward relativisms are, it seems to me, below you.




All right, then, it is an ominous sign that Capital has a negative intrinsic quality, that is approaching an unintended objective which may soon enough reveal a hidden transcendental.

I long ago , and not infrequently predicted a major appearent flow, that was not used even by Marx, that is, an ill conceived and unconvincing rationale .

The rationale regarding class dynamics patently ignores the question of the underlying pressure cooker thermodynamic considerations, that drives the conceptual indexes in modern corporate America.

Since this phenomena is unevident, the idea of suppression, intentional or otherwise, may merely be a sign that it is part and parcel of it's own reason d'etre.

The limit I predict is , the trillion dollar acquisition of personal holdings, and I may, with a fairly probable certainty, sustain a belief, that an internal correction has to occur, at around that limit.

A self induced correction , where the political, social and economic integration will uncontrollably become unhinged.

I think it may even be sensible at this time to interpret the frantic deflationary moves by the Fed, to signify at least a partial uber-control to avoid a calamity, which the Pandemic may merely signify.

A whole lot of undifferentiated 'thermodynamics' is cooking below what others may see as a metaphor of Susan Sontag used to coin as devil ing into the symptom .

This symptomatic revelation need not bother interests who have vested an absolute objective can steamroll come he'll or high water, because this would cause investiture on principle to disintegrate.

Therefore I shall call an unlimited application of the feeding of capital on itself a vampiristic, an imported concept originated by a female vampire living in the backwoods of Transylvania, a dark princess, who fed her beauty on hundreds of young women.

Capital feeds on labor as a commodity, and middle men become gorged on both labor and the market.

The essential need to universalize Capital, shows the idea that an absolute engorged system with in a submerged classless work force is a predictable requirement.

The vampire is the God of America.

It is an affable form of governance only when reasonable limits of social benefit are interjected with systematic application.
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Re: Who is the God of America?
Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:11 pm

Meno_ wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:
I need you all to find another gear, people.

Narcissus is not a god, Sil.

Orbie, straightforward relativisms are, it seems to me, below you.




All right, then, it is an ominous sign that Capital has a negative intrinsic quality, that is approaching an unintended objective which may soon enough reveal a hidden transcendental.

I long ago , and not infrequently predicted a major appearent flow, that was not used even by Marx, that is, an ill conceived and unconvincing rationale .

The rationale regarding class dynamics patently ignores the question of the underlying pressure cooker thermodynamic considerations, that drives the conceptual indexes in modern corporate America.

Since this phenomena is unevident, the idea of suppression, intentional or otherwise, may merely be a sign that it is part and parcel of it's own reason d'etre.

The limit I predict is , the trillion dollar acquisition of personal holdings, and I may, with a fairly probable certainty, sustain a belief, that an internal correction has to occur, at around that limit.

A self induced correction , where the political, social and economic integration will uncontrollably become unhinged.

I think it may even be sensible at this time to interpret the frantic deflationary moves by the Fed, to signify at least a partial uber-control to avoid a calamity, which the Pandemic may merely signify.

A whole lot of undifferentiated 'thermodynamics' is cooking below what others may see as a metaphor of Susan Sontag used to coin as devil ing into the symptom .

This symptomatic revelation need not bother interests who have vested an absolute objective can steamroll come he'll or high water, because this would cause investiture on principle to disintegrate.

Therefore I shall call an unlimited application of the feeding of capital on itself a vampiristic, an imported concept originated by a female vampire living in the backwoods of Transylvania, a dark princess, who fed her beauty on hundreds of young women.

Capital feeds on labor as a commodity, and middle men become gorged on both labor and the market.

The essential need to universalize Capital, shows the idea that an absolute engorged system with in a submerged classless work force is a predictable requirement.

The vampire is the God of America.

It is an affable form of governance only when reasonable limits of social benefit are interjected with systematic application.

Yep. Another good one.
Thanks Orbire. Forgive me for quoting it in case you still wish to delete it and erase traces of it - I have made that a nonoption. The world is now stuck with this notion.

Interesting: the god of America being the Vampire - now reading Silhouettes post in this light, the plot thickens!

Silhouette wrote:
It occurs to me that I'm thinking of America as Americans - but as you point out, the group identity of "America" works in just the way you say too.

Americans' gods are themselves, in the sense of individualism and the whole atomistic conception of the self as a distinct, self-built-solely-unto-itself moral entity - such as is consistent with the mindset of original sin, its absolution and vicarious redemption via a single self-sacrificing heroic martyr.

Politically any latent collectivism can sublimate as nationalism: "America's God" being America, but a country can easily be nationalist without being particularly American.
Likewise, money can be and is a driving force in many countries, but it's the attitude towards money that makes America American.
It's not a surprise that its identity emerges from its history as a go-it-alone, slapdash adventure, every man for himself - but the result is a nation of people clamoring all over each other to be seen and heard in a largely decentralised circus. That's what America is, and it's that entrepreneurial seed that grew into it.

Even protests against the current state of America have the same heart behind it: hear me, see me, venerate me. This is even for movements away from individualism - only in America can suggestions to be more social come across so much like self-interested virtue signalling. But this is always a criticism of progressives - either they live in their preferred way against and outside the system and have no support, exposure or power, or they are accused of hypocrisy for using the system to gain support, exposure and power.

Yet, like Narcissus, it is this individualistic obsession that on one hand exudes a distinctive aesthetic attractiveness that places it apart, but it's also the source of all its woes and flaws and which may well lead to its own demise. But that's a prediction that's been thrown around ad nauseam. For all the signs, it's taking its time.

First thing I notice: Narcissus was a vampire unto himself. America is sucking itself dry because of its boundless and reasonless self-admiration. There is no limit to the self-admiration, because - well, there is no God to admire above oneself.
Except the case of the Nation itself; the flag, the anthem, the superbowl fly-bys, - Nationalism as the force that curbs, or sets a limit to, the expansion of the ego of the individual American.

But, what we see now is that the ego of the individuals is expanding so far and wide that even Nationalism must be cast aside, for it curtails the growing of the ego and the ego is now dead-set on attaining full apocalyptic scope. Whatever that may turn out to mean.
Last edited by Fixed Cross on Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who is the God of America?
Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:37 pm

zinnat wrote:
As much as I am able to understand about US so far, individualism is the only god for the majority of the Amaricans, irrespective of which political ideology they follow.

With love,
Sanjay

I believe this is also correct. But we can now discern between realistic individualism and solipsistic individualism.
In the post above there is a good summary of the latter notion.
In order to clarify the former notion, realistic individualism, let me propose a study of the concept of dharma.

Where the individual relation to himself is explained as karma, the relation of society to itself is explained as dharma.
The focus on "good karma" is perhaps itself somewhat vampiric.
The focus on good dharma is truly self-interested altruism - such a focus beckons the will to efforts toward greatness. America has a great deal of dharmic vigour in its past, it has made great dharmic strides for all of us mankind.
But now it seems... their dharmic tension is running out.
A collapse of the web of dharma [norse: orlog] into individuals karmas [norse: wyrds] is coming. Or at hand. Or peaking.

Where is it at, this breakdown?
How much Dharma has the USA left?

A question to which the answer must remain in the dark until its positive content chooses to manifest in public light; a question here of hard loyalties, a question of military.
A great part of the nations dharma is upheld by its military. In the military, individual karma does not count, the individual is expendable and he is, as Edward Norton self-describes in the excellent Bourne Legacy, a "sin-eater".
He does the sin and buries the knowledge of it deep in himself, so that his nation may go on to live sanely. Such a sin-eater is both morally inexcusable and absolutely necessary, to paraphrase Nortons memorable black ops design alpha.

The US military is as a whole just as vain as Narcissus - however, for it to be able to be vain as a military it must be strong, and for a military to be strong, its soldiers and officers must all be completely loyal to the order of rank. Therefore it is most likely the functional remainder of America - because soldiers are people who aren't fundamentally worried about money; they've seen need beyond financial need. They know more about bottom lines, they do not have the luxury of solipsism.

So... the God of America may still well yet prove to have a sterner visage than the phantasmagoric spectacle of the individual.
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Re: Who is the God of America?
Postby perpetualburn » Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:37 pm

Clearly it's Mercury/Hermes... Hell, it even says "IN GOD WE TRUST"

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Re: Who is the God of America?
Postby Anomaleigh » Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:39 am

I think America worships more than one God, it worships a pantheon.

The American Triad is

1 Jesus (as interpreted by protestants)
2 The God of Individual Liberty
3 Of Political Correctness or Social Justice (a deity imported to America by Brits (the Fabian Society) and European Jews like Herbert Marcuse (the Frankfurt School) in the mid 20th century).

Some lesser deities are

4 The God of Food
5 Of Hard Work
6 Money
7 Outdoorsmen and Ranchers
8 Patriots and Vigilantes
9 Science and medicine
0 Sports and entertainment
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Re: Who is the God of America?
Postby Silhouette » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:22 am

Anomaleigh wrote:
I think America worships more than one God, it worships a pantheon.

The American Triad is

1 Jesus (as interpreted by protestants)
2 The God of Individual Liberty
3 Of Political Correctness or Social Justice (a deity imported to America by Brits and European Jews like Herbert Marcuse in the mid 20th century).

Some lesser deities are

4 The God of Food
5 Of Hard Work
6 Money
7 Outdoorsmen and Ranchers
8 Patriots and Vigilantes
9 Science and medicine
0 Sports and entertainment

This is pretty funny - a lot of these are encompassed by Individualism as I laid out, but the God of Food made me lol.

Political Correctness or Social Justice has nothing to do with being imported - the whole culture has been a constant import from day 1, don't pretend like some bad pills got slipped in there by Europeans - that lot ARE Europeans. They're Europeans under specific conditions - that's what makes America America.

Political Correctness or Social Justice is Individualism turned against Individualism, because successful Individualism results in severe inequality - the most successful snowball. The rest join the circus parade and are disillusioned about how severely the winners of former generations rig the odds against them. They never even had a chance except for the statistical anomalies - and Americans celebrate them as examples of moral fibre. Only in America can you celebrate such a contingency in luck as success. But that's the whole appeal - make a risk and you might win big! And so many win so big, and their names are strewn nationwide to the effect of perceived immortality. Hooray America, and all of its success stories.
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Re: Who is the God of America?
Postby Anomaleigh » Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:04 am

Silhouette wrote:
Anomaleigh wrote:
I think America worships more than one God, it worships a pantheon.

The American Triad is

1 Jesus (as interpreted by protestants)
2 The God of Individual Liberty
3 Of Political Correctness or Social Justice (a deity imported to America by Brits and European Jews like Herbert Marcuse in the mid 20th century).

Some lesser deities are

4 The God of Food
5 Of Hard Work
6 Money
7 Outdoorsmen and Ranchers
8 Patriots and Vigilantes
9 Science and medicine
0 Sports and entertainment

This is pretty funny - a lot of these are encompassed by Individualism as I laid out,

Right, that's why I said they're lesser deities.

but the God of Food made me lol.

Lol, well, Americans are the fattest nation in the world.
They're also the hardest working in the developed world.
They're the richest nation in the world.
They're one of the most inventive.
One of the most outdoorsy.
One of the most patriotic, despite all the anti-American rhetoric coming from the left.
And the most entertained (Hollywood, etcetera).

Political Correctness or Social Justice has nothing to do with being imported - the whole culture has been a constant import from day 1, don't pretend like some bad pills got slipped in there by Europeans - that lot ARE Europeans. They're Europeans under specific conditions - that's what makes America America.

Political Correctness or Social Justice is Individualism turned against Individualism, because successful Individualism results in severe inequality - the most successful snowball. The rest join the circus parade and are disillusioned about how severely the winners of former generations rig the odds against them. They never even had a chance except for the statistical anomalies - and Americans celebrate them as examples of moral fibre. Only in America can you celebrate such a contingency in luck as success. But that's the whole appeal - make a risk and you might win big! And so many win so big, and their names are strewn nationwide to the effect of perceived immortality. Hooray America, and all of its success stories.

While individual liberty wasn't invented by Americans, from its beginning America was founded on and developed it to an extreme, whereas political correctness and social justice came over a century and a half later and Americans never took to it as much as other developed nations, which's why its enemies, foreign and domestic, are attempting to punish it now.
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Re: Who is the God of America?
Postby Dan~ » Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:31 pm

If a man is willing to worship a single thing,
it says a lot about them as a person.

Worship is inferior to friendship.
And friendship requires both parties to be involved.

I've seen many Jehovah's Witnesses say that they have a personal relationship with God.
This is not a substantial tangible relationship.

If a person knows the truth about a god,
and then chooses to avoid that god and be independent,
that says a lot about that person too.

I answered with the option "God is dead",
because he is in most ways, a god of death.
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Re: Who is the God of America?
Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:45 pm

Anomaleigh wrote:
I think America worships more than one God, it worships a pantheon.

The American Triad is

1 Jesus (as interpreted by protestants)
2 The God of Individual Liberty
3 Of Political Correctness or Social Justice (a deity imported to America by Brits (the Fabian Society) and European Jews like Herbert Marcuse (the Frankfurt School) in the mid 20th century).

Some lesser deities are

4 The God of Food
5 Of Hard Work
6 Money
7 Outdoorsmen and Ranchers
8 Patriots and Vigilantes
9 Science and medicine
0 Sports and entertainment

Not sure if you intend but, this is a neat kabbalistic explosion and it works. You have secretly placed Money at the center of the King and the Childe. And the crucified. Good calls.
America as the/a tree of life. I can get behind it actually. Its better than the doomsday report of the god of Narcissism which we discerned "on the back of the tree", form of klippotic Amerikee.


Silhouette wrote:
Only in America can you celebrate such a contingency in luck as success.

It is a bit like worshipping nature.
Jay Z, who perfectly fits the figure of the successful American Narcissus, said it to the New York Times special attachee who was chosen to speak to the man at some length, "In America, it is what it is".
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Re: Who is the God of America?
Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:04 pm

perpetualburn wrote:
Clearly it's Mercury/Hermes... Hell, it even says "IN GOD WE TRUST"

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Hermes-Thoth - the god of Magic, or in mundane terms, of transaction... once again Money appears as the Central-God.
As Hermes Trismegistus the God says "As above, so below" - this is reflected in the American idea of a civilian president.
They revere themselves through revering the president. "Anyone can become president" - but not everyone.

The god of anyone but not everyone, or perhaps the angel or fairy, is at the tollbooth of the rainbow road - risk it all, throw it all on the line for a shot -
in this way, the best shots are thrown. Advance, because all or nothing. "Conservative America" would seem a contradiction, except it is the machinery of propulsion they seek to conserve. The desperate attempt, the lunge that may well turn a plunge, the gods of the abyss..... don't underestimate these! The Eagle watches over such matters.
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Re: The Philosophers

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:50 am

"Its been Spinoza vs Hegel"
Yes.



Investigating the nature of the possible positive;

"That something of the future comes before the negative present"
"About the precise relation between negation and affirmation" (VALUING dude)
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Re: The Philosophers

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:56 am

Possibility of concrete negation,
can only be in the realm of primitive affirmation (YES)

event and subject.

Althusser "philosophy must be as simple as the hand."

a new reactivity in time
and a new creativity inside the situation (valuing)

"I name it Event."

NO!

Valuing.

"event is what interrupts the law, the structure of the situation, ...
blah

no no no

a short cut to being. it doesn't work thada wae bro.

They cant grasp it
The left knows that the answer must be concrete but does not know the concrete substance of the universe because it - simply is somewhat lacking in that raw ?

Maybe?

I mean in degrees.

Some can retrieve it, some are truly without it;

some remember the taste and review "politics" in that true bitter;
sense.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: The Philosophers

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:08 am

What he calls EVENT
is acquisition and transaction.
he wants chemical reaction without agency.
He wants to disestablish the periodic table and its particular, runic stanzas of grit.

He wants - to know.

one cant ever know, the quark can not be known. The quark-lock is an event, but it doesn't disrupt, but rather e s t a b l i s h the structure.
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Re: The Philosophers

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:16 am

Questions of ontology here, you see. What comes first, the male or the female orgasm?
Qua: "things in the future that come before the negative present"...
they're not boring, and far from weak. Until they make their attempt at ontology.

Plus this is just the one guy. The "they", the leftist philosophy. Badiou. Zizek is best as a Christian, as his speciality is the irrational; he has no problems with the rational but it is not his source, and he seems to find offence in this.
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Re: The Philosophers

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:41 pm

Re: Wholeness

These are profoundly interesting notions, from not only Jung but Meno too, but/and they are intra-Christian/Platonic notions; a soul-straddling duality between good and evil is always implicit.
Even though such duality is important, it does not, in my own psyche, encompass reality. It is just one of its axes.

Let me offer a definition I once gave of magic which received clear praise from fellow magicians;

- Magic is beyond the distinction of the psychological self and the physical other. This duality is ultimately an illusion. Magic changes the configuration of this illusion, making it less and less illusory until finally it dissolves and ones notion of oneself is the same as ones notion of first principle.

This is what I practice when I practice magic. "Black magic" derives from this main definition; where one is capable of such unifying configuration of identity, one is capable of transgressing the limits of identity. One can actually possess another person. And often, this happens between people who aren't aware that it is happening, not through magical intent but because, this is what reality is like. Fluid patterns, the strongest consistency serves as a mould for all others; this consistency is such as god, scientific truth, logic itself; philosophy is another contender to the throne, a David to many Goliaths.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Wholeness
Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:18 am

To be fair, I think that the person-hood of Christ defeats the purpose of religion as it had been until then, and created a new purpose to it which in the long run is running into lack of meaning.
All pagan gods are not physical, they are built it seems of value-giving power without physical boundaries. A god can not be sacrificed, and we do not sacrifice to humans, at all.
Abraham was tempted to sacrifice to the gods of the Old Testament (which number at least 10), which is also, to himself, to his own greater destiny. This was one of the most radical kinds of occurrences in paganism.
But the Jesus offering is far more radical, it was a man sacrificed to other men, or even, a god sacrificed to men. This places gods below men, at service of men, which is in the old sense completely unreligious, blasphemous pomp, from old perspective, and that of the Athenians who foolishly, tragically, and with no choice in the actual matter, killed Socrates, indeed a blasphemous pomp... yet, it was possible. There was fruit in it, so it grew into a tree.

The Jesus offering takes away the power of men to sacrifice themselves to themselves, to forge their own spiritual exaltation, war their own devil. This is why Michael William Denney, a Bible student in youth knowing Greek and Latin, was told by an entity claiming to be Odin that Jesus was a coward.
Like all of us, he was shocked by the announcement; how can that act be cowardly? But this entity claiming to be Odin went on to explain; it is because it is not what a warrior does. A warrior operates on equality of terms. A warrior will never seek to take from another warrior his right to his own destiny, liberation, and to the meaning of his own sacrifice.
Odins weapon is the spear, and the spear was cast by heathens over the heads of armies they faced, to welcome them into their world, which included Valhalla for all braves killed in action.
That is a larger universe than what the Christ provides.
Christ has wrought immensely powerful spirit by this blasphemous sacrifice of god to man, reversing the order into a demonic one to be fair, aesthetically at the least, and the result of this is mostly scientific, because this man-centeredness isolated humans from the earth and taught them to isolate the earth from itself as it were, in portions; a strong magic! That I do not deny. On the contrary. But it has accompanied mankind in a time when a world of new unhappinesses was unrolled. New loneliness and meaninglessness, new weakness and new doubt, so much burdens and transmuters of the mind that the taste for the ancient love of Earth for its creatures, was forgotten.
Jung does not return to this ground. He is the one who is astute enough to speak "friend"; but he does not enter the gates. Because he was in Central Europe in the early 1900s he went through all the rituals and theatrical enactments, but he did not crawl into a swamp. He did not run through the forest barefoot in the night because of pure instinct - the is more the domain of Wilhelm Reich, another of mr. Freuds students.
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Re: Wholeness
Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:47 am

I think what is very important to establish actually is whether or not Jesus of Nazareth existed in real life.

There is no question that if he did not, the power of Christ is still real. But what is it precisely and how is it related, especially important, to Jesus.
Is it related in fact to a figure called Jesus at all. Or is it a power that exists independently of that which is spoken of by the four gospels.

If Jesus was real, the world is a far crazier place than pagans would presume. There would be no sense, basically. The most obscenely unnatural stuff could happen and be of benefit, whereas the most natural and healthy pleasant suff could be evil, for example. But more so a god was killed by god so that man could be healed from sin - but the plan didn't work. This is most puzzling of all to a pagan. Most of the time when gods make plans, they tend to work, especially if there is no other god to stand in the way? But no. Mankind become even more unrepentant and selfish and invented things like intercontinental slavetrade which was explicitly done in name of the sacrificed god.
I think the presumption that Jesus did not exist, which would be reflected by the apparent fact that Nazareth wasn't a town until well beyond Jesus' supposed lifespan, is safer, also considering the consequences of the religion that was based on him.
Something was accomplished by the creation of Christianity. A great magical circle was drawn around mankind, isolating animals and most gods. Something was done to the harvest cycles of the spirit. It came to stand all in service of an entrepreneurial context; most of all what Christians have accomplished is the transfiguration of matter. Science.
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Re: Wholeness
Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:07 am

It is almost impossible for me to not think of such magic as performed in name of the Nazarene, as pertaining to a very real God. But what if the act of having people believe in this heady miracle simply amounted to the establishment of a psychological (psychic, psychoid) configuration which is aimed toward the presupposition of a deity which thereby comes to exist magically, and becomes capable of performing real life miracles through the combined cathartic passionate forces of human devotion, in which I 100 percent believe as transmittable through will...questionmark?
The magic worked because it is part of the Egyptian ritual, but it worked so incredibly weirdly and explosively thwarting- and destructively because it was just not an actual god, but a notion. Something very Greek. A sly story, ingeniously drawn from a cup of bad mead one summer night in an Adriatic tavern. A sailor who had learned of Hebrew religion on his trade faring ventures and slept with a .. sex worker.. who told him the story of the slain Osiris -
yeah no, that doesn't play. It is too well put together from the Hebrew and the Egyptian strands both, and fits too well within other solstice myths of sacrifice. All that is new about it is the human aspect; the fact that it was supposed to have been literal, rather than a symbolic protocol of ritual or habitual re-enactment as previously, sacrifices were prescribed. It was a sacrifice to absolve of all other sacrifice
but, sacrifice is what gives joy in pagan religion.
Jesus did take that away from us. And so the earth grew barren, where fertile meadows were ploughed now the stream had dried and dust was in mens mind.
Paganism is necessary for wholeness. I believe it. Even for American wholeness - American Christians beautiful beings, because they are free. But they need paganism below their Christianity - they need the Indian. Y'all need the medicine man because thats what you are, America - the shaman.
Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:16 pm

Meno_ wrote:
I do indeed look at at in terms of the expansive roll out of faith from the point of view of a continuum from very early paganism on the literal sense into the more figurative essential content, within which the vessel of god has progressed.

Such development retroactively presents markers which aubsume the idea of good and 'His' relation to 'goodness' as a prescribed method to attain salvation, in it's earliest form


That such naive prescription was possible as key to establish the Platinism of the earliest type of. duality , was motivated by the gradations which were implicit in the slow acquisition of prescribed. Platonic ' love ', however , that continuum was established on basis of.various ideas.

So in that sense, the central question is the psychologically derived dynamic, which is appropriate fittingly, as below that level of doubt, relating to sacrifice generally, and self sacrifice particularly.

For holding the ideas separate, Jesus pays the ultimate sacrifice of a reduction into the most basic level that subsists, to establish a fearless attempt to deal with the belief in the value of human life-for which god can sacrifice Himself-creating a reasonable effected field of energy-. ' T he soul or , spirit of a holy God, who is one God, yet manifesting in three persons, the trinity is a testament to that.

The problem here is, especially since Jesus most, most likely, if not certainly, never really existed, is that it warps the idea of self-sacrifice and makes it into something no human (except some Philippinians) would enact that model, so self-sacrifice effectively remains privilege of the state-God.
Do you see my concern?
No one actually went through that experience, so it is very unfair to give it as an example to people. Not to mention it is not a very wholesome example in general.
And it has no bearing on what sacrifice meant to pagan societies and individuals.

This different is so great as to discontinue the line of development of the notion of God, as I see it - I do not see a continuum between the pagan Gods and the Christian God - rather I see a deliberately forged break in the tie between Gods and men, forged so by Roman wizards -
Rome, large as it was, needed to do away with European peoples religion and invent state-religion. It had to do this in order to survive.
The result was an obscuring if not downright breaking of the tie between humans and gods.
This at the very least goes for Occidental Christianity.
Eastern Orthodoxy has somehow managed to maintain a living divinity, as I said earlier, I think because it is in its rituals, both Zeus-worship and a subterranean mystery religion.
I take such notions among other places from the Church of the Sepulchre in Jerusalem.

The son falls, but by that fall , the expulsion from paradise becomes a learning experience, and a transition toward excusing father, Odin, from self recrimination in the matter of procreating an objective, toward further human development.

Odin is not the creator of the world, not the creator-god. Pagans do not have such deities, pagan deities come into being just as we do, just at an earlier stage.

Odins son Baldr was slain, as are all Sun Gods, but Odin, unlike the Christian God, was slain himself as well; it is a cyclical, eternal world, whereas Christianity presents us with a straight and limited line; physics vs metaphysics.

Generally, God has to sacrifice the dual nature that he shares on the extended scope.

Again here, the difference is in the meaning of the God. The Christian God exists to serve man, the development of mankind. Odin, and Zeus, they exist for themselves. Mankind is not crucial to their meaning. They are beings unto themselves ,which is what makes it possible to actually worship them. A man can not sincerely worship a God whose task it is to serve him.

Jung does not deal with the soul in this manner, he's psychological symbols are far less literally fermenting, he is far human to allow this distinction.

The progression of the developing soul does not allow cracks of doubt to appear because the progression forward increases the following gaps to widen, thereby. by disseminating the contextual meaning of the substantially with which Christianity became increasingly preoccupied.

This makes me think I have missed your earlier point.
Ill have to ... stare at this for a while.

Descartes's doubt became the ontological marker which signaled religious literacy with the challenge to re-form the archaic ideas that analogously had to mirror.

Withi. that parallelism, the sacrifice of the continuity of the ideal, circular tautology, within which and about which the self of the profane and the divine were familiar connected, had to be placed on a different plateau. , then the magical.

What was Jung's solution? To avoid an infinite collapse, he re- converted the archaic and the progressive objectivity, fermenting the idea that the Creation could incorporate the newer evolutionary basis within that of the old testament value of a literal sacrifice .

Yes - all this is respectable and intriguing and even genius and brave as an intellectual development, but it has nothing to do with the actual living Gods. Who are far less complex in this sense - their complexity is an Earthly one, in the sense of runes, mysteries, the open-ended mind. If. may coin a term.
The Platonic-Christian mind is a closed loop, and all such developments as you identify take place in order to deal with the unresolvable issues such a loop brings about.
Why Christian sacrifice is so much more brutal and absolute and desperate, and why it doesn't work as a blessing like pagan sacrifice does - the value is forced into a path rather than that it is allowed to make its own path and thereby, open up the world on that day in a certain way, produce freedom, happiness, personal power, a wholesome love of ones own ground.
Which is lacking in Christianity, this love of ones ground.

The self needed to avoid sacrifice it's self to attain incorporation within the higher conscious manifestation, it needed no transifionary steps to over come the gaping realities of ever wide ing, emerging doubt, but presume the oncoming existential presumption of the basic literal evaluation -of the word of God, was Good.

That Man was ready to assume that goodness, was a sine qua non, and that goodness overcame the essential doubt which has arisen.

The goodness was proved by that singular demonstration which drew a magic circle between the divine
infancy and sacrifice through progressive symbolism.

Yes but - it didn't work.
Man became ever more cruel and detached form his ground.
In desperate need to evince his notion of Good, he began to orchestrate the great purge of value from Europe; as he wanted only that which confirmed to him the absoluteness of Good of the intention of the creator of the world, where such confirmation will never be found. As there is no such creator, in the first place. The world came into being out of necessity, not out of moral will.
These are important arguments, and they suggest Christianity is not capable of sustaining itself as it completes depleting the world - it is such a devastating religion because it wants what it can never have, it demands to have what cant exist.
This is not sustainable in thew long run.

The redemption got rid of the need of atonement, and that changed the essential marker for comprehending the continuation of evaluating the multiplicity of a prior continuity of identifiable markers of the personalify6 of God.

God had to sacrifice Its self as the logical result of a process, understood as introjective identification: as effected by Jung's re-integration of Jesus' held back differential treatment, so that sins, albeit guilt could be forgiven. ; which formerly only a magical mystery could invoke.

No, because the idea of Sin did not exist in paganism. There is no need for the redemption of the soul for the sin of being a natural being.
There is no continuity from paganism into Christianity in this regard either - pagans know only their values, and they know they need to fight for them on this earthly plane to be worthy of them.

This worthiness is not "Good" in the moral sense, it is simply good in the experiential sense. Its good to be with ones gods. Very good indeed.

Sexual guilt in particular, became the most spectacular literal symbol to be disassembled, and it STILL remains in a suspended, animated contention.

Yes, and it is this particular form of guilt which as we speak is shaping up to be the lever that is about to introduce a new paganism.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Wholeness
Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:32 pm

But, Meno, I can see you are working a crucible here of considerable importance.
Basically I think you are looking at how Jung fails in such a way to completely destroy the meta-physical hegemony over religion that he reveals the possibility of not failing; of pushing through - which would not amount to a mere return to olde paganism, but to wreak a marriage, a cathartic fusion, between the fruit of the completed Christian tract (basically, current seeker-thinkers) and the truths that underlie paganism.

This is very interesting. It is also what my own work is, but your field is not occultism and nonmetaphysical logic but rather, philology, literary-historical archaeology. Which means that you can not, as I can, dismiss metaphysics in favour of a proud newborn method, but must transform metaphysics from within, bring it to life, make it from a kind of cruel factory into a kind of wounded, crumpled but living dragon, which can then span its wings across millennia to become glorious. You have done to language what Heidegger felt necessary but certainly could not undertake - language as our dependency on god as the implied syntactic hegemon.
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Re: Wholeness
Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:52 pm

felix dakat wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:
These are profoundly interesting notions, from not only Jung but Meno too, but/and they are intra-Christian/Platonic notions; a soul-straddling duality between good and evil is always implicit.
Even though such duality is important, it does not, in my own psyche, encompass reality. It is just one of its axes.

Let me offer a definition I once gave of magic which received clear praise from fellow magicians;

- Magic is beyond the distinction of the psychological self and the physical other. This duality is ultimately an illusion. Magic changes the configuration of this illusion, making it less and less illusory until finally it dissolves and ones notion of oneself is the same as ones notion of first principle.

This is what I practice when I practice magic. "Black magic" derives from this main definition; where one is capable of such unifying configuration of identity, one is capable of transgressing the limits of identity. One can actually possess another person. And often, this happens between people who aren't aware that it is happening, not through magical intent but because, this is what reality is like. Fluid patterns, the strongest consistency serves as a mould for all others; this consistency is such as god, scientific truth, logic itself; philosophy is another contender to the throne, a David to many Goliaths.


Aren't there different levels of magic? And if so, what are they, and what level have you achieved?

Heh, thats always the question you hope someone is gonna ask. Yet the answer is of course restricted heavily, because, as most religious ethics prescribes, what is between god(s) and oneself must remain there. It is the most intimate experience, sharing of which would open one up to endless possibilities of being influenced.

I do not believe in an objective order of rank entirely as all powers branch out into different kinds of contexts, so there is no true integration into a pyramid. But of course there are objective stages of revelation. I believe Ive reached, through the early fanatical practice of Zen (6hrs-whole days for half a year at age 21) and subsequent complete psychological immersion in Kabbalah and White Magic, a consciousness "above the Abyss", which I can access at all times if I put enough sacrifice into it. What this practically means, you'll have to divine from the general drift of my posts, because as with many things psychic as well as social and political, to speak them literally is to give them away.

As far as matters such as levitation and time-travel go, I think they are possible and I have an idea of both, but I can not practice the former, and the latter Ive done a few times in terms of information (which may be the only form of time travel possible) contingently on some deep operation which requires it; all magic is contingent on values. "White Magic" in Alice Baileys terms, is the form of magic which as a principle operates only for the benefit of All; it has been my guideline basically for my own safekeeping, not knowing what I am as I was before I saw Athens, Sparta, Delphi and roamed the cliff of Poseidon and then saw my own homeland with new eyes and so was granted knowledge of my own gods. Since then Ive been absorbed by the magic of the runes.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Wholeness
Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:13 am

felix dakat wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:
I think what is very important to establish actually is whether or not Jesus of Nazareth existed in real life.

There is no question that if he did not, the power of Christ is still real. But what is it precisely and how is it related, especially important, to Jesus.
Is it related in fact to a figure called Jesus at all. Or is it a power that exists independently of that which is spoken of by the four gospels.

If Jesus was real, the world is a far crazier place than pagans would presume. There would be no sense, basically. The most obscenely unnatural stuff could happen and be of benefit, whereas the most natural and healthy pleasant suff could be evil, for example. But more so a god was killed by god so that man could be healed from sin - but the plan didn't work. This is most puzzling of all to a pagan. Most of the time when gods make plans, they tend to work, especially if there is no other god to stand in the way? But no. Mankind become even more unrepentant and selfish and invented things like intercontinental slavetrade which was explicitly done in name of the sacrificed god.
I think the presumption that Jesus did not exist, which would be reflected by the apparent fact that Nazareth wasn't a town until well beyond Jesus' supposed lifespan, is safer, also considering the consequences of the religion that was based on him.
Something was accomplished by the creation of Christianity. A great magical circle was drawn around mankind, isolating animals and most gods. Something was done to the harvest cycles of the spirit. It came to stand all in service of an entrepreneurial context; most of all what Christians have accomplished is the transfiguration of matter. Science.


The historical Jesus is a mystery so great that it calls the adequacy of the standard methods of historical research into question.

We need indeed look a it through the lens of greater occultism; I recommend strongly you read the book "Jesus: Last of the Pharaohs" by Ralph Ellis.
It posits that Jesus is indeed the son of Joseph and that Joseph is from a lineage of Pharaoh blood that was hiding out with the big Egyptian war going on, and that "carpenter" is a translation of an Aramaic word for builder, which was a simplification of the Egyptian word for architect, and furthermore that the Pharaohs were the cosmic architects. The whole thing is an archaeological study, beautiful reconstructions of time that was formerly dust, it is as compelling a story of a living human Jesus Ive ever read.

Western Civilization has always been as much pagan as it is Christian.

This is equally true on Sunday, Monday, Tiwazday, Wotansday, Thorsday, Freyasday and Saturnday.

The expansion of the magic circle seems like a plunge into chaos to the conservative mind.

I would see it doesn't only seem as such, but truly means such a thing. Chaos must then be transformed into a beast, lets say a horse, and then this horse must be taught to be a vessel.
Honour must be established between the lower, fearful-conservative mind which has its roots in the past and the will, which has its roots in the future; in the idea of it at the least. Which is all it ever is. This, ground in something that only it can make real, is what I know as free will.

Birth, death and rebirth belong to the Tao=Horus= Logos. It comprehends all though none can comprehend it. Yet can we participate in it.

Humans knew how to play the game of life before they knew the rules.

Many want life to be encompassed in one rule, many in no rules at all.
But the rules are definite and somewhat complex and have to do with energy, and with the ole' 'master-slave' polarity, which is one of the axes next to good and evil - the slave is the shadow, for all intents and purposes; and the slave is often the master.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Wholeness
Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:21 am

lol - therefore can only information be time-traveled; because the future is an idea.

But DNA is information.

It seems a ridiculous thing, time travel, as it completely negates billiard-ball physics. But Einsteins cosmos does not really suggest an origin of time or a direction that is absolutely implicit in existence; it suggests that the universe is a kind of surface, spread out over an object which includes time as a whole, and has a structure that we can only take part in, not comprehending it.

Occultism is a way of navigating this object, and to be the kind of master some guy called "Babaji" is supposed to be, would probably mean to actually be hip with that object rather than with objects in time-space.
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Re: Wholeness
Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:35 am

Babaji

Jesus, that guy is also relevant to the historical Jesus.
Ok, so there is a gap in the accumulative Biblical story of Jesus, of when he was a teenager to when he was in his 30s.
The story goes, he went on a pilgrimage, and reached the Himalayas. He was there taught by a yogi who is a high master deva who has committed to carrying this Epoch with us, alive through millennia.
He has taught Jesus, as well as a man called Lahiri Mahasaya, who taught a stern, almost Schopenhauerian yogi, Sri Yukteshwar, who taught the venerable Paramahansa Yogananda, who came to America, and created what is now known as Ananda or the Expanding Light, which is where on one of my travels the wind swept me, and I learned yogic meditation, and found that the heavens are quite a bit more powerful than I had imagined.

Yes, the Lahiri Mahasaya shrine. Yes....
How my back ached!
How stiff I was, and yet I persevered...
I had after all persevered in Zen.
Yoga is quite another thing.
Zen goes beyond existence and non-existence. Yoga goes into God
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Re: The Philosophers

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:47 pm

For safekeeping
ᛉ---------ᛉ---------ᛉ---------ᛉ---------ᛉ---------ᛉ---------ᛉ---------ᛉ---------ᛉ


The Nine Worlds
of Norse Mythology

[Old Norse Cosmology][Home]
[The Yggdrasil Chronicle]
"I recall nine homes..."
níu man ek heima

The designation "Nine Worlds" is a well-known staple of Old Norse mythology, but what are the nine worlds exactly? Can anyone name all nine? Where are they located? These are natural questions.



In the Poetic Edda, we first learn of the tree Yggdrassil and the Nine Worlds. The clearest declaration of this is found in Völuspá 2, where the völva says:


Ek man jötna
ár of borna,
þá er forðum
mik fædda höfðu;
níu man ek heima,
níu íviðjur,*
mjötvið mæran
fyr mold neðan.
2. Jötuns I remember
early born,
those of old
who reared me.
I remember nine homes,
nine wood-giantesses,
the great measuring-tree,
down in the mould.


*íviðjur, "wood giantesses", also known in the singluar from Hrafnagaldur Odins 1, where it seems to refer to the Old One in the Ironwood, breeding Fenrir's kin (Voluspa R39-40), perhaps referring here to Heimdal's nine mothers. (Larrington), or nine wooden spindles, or 9 types of wood, used to kindle friction-fire on a wheel (the world-mill), as described by Jacob Grimm in Deutsche Mythologie s.v. need-fire. In the epic system, Heimdall appears to represent the Tree and the holy fire at the same time.

Mjötvíðr, the Measuring Tree, is commonly understood to be the world-tree, Yggdrassil, so-named in Völuspá 20. Yet the nine worlds are nowhere enumerated. Exactly what the völva means when she says 'nine worlds' here is never clarified. There is no master-list of the 9 worlds.

To complicate matters, not only are there nine worlds, according to the Eddas, but also twelve heavens. Snorri provides us a list of 12 heavens in Skáldskaparmál 69. Of these, Snorri informs us that Vidblainn and Andlang are the heavens of the higher worlds:

Þessi nöfn himins eru rituð, en eigi höfum vér fundit í kvæðum öll þessi heiti. En þessi skáldskaparheiti sem önnur þykkir mér óskylt at hafa í skáldskap, nema áðr finni hann í verka höfuðskálda þvílík heiti.

Himinn: Hlýrnir, Heiðþorrnir, Hregg-mímir, Andlangr, Ljósfari, Drífandi, Skatyrnir, Víðfeðmir, Vetmímir, Leiftr, Hrjóðr, Víðbláinn.
LV. "These names of the heavens are written, but not all these names are found in poems. But these skaldic heiti unlike others, are not found in skaldic writing, unless one finds such heiti in the works of chief skalds.

Heaven: Warmer, Heidþorrnir, Tempest-Mímir, And-lang, Light-farer, Driving, Skatyrnir, Við-feðmir, Wet-Mimir, Flash, Hrjóðr, Vid-blainn.

Nine Worlds— the concept is easy enough to grasp. The universe consists of nine homes or "worlds", each primarily inhabited or ruled by a unique tribe of beings. The names of at least a few of the worlds probably have already sprung to mind.

Over the years, there have been several attempts to list the nine worlds. The following chart provides the lists compiled by Finnur Magnússon, the first scholar to undertake the endeavor; Gustav Legis, Karl Simrock, and lastly the one presented by Marvel Comics in their popular Thor series. The first three are the oldest representative lists, often repeated by others, and the fourth is a modern popular view, also representative of other similar models:


Magnússon 1825 Legis 1829 Simrock 1865 Marvel Comics 1988
I. Ljósalfaheim
II. Muspellsheim
III. Asgard
IV. Vanaheim
V. Midgard
VI. Jötunheim.
VII.Svartalfaheim
VIII. Helheim
IX. Niflheim
1. Muspelheim
2. LjosAlfheim
3. Asgard
4. Vanaheim
5. Midgard
6. Jotunheim
7. SvartAlfheim
8. Helheim or Niflhel
9. Niflheim 1. Asgard
2. Ljosalfaheim
3. Jotunheim (east)
4. Vanaheim (west)
5. Niflheim (north)
6. Muspellsheim (south)
7. Midgard
8. SvartAlfheim
9. Helheim 1. Asgard
2. Vanaheim
3. Alfheim
4. Nidavellir [?]
5. Midgard
6. Jotunheim
7. SvartAlfheim
8. Hel and Niffleheim
9. Muspelheim

Although several illustrations of Yggdrassil have been published, these 4 works contain the primary representative efforts to create a list of the nine worlds. Similar lists appear with little or no variation. Looking at their similarities and differences may help determine the actual meaning of the phrase "the nine worlds."

All 4 of these lists share the following worlds in common:
Asgard
Midgard
Jötunheim
Vanaheim
Svartálfaheim

Only the first four are found in the poems of the Elder Edda. The fifth is unique to Snorri's Edda. The following worlds, common to all of the lists, appear in variant forms, suggesting some confusion regarding the exact form of the name:

Muspellheim or Muspellsheim or just Muspell
Ljósálfheim or Ljósálfaheim or just Álfheim

Of these Muspelheim (and its variants) is unique to Snorri's Edda, and does not appear anywhere in the poems of the Elder Edda or skaldic poetry. And while Álfheim appears as a place-name in the Elder Edda, Ljósálfheim does not appear in either the Elder or the Younger Edda. It is a term invented and promoted by modern scholars, to distinguish it from Svartalfheim (a placename found only in Snorri's Edda), no doubt.

Note too that while the first 3 scholars list Niflheim and Hel (or Helheim, a name not found in the lore) as distinct worlds, the final list suggests that there is some confusion in the modern popular imagination whether Hel and Niflheim are alternate names for the same world. The map of Yggdrassil published by Marvel Comics presents Hel and Niflheim (sic Niffleheim) as one world— the world of death— and adds Nidavellir as another world to round out the nine. Other popular cosmological maps present Hel and Niflheim as one world, as conjoined realms, and as independent worlds. Those that combine the two realms sometimes add Nidavellir, a place name found in Völuspá, as a separate world. Below I will examine the reasons for and implications of these choices.

Before doing so, I just want to point out that in addition to "the nine homes" in the Tree, Vafþrúðnismál speaks of "nine homes" located below Niflhel, which itself is identified as the lowest or "ninth" world. The poem Vafþrúdnismál specifically speaks of "nine worlds" below Niflhel. These are distinct from the "nine worlds" in the Tree:

Vafthrudnir
"Frá jötna rúnum
ok allra goða
ek kann segja satt,
því at hvern hef
ek heim of komit;
níu kom ek heima
fyr Niflhel neðan;
hinig deyja ór
helju halir."
Vafthrudnir

43. Of the runes of Jötuns
and all gods,
I can truly tell;
for I have travelled
over each world;
to nine worlds I came,
down below Niflhel;
here die men from Hel.

So with these things in mind, let's explore the nine worlds, and see what the sources actually say. At the end, I will present a list of the nine worlds, based on the best available evidence, using the older poetic sources as my primary sources, and Snorri's later prose retelling as a secondary source.

First and Second Worlds:
HEL AND NIFLHEL

Notice in the verse above that the world known as Hel is distinguished from Niflhel. Men "die from Hel" into Niflhel. It's a second death, most likely for the worst of sinners. From Völuspá 38-39 we know that terrible punishments await those who transgress the heathen moral code in a land "far from the sun" known as the ná-strands (the corpse-beaches). There condemned men wade in venom inside a hall braided from serpents' backs. Völuspá 39 informs us that the dragon Niddhögg tarries there eating nair (corpses). In agreement with this, Grímnismál 34 says many serpents lie below Yggdrasill, and the following verse adds that Nidhögg rends Yggdrasill from beneath. Völuspá informs us that the doors of this hall face north, and a passage in Saxo Grammaticus' Danish History, book 8, tell us that this hall can be reached by sailing due north from Denmark, across dark waters, leaving the sun behind.

Other passages in the Poetic Edda also support this separation. In Baldurs Draumar, Odin rides "to Niflhel", and once there, as he continues to ride, apparently toward the border between these two realms, since in Niflhel he sees a dog with a bloody breast, "coming out of Hel". Long it howled at the father of spells, as he rode further to "Hel's high hall". The ground now "thunders" (v. 10) beneath the weight of a living rider, just as it did when Hermod crossed this same way on Sleipnir, Odin's own horse (Gylfaginning 49).

Upp reis Óðinn,
alda gautr,
ok hann á Sleipni
söðul of lagði;
reið hann niðr þaðan
niflheljar til;
mætti hann hvelpi,
þeim er ór helju kom.

Sá var blóðugr
um brjóst framan
ok galdrs föður
gól of lengi;
fram reið Óðinn,
foldvegr dunði;
hann kom at
hávu Heljar ranni.


2. Uprose Odin
lord of men,
and on Sleipnir he
laid the saddle;
he rode thence
down to Niflhel.
He met a whelp,
coming out of Hel.

3. It was bloody
about its breast.
It bayed long
at the father of spells:
Forth rode Odin —
the field-way thundered —
he came to
the high hall of Hel.
We cannot be certain if the use of the word Hel in the last line (hávu Hels ranni) is a a personal name or a place name— in other words, we don't know whether the hall belongs to Hel or simply is found in Hel. One thing is certian, however, the description of the hall in the following verses, as an opulent, well-adorned hall with sparkling mead served in goblets prepared for Baldur's arrival stands in stark contrast to the hall of Loki's daughter, whom Snorri names "Hel" in Gylfaginning 37. In Gylfaginning 3, Snorri also distinquishes between the worlds of Hel and Niflhel, and identifies Niflhel as "the ninth world":

"Hitt er þó mest, er hann gerði manninn ok gaf honum önd þá, er lifa skal ok aldri týnast, þótt líkaminn fúni at moldu eða brenni at ösku, ok skulu allir menn lifa, þeir er rétt eru siðaðir, ok vera með honum sjálfum þar sem heitir Gimlé eða Vingólf, en vándir menn fara til Heljar ok þaðan í Niflhel. Þat er niðr í inn níunda heim."
What is most important, he (God) made man and gave him a spirit, which shall live, and never perish, though the body may turn to dust or burn to ashes. All who live a life of virtue shall dwell with him in Gimli or Vingolf. The wicked, on the other hand, go to Hel, and from there to Niflhel, that is, down into the ninth world.

Elsewhere, Snorri states that Loki's half-livid daughter, whom he names Hel, was given power over "nine worlds" after she was thrown into "Niflheim" by Odin. In Gylfaginning 34, he writes:

Hel kastaði hann í Niflheim ok gaf henni vald yfir níu heimum, at hon skyldi skipta öllum vistum með þeim, er til hennar váru sendir, en þat eru sóttdauðir menn ok ellidauðir.

Hon á þar mikla bólstaði, ok eru garðar hennar forkunnarhávir ok grindr stórar. Éljúðnir heitir salr hennar, Hungr diskr hennar, Sultr knífr hennar, Ganglati þrællinn, Ganglöt ambátt, Fallandaforað þresköldr hennar, er inn gengr, Kör sæing, Blíkjandaböl ársali hennar. Hon er blá hálf, en hálf með hörundarlit. Því er hon auðkennd ok heldr gnúpleit ok grimmlig.
Hel he cast into Niflheim, and gave her power over nine worlds, to apportion all abodes among those that were sent to her: that is, men dead of sickness or of old age.

She has great possessions there; her walls are exceeding high and her gates great. Her hall is called Sleet-Cold; her dish, Hunger; Famine is her knife; Idler, her thrall; Sloven, her maidservant; Pit of Stumbling, her threshold, by which one enters; Disease, her bed; Gleaming Bale, her bed-hangings. She is half blue-black and half flesh-color (by which she is easily recognized), and very lowering and fierce.

This description of Hel's hall, the abode of Loki's daughter, is the exact opposite of hávu heljar ranni, the "high hall of Hel", seen by Odin in Baldurs Draumar:

Óðinn kvað:

"Vegtamr ek heiti,
sonr em ek Valtams;
segðu mér ór helju,
ek mun ór heimi:
Hveim eru bekkir
baugum sánir,
flet fagrlig
flóuð gulli?"
Odin said:

6. "Vegtam is my name,
I am Valtam's son.
Tell me (news) of Hel,
I remember (events) of the world.
For whom are benches
strewn with rings,
fair rooms (or benches)
adorned with gold?"
Völva kvað:

7. "Hér stendr Baldri
of brugginn mjöðr,
skírar veigar,
liggr skjöldr yfir..."
The Völva said:

7. "Here stands mead,
for Baldur brewed,
bright liquids (lit. 'clear strengths')
a shield laid over..."

Instead of a plate of hunger and a knife of famine in a dreary hall, Odin sees a rich feast spread for his beloved son. Loki's daughter is nowhere to be found. Arguably, she does not appear in the poems of the Elder Edda.

The place-name Niflheim is unique to Snorri's work. The older Eddic poems instead use the term Niflhel. So, Niflhel, is most likely the same as Snorri's Niflheim, and one of the nine worlds. As shown above, he uses the terms interchangably. Being distinct from it, Hel is most likely another world. Niflhel appears to be a world especially for the wicked dead (adulterers, murderers, and seducers of other men's wives, and their ilk), leaving the world Hel for the remaining dead, not worthy of ascending to Valhalla. According to Vafþrúðnismál, men die "out of Hel" into "Niflhel". The passage from Hel to Niflhel is thus equivilent to the passage from Midgard, the world of living men, into Hel. It constitutes a second death.

In the poems of the Poetic Edda, the word Hel is a place-name referring to the land of the dead, distinct from Niflhel. In Snorri's Edda, Hel is the personal name of Loki's daughter, a terrible being best fit to rule over Niflhel. Snorri calls her realm Niflheim. This explains the confusion among scholars regarding the names and natures of these worlds.

In Gylfaginning 4, Snorri introduces Niflheim as one of two opposing elemental worlds, existing before the creation of the ordered universe:

Fyrr var þat mörgum öldum en jörð var sköpuð er Niflheimr var gerr, ok í honum miðjum liggr bruðr sá, er Hvergelmir heitir, ok þaðan af falla þær ár, er svá heita: Svöl, Gunnþrá, Fjörm, Fimbulþul, Slíðr ok Hríð, Sylgr ok Ylgr, Víð, Leiftr. Gjöll er næst Helgrindum."

"Fyrst var þó sá heimr í suðrhálfu, er Múspell heitir. Hann er ljóss ok heitr. Sú átt er logandi ok brennandi. Er hann ok ófærr þeim, er þar eru útlendir ok eigi eigu þar óðul. Sá er Surtr nefndr, er þar sitr á landsenda til landvarnar. Hann hefir loganda sverð, ok í enda veraldar mun hann fara ok herja ok sigra öll goðin ok brenna allan heim með eldi.
"It was many ages before the earth was shaped that Niflheim was made; and at its center lay the well called Hvergelmir, from which spring the rivers called Svöl, Gunnthrá, Fjörm, Fimbulthul, Slídr and Hríd, Sylgr and Ylgr, Víd, Leiptr; Gjöll is nearest the Hel-gates."

"Yet first was the world in the southern region, which was named Múspell; it is light and hot; that region is glowing and burning, and impassable to foriegners, who have no holdings there. He who sits there at the border, to defend the land, is called Surtr; he brandishes a flaming sword, and at the end of the world he shall go forth and harry, and overcome all the gods, and burn all the world with fire.
Before Odin and his brothers arranged the created worlds, Niflheim, the primordial northern world of ice, was the natural home of the ancient frost-giants. Surt ruled over a southern world of fire.

In Skirnismál 25, after Gerd refuses to accept 11 golden apples and the ring Draupnir, burned on Baldur's breast, Skirnir draws his sword, the blade he got from Frey, and threatens to dispatch the giant maid to the underworld. There, Skirnir says, she will dwell among hrim-thursar ("frost-giants"), joyless and subject to "endless horrors" (v. 30). This place is so horrible, he predicts, she will climb a mountain each morning and look toward Hel (v. 27), but there will be no escape. Naturally this place is identical to Niflheim, the home of the ancient frost-giants.

Skirnir elaborates on the threat. After he kills her with the sword, instead of a bliss-filled life with the lord of harvests, Gerd will be wed to a three-headed thurs (31 cp. 35), but she will never know a man's pleasure (v. 34) for like Ymir, these giants reproduce asexually. Under Ymir's arm, a man and maid sprang together; and together his feet begot a three-headed son. To underscore this point, Skirnir threatens to carve for Gerd the runes thurs, ergi and othala (cold-heartedness, sexual deviancy, and burning lust). She finally relents to his threats and agrees to meet Frey.

Taken together, these statements paint Niflhel (or Niflheim) as a dismal place inhabited by monsters and dead men. Snorri confirms this view in his Edda. He calls the primordial world of ice Niflheim. This appears to be the same realm that the Poetic Edda designates as Niflhel, after the creation of the nine worlds. Thus, before Odin and his brothers created the worlds, there existed a world of ice to the north and a brilliant world of fire to the south, later guarded by Surt (Soot, Black). Between them yawned a great abyss called Ginnungagap, into which the rivers of Niflheim flowed.


The Third World:
A SOUTHERN WORLD OF FIRE

The primary evidence for a world of fire to the south is found in Gylfaginning 6:

Gangleri mælti: "Hversu skipaðist, áðr en ættirnar yrði eða aukaðist mannfólkit?"

Þá mælti Hárr: "Ár þær, er kallaðar eru Élivágar, þá er þær váru svá langt komnar frá uppsprettum, at eitrkvika sú, er þar fylgði, harðnaði svá sem sindr þat, er renn ór eldinum, þá varð þat íss. Ok þá er sá íss gaf staðar ok rann eigi, þá hélði yfir þannig, en úr þat, er af stóð eitrinu, fraus at hrími, ok jók hrímit hvert yfir annat allt í Ginnungagap."

Þá mælti Jafnhárr: "Ginnungagap, þat er vissi til norðrættar, fylltist með þunga ok höfugleik íss ok hríms ok inn í frá úr ok gustr, en inn syðri hlutr Ginnungagaps léttist mót gneistum ok síum þeim, er flugu ór Múspellsheimi."

Þá mælti Þriði: "Svá sem kalt stóð af Niflheimi ok allir hlutir grimmir, svá var allt þat, er vissi námunda Múspelli, heitt ok ljóst, en Ginnungagap var svá hlætt sem loft vindlaust. Ok þá er mættist hrímin ok blær hitans, svá at bráðnaði ok draup, ok af þeim kvikudropum kviknaði með krafti þess, er til sendi hitann, ok varð manns líkandi, ok var sá nefndr Ymir
Gangleri said: What took place before the races came into existence, and men increased and multiplied?

The Har replied, "The rivers called the Elivogs had come so far from their source that the venomous yeast which flowed with them hardened, as does dross that runs from a forge, then it became ice. And when this ice stopped and flowed no more, then the vapor arising from the venom froze into rime, and layer was laid upon layer everywhere in Ginungagap.

Then said Jafnhar: All that part of Ginungagap that turns toward the north was filled with thick and heavy ice and rime, and everywhere within were drizzling rains and gusts. But the southern part of Ginungagap was lighted up by the glowing sparks that flew out of Muspellsheim.

Then Thridi spoke: As cold and all things grim proceeded from Niflheim, all that which bordered on Muspel was hot and bright, and Ginungagap was as warm and mild as windless air. And when the heated blasts met the rime, it melted into living-drops, by the power of him who sent the heat, and took the likeness of a man, who was so named Ymir.

This place —Múspell or Múspellsheim— is the home of Surt. Like Niflheim, the place-names for the southern world of fire are not found in documents older than Snorri's text. Still, we find evidence for its existence in the Poetic Edda. Völuspá 52 states:
Surtr ferr sunnan
með sviga lævi,
skínn af sverði
sól valtíva;
grjótbjörg gnata,
en gífr rata,
troða halir helveg,
en himinn klofnar.
Surt from the south fares
With the bane of branches (i.e. 'fire');
From the sword shines
The sun of the war-god(s).
Rocks dash together
And witches ride,
Men tread the Hel-ways
And heaven is cloven.

As one of the first worlds, Surt's homeland must now be at the very base of the created world structure— i.e. "buried" under the subsequent created worlds. As a foundational world, it lurks at the base of the pyramid. For this reason, the heathen skald Eyvind refers to it as Surts sökkdalir, Surt's sunken-dales. It is located in the deep south.

As shown above, the spring Hvergelmir, which waters the northern root of Yggdrassil, flows out of Niflheim into Ginnungagap. To the south of the great abyss, we find Surt's home. In a verse by the newly-coverted Christian skald Eilífr Guðrúnarson preserved in Skáldskaparmál 65, Christ is said to sit in the judgment seats of the old heathen gods "south at Urd's well" (sunnr at Urðarbrunni). Thus, it would seem that Urd's warm well, in which swans swim, is located in the same direction as Surt's fiery homeland. When Mimir's well Oðrerir, which lies "where Ginnungagap once was" (Gylfaginning 9) is threatened by the "mightest winter" (mestum þorra), Urd is appointed its protector (Hrafnagaldur Óðins 2) The southern position of Urd's well can be confirmed in another way.

Grímnismál 29 warns us why Thor cannot cross over the Bifröst bridge to join the other gods in their daily journey to Urd's well.

Körmt ok Örmt
ok Kerlaugar tvær,
þær skal Þórr vaða
dag hvern,
er hann dæma ferr
at aski Yggdrasils,
því at ásbrú
brenn öll loga,
heilög vötn hlóa
Kormth and Wormth
and the two Charlocks
Thor must wade
every day
when he goes to court
at Yggdrassil's ash
Because (otherwise) the God-bridge
would burn all aflame,
and the holy waters glow.

Should he try to cross Bifröst in his goat-drawn chariot, the bridge would burn and the holy waters (or Urd's well) would boil. Haustlöng's account of Thor's chariot in flight provides a vivid explanation of why this is true:

Ók at ísarnleiki
Jarðar sunr, en dunði,
- móðr svall Meila bróður-
mána vegr und hánum.
Knáttu öll (en) Ullar
(endilág) fyr mági
(grund vas grápi hrundin)
ginnunga vé brinna,
þás hafregin hafrar
hógreiðar framm drógu
(seðr gekk Svölnis ekkja
sundr) at Hrungnis fundi.
And to the game of iron [i.e. 'battle']
The son of Jörd [Thor], thundered
—Wrath swoll Meili’s brother [Thor]—
Moon’s way under him.
All the hawks’ sanctuaries [i.e. 'skies']
were burning because
of Ull’s stepfather [Thor];
The ground was beaten with hail,
when the goats drew the temple-deity [Thor] in his chariot
forth to meet Hrungnir.
Svölnir’s [Odin's] wife [Earth] split asunder.

In motion, Thor's chariot causes the sky to burn and the ground below to tremble. Thus, it can only be ridden through wide-open spaces. If Thor attempted to drive his fiery chariot across Bifröst, the delicate span would burn and break.

At Ragnarök, we see that this is precisely what happens. When Surt arrives from "the south" with the "bane of branches" [fire]. His men ride with him, and the rainbow bridge breaks under the weight of riders, causing the horses to swim in the stream. Fáfnismál 15 says:

Bilröst brotnar,
er þeir á brott fara,
ok svima í móðu marir.
Bil-röst ['Trembling Way', Bifröst] breaks,
when they depart,
and horses swim in the river.

Grimnismal 21 tells us that this stream is too rapid for the battle-slain to wade, thus they need the steady road of "Throdvitnir's fish" (Heimdall's bridge, Bifröst):

Þýtr Þund,
unir Þjóðvitnis
fiskr flóði í.
Árstraumr þykir
ofmikill
valglaumi at vaða.
Thunder roars,
Thjodvitnir's fish (Heimdall's bridge, i.e. Bifröst)*
rests in the flood.
The river-current
seems too strong for
the host of the slain to wade.


*Þjóð-vitnir = "the one with mighty senses" [i.e. Heimdall]; the phrase is usually translated as "the mighty wolf" and scholars have struggled to understand its meaning. The word vitnir, "wolf", however, literally means "one with sharp senses" [see Sveinbjörn Egilsson's Lexicon Poeticum vitnir= ulv egl 'med (skarpe) sanser': wolf literally 'with (sharp) senses']

fiskr = metaphorically "a bridge", since a bridgehead is called a brúar-sporðr, "bridge's fish-tail."

Here, the atmosphere is concieved of as a mighty river, and the shimmering bridge is compared to a fish at rest in the stream. Although the horses of the gods can swim in these 'waters' (i.e. fly), the bridge is necessary to efficiently cross the heavy currents.

In the poems of the Elder Edda, Surt and his men do not ride downward from above through a crack in the sky to reach Asgard, as Snorri describes in Gylfaginning. He likely got this idea from Völuspá 52 cited above. Instead, they most likely pour out from their sunken volcanic homes, far below the surface of the earth and ride upward over Bifröst, the same span that the gods ride down daily to reach Urd's well, according to Grímnismál 29, 30, where they sit in judgment of dead men's souls, determining who can stay in Hel and who must proceed onward to Niflhel. Thus Surt's men ride in the opposite direction that the gods normally do, using Bifröst to reach Asgard from Urd's well, located in Hel near the southern root of the world-tree. On this occasion, the bow breaks leaving them to swim in the fierce currents of the atmospheric sea. The following diagram illustrates this scene:

Heimdall guards the northern span, preventing Frost-giants from reaching Asgard. The gods ride from Asgard to Urd's well daily on the southern span. At Ragnarök, Surt and his men ride up over this same span to reach Asgard.
Bifröst forms a complete arc, just as a natural rainbow would,
with bridgeheads in the north and south of the underworld.

Many modern scholars equate Surt's men with Muspel's Sons. This because, Snorri tells us that they arrive together, through a hole in the sky in Gylfaginning 51. Snorri equates them with the "light-elves" who live in Gimli! But in Völuspá 51-52, we find that "Muspel's sons arrive with Loki from the east", while "Surt arrives with the bane-of-branches ['fire'] from the south." According to Völuspá, Surt and Muspel's sons arrive to the battle separately, from two different directions.

In contrast to this in Gylfaginning 51, Snorri says that Muspel's sons arrive with Surt, riding through a crack in the sky. In Gylfaginning 5, he calls the southern world of fire, variously: Múspell, Múspellsheim ('Muspel's world') and Múspellheim ('Home of Muspel'), as if he was unable to decide on a name for it. According to his own usage, Múspell seems to be the name of a giant whom some scholars identify with Surt. In Gylfaginning 43, Snorri says of the ship Naglfari, built of deadmen's nails, that "Muspel has it". [En Naglfar er mest skip. Þat á Múspell.] This ship best belongs in Niflhel.

In Gylfaginning 51, it's almost as if Snorri portrays Surt and his men as Christian angels of light who have come to destroy worship of the old pagan gods. Considering the Christian thrust of both the Formáli (Prologue) and Gylfaginning, this may have been Snorri's purpose at the final chapter of Gylfaginning. It cannot, however, have been the intent of the heathen poet who composed Völuspá.

Remarkably, this interpretation, based on a literal reading of Snorri's text, led some of the earliest modern scholars to place Muspelheim above Asgard and to identify Muspel's sons with the light-elves! As an older and more reliable source of heathen mythology, Völuspá says:

Kjóll ferr austan,
koma munu Múspells
of lög lýðir,
en Loki stýrir;
fara fíflmegir
með freka allir,
þeim er bróðir
Býleists í för.

Surtr ferr sunnan
með sviga lævi,
skínn af sverði
sól valtíva;
51. That ship fares from the east:
Muspell’s people will come
over the sea,
and Loki steers.
The monster’s kin [Muspel's people?]
all fare with Freki ['Greedy', Fenrir];
with them on their journey
is Byleist's brother [Loki].

52. Surt from the south
comes with the 'bane of branches';
shines from his sword
the sun of the War-god(s).

We find evidence in Lokasenna 42 and in a German poem titled Múspelli that the word múspell is an ancient Germanic word associated with the end times. Nevertheless, the place-name(s) Múspell, Múspellsheim and Múspellheim are unique to Snorri's text and may simply be a back-formation of the tribal names muspels lýðar and muspels sonar, "Muspel's people" and "Muspell's sons" found in the Poetic Edda. Their designations are sometimes translated as "sons (or people) of Destruction". In the Poetic Edda, the term "Muspel's sons" seem to refer to the packs of werewolves born of "the old one in the Iron wood" (Völuspá 40) by Fenrir, Loki's son. They are "Fenrir's children," wolves. Loki himself brings them to the battlefield by ship "from the east" to meet the Aesir. In contrast, Surt and his followers arrive over Bifröst from the south.

Snorri's identification of Surt's men with the Light-elves is found in Gylfaginning 17. There Snorri provides more information about the homes of the Light-elves and the Dark-elves. He doesn't use the terms Ljósalfaheim (Light-elf Home) and Svartalfaheim (Black-elf Home) however. Snorri simply says that Light-elves live in Alfheim, and that Dark-elves live below ground. He writes:

Þá mælti Gangleri: "Mikil tíðendi kannt þú at segja af himninum. Hvat er þar fleira höfuðstaða en at Urðarbrunni?"

Hárr segir: "Margir staðir eru þar göfugligir. Sá er einn staðr þar, er kallaðr er Álfheimr. Þar byggvir fólk þat, er Ljósálfar heita, en Dökkálfar búa niðri í jörðu, ok eru þeir ólíkir þeim sýnum ok miklu ólíkari reyndum. Ljósálfar eru fegri en sól sýnum, en Dökkálfar eru svartari en bik. Þar er einn sá staðr, er Breiðablik er kallaðr, ok engi er þar fegri staðr. Þar er ok sá, er Glitnir heitir, ok eru veggir hans ok steðr allar ok stólpar af rauðu gulli, en þak hans af silfri. Þar er enn sá staðr, er Himinbjörg heita. Sá stendr á himins enda við brúarsporð, þar er Bifröst kemr til himins. Þar er enn mikill staðr, er Valaskjálf heitir. Þann stað á Óðinn. Þann gerðu goðin ok þökðu skíru silfri, ok þar er Hliðskjálfin í þessum sal, þat hásæti, er svá heitir, ok þá er Alföðr sitr í því sæti, þá sér hann of alla heima. Á sunnanverðum himins enda er sá salr, er allra er fegrstr ok bjartari en sólin, er Gimlé heitir. Hann skal standa, þá er bæði himinn ok jörð hefir farizt, ok byggja þann stað góðir menn ok réttlátir of allar aldir. Svá segir í Völuspá:
Then said Gangleri: Great tidings you are able to tell of the heavens. Are there other remarkable places than the one by Urd’s fountain?
Answered Har: There are many magnificent dwellings. One is there called Alfheim. There dwell the folk that are called light-elves; but the dark-elves dwell down in the earth, and they are unlike the light-elves in appearance, but much more so in deeds. The light-elves are fairer than the sun to look upon, but the dark-elves are blacker than pitch. Another place is called Breidablik, and no place is fairer. There is also a mansion called Glitnir, of which the walls and pillars and posts are of red gold, and the roof is of silver. Furthermore, there is a dwelling, by name Himinbjorg, which stands at the end of heaven, where the Bifrost-bridge is united with heaven. And there is a great dwelling called Valaskjalf, which belongs to Odin. The gods made it and thatched it with, sheer silver. In this hall is the high-seat, which is called Hlidskjalf, and when Alfather sits in this seat, he sees over all the world. In the southern end of the world is the palace, which is the fairest of all, and brighter than the sun; its name is Gimli. It shall stand when both heaven and earth shall have passed away. In this hall the good and the righteous shall dwell through all ages. Thus says Völuspá (64):

Sal sér hon standa
sólu fegra,
gulli þakðan
á Gimléi;
þar skulu dyggvar
dróttir byggja
ok um aldrdaga
ynðis njóta.

A hall I know, standing
fairer than the sun,
brighter than gold,
Gimli by name.
There shall good
people dwell,
and forever
enjoy delights.
Þá mælti Gangleri: "Hvat gætir þess staðar, þá er Surtalogi brennir himin ok jörð?"

Hárr segir: "Svá er sagt, at annarr himinn sé suðr ok upp frá þessum himni, ok heitir sá Andlangr, en inn þriði himinn sé enn upp frá þeim, ok heitir sá Víðbláinn, ok á þeim himni hyggjum vér þenna stað vera. En Ljósálfar einir, hyggjum vér, at nú byggvi þá staði."
Then said Gangleri: Who guards this palace when Surt’s fire burns up heaven and earth?

Har answered: It is said that to the south and above this heaven is another heaven, which is called Andlang. But there is a third, which is above these, and is called Vidblain, and in this heaven we believe this mansion (Gimli) to be situated; but we deem that the light-elves alone dwell in it now."

The placename Ljósálfaheim never occurs in the lore. It is a term invented by and carried forward by modern scholars (beginning with Finnur Jónsson, see below), based on the term Svartálfaheim found several times in Snorri's Edda. I shall discuss Snorri's use of the term Svartálfaheim, as the home of dwarves, below (see "The Last World— Svartálfaheim?")

In Gylfaginning, Snorri says that the Light-elves live in Alfheim, which he places in the highest heaven, where the hall Gimli is located.

The idea that Surt's realm "Muspellheim" and Alfheim are higher worlds clearly comes from Gylfaginning 54's account of the battle of Ragnarök. Here, the Sons of Muspel arrive with Surt after the sky is rent in two (inspired by Völuspá 52). As Finnur Magnússon (1825) and Gustav Legis (1829) illustrate, Snorri's text seems to place Muspellheim and Alfheim above Asgard. Accordingly Snorri says that Surt and Muspel's sons ride together through the crack in the sky, presumably downward from above. This contradicts the testimony of Völuspá, which Snorri cites as evidence of his own correctness! There they ride from opposite directions.

Gylfaginning 54:

Hrymr heitir jötunn, er stýrir Naglfari, en Fenrisúlfr ferr með gapandi munn, ok er inn neðri kjöftr við jörðu, en in efri við himin. Gapa myndi hann meira, ef rúm væri til. Eldar brenna ór augum hans ok nösum. Miðgarðsormr blæss svá eitrinu, at hann dreifir loft öll ok lög, ok er hann allógurligr, ok er hann á aðra hlið úlfinum. Í þessum gný klofnar himinninn, ok ríða þaðan Múspellssynir. Surtr ríðr fyrst ok fyrir honum ok eftir eldr brennandi. Sverð hans er gott mjök. Af því skínn bjartara en af sólu. En er þeir ríða Bifröst, þá brotnar hon, sem fyrr er sagt. Múspellsmegir sækja fram á þann völl, er Vígríðr heitir. Þar kemr ok þá Fenrisúlfr ok Miðgarðsormr. Þar er ok þá Loki kominn ok Hrymr ok með honum allir hrímþursar, en Loka fylgja allir Heljarsinnar. En Múspellssynir hafa einir sér fylking, ok er sú björt mjök. Völlrinn Vígríðr er hundrað rasta víðr á hvern veg.




The Fenris-wolf advances with wide open mouth; the upper jaw reaches to heaven and the lower jaw is on the earth. He would open it still wider had he room. Fire flashes from his eyes and nostrils. The Midgard-serpent vomits forth venom, defiling all the air and the sea; he is very terrible, and places himself by the side of the wolf. In the midst of this clash and din the heavens are rent in twain, and Muspell's sons come riding through the opening. Surt rides first, and before him and after him flames burning fire. He has a very good sword, which shines brighter than the sun. As they ride over Bifrost it breaks to pieces, as has before been stated. Muspell's sons direct their course to the plain which is called Vigrid. Thither repair also the Fenris-wolf and the Midgard-serpent. To this place have also come Loki and Hrym, and with him all the frost-giants. In Loki’s company are all the friends of Hel. Muspell's sons have thier troops apart, and they are very bright. The plain Vigrid is one hundred miles (rasts) on each side.

In an apparent attempt to reconcile his work with Völuspá, Snorri tells us that Gimli is located in the southern portion of heaven. Comparing this to his citation of Völuspá, however, we see that only Surt arrives from the south (verse 52); while in verse 51, Muspel's sons arrive with Loki from the east. Völuspá 64 gives no direction for Gimli.

Snorri's understanding of Völuspá's Ragnarök sequence calls into question his name for the southern world of fire. There is no reason to call it Múspel, Múspellsheim or Múspellheim, if Muspel's sons do not dwell there. As noted before, in the poetic sources, the southern world of fire is simply called Surts sökkdalir, "Surt's sunken-dales." And, as shown above, we can safely do away with Ljósalfaheim. Instead we have Alfheim.

The Fourth World
ÁLFHEIM

In Gylfaginning 17, Snorri informs us that only Light-elves live in Álfheim. Dark-elves he says abide beneath the earth. He does not use the modern term Ljósálfaheim to designate their home. As confirmation, we also find Álfheim as a place-name in older poetry. It occurs once in the Poetic Edda in Grímnismál 5. The preceding verse, Grímnismál 4, informs us that Thrudheim, Thor's home in Asgard, lies closest to the Æsir and the Alfar:

Land er heilagt,
er ek liggja sé
ásum ok álfum nær
en í Þrúðheimi
skal Þór vera,
unz of rjúfask regin
4. Holy is the land,
which I see lying
to Æsir and Alfar near;
but in Thrudheim
Thor shall dwell
until the powers perish.


When Thor travels from Asgard to meet the giant Hymir in Jötunheim, Hymiskviða 7 (cp. 38) gives us some sense of direction:

Fóru drjúgum
dag þann fram
Ásgarði frá,
unz til Egils kvámu;
hirði hann hafra
horngöfgasta;
hurfu at höllu,
er Hymir átti.
7. They travelled
far that day
from Asgard,
until they reached Egil’s.
He took care of the goats,
with the splendid horns,
while they turned away
towards Hymir’s hall.

On the way from Asgard (located 'up' in the sky) to Jötunheim ('in the east'), Thor stops and leaves his goat-team and chariot at the home of a person named Egill. The exact location of Egill the goat-keep’s, house is not stated in the surviving lore. However, the available clues provide some indication of where it was thought to be. When Thor leaves his goat-team behind, safe at Egill's, he heads east on foot toward Hymir's hall. Hymir, we are told, lives “east of the Elivagor” at “the edge of heaven.” (Hymiskviða 5/1-4).


Býr fyr austan
Élivága
hundvíss Hymir
at himins enda;
5. "Dwells east of
Elivagor (‘Icy waves’)
Much-wise Hymir
at heaven’s end."

If Hymir's home is 'east of the Elivagor' (Ice-waves) and we know that Thor regularly crosses a body of water to enter Jötunheim then Egill's must be west of these same waters, on the opposite shore as Jötunheim, on the Midgard-side of the boundary waters.

In the Poetic Edda, the only other Egill we find is the brother of the famous smith Völund. In Völundarkviða, Völund and Egil are "elf-princes" and "sons of a Finnish king". In fact, the Lapps (Saami) are often equated with the elves in the Icelandic sources. Geographically, Finland is north-east of Scandinavia, and continuing the same direction one encounters the Arctic Ocean. The mythic worlds of Jötunheim and Niflhel lie to the east and to the north respectively. Both lands are inhabited by giants hostile to the gods. Once in Jötunheim, Thor and Hymir fish for the Midgard serpent. The Snake circles the known world biting its own tail. His home is the great river which rings the world. Thor crossed these waters to reach Hymir's, and will flee over them with Hymir's kettle when he leaves. His belt of strength gives him the power to "grow as high as heaven" so that he may wade these waters safely. (See Ásmegin: Thor's Might and the Belt of Strength)

In Hymiskviða, Thor leaves his goats on the opposite shore, safe with Egill in Álfheim before crossing over with Tyr, then he and the giant venture out on the same waters to fish for the Midgard Serpent. Thus, its head and tail were thought to lie in the northern Arctic waters. In a poetic metaphor found in Þórsdrápa 5, these waters are said to be as cold as venom. in Skáldskaparmál 25, when Thor carries his friend Aurvandill across these waters in a basket on his back, one of his toes is left exposed to the venomous liquid. As a result, the toe turns black from frost-bite. Thor breaks it off and makes a star of it. Völuspá informs us that at Ragnarök, Thor will succomb to this same venom, stepping back nine paces before falling.

Grímnismál 4 informs us that Thor's home Thrudheim lies closest to the land of the Aesir and the Alfar. Egill, the "peasant" (bondi) who keeps his goats, is an elf-prince and the son of a Finnish king according to Völundarkviða. In Hymiskviða 37 (cp. Gylfaginning 44), we discover that Egill's home is where Thor gained his servant Thjálfi, whose very name contains the word alf. For this reason, he is often identified as such in modern scholarship.

From the available evidence, Alfheim seems to be a way-station for Thor on his journey from Asgard to Jötunheim. Thor leaves his goat-car there and enters the land of giants on foot, first crossing a great body of water. It should come as no surprise then that Váfthrúðnismál 16 speaks of boundary waters located between Jötunheim and Asgard.

"Ífing heitir á,
er deilir með
jötna sonum grund
ok með goðum;
opin renna hon skal of aldrdaga;
verðr-at íss á á."
16. That river is called Ifing
That cuts off the land
Of the giants’ sons
From the gods;
It runs open throughout all time.
On that river no ice forms.


In Hymiskviða, it is apparent that Hymir lives near the 'river' that circles Midgard. We know this, because he and Thor go fishing on it, and Thor catches the Midgard Serpent in its waters. Therefore, it is probable that Elivagor ('Icy-waves') is another name of Ifing, the river that rings the world. It is bitter-cold, but never freezes over. Like all mythic things, it is known by more than one name. This river is the Arctic ocean. Jötunheim lies beyond its waters (within the Arctic Circle). From there, the way to Niflhel is "north and down". In Saxo Book 8, the adventurer Thorkill arrives there by ship, sailing due north into the murky darkness, leaving the sun and stars behind. In real world geography, these turbulent icy waters were known as The White Sea, and as Gandvik, the 'Magic-bay'.

The Fifth World
Vanaheim: Home of the Vanir

In Váfthrúðnismál 16, we discover that at Ragnarök, the sea-god Njörd will return to his homeland Vanaheim, westward across the sea.

Óðinn kvað:

38. "Seg þú þat it tíunda,
alls þú tíva rök öll,
Vafþrúðnir, vitir,
hvaðan Njörðr of kom
með ása sonum
hofum ok hörgum
hann ræðr hundmörgum
- ok varð-at hann ásum alinn."

Vafþrúðnir kvað:

39. "Í Vanaheimi
skópu hann vís regin
ok seldu at gíslingu goðum,
í aldar rök hann mun
aftr koma heim
með vísum vönum."

Gagnrad

38. Tell me tenthly,
since thou all the origin
of the gods knowest, Vafthrudnir!
whence Niörd came
among the Æsir´s sons?
O’er fanes and offer-steads
he rules by hundreds,
yet was not among the Æsir born.

Vafthrudnir

39. In Vanaheim
wise powers him created,
and to the gods a hostage gave.
At the world’s dissolution
he will return
to the wise Vanir.

The Vanir are a powerful clan of gods who once defeated the Æsir in war (Völuspá 23-24). Their native home is Vanaheim. We might also assume that Njörd's hall Noatun (Ship-yard) is located there.

Because the Vanir are a tribe of gods akin to the Æsir, Vanaheim is typically placed alongside Asgard in the heavens. However, it is probably best placed across the western sea from Midgard, opposite from Jötunheim. Perhaps related to this, Baldrs Draumr 11 informs us that "Rind bore Vali," Baldur's avenger, "in western halls." In contrast, Odin's avenger, Vidar is born to the giantess Grid, who lives in the east.

Sixth, Seventh and Eighth Worlds
DOING THE MATH

I believe that the evidence for Midgard, Asgard, and Jötunheim (the homes of men, gods and giants respectively) are too well established to require explanation.

Midgard, the home of Men, is found as a placename in Völuspá (4, 56), Harbarðsljóð 23, and Hyndluljóð (11, 16), as well as being attested in various forms in several later Germanic works.

In the Poetic Edda, Asgard appears as a place-name in Þrymskviða 18 and Hymiskviða 7. In the skaldic poem Sonnatorrek, preserved in Egils Saga, we are told that Goðheim ('Home of the Gods') is located above Midgard. The poet, whose son died young, expresses his hope that Odin has taken him to Valhalla, "up in Godheim" (es upp of hóf í Goðheim).

Jötunheim, the home of the Jötuns, is named in a number of Eddic poems including Völuspá (8, 48), Skírnismál 40, and Þrymskviða (7, 12, 13, 20, 21, 26, 28). Occassionally, some illustrations of Yggdrassil will include Utgard, a place-name found in Gylfaginning, either as a separate world or as a city in Jötunheim. For example, the map of Yggdrassil in Kevin Crossley-Holland's The Norse Myths (1988) lists Utgard as "a citadel of the giants" in the world of Jötunheim. Yet, he lists Asgard as "the world of the gods." Using the logic applied to Utgard, Asgard might best be described as a "citadel of the Æsir" located in the world called Goðheim.


Numerous models of the 9 worlds have been patterned on this illustration.

Based on evidence found in the tale of Utgard-Loki as told by Snorri in Gylfaginning 45 and 46 and references to the same myth in Harbarðsljóð 26 (compared to Hávamál 12 and 104-110), Utgard is best understood as another name for Surts sökkdalir, the southern world of fire. Utgard-Loki appears to be the fire-giant Suttung, also called Fjalar. He commands Logi (wildfire) and is a master of "eye-spells" (heat mirages). The fire that consumes the world at Ragnarök is known as Surtarlogi, Surt's wildfire, and the name Suttung may be interpreted as a condensed form of Surts ungr, Surt's son. Surts sökkdalir is the only name the old poems give us for the fiery realm that Snorri calls Muspell. Snorri calls this same place Utgard later in Gylfaginning.

For reasons that are unclear to me, some accounts of the nine worlds in modern scholarship identify Utgard as the underworld. In regard to location, I would tend to agree, placing it directly below Hel, not for the same reasons, but rather for those which I have already given above. As one of the primoridal worlds, "Surt's sunken dales" lies at the very base of the created worlds. When he destroys the upper worlds with fire at Ragnarök, his flames burn up the created worlds, leaving the lower world (the original plain) as a "new earth" in its place. Thus, the fields that the gods tread upon in their youth (Idavellir, Völuspá 7) are found again in the "new" world (Völuspá 58). There the surviving Æsir find the golden game-pieces that their parents played with in the earliest days. Properly it is Mimir's realm, "where Ginnungagap once was" (Gylfaginning 9). Thus, the human survivors Lif and Lifthraisir, emerge from Hoddmimis holt, "Hoard-Mimir's grove" when the fire subsides.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
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Fixed Cross
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Re: The Philosophers

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:47 pm

So without further speculation, I think we can safely name most of the nine worlds as found in the surviving lore. In no particular order, we have:

1. Asgard
2. Midgard
3. Jötunheim
4.Vanaheim
5. Alfheim
6. Surts Sökk-dalir (Snorri's Muspell, Muspellsheim, and Muspellheim)
7. Hel
8. Nifhel (probably also Niflheim)
That brings our count to eight worlds. These are the ones that appear by name in the lore. Most notably, we are lacking a home for the dwarves, and we have an additional place-name to account for found only in Snorri's Edda, i.e. Svartálfaheim, home of the black-elves.


The Last World
Svartálfaheim, Home of the Dwarves?

In most all of the models of the nine worlds, we find the world Svartálfaheim, a term found only in Snorri's Edda. As shown above, instead of Ljósalfaheim, "home of the light-elves", we simply find Alfheim, home of the elves. Snorri informs us that only "light-elves" live in Alfheim, but that "dark-elves" (dökk-alfar) live "below the earth." Noticeably absent from these lists is a home for the dwarves (dvergr), beings well-known in the lore. Instead we find Svartálfaheim, home of svart or black-elves (cp. dökkalfar). Oddly, time and again, Snorri identifies Svartálfaheim as the home of dwarves. This lack of clarity on Snorri's part has understandably lead to much confusion in modern times.

Because, Snorri says in Gylfaginning 17 that the dökk-álfar (dark-elves) "dwell down in the earth" and that they are "black as pitch," the dökk-alfar (dark-elves) are commonly understood to be identical with the svart-alfar (black-elves) in modern scholarship and in turn are commonly interpreted as dwarves, based on additional statements in Snorri's Edda. This use of multiple terms for a single class of beings suggests confusion on Snorri's part regarding the dwarves, or perhaps that his idea developed as he wrote the text.

Anthony Faulkes in his Glossary to Skáldskaparmál (1998) remarks "svartálfar are not mentioned in sources older than Snorri and were possibly conceived of as identical to dwarfs." Snorri's text supports this view. In Gylfaginning 34, he states:

Eftir þat óttuðust æsirnar, at þeir myndi eigi fá bundit úlfinn. Þá sendi Alföðr þann, er Skírnir er nefndr, sendimaðr Freys, ofan í Svartálfaheim til dverga nökkurra ok lét gera fjötur þann, er Gleipnir heitir.
Then Allfather sent him who is called Skírnir, Freyr's messenger, down into Svartálfaheim, to certain dwarves, and caused to be made the fetter named Gleipnir.


And again in Skáldskaparmál 36:

Þá sendi Óðinn Loka í Svartálfaheim, ok kom hann til dvergs þess, er heitir Andvari. Hann var fiskr í vatni, ok tók Loki hann höndum ok lagði á hann fjörlausn allt þat gull, er hann átti í steini sínum. Ok er þeir koma í steininn, þá bar dvergrinn fram allt gull, þat er hann átti, ok var þat allmikit fé. Þá svipti dvergrinn undir hönd sér einum litlum gullbaug.
Thereupon Odin sent Loki into Svartálfaheim, and he came to the dwarf who is called Andvari, who was as a fish in the water. Loki caught him in his hands and required of him in ransom of his life all the gold that he had in his rock; and when they came within the rock, the dwarf brought forth all the gold he had, and it was very much wealth.

If we accept that the dark-elves (dökk-alfar) and the black-elves (svart-alfar) are identical then their home Svartálfaheim must be a subterranean. Their home appears to be located under the northern root of Yggdrassil according to Hrafnagaldur Odins 25:

Jörmungrundar
í jódyr nyrðra
und rót yztu
aðalþollar
gengu til rekkju
gýgjur og þursar,
náir, dvergar
og dökkálfar.
At Jörmungrund's
northern border,
under the outermost root
of the noble tree,
went to their couches
ogresses and thuses,
dead men, dwarves,
and dark-elves.

This verse, however, appears to distinquish between dark-elves and dwarves. Snorri on the other hand seems to equate dwarves with black-elves. In Skáldskaparmál 43, after Loki has cut off the golden hair of Thor's wife Sif, the Thundergod threatens him, until Loki promises to persuade artisans to replace what he has damaged:

En er Þórr varð þess varr, tók hann Loka ok myndi lemja hvert bein í honum, áðr hann svarði þess, at hann skal fá af Svartálfum, at þeir skulu gera af gulli Sifju hadd þann, er svá skal vaxa sem annat hár. Eftir þat fór Loki til þeira dverga, er heita Ívaldasynir, ok gerðu þeir haddinn ok Skíðblaðni
But when Thor learned of this, he seized Loki, and would have broken every bone in him, had he not sworn to get the Black Elves to make Sif hair of gold, such that it would grow like other hair. After that, Loki went to those dwarves called Ívaldi's Sons; and they made the hair, and Skídbladnir also.

Earlier in Gylfaginning 43, Snorri identifies Ivaldi's sons are dwarves:

Dvergar nökkurir, synir Ívalda, gerðu Skíðblaðni ok gáfu Frey skipit.
Certain dwarves, sons of Ívaldi, made Skídbladnir and gave the ship to Freyr.

However, using passages from the eddic poetry, we have reason to believe that Ivaldi's sons were originally conceived of as elves (Alfar). In Hrafnagaldur Odins 6, the goddess Idunn is said to be their sister.

Dvelur í dölum
dís forvitin,
Yggdrasils frá
aski hnigin;
álfa ættar
Iðunni hétu,
Ívalds ellri
ýngsta barna.

Dwells in dales
the curious dis,
from Yggdrasil‘s
ash descended,
of elven kin,
Idunn by name,
Ivaldi‘s youngest
elder child.

In Grimnísmál 5, we learn that Alfheim was given to Frey upon cutting his first tooth. Thus, the elves are subject to him. Lokasenna 2 speaks of the Æsir and Álfar gathered in the hall, when Loki bursts in and insults the gathered gods. Among those seated inside we find Idunn, as well as servants of Frey named Byggvir and Beyla. Thus indeed we find Alfar (elves) mingled with the Æsir in the hall.

I suggest that Snorri's confusion between the "álfar" (elves) and "dvergr" (dwarves) was likely caused, at least in part, by the so-called dwarf-list of Völuspá, which contains the names of both dwarves and elves. This list, however, is not considered to be an original part of the poem, and is generally thought to have been interpolated with additional names by copyists.

In Gylfaginning 14, Snorri speaks of the creation of the dwarves, citing Völuspá 10 and 11 as support.

Þar næst settust goðin upp í sæti sín ok réttu dóma sína ok minntust, hvaðan dvergar höfðu kviknat í moldinni ok niðri í jörðunni, svá sem maðkar í holdi. Dvergarnir höfðu skipazt fyrst ok tekit kviknun í holdi Ymis ok váru þá maðkar, en af atkvæðum goðanna urðu þeir vitandi mannvits ok höfðu manns líki ok búa þó í jörðu ok í steinum. Móðsognir var æðstr ok annarr Durinn.
Next, the gods sat in their seats and held judgment, and minded whence the dwarves had quickened in the mould down in the earth, even as do maggots in flesh. The dwarves had first received form and life in the Ymir's flesh, and were then maggots; but by decree of the gods had become conscious with the intelligence of men, and had human shape. And yet they dwell in the earth and in stones. Módsognir was the first, and Durinn the second.

Immediately following this, Snorri begins reciting the so-called "dwarf-list" from Völuspá 11-16, a þula which includes obvious names of elves such as Álfr, Gandálfr, and Vindálfr. In the midst of this, Snorri says: "And these also are dwarves and dwell in stones, but the first in mould" (En þessir eru ok dvergar ok búa í steinum, en inir fyrri í moldu). Yet, in Gylfaginning 15, Snorri clearly distinquishes between elves and dwarves, citing a verse from the the Eddic poem Fafnismál as support:


Enn eru fleiri nornir, þær er koma til hvers barns, er borit er, at skapa aldr, ok eru þessar goðkunnigar, en aðrar álfa ættar, en inar þriðju dverga ættar, svá sem hér segir:

Sundrbornar mjök
segi ek nornir vera,
eigu-t þær ætt saman;
sumar eru áskunngar,
sumar eru alfkunngar,
sumar dætr Dvalins."
There are many norns: those who come to each child that is born, to appoint his life; these are of the race of the gods, but the second are the kin of elves, and the third are the kindred of dwarves, as it is said here:

Most sundered in birth
I say the Norns are;
They claim no common kin:
Some are of Æsir-kin,
some are of Elf-kin,
Some are Dvalinn's daughters."
In Völuspá 14, Dvalinn is said to lead his own band of dwarves (dverga í Dvalins liði). Dvalinn is the name of a famous dwarf, best known for spreading runic knowledge among his people (Hávamál 143). In the same verse, Dáinn spreads runes among the elves (alfar), suggesting a separation between the two tribes. In Völuspá 48, we also find a separation between the elves and the dwarves in a single verse:

Hvat er með ásum?
Hvat er með alfum?
Ymr allr Jötunheimr,
æsir ro á þingi,
stynja dvergar
fyrir steindurum,
veggbergs vísir.

What of the Æsir?
What of the elves?
All Jötunheim resounds
The Æsir are at council;
The dwarves groan
Before stone doors,
Wise in rock-walls
Due to this confusion among dark-elves, black-elves and dwarves in the Prose Edda, not being shared in the poems of the Poetic Edda, the place-name Svartálfaheim as a designation for the home of dwarves is suspect. Because of the dwarf-list in Völuspá, which includes the names of elves, it seems likely that Snorri either created the term "Svart (Black)-elves" or else misunderstood and built upon the term "Dökk (Dark)-elves" he encountered in some source, now lost to us. The term svartálfar is unique to Snorri's text and not found in the older poems. The term dökkálfar also appears in the Eddic poem Hrafnagaldur Óðinns 25, but the age and authencity of the poem is in dispute. Some modern scholars consider it a modern imitation penned in the 17th century, and there is no indication that Snorri knew this poem.

Another possible name for the home of dwarves found in older poetry is Nidavellir (No Moon Plains), a geographical term used in Völuspá 36. Worthy of remark, in some of the more recent models which combine Hel and Niflhel into a single world, we also find the "world" Nidavellir listed among the nine. However, these maps also frquently include the redundant world Svartálfaheim. From Völuspá, we learn that Nidavellir contains a golden hall which is the home of "Sindri's race." Sindri is the name of a famous dwarf who created Thor's hammer, with help from his brother Brokk (Skáldskaparmál 43). Thus, like Svartálfaheim in the Prose Edda, Nidavellir is inhabited by artisan dwarves in the Poetic Edda.

Stóð fyr norðan
á Niðavöllum
salr ór gulli
Sindra ættar;
en annarr stóð
á Ókólni
bjórsalr jötuns,
en sá Brimir heitir.

On the north there stood,
on Nida-vellir (No Moon Plains),
a hall of gold,
for Sindri’s race;
and another stood
in Okolnir (Not Cold),
the Jötun's beer-hall
who is named Brimir.
Mentioned alongside Sindri's hall, we find the "beer-hall" of a giant named Brimir. Earlier the same poem informs us that the dwarves were created from "Brimir's blood" and "Blainn's limbs." Brimir and Blainn are commonly taken to be alternate names of Ymir, the primeval giant whose body was used to create the world. I'd like to suggest another possibility.
Snorri tells us that the dwarves first grew as maggots in Ymir's flesh. Thus, Blainn (the Blue One) is likely a poetic name for Ymir, who was slain by Odin and his brothers and whose body was used as raw material to build the upper worlds. Brimir, however, seems to be associated with Mimir. As one of the oldest beings, older than Odin, Mimir must be one of the first created beings. As such, he could be a son of Ymir himself. Since Odin is the third generation from Ymir, Mimir must be among the first or second generations. The choices are limited. Vafþrúðnismál 33 says us that "a boy and a girl together" were born under Ymir's arm. As some of the first beings, Mimir and Urd may well be that boy and girl. The evidence is simply too slight to base any conclusions on.

The association between Brimir and Mimir is most apparent in Sigrdrifumál 14:

Á bjargi stóð
með Brimis eggjar,
hafði sér á höfði hjalm;
þá mælti Mímis höfuð
fróðligt it fyrsta orð
ok sagði sanna stafi.
On the cliff he stood
with Brimir's sword
a helmet he had on his head;
then Mim's head spoke
wisely the first word
and told true staves.

Odin also speaks with Mimir's head, just before the battle of Ragnarök in Völuspá 45, and pawns an eye for a drink of Mimir's well in Völuspá 28. The expression "Brimir's sword" may be a poetic metaphor meaning "Brimir's head" as Snorri says a head could be called "Heimdall's sword" since he was killed with a man's head. If so, then the verse simply says that when Odin stood on a cliff with "Brimir's sword" (i.e. Brimir's head), then "Mimir's head" spoke to him wisely. It is not uncommon in eddic poems to restate the same thing which appears in the first half of the stanza using poetic metaphor, in the second half of the stanza more plainly. As it stands Brimir's blood is associated with Blainn's (Ymir's) limbs as components in the creation of the dwarves, and the giant Brimir has a beer-hall in the vicinity of a hall for dwarves. In the same poem, Mimir is said to drink mead "every morning" from his well, the same spring in which Odin pawned his eye. The name Brimir is also directly associated with Mimir's head in Sigrdrifumal 14, which speaks with Odin, as it does in Völuspá 45.

"Brimir's blood" suggests a liquid. Here it is used in a creative process, along with "Blainn's limbs" (Ymir's flesh) to create the dwarves. In poetic language, any type of liquid can be substituted for any other. For example, in Fafnismál 14, blood is called "the liquor of the sword" (hjörlegi). I suggest that "Brimir's blood" here refers to the creative liquid in Mimir's well. Thus Mimir may have had a hand in the creation of the dwarves. Völuspá 10-11 suggest as much. (See Commentary on Völuspá 10-11).

We have good reason to associate Mimir with the dwarves:

—Motsognir ('Mead-sucker', 'Mead-drinker') is said to be the foremost or master of the dwarves in Völuspá 10, taking part in their creation.
—In the same poem, Mimir is said to drink mead each morning from his well (Völuspá 28)
—Óðrerir is both a name for the poetic mead and for Mimir's mead-well, from which Odin pawns an eye for a drink. (Gylfaginning, Hávamál, Hrafnagaldur Óðins)
— The poetic mead is also known as Dvalinns drykkr, the drink of the dwarf Dvalinn (Skáldskaparmál 10).
—Mime der Alt ('Mimir the Old') is the master of the dwarves in Germanic mythology. (Þidreks saga af Bern)
—The dwarves are makers of weapons and valueable treasures such as Odin's spear, Thor's hammer, the ring Draupnir, and Freyja's necklace Brisingamen.
—Mimir is the famous keeper of treasures such as Heimdall's horn (Völuspá 27). In Vafþrúðnismál 44, he is called Hoddmimir, Hoard-Mimir. The living human beings Lif and Lifthrasir emerge from his holt, "grove" after Surt's fire has slackened. The U manuscript of Gylfaginning 53 says instead that they hid themselves in Mimis holdi (Mimir's flesh), a parallel formation to Ymis holdi (Ymir's flesh), used in Grímnismál 40-41. This suggests a conceptual relationship between these two ancient giants, both of whom were beheaded.

So it's no stretch to consider Mimir's realm to be the home of the dwarves. Gylfaginning 9 tells us that Mimir's realm is located "where Ginnungagap once was." In other words, it is situated directly between the southern world of fire and the northern world of ice which existed before the creation of the upper worlds by Odin and his brothers.



Ginnungagap was the birthplace of Ymir, and the origin of all life. Here, when the sparks from the south met the ice-floes from the north, life quickened from the venomous drops, developing into Ymir and Audhumbla, the primoridal giant and the primeval cow, the source of all life. Mimir's well is located at the physical and spiritual center of all creation. As such, Yggdrassil is called Mimameiðr, 'Mimir's Tree' (Fjölsvinnsmál 24). Rising up the trunk of the tree, we find Midgard and Valhalla in Asgard as other central points along the vertical axis of the Tree.

In several of the Icelandic Fornaldarsagas and in Saxo's Danish History Books 1 and 8, we encounter the giant Gudmund who is the ruler of the "Glittering-Plains" (Glæsisvellir). He is a giant and champion of the heathen faith. His is a rich, fertile country, a neighbor of the realm of the giants. Gudmund of Glæsisvellir appears to be a historic memory of the mythic Mimir, the treasure-hoarder, Odin's life-long counsellor.

As the physical and symbolic centre of the universe, Mimir's realm is the DNA of the entire universe, the seed inside the World-Tree. It is a world onto itself. Gylfaginning 9 informs us that Mimir's well stands where Ginnungagap once was. From this same place, all life in the universe sprung from its "living drops" (kvikkdroppar). Hávamál assures us that "no one knows from what root it springs." His home, Hoddmimis holt is conceived of as a grove, and serves as the divine archetype of the earthly sacred grove where men gather in worship.




In this diagram, I believe that Mimir's realm and the native home of the dwarves should be added as an enclosure within Hel, surrounding the green dot in the illustration. It is a self-contained biosphere surrounded by an impenetrable wall. In Book 1 of Saxo's History, the hero Hadding sees this place ringed with a high wall, on a journey to theland "where men must go when they die." Nothing dead may enter there. His guide wrings off the head of a rooster and throws it over the wall. The head returns, and the cock crows, attesting to its resurrection. Gudrunarkviða II, 23 calls this place "Hadding's land", as the hero once visited there. Eiriksaga refers to it as Óðains-akr, the 'Acre of the Not-dead'. It is an oasis of life within the kingdom of death. Mimir is its ruler and caretaker. For this reason, Fjölvinnsmál 20 calls Yggdrasil "Mimir's Tree". His home is the place called "Hel's high hall" in Baldurs Draumar, to which Baldur comes after death. Inside bright mead is poured out in goblets awaiting his arrival (cp. Brimir's beer-hall in Völuspá 36). Only Hermod on Sleipnir is able to leap the otherwise impregnable wall. Inside, it is lavishly adorned, quite unlike the bleak hall of Loki's daughter. From there, Völuspá informs us Baldur and Höður will return, along with the "living men" (mennskir menn, Grímnismál 31) Lif and Lifthrasir, according to Vafþrúðnismál 45.

Mimir is called Hodd-Mimir, Hoard-Mimir. He is known for keeping treasures, and is a king of the dwarves, the tireless artisans of Norse mythology. In Grimnismal 17, this place is referred to as hodd goða, 'the hoard of the gods', all the rivers of Hel wind round it, making the place impregnable. As the archetypal 'sacred grove', Mimir's holt is a physical and spiritual paradise at the heart of the organized universe. In a sense, it acts as a seed within Yggdrassil, which will replenish the worlds with new life, after the fires of Ragnarök have died out.


In Conclusion
THE NINE WORLDS OF NORSE MYTHOLOGY

Based on a thorough investigation of the source material, placing greater weight on the heathen poems of the Poetic Edda than on the later prose retellings of Snorri Sturluson, a list of the nine worlds consists of the following realms:

1. Asgard or Godheim (Home of the Gods)
2. Midgard or Mannheim (Home of Men)
3. Alfheim (Home of the Elves)
4. Jötunheim (Home of the Giants)
5. Vanaheim (Home of the Vanir)
6. Hel (Home of Urd and the Blessed Dead)
7. Surts Sökkdalir or Utgard (Southern World of Fire)
8. Hoddmimis Holt (Home of Mimir and the Dwarves)
9. Niflhel or Niflheim (Northern World of Ice, Realm of the Damned)


FOUR HISTORIC ATTEMPTS TO MAP
THE NINE WORLDS OF NORSE MYTHOLOGY



[NORSE COSMOLOGY] [HOME]
[See Also: Going to Hel: The Consequences of a Heathen Life]

http://www.germanicmythology.com/original/9Worlds.html

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