ILovePhilosophy.com

Life is pain. mentioning pain in relation to something such as withdrawals, set right alongside of what society tells us, is one of those stupid things that we as humans do that become cliche, but we can't really help ourselves from getting one good-natured bitch in. I think that many of us, having seen how many around us were whining and crying, and somewhat being blind to our whining and crying at times, each in our own way, those of us that mattered, found a way to take inspiration from others to not whine so much about certain things, yet can't help but talk about it. It's like, I knew better, I knew, but.... -cry- ...just a little bit, though.

Society doesn't exist enough to tell anyone anything. S'just people.

My friend thought this song was about they had killed someone.

MagsJ wrote:

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Drugs are not some shadow that hangs over me. They are something I am grateful for for having made me and I stay the fuck away from to protect this glorious shit I now have.

Hats off to you for ^this^ sir, for this ingenious piece of thinking.

Your compliment is an honor.

Life after Armaggedon seems to hold an endless supply of little gifts. Did I say little? I meant precious.

The first requirement is that we be convinced that any life run on self-will can hardly be a success. On that basis we are almost always in collision with something or somebody, even though our motives are good.

Most people try to live by self-propulsion. Each person is like an actor who wants to run the whole show; is forever trying to arrange the lights, the ballet, the scenery and the rest of the players in his own way. If his arrangements would only stay put, if only people would do as he wished, the show would be great. Everybody, including himself, would be pleased. Life would be wonderful. In trying to make these arrangements our actor may sometimes be quite virtuous. He may be kind, considerate, patient, generous; even modest and self-sacrificing. On the other hand, he may be mean, egotistical, selfish and dishonest. But, as with most humans, he is more likely to have varied traits.

What usually happens? The show doesn’t come off very well. He begins to think life doesn’t treat him right. He decides to exert himself more. He becomes, on the next occasion, still more demanding or gracious, as the case may be. Still the play does not suit him. Admitting he may be somewhat at fault, he is sure that other people are more to blame. He becomes angry, indignant, self-pitying. What is his basic trouble? Is he not really a self-seeker even when trying to be kind? Is he not a victim of the delusion that he can wrest satisfaction and happiness out of this world if he only manages well? Is it not evident to all the rest of the players that these are the things he wants? And do not his actions make each of them wish to retaliate, snatching all they can get out of the show? Is he not, even in his best moments, a producer of confusion rather than harmony?

Our actor is self-centered—ego-centric, as people like to call it nowadays. He is like the retired business man who lolls in the Florida sunshine in the winter complaining of the sad state of the nation; the minister who sighs over the sins of the twentieth century; politicians and reformers who are sure all would be Utopia if the rest of the world would only behave; the outlaw safe cracker who thinks society has wronged him; and the alcoholic who has lost all and is locked up. Whatever our protestations, are not most of us concerned with ourselves, our resentments, or our self-pity? Selfishness—self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles. Driven by a hundred forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking, and self-pity, we step on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate. Sometimes they hurt us, seemingly without provocation, but we invariably find that at some time in the past we have made decisions based on self which later placed us in a position to be hurt.

So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn’t think so. Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kills us! God makes that possible. And there often seems no way of entirely getting rid of self without His aid. Many of us had moral and philosophical convictions galore, but we could not live up to them even though we would have liked to. Neither could we reduce our self-centeredness much by wishing or trying on our own power. We had to have God’s help.

This is the how and why of it. First of all, we had to quit playing God. It didn’t work. Next, we decided that hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to be our Director. He is the Principal; we are His agents. He is the Father, and we are His children.

Most good ideas are simple, and this concept was the keystone of the new and triumphant arch through which we passed to freedom.

In my case, it wasn't really God. Like I said, I was too a snob. What I did was accept I was inadequate to run the show and let others do it for a while. Not that I ever stopped feeling resistance, but I was tired of the faliure.

At a meeting I went to the other day, a girl said the same thing. Putting her life in the care of God simply meant doing what her sponser told her despite thinking she knew better.

If you do this long enough, God will eventually appear all on his own, so that it is no longer any specific person or persons you are trusting.

So in lieu of God, I recommend putting one's life in the hands of people and an honest idea of health. Pleasures can wait!

Good luck Gib. May the force be with you.

Pedro I Rengel wrote:The first requirement is that we be convinced that any life run on self-will can hardly be a success. On that basis we are almost always in collision with something or somebody, even though our motives are good.

Most people try to live by self-propulsion. Each person is like an actor who wants to run the whole show; is forever trying to arrange the lights, the ballet, the scenery and the rest of the players in his own way. If his arrangements would only stay put, if only people would do as he wished, the show would be great. Everybody, including himself, would be pleased. Life would be wonderful. In trying to make these arrangements our actor may sometimes be quite virtuous. He may be kind, considerate, patient, generous; even modest and self-sacrificing. On the other hand, he may be mean, egotistical, selfish and dishonest. But, as with most humans, he is more likely to have varied traits.

What usually happens? The show doesn’t come off very well. He begins to think life doesn’t treat him right. He decides to exert himself more. He becomes, on the next occasion, still more demanding or gracious, as the case may be. Still the play does not suit him. Admitting he may be somewhat at fault, he is sure that other people are more to blame. He becomes angry, indignant, self-pitying. What is his basic trouble? Is he not really a self-seeker even when trying to be kind? Is he not a victim of the delusion that he can wrest satisfaction and happiness out of this world if he only manages well? Is it not evident to all the rest of the players that these are the things he wants? And do not his actions make each of them wish to retaliate, snatching all they can get out of the show? Is he not, even in his best moments, a producer of confusion rather than harmony?

Our actor is self-centered—ego-centric, as people like to call it nowadays. He is like the retired business man who lolls in the Florida sunshine in the winter complaining of the sad state of the nation; the minister who sighs over the sins of the twentieth century; politicians and reformers who are sure all would be Utopia if the rest of the world would only behave; the outlaw safe cracker who thinks society has wronged him; and the alcoholic who has lost all and is locked up. Whatever our protestations, are not most of us concerned with ourselves, our resentments, or our self-pity? Selfishness—self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles. Driven by a hundred forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking, and self-pity, we step on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate. Sometimes they hurt us, seemingly without provocation, but we invariably find that at some time in the past we have made decisions based on self which later placed us in a position to be hurt.

So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn’t think so. Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kills us! God makes that possible. And there often seems no way of entirely getting rid of self without His aid. Many of us had moral and philosophical convictions galore, but we could not live up to them even though we would have liked to. Neither could we reduce our self-centeredness much by wishing or trying on our own power. We had to have God’s help.

This is the how and why of it. First of all, we had to quit playing God. It didn’t work. Next, we decided that hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to be our Director. He is the Principal; we are His agents. He is the Father, and we are His children.

Most good ideas are simple, and this concept was the keystone of the new and triumphant arch through which we passed to freedom.

ehhh.... this reads like the Communist Manifesto.

Pedro I Rengel

That's why we always take a minute of silence at the beginning of AA meetings

.

What is the strongest word or feeling which comes to you within this minute or minutes?

To contemplate our luck

Luck?! Luck is when you are almost out of gas and yet you still, by the skin of your teeth, manage to get where you are going.

Luck has very little to do with it. Determination, hard work, endurance, courage, self-honesty, humility, self-caring, ad continuum got you from way back there to where you are now. There is a really exquisite, profound song which reminds me of what people go through or need to go through as they are *in the fire* so to speak.

LET ME FALL

Let me fall
Let me climb
There's a moment when fear
And dream must collide

Someone I am
Is waiting for courage
The one I want
The one I will become
Will catch me

So let me fall
If I must fall
I won't heed your warnings
I won't hear them

Let me fall
If I fall
Though the phoenix
May or may not rise

I will dance so freely
Holding on to no one
You can hold me only
If you too will fall
Away from all these useless fears
And shame


Someone I am
Is waiting for my courage
The one I want
The one I will become
Will catch me

So let me fall
If I must fall
I won't heed your warning
I won't hear

Let me fall
If I fall
There's no reason
To miss this one chance
This perfect moment
Just let me fall



Positive images of the future are a powerful and magnetic force... They draw us on and energize us, give us courage and will to take on important initiatives. Negative images of the future also have a magnetism. They pull the spirit downward in the path of despair.

William James

Arc- you've not been an addict, neither have I -
I see now how fundamentally it changes the universe.

If one has to admit to having no power before one is healed, that leaves a gigantic confusion about the truth, which is that one does have power, is power.
I really dislike and distrust AA and rehab philosophy, it is a religious surrender to the world of cowards, and the misguided belief that these cowards will become the bedrock of ones own self-worth.

It is the opposite to Heideggers place-giving philosophy, which grounds a human in his power; what rehab does is uproot the person from his power, so that he no longer has the power to "destroy" (or improve) himself, to grow.

I know an older guy who went to rehab, you can always see when he shifts into his "Im John, Im an alcoholic" mindset - he used to be a wild politician and a lawyer, now he is happy to take care of a demented cat and sit in his garden. Since he was "rehabilitated", he has never trusted himself with anything worth mentioning again, including following through logical arguments to their end. His IQ used to be 180 or so, an absolutely brilliant man full of passion for all sorts of beautiful things and people. But the rehab priests got to him when he was most vulnerable and indoctrinated him into their will-less world.

I hope Pezer is too strong to take this path. But if not, I thank him for what he has accomplished as the autarkic will I got to know him as, and which purely for my own enjoyment I will continue to honour. It has been a privilege.

"The group" will alway only represents the collective weakness. Opposed stands the Clan, or the pack.

The reason Im saying this is I want there tone no confusion about where I stand and have been standing with respect to this perspective on the group of addicts being the saviour of each of these addicts as transposed onto broader societal principles.

What helps the addict in rehab is only one thing, namely the lack of access to drugs. The rest is all literally just talk, and unnecessary destruction of intellectual properties, and other completely mindless fuckuppery. The problem is that rehab never really addresses the true addiction,whci as Pezersays is cigarettes. The most lethal drug of all is left accessible - god knows why. So addiction as a principle is never addressed, one is just made to get used not having other drugs. The best rehab would be continuous immersion in wholesome physical duress, many cold baths, much climbing and wrestling, and complete abstinence from any stimulating consummations.

In this way all treats of life become renewed, and one can selectively build up ones own world of pleasures, and harddrugs will not be immediately the most attractive thing to go for.

Health breeds health.

Ice baths, rope climbing, sleeping naked, etc.

The Group of Fated Addicts is the opposite to an ontological approach to life. The Fated Addict however is often himself an ontic primacy. So here too a balance, give and take, but in the sense of be given and be taken. The addict finds himself a given, a phenomenon that he can not control. So he is taken by others, who do have control. And The Group is then a form of being taken indefinitely, suspended above the existence of individual beings, above the joys an sorrows of gifts and limits. Outside of the game.

I get all this as a method of intervention in a crisis. But it is not philosophy, or it is the EU of philosophies - born of fear and dearth, and perpetuating these in a less dangerous context.

I can not condone rehab-philosophy. It is important for me, given the history I have with drug addicts, that there is no doubt about this.

Ice baths, rope climbing, sleeping naked, etc.

I've heard that they even prohibit sex in rehab- the one thing thats a sure relief for most neurotic compulsions.
So they allow cigarettes, prohibit sex, and expect health?

Gruesome errors.

Ice baths, rope climbing, purely physical sex, sleeping naked - the idea is to bring down neuroses, stupid little loops in the brain. You can only that by bringing the world closer to the skin.

gib,

Man, you must be the queen of reading too much into things. I've seen her twice so far.

I would not say the *queen* but I am aware of my propensity of sometimes reading too much into things. That may have to do with not having enough information in a certain moment in time.

I may be wrong but generally there is transference that goes on between therapist and patient. You are not unique in this regard. Give it time.

You should know I have way more goals than just staying sober. Is it really that inconceivable to you that a man could have more goals than just staying sober and relies on a therapist to help him see those goals through? <-- Automatically that's attachment???

No, that in itself is not attachment. The transference process is not necessarily a negative thing though unless it gets too out of control and most therapists can become aware of when it does.

As for your initial question, I would ask you: Just what is your most important goal? Is it to get sober and to stay sober? Aside from that, a therapist can help you attain your goals and also help you to realize if those goals are valid.

But ultimately, is your main goal to get clean?????

How can one person help you to achieve so many of your other goals?

Let me get this straight. I'm not joining AA, and in your mind that means my therapist is my only means of achieving my goals?

Insofar as AA goes, join or do not join. I have come to realize that it is not for everyone BUT at the same time, it is a good thing to reflect on how honest you are being about WHY you do not want to join. But I will go no further about AA.

I wonder if I might be wrong in figuring that in focusing on that one important goal all the others could eventually fall into place and you could succeed at them.

Possibly... but I'm not counting on that.

I was not speaking of something magical here, gib, and I did use the word *eventually*. There is a lot of hard work going from A to Z. It is a process and sometimes working on the *hardest problem[s]* can eventually give way to life opening up in other veins for us.

I think for astral projection, that for sure isn't going to just fall into my lap without at least adding meditation practices to my toolkit. Tons of people exist who have never touch a drop of alcohol or snorted any kind of drug and haven't magically been swept up by an AP experience (if anything, it's the other way around).

I still do not see the attraction towards AP and though I may not necessarily be correct here, my intuition tells me that trying to achieve what you call AP is really no more than wanting to achieve that *high*. I think that addicts need to *ground* themselves not want to soar into the ether.

(And my therapist specifically is trained in meditative exercises, hypnosis, and altered states of consciousness... which is why I chose her.)

What do YOU mean by altered stares of consciousness?

What I said was that after July 1 I'd *probably* not post here anymore (because I usually like to post when I'm on caffeine), but I never said I didn't want anyone posting in this thread. I wouldn't say something like that... ever... except maybe to you.

I went back and investigated that. I was wrong about that.
Now gib, no reason to get *catty* here.

I might visit an AA meeting once or twice in the future, but proly not to go on a regular basis. It ain't my style. It'd be interesting to see what it's like, to hear their stories, to lead them.

There is a lot of truth, gib, which we supposedly say in jest or according to one's sense of humor. We like to camouflage that truth.

So you think I will lead them one day?! WOW!!! And I thought you had no faith in me![/quote]

No, gib. My meaning was that if you went to AA or a meeting you would or might WANT to lead them. We all have our diversionary tactics, unconscious though they may at times be. But I might suggest that the students be the students and let the teachers (those who have gone through the fire and know) actually be the teachers.

You are relentless, Arc.

Yes, I can be but even a hurricane at some point sees the beauty of calming down and realizes that enough is enough.

If I went to AA on a casual basis... just once in a while... you would never be satisfied

.

You are free to choose or not to choose.

I am going to go out on a limb here and allow you to shoot me down You love it.

Yes I do ~ so much so that if there is such a thing as reincarnation which I doubt, I might plan to become a fighter pilot. The fact that someone HAS been shot down at least means that they have been UP.

No one believes me when I say I can go to the bar and not have the urge to drink. It's like I've got supernatural powers or something. The bartenders there (guys and girls) know that I don't drink, and I doubt even if I had the urge to drink and I caved one day, asking for a drink, that they wouldn't at least ask me: "Are you sure?"

Are you able to *be* with your loneliness and alone less with only your self?
I wonder just what you would do if you had such a day that you could not rise above the temptation to drink. Would you land up in the bar drinking or perhaps go somewhere else to drink?

It is not up to them to ask you *are you sure*. It is up to you to take care of yourself.
Perhaps you are not ready for the suffering and sacrifices that might be there in getting sober. Only you can answer that for yourself. Maybe meditate on that.

I go out because I don't want to give up all the other pleasures of life, the pleasures I used to enjoy while getting drunk. My intention really is to walk that fine line between the unhealthy pleasures in life and the healthy pleasures. I'm not giving up a single once of the latter. It beats being cooped up at home. I get bored. I bring my work to the bar (yes, I'm that nerdy!). I setup my laptop right at the bar and do work while drinking a virgin Caesar and an appetizer. There's just something more stimulating about being in a public place and getting to chat a bit with the bartenders (the cute ones especially). I'm reeeally not worried about risking my sobriety. You have to be me to understand. I'm really not at risk. If I were you, I wouldn't waste brain cells trying to comprehend it. Better off not believing me.

Perhaps you have not really totally told yourself that you are an alcoholic yet. I do not know gib. You seem to be sitting on the fence here but it is your life ~ and do not forget your life is also a part of your childrens' life. Your explanations sound more like excuses to me.

If I have offended you here at all, I apologize. If you are looking for velvety gloves, you are not ready yet.

Anyway, I wish you well.

Arcturus Descending wrote:As for your initial question, I would ask you: Just what is your most important goal? Is it to get sober and to stay sober? Aside from that, a therapist can help you attain your goals and also help you to realize if those goals are valid.

But ultimately, is your main goal to get clean?????

No, that's already done (I know, I know, you think it won't last). My main goal now is to be... drum roll please... AWESOME!!!

Arcturus Descending wrote:Insofar as AA goes, join or do not join. I have come to realize that it is not for everyone BUT at the same time, it is a good thing to reflect on how honest you are being about WHY you do not want to join. But I will go no further about AA.

That's a relief. And I agree. Honest reflection is a healthy thing (why you seem to assume I have not done that is a bit strange... expecting preconceived results, perhaps?)

And always, always, always remember Arc: there's a difference between what I choose to do in my life and what I say I'll do on these forums. I like to play games.

Arcturus Descending wrote:

I wonder if I might be wrong in figuring that in focusing on that one important goal all the others could eventually fall into place and you could succeed at them.

Possibly... but I'm not counting on that.

I was not speaking of something magical here, gib, and I did use the word *eventually*. There is a lot of hard work going from A to Z. It is a process and sometimes working on the *hardest problem[s]* can eventually give way to life opening up in other veins for us.

And I said possibly... meaning that I'm open to that suggestion... but why would I act as if it was definite? I'm not gonna count on something that I'm uncertain about. Neither should you. I think it's prudent to prepare for the worst and hope for the best, don't you?

Arcturus Descending wrote:

I think for astral projection, that for sure isn't going to just fall into my lap without at least adding meditation practices to my toolkit. Tons of people exist who have never touch a drop of alcohol or snorted any kind of drug and haven't magically been swept up by an AP experience (if anything, it's the other way around).

I still do not see the attraction towards AP and though I may not necessarily be correct here, my intuition tells me that trying to achieve what you call AP is really no more than wanting to achieve that *high*. <-- Of course! I think that addicts need to *ground* themselves not want to soar into the ether.

What you think addicts should do means nothing to me. Have you ever suggested to a drug addict that he or she find healthy substitutes to the drugs? Most people are quite supportive of this approach and often advise it. You're the only person I've met to shit on it. I don't see anything wrong with getting high, just the methods used to get high. Alcohol and drugs tend to have unhealthy side effects and drag one's life down into the gutter when it spins out of control. If one were able to get into a high state of consciousness through meditation or yoga, would you still be shitting on them?

I'd be curious to know what you'd say to someone who used drugs to gain confidence and self-esteem? If they tried to find alternate ways of doing this--say seeing a shrink--would you make the same remark: oh, you're just trying to get the same high.

Besides, you're overlooking the most crucial point: by finding substitutes, I give myself one more reason not to go back to the drugs. Why would I if I can get the same effect through a healthier, cleaner way? If a prostitute sucks dick for money, and then finds she can make even more money by going to college and making a career for herself, why would she ever go back? What you're advocating is that she give up trying to make money period. I mean, she could do that, but at some point, the pangs of starvation are going to drive her right back into prostitution; and just the same, your methods are the worst methods ever for a recovering drug addict... you're telling them to live a life of boredom, emptiness, and self-deprivation... at some point, they won't be able to stand it anymore and will go straight back to the drugs.

Arcturus Descending wrote:

(And my therapist specifically is trained in meditative exercises, hypnosis, and altered states of consciousness... which is why I chose her.)

What do YOU mean by altered stares of consciousness?

I don't know what an altered stare of consciousness is--maybe a different way for your consciousness to gaze upon something--but as for an altered state of consciousness, that's a very good question. There's no easy way to define it. I think we can rule out a few obvious scenarios: I'm in the living room. My consciousness is in a state of being aware that I'm in the living room. I move to the kitchen. My consciousness is now in a state of being aware of being in the kitchen. But that's not typically what people mean by a consciousness alteration. Similarly for changes in consciousness that we all go through on a daily basis--being alert vs. getting tires, being happy vs. being sad. I also don't consider body buzzes like that which alcohol or nicotine gives you or changes in energy levels like caffeine gives you alterations in consciousness states. The effects of marijuana, on the other hand, would be an altered state of consciousness, at least to me. It's like wearing a new set of visors through which to see the world. You put them on and everywhere you go, everything you do, is experienced through those visors. So you put on a blue pair, and everything looks blue. You put on a red pair, and everything looks red. It's not something that depends on the situation you're in or the thoughts you think or is affected by the various stimuli around you--it's something you carry with you unaltered wherever you go. It's the mode of your consciousness by which it process information--any kind of information, internal or external--and not something in the information, or effected by the information, itself.

Arcturus Descending wrote:

What I said was that after July 1 I'd *probably* not post here anymore (because I usually like to post when I'm on caffeine), but I never said I didn't want anyone posting in this thread. I wouldn't say something like that... ever... except maybe to you.

I went back and investigated that. I was wrong about that.
Now gib, no reason to get *catty* here.

Meow!

I might visit an AA meeting once or twice in the future, but proly not to go on a regular basis. It ain't my style. It'd be interesting to see what it's like, to hear their stories, to lead them.

^ Is that supposed to me taking the lead?

Arcturus Descending wrote:

There is a lot of truth, gib, which we supposedly say in jest or according to one's sense of humor. We like to camouflage that truth.

So you think I will lead them one day?! WOW!!! And I thought you had no faith in me!

No, gib. My meaning was that if you went to AA or a meeting you would or might WANT to lead them. We all have our diversionary tactics, unconscious though they may at times be. But I might suggest that the students be the students and let the teachers (those who have gone through the fire and know) actually be the teachers.

Ok, I've been humbled... oh no, wait, I was just joking!

Arcturus Descending wrote:

You are relentless, Arc.

Yes, I can be but even a hurricane at some point sees the beauty of calming down and realizes that enough is enough.

Wonder when you're gonna get there.

If I went to AA on a casual basis... just once in a while... you would never be satisfied

.

You are free to choose or not to choose.

Oh, really?!?! You're giving me that choice?!?!

Arcturus Descending wrote:

I am going to go out on a limb here and allow you to shoot me down You love it.

Yes I do ~ so much so that if there is such a thing as reincarnation which I doubt, I might plan to become a fighter pilot. The fact that someone HAS been shot down at least means that they have been UP.

Hey, don't let me stop you from coming back for more punishment!

Arcturus Descending wrote:

No one believes me when I say I can go to the bar and not have the urge to drink. It's like I've got supernatural powers or something. The bartenders there (guys and girls) know that I don't drink, and I doubt even if I had the urge to drink and I caved one day, asking for a drink, that they wouldn't at least ask me: "Are you sure?"

Are you able to *be* with your loneliness and alone less with only your self? <-- Am I ok with being alone? Is that what you're asking?

I live 90% of my time alone. I've always been a loner. I'm more than OK with it, it's my life. Most of the time, I prefer it that way. But a guy sometimes needs some social stimulation, and being cooped up at home by myself with my nose always in my work can sometimes grate on my sanity. So once a week, I go out to Market Mall across the street. They have a Moxie's, a Milestones, and they just added a Boston Pizza! I gotta have a life, Arc.

Arcturus Descending wrote:I wonder just what you would do if you had such a day that you could not rise above the temptation to drink. Would you land up in the bar drinking or perhaps go somewhere else to drink?

Yeah... yeah... I sometimes wonder that myself... I also wonder what I would do if I were kidnapped by aliens, given anal probes, and injected with nanobots that controlled my endocrine system... I wonder what I'd do.

Arcturus Descending wrote:It is not up to them to ask you *are you sure*. It is up to you to take care of yourself. <-- D'uh! Ya think?!
Perhaps you are not ready for the suffering and sacrifices that might be there in getting sober. Only you can answer that for yourself. Maybe meditate on that.

Yeah, everybody keeps talking about this suffering and sacrifice that you're supposed to experience once off the drugs. I have yet to experience that.

Arc, you're not under the assumption that I'm still---OMG, you are!--You think I'm still drinking?!?!--OMFG!!! After all this back and forth, of me announcing numerous times (to you!), of this whole July 1 deadline thing (which has passed, BTW... I didn't mean 2019)... that I've stopped drinking and doing drugs since July 1, haven't touched a single drop, consumed a single molecule, of any substance since then... and you're still under the assumption that I'm still drinking? Gyawd, you've got your head stuck up your ass!

Do you? Going to the bar? OMG again! You did, didn't you?! You interpreted my going to the bar as: I'm going to the bar to drink! <-- No wait...



Hold on a sec...



^ There, that's better.

Fuck girl, I even said "I setup my laptop right at the bar and do work while drinking a virgin Caesar and an appetizer." <-- You know what a virgin caesar is? You know what the word "virgin" means in that term?

And at the end of the day, I swear to God, I don't actually have the urge to drink. I know, it's amazing, in'it?! It defies all expectations, all stereotypes, it defies all logic and science. It defies anything an AA member would have to say.

^ But for that reason, it can't be true, can it Arc? You know what it's like to be an alcoholic, dontchya Arcy? Your mama was a drunk, which makes you a subject matter expert. So obviously, I'm lying. Or maybe it's unconscious. Maybe at the bar, I drink unconsciously. Yeah, that's proly it, 'cause it's certainly not projection on your part.

Arcturus Descending wrote:

I go out because I don't want to give up all the other pleasures of life, the pleasures I used to enjoy while getting drunk. My intention really is to walk that fine line between the unhealthy pleasures in life and the healthy pleasures. I'm not giving up a single once of the latter. It beats being cooped up at home. I get bored. I bring my work to the bar (yes, I'm that nerdy!). I setup my laptop right at the bar and do work while drinking a virgin Caesar and an appetizer. There's just something more stimulating about being in a public place and getting to chat a bit with the bartenders (the cute ones especially). I'm reeeally not worried about risking my sobriety. You have to be me to understand. I'm really not at risk. If I were you, I wouldn't waste brain cells trying to comprehend it. Better off not believing me.

Perhaps you have not really totally told yourself that you are an alcoholic yet.

Yet?!?! I spend 5 years building this thread in which the whole point is to confess that I'm an alcoholic, get a tattoo to symbolize my decision to quit drinking and to keep me off the drugs, go to therapy to deal with my recovery... and I have yet to admit that I'm an alcoholic??? Arc, I hate to say it, but for someone who's dug her heels as deep into this discussion as you have, you're waaay out of the loop about what's been going on.

Arcturus Descending wrote: I do not know gib. That's right. You seem to be sitting on the fence here but it is your life ~ and do not forget your life is also a part of your childrens' life. Shut up, Arc. Your explanations sound more like excuses to me.

You're making absolutely no sense. Sitting on the fence, how? What does that even mean? I mean, if you're still saying this after understanding that I don't drink, don't even have the temptation to drink--even at the bar--then how does going to the bar count as sitting on the fence? Are you suggesting that I'm unconsciously trying to make myself vulnerable--giving myself a chance to, I guess, "slip up"? If that were the case, why torture myself? Why not just cave? It's like a fat person trying to diet: they either stay away from the buffet or they cave and stuff their face. I don't know who, trying to diet, would go to the buffet to only be tempted.

Arcturus Descending wrote:If I have offended you here at all, I apologize. If you are looking for velvety gloves, you are not ready yet.

Arrogance is always offensive... no matter what the intentions.

Arcturus Descending wrote:Anyway, I wish you well.

Fuck you.

" it defies all logic and science. It defies anything an AA member would have to say."

Why don't you go to a meeting and ask a member if they ever experienced that and what they think about it?

Maybe you're not ready yet, or ever, but I will tell you that one thing all addicts have in common is that we all think we are unique. I mean all humans are unique. But you know what I mean.

Also, all self admitted addicts who haven't worked seriously on their recovery think they're not really addicts. Nothing more common than a newcomer blaming the drugs instead of the disease.

Ok I'll stop. At this point we're hurting more than helping and just annoying you. I will say the same as Arc: think about your kids and above all yourself and,

Good luck!

(I don't promise that if you make some statements here about AA in the future I won't have something to say).

I'm always here if you need help!

Pedro I Rengel wrote:" it defies all logic and science. It defies anything an AA member would have to say."

Why don't you go to a meeting and ask a member if they ever experienced that and what they think about it?

Maybe you're not ready yet, or ever, but I will tell you that one thing all addicts have in common is that we all think we are unique. I mean all humans are unique. But you know what I mean.

Also, all self admitted addicts who haven't worked seriously on their recovery think they're not really addicts. Nothing more common than a newcomer blaming the drugs instead of the disease.

Ok I'll stop. At this point we're hurting more than helping and just annoying you. I will say the same as Arc: think about your kids and above all yourself and,

Good luck!

(I don't promise that if you make some statements here about AA in the future I won't have something to say).

I'm always here if you need help!

Pedro,

I'll forgive you since my comments were directed at Arc, not you. I had no intention of offending you, but my comments about what AA members would say must have been offensive; they had no grounding. I don't know you as well as I know Arc, so I don't feel as free to dig into as I do Arc, and I feel I owe you a bit more respect. If I get to know you better, my respect for you may go up or it may go down. So far, I can still take you seriously and I'm willing to reason with you.

Now... about this:

"Also, all self admitted addicts who haven't worked seriously on their recovery think they're not really addicts. Nothing more common than a newcomer blaming the drugs instead of the disease."

You have a very surreptitious way about you. You speak to no one in particular, yet it seems implied you mean me. Am I reading too much into this?

If you are, I think you're painting a one dimensional caricature of me. I'm not sure what it means to say: a self admitted addict who think they're not really addicts. That's you putting words into my mouth. And: blaming the drugs instead of the disease. <-- Did I ever say that? And: who haven't worked seriously on their recovery... What right do you have to say how hard I've worked? You mentioned before that quitting is the easy step (contrary to what a therapist said to me: you've accomplished the hardest step), that the next step--self-examination and asking yourself the question: why do you chase the high?--is the hard one. The reason why it's so easy for me at this point is because I've done these steps in reverse. The reason this thread is 5 years old is because I spent the last 5 years examining myself and asking myself questions like these. Read it, you'll see. 5 years of self-reprogramming, of changing my priorities, of reassessing my values and what I wanted for my life... that's the hard work. The reason it's easy for me now is because I've prepared myself for it.

What annoys me more than anything else is the hubris of people thinking they know me better than I know myself despite knowing me only from a bit of text on an internet forum. <-- That is sheer arrogance right there. And the most irritating thing about it is how right they think they are despite trying to come off appearing humble, fallible, and--as Arc is fond of saying--"I could be wrong." <-- Yeah, you could all be wrong, but you don't really believe that.

For example, this here:

"Maybe you're not ready yet, or ever..."

...blatantly implies that you're ahead of me in this game, that I have much to learn from you. Have you ever thought that maybe not all alcoholics are the same? That we don't all experience quitting and recovery the same way? That maybe my approach is superior to that of others? And that's why I'm able to claim to be having no problem with this? Have you ever considered that maybe you could learn a lot from me? I'm not saying you do, or that my approach is superior, but that idea doesn't even seem to register on your radar.

What really irks me is when people feel they have to tear me down in midst of my successes... just because it doesn't fit their stereotypic expectations of how success works.

I guess I am just talking to myself wherever I recognize it. That's the reason recovering addicts are encouraged to help other addicts that are either recovering or want to recover.

I too thought I was unique and my path my own. Only banging my head against recovering addicts did I realize how inadvertantly common my attittudes and ideas about using were. It's not a dig at you. It's a reminder to me. And a line extended to you.

We all feel very creative when we seek answers to problems that affect our very survival. But what happens when other people also got creative and somehow came up with the exact same solutions?

It's annoying, I know. Believe me. But the trick is that if we all tried the same solutions and met the same results, what happens when one comes to you with a result that worked? That's all AA is. We come off as arrogant and fakely humble, but then few people can imagine the hells we dragged ourselves through.

For the record, I went to rehab TWICE!

The first time I thought wtf do these fools know. As soon as I had a little money and my own place I started using again.

It is only when my very sanity slipped as a consequence of my actions, which all revolved around getting high, and as Fixed Cross will attest, that I started listening honestly to what rehab had to say. Maybe I did go insane, buy I live in a nice house now with a nice life that I feel good, even enthusiastic about, in which I have honor and dignity and the appreciation and love of those I care about. Things I thought were downright impossible, lost forever, a part of me that had died. But it hadn't died. It had just grown too much of a taste for getting high, whether it be weed, booze, benzos, fantasies, inner mind trips of different kinds, fake affection from bartenders and the like, whatever. I had contracted a chronic and lethal disease. For which there is effective treatment.

I love my life. That's why I dare to talk to you about recovery. Otherwise fuck it, I would use, if life sucks anyway you might as well be high, no? That's what I think. Lol it's probably what makes me an addict.

But life in sobriety doesn't suck at all. To my surprise it's unmeasurbly better. That's all I'm saying.

"contrary to what a therapist said to me: you've accomplished the hardest step"

I am sure that person is a very fine therapist. But I got $100 here that says that person isn't an addict.

What's hard about it? Just don't pick up the bottle and put it to your mouth and drink.

Easy peasy.

The hard thing is, when that voice comes up one day and says "ok you're all better now, time for a drink!" And if you are an addict it will, what to say back to it. It's a clever fucking voice.

"Drinking is bad, voice"

"Duh! If you do it in excess! But you're a stable person now!"

"I have Astral Projection now."

"So? Why can't you have both?"

"Stfu voice, I don't need a drink for the lady at the bar to smile at me."

"Yeah, but wouldn't the smile taste better with a beer on you? Just one beer, obviously! You're a stable man with AP and workung with his therapist in his self esteem and life goals. You only drank too much before because you were not stable like now."

Not easy. People think it's a problem with will power. The real problem is that the only thing the will wants to do with power is get high. That's why the recovery process hurts. It requires a brutal amount of honesty.

To an addict, getting high is about 10x more important, on an instinctual level, than food or water, let alone sex or meditative techniques.

Do you not think the intellect is clever enough to protect said instinct against ones for, say, care and stability?

That's why recovery is not an intellectual process. It's about depriving the body from the drugs and reminding it of things that are actually fullfilling. How can a therapist who has never felt craving ever get to the bottom of why you drink? Even an arrogant ass like Jung gave up.

The problem with Jakob's cold baths solution is that an addict is clever and thinks of him or herseld only as a victim, so such treatment would only be percieved as torture. Same reason you spit on Arc who seems to be the only one that actually cares about you (vis a vis the therapist, how much is Arc charging you?). Of course you spit on yourself more so you don't think of it as strange or insulting.

The treatment with addicts that works is: truth, choice, and kindness. The weirdest concept for an addict is being kind to one's self.

That's where the famous hitting bottom comes from. Only when the pain of being unkind to one's self becomes unbearable does an addict consider it. Of course there are always lower bottoms, and some you simply cannot come back from.

To allow yourself weakness. Then you can actually get stronger. Nobody's fucking perfect.

Are non addicts also pathologically unkind to themselves? Maybe. But an addict is a kind of extremist. They don't give quarter to kindness. Brave souls, says I. Consequent.

Worth saving.

Pedro,

Just a couple things:

1) Compare this...

Pedro I Rengel wrote:I guess I am just talking to myself wherever I recognize it. That's the reason recovering addicts are encouraged to help other addicts that are either recovering or want to recover.

I too thought I was unique and my path my own. Only banging my head against recovering addicts did I realize how inadvertantly common my attittudes and ideas about using were. It's not a dig at you. It's a reminder to me. And a line extended to you.

We all feel very creative when we seek answers to problems that affect our very survival. But what happens when other people also got creative and somehow came up with the exact same solutions?

It's annoying, I know. Believe me. But the trick is that if we all tried the same solutions and met the same results, what happens when one comes to you with a result that worked? That's all AA is. We come off as arrogant and fakely humble, but then few people can imagine the hells we dragged ourselves through.

...

For the record, I went to rehab TWICE!

The first time I thought wtf do these fools know. As soon as I had a little money and my own place I started using again.

It is only when my very sanity slipped as a consequence of my actions, which all revolved around getting high, and as Fixed Cross will attest, that I started listening honestly to what rehab had to say. Maybe I did go insane, buy I live in a nice house now with a nice life that I feel good, even enthusiastic about, in which I have honor and dignity and the appreciation and love of those I care about. Things I thought were downright impossible, lost forever, a part of me that had died. But it hadn't died. It had just grown too much of a taste for getting high, whether it be weed, booze, benzos, fantasies, inner mind trips of different kinds, fake affection from bartenders and the like, whatever. I had contracted a chronic and lethal disease. For which there is effective treatment.

I love my life. That's why I dare to talk to you about recovery. Otherwise fuck it, I would use, if life sucks anyway you might as well be high, no? That's what I think. Lol it's probably what makes me an addict.

But life in sobriety doesn't suck at all. To my surprise it's unmeasurbly better. That's all I'm saying.

...to this:

Pedro I Rengel wrote:The problem with Jakob's cold baths solution is that an addict is clever and thinks of him or herseld only as a victim, so such treatment would only be percieved as torture. Same reason you spit on Arc who seems to be the only one that actually cares about you (vis a vis the therapist, how much is Arc charging you?). Of course you spit on yourself more so you don't think of it as strange or insulting.

The treatment with addicts that works is: truth, choice, and kindness. The weirdest concept for an addict is being kind to one's self.

...

That's where the famous hitting bottom comes from. Only when the pain of being unkind to one's self becomes unbearable does an addict consider it. Of course there are always lower bottoms, and some you simply cannot come back from.

To allow yourself weakness. Then you can actually get stronger. Nobody's fucking perfect.

Are non addicts also pathologically unkind to themselves? Maybe. But an addict is a kind of extremist. They don't give quarter to kindness. Brave souls, says I. Consequent.

I liked the first quote, not so much the second. You know why? Because in the first quote, you're talking about your experiences. You have a right to do that. It's believable. It's appreciated. Everyone appreciates when a person relates their own life experiences. You know why I didn't like the second? Because you switched gears and started talking about me... your presumptuous opinions about me, cloaked in the guise of insight and wisdom.

Here's my advice: you wanna win people over, stick to the first approach; avoid the second like the plague.

2) About this...

Pedro I Rengel wrote:What's hard about it? Just don't pick up the bottle and put it to your mouth and drink.

Easy peasy.

The hard thing is, when that voice comes up one day and says "ok you're all better now, time for a drink!" And if you are an addict it will, what to say back to it. It's a clever fucking voice.

"Drinking is bad, voice"

"Duh! If you do it in excess! But you're a stable person now!"

"I have Astral Projection now."

"So? Why can't you have both?"

"Stfu voice, I don't need a drink for the lady at the bar to smile at me."

"Yeah, but wouldn't the smile taste better with a beer on you? Just one beer, obviously! You're a stable man with AP and workung with his therapist in his self esteem and life goals. You only drank too much before because you were not stable like now."

Not easy. People think it's a problem with will power. The real problem is that the only thing the will wants to do with power is get high. That's why the recovery process hurts. It requires a brutal amount of honesty.

To an addict, getting high is about 10x more important, on an instinctual level, than food or water, let alone sex or meditative techniques.

Do you not think the intellect is clever enough to protect said instinct against ones for, say, care and stability?

That's why recovery is not an intellectual process. It's about depriving the body from the drugs and reminding it of things that are actually fullfilling. How can a therapist who has never felt craving ever get to the bottom of why you drink? Even an arrogant ass like Jung gave up.

^ Here, you're talking about something that *may* happen in the future. There's not much I can say about that. It's in the future. I don't have a crystal ball. So how can I say whether it will happen or it won't?

In that case, I'm more open to its possibility, but then I would ask: what's with all the talk about "not being ready?" Give me a break. It's only been two months. If this is something that will happen in the future, it will come when it will come... right? Does being ready imply that it would come sooner? Does ready mean ready to experience the temptation and exercise my will to resist? To fall back on others for support? If that's the case, maybe I'm better off not being ready ever. I mean, if I'm doing so well not being ready, not even having the temptation to drink at the pub, then maybe not being ready is the perfect place to be.

But if this is an inevitable part of recovery that I have yet to experience, let's cross that bridge when we get there, huh? If it starts to become difficult, maybe that will be the time to join AA. I promise, I'll be open to it. But until then, I don't see the point nor do I have the time (really, I don't).

BTW, to both you and Arc:

I'm almost done volume III of my book. Chapter 16 covers the techniques I've been using for the past 5 years to reprogram my mind and condition myself to not want the drugs. It covers that and a whole slew of what I call "mental technologies." If you'd like, I'll give you a free copy. You might not understand everything I write in there as it's built on stuff written in volumes I and II, but I think someone freshly diving into chapter 16 would get the general gist of it.

Arc, I remember once giving you volume I.

If you guys want it, let me know.

Who said I want to win people over?

Your life is your problem, not mine.