MagsJ wrote:Pedro I Rengel wrote:Drugs are not some shadow that hangs over me. They are something I am grateful for for having made me and I stay the fuck away from to protect this glorious shit I now have.
Hats off to you for ^this^ sir, for this ingenious piece of thinking.
Pedro I Rengel wrote:The first requirement is that we be convinced that any life run on self-will can hardly be a success. On that basis we are almost always in collision with something or somebody, even though our motives are good.
Most people try to live by self-propulsion. Each person is like an actor who wants to run the whole show; is forever trying to arrange the lights, the ballet, the scenery and the rest of the players in his own way. If his arrangements would only stay put, if only people would do as he wished, the show would be great. Everybody, including himself, would be pleased. Life would be wonderful. In trying to make these arrangements our actor may sometimes be quite virtuous. He may be kind, considerate, patient, generous; even modest and self-sacrificing. On the other hand, he may be mean, egotistical, selfish and dishonest. But, as with most humans, he is more likely to have varied traits.
What usually happens? The show doesn’t come off very well. He begins to think life doesn’t treat him right. He decides to exert himself more. He becomes, on the next occasion, still more demanding or gracious, as the case may be. Still the play does not suit him. Admitting he may be somewhat at fault, he is sure that other people are more to blame. He becomes angry, indignant, self-pitying. What is his basic trouble? Is he not really a self-seeker even when trying to be kind? Is he not a victim of the delusion that he can wrest satisfaction and happiness out of this world if he only manages well? Is it not evident to all the rest of the players that these are the things he wants? And do not his actions make each of them wish to retaliate, snatching all they can get out of the show? Is he not, even in his best moments, a producer of confusion rather than harmony?
Our actor is self-centered—ego-centric, as people like to call it nowadays. He is like the retired business man who lolls in the Florida sunshine in the winter complaining of the sad state of the nation; the minister who sighs over the sins of the twentieth century; politicians and reformers who are sure all would be Utopia if the rest of the world would only behave; the outlaw safe cracker who thinks society has wronged him; and the alcoholic who has lost all and is locked up. Whatever our protestations, are not most of us concerned with ourselves, our resentments, or our self-pity? Selfishness—self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles. Driven by a hundred forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking, and self-pity, we step on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate. Sometimes they hurt us, seemingly without provocation, but we invariably find that at some time in the past we have made decisions based on self which later placed us in a position to be hurt.
So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn’t think so. Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kills us! God makes that possible. And there often seems no way of entirely getting rid of self without His aid. Many of us had moral and philosophical convictions galore, but we could not live up to them even though we would have liked to. Neither could we reduce our self-centeredness much by wishing or trying on our own power. We had to have God’s help.
This is the how and why of it. First of all, we had to quit playing God. It didn’t work. Next, we decided that hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to be our Director. He is the Principal; we are His agents. He is the Father, and we are His children.
Most good ideas are simple, and this concept was the keystone of the new and triumphant arch through which we passed to freedom.
.That's why we always take a minute of silence at the beginning of AA meetings
To contemplate our luck
Ice baths, rope climbing, sleeping naked, etc.
Man, you must be the queen of reading too much into things. I've seen her twice so far.
You should know I have way more goals than just staying sober. Is it really that inconceivable to you that a man could have more goals than just staying sober and relies on a therapist to help him see those goals through? <-- Automatically that's attachment???
How can one person help you to achieve so many of your other goals?
Let me get this straight. I'm not joining AA, and in your mind that means my therapist is my only means of achieving my goals?
I wonder if I might be wrong in figuring that in focusing on that one important goal all the others could eventually fall into place and you could succeed at them.![]()
Possibly... but I'm not counting on that.
I think for astral projection, that for sure isn't going to just fall into my lap without at least adding meditation practices to my toolkit. Tons of people exist who have never touch a drop of alcohol or snorted any kind of drug and haven't magically been swept up by an AP experience (if anything, it's the other way around).
(And my therapist specifically is trained in meditative exercises, hypnosis, and altered states of consciousness... which is why I chose her.)
What I said was that after July 1 I'd *probably* not post here anymore (because I usually like to post when I'm on caffeine), but I never said I didn't want anyone posting in this thread. I wouldn't say something like that... ever... except maybe to you.
I might visit an AA meeting once or twice in the future, but proly not to go on a regular basis. It ain't my style. It'd be interesting to see what it's like, to hear their stories, to lead them.
There is a lot of truth, gib, which we supposedly say in jest or according to one's sense of humor. We like to camouflage that truth.
You are relentless, Arc.
.If I went to AA on a casual basis... just once in a while... you would never be satisfied
I am going to go out on a limb here and allow you to shoot me down You love it.
No one believes me when I say I can go to the bar and not have the urge to drink. It's like I've got supernatural powers or something. The bartenders there (guys and girls) know that I don't drink, and I doubt even if I had the urge to drink and I caved one day, asking for a drink, that they wouldn't at least ask me: "Are you sure?"
I go out because I don't want to give up all the other pleasures of life, the pleasures I used to enjoy while getting drunk. My intention really is to walk that fine line between the unhealthy pleasures in life and the healthy pleasures. I'm not giving up a single once of the latter. It beats being cooped up at home. I get bored. I bring my work to the bar (yes, I'm that nerdy!). I setup my laptop right at the bar and do work while drinking a virgin Caesar and an appetizer. There's just something more stimulating about being in a public place and getting to chat a bit with the bartenders (the cute ones especially). I'm reeeally not worried about risking my sobriety. You have to be me to understand. I'm really not at risk. If I were you, I wouldn't waste brain cells trying to comprehend it. Better off not believing me.
Arcturus Descending wrote:As for your initial question, I would ask you: Just what is your most important goal? Is it to get sober and to stay sober? Aside from that, a therapist can help you attain your goals and also help you to realize if those goals are valid.
But ultimately, is your main goal to get clean?????
Arcturus Descending wrote:Insofar as AA goes, join or do not join. I have come to realize that it is not for everyone BUT at the same time, it is a good thing to reflect on how honest you are being about WHY you do not want to join. But I will go no further about AA.
Arcturus Descending wrote:I wonder if I might be wrong in figuring that in focusing on that one important goal all the others could eventually fall into place and you could succeed at them.![]()
Possibly... but I'm not counting on that.
I was not speaking of something magical here, gib, and I did use the word *eventually*. There is a lot of hard work going from A to Z. It is a process and sometimes working on the *hardest problem[s]* can eventually give way to life opening up in other veins for us.
Arcturus Descending wrote:I think for astral projection, that for sure isn't going to just fall into my lap without at least adding meditation practices to my toolkit. Tons of people exist who have never touch a drop of alcohol or snorted any kind of drug and haven't magically been swept up by an AP experience (if anything, it's the other way around).
I still do not see the attraction towards AP and though I may not necessarily be correct here, my intuition tells me that trying to achieve what you call AP is really no more than wanting to achieve that *high*. <-- Of course!I think that addicts need to *ground* themselves not want to soar into the ether.
Arcturus Descending wrote:(And my therapist specifically is trained in meditative exercises, hypnosis, and altered states of consciousness... which is why I chose her.)
What do YOU mean by altered stares of consciousness?
Arcturus Descending wrote:What I said was that after July 1 I'd *probably* not post here anymore (because I usually like to post when I'm on caffeine), but I never said I didn't want anyone posting in this thread. I wouldn't say something like that... ever... except maybe to you.
I went back and investigated that. I was wrong about that.
Now gib, no reason to get *catty* here.
Meow!I might visit an AA meeting once or twice in the future, but proly not to go on a regular basis. It ain't my style. It'd be interesting to see what it's like, to hear their stories, to lead them.
![]()
Arcturus Descending wrote:There is a lot of truth, gib, which we supposedly say in jest or according to one's sense of humor. We like to camouflage that truth.
So you think I will lead them one day?! WOW!!! And I thought you had no faith in me!
No, gib. My meaning was that if you went to AA or a meeting you would or might WANT to lead them. We all have our diversionary tactics, unconscious though they may at times be. But I might suggest that the students be the students and let the teachers (those who have gone through the fire and know) actually be the teachers.
Arcturus Descending wrote:You are relentless, Arc.
Yes, I can be but even a hurricane at some point sees the beauty of calming down and realizes that enough is enough.
Wonder when you're gonna get there..If I went to AA on a casual basis... just once in a while... you would never be satisfied
You are free to choose or not to choose.
Arcturus Descending wrote:I am going to go out on a limb here and allow you to shoot me down You love it.
Yes I do ~ so much so that if there is such a thing as reincarnation which I doubt, I might plan to become a fighter pilot. The fact that someone HAS been shot down at least means that they have been UP.
Arcturus Descending wrote:No one believes me when I say I can go to the bar and not have the urge to drink. It's like I've got supernatural powers or something. The bartenders there (guys and girls) know that I don't drink, and I doubt even if I had the urge to drink and I caved one day, asking for a drink, that they wouldn't at least ask me: "Are you sure?"
Are you able to *be* with your loneliness and alone less with only your self? <-- Am I ok with being alone? Is that what you're asking?
Arcturus Descending wrote:I wonder just what you would do if you had such a day that you could not rise above the temptation to drink. Would you land up in the bar drinking or perhaps go somewhere else to drink?
Arcturus Descending wrote:It is not up to them to ask you *are you sure*. It is up to you to take care of yourself. <-- D'uh!Ya think?!
Perhaps you are not ready for the suffering and sacrifices that might be there in getting sober. Only you can answer that for yourself. Maybe meditate on that.
Arcturus Descending wrote:I go out because I don't want to give up all the other pleasures of life, the pleasures I used to enjoy while getting drunk. My intention really is to walk that fine line between the unhealthy pleasures in life and the healthy pleasures. I'm not giving up a single once of the latter. It beats being cooped up at home. I get bored. I bring my work to the bar (yes, I'm that nerdy!). I setup my laptop right at the bar and do work while drinking a virgin Caesar and an appetizer. There's just something more stimulating about being in a public place and getting to chat a bit with the bartenders (the cute ones especially). I'm reeeally not worried about risking my sobriety. You have to be me to understand. I'm really not at risk. If I were you, I wouldn't waste brain cells trying to comprehend it. Better off not believing me.
Perhaps you have not really totally told yourself that you are an alcoholic yet.
Arcturus Descending wrote: I do not know gib. That's right. You seem to be sitting on the fence here but it is your life ~ and do not forget your life is also a part of your childrens' life. Shut up, Arc. Your explanations sound more like excuses to me.
Arcturus Descending wrote:If I have offended you here at all, I apologize. If you are looking for velvety gloves, you are not ready yet.
Arcturus Descending wrote:Anyway, I wish you well.
Pedro I Rengel wrote:" it defies all logic and science. It defies anything an AA member would have to say."
Why don't you go to a meeting and ask a member if they ever experienced that and what they think about it?
Maybe you're not ready yet, or ever, but I will tell you that one thing all addicts have in common is that we all think we are unique. I mean all humans are unique. But you know what I mean.
Also, all self admitted addicts who haven't worked seriously on their recovery think they're not really addicts. Nothing more common than a newcomer blaming the drugs instead of the disease.
Ok I'll stop. At this point we're hurting more than helping and just annoying you. I will say the same as Arc: think about your kids and above all yourself and,
Good luck!
(I don't promise that if you make some statements here about AA in the future I won't have something to say).
I'm always here if you need help!
Pedro I Rengel wrote:I guess I am just talking to myself wherever I recognize it. That's the reason recovering addicts are encouraged to help other addicts that are either recovering or want to recover.
I too thought I was unique and my path my own. Only banging my head against recovering addicts did I realize how inadvertantly common my attittudes and ideas about using were. It's not a dig at you. It's a reminder to me. And a line extended to you.
We all feel very creative when we seek answers to problems that affect our very survival. But what happens when other people also got creative and somehow came up with the exact same solutions?
It's annoying, I know. Believe me. But the trick is that if we all tried the same solutions and met the same results, what happens when one comes to you with a result that worked? That's all AA is. We come off as arrogant and fakely humble, but then few people can imagine the hells we dragged ourselves through.
...
For the record, I went to rehab TWICE!
The first time I thought wtf do these fools know. As soon as I had a little money and my own place I started using again.
It is only when my very sanity slipped as a consequence of my actions, which all revolved around getting high, and as Fixed Cross will attest, that I started listening honestly to what rehab had to say. Maybe I did go insane, buy I live in a nice house now with a nice life that I feel good, even enthusiastic about, in which I have honor and dignity and the appreciation and love of those I care about. Things I thought were downright impossible, lost forever, a part of me that had died. But it hadn't died. It had just grown too much of a taste for getting high, whether it be weed, booze, benzos, fantasies, inner mind trips of different kinds, fake affection from bartenders and the like, whatever. I had contracted a chronic and lethal disease. For which there is effective treatment.
I love my life. That's why I dare to talk to you about recovery. Otherwise fuck it, I would use, if life sucks anyway you might as well be high, no? That's what I think. Lol it's probably what makes me an addict.
But life in sobriety doesn't suck at all. To my surprise it's unmeasurbly better. That's all I'm saying.
Pedro I Rengel wrote:The problem with Jakob's cold baths solution is that an addict is clever and thinks of him or herseld only as a victim, so such treatment would only be percieved as torture. Same reason you spit on Arc who seems to be the only one that actually cares about you (vis a vis the therapist, how much is Arc charging you?). Of course you spit on yourself more so you don't think of it as strange or insulting.
The treatment with addicts that works is: truth, choice, and kindness. The weirdest concept for an addict is being kind to one's self.
...
That's where the famous hitting bottom comes from. Only when the pain of being unkind to one's self becomes unbearable does an addict consider it. Of course there are always lower bottoms, and some you simply cannot come back from.
To allow yourself weakness. Then you can actually get stronger. Nobody's fucking perfect.
Are non addicts also pathologically unkind to themselves? Maybe. But an addict is a kind of extremist. They don't give quarter to kindness. Brave souls, says I. Consequent.
Pedro I Rengel wrote:What's hard about it? Just don't pick up the bottle and put it to your mouth and drink.
Easy peasy.
The hard thing is, when that voice comes up one day and says "ok you're all better now, time for a drink!" And if you are an addict it will, what to say back to it. It's a clever fucking voice.
"Drinking is bad, voice"
"Duh! If you do it in excess! But you're a stable person now!"
"I have Astral Projection now."
"So? Why can't you have both?"
"Stfu voice, I don't need a drink for the lady at the bar to smile at me."
"Yeah, but wouldn't the smile taste better with a beer on you? Just one beer, obviously! You're a stable man with AP and workung with his therapist in his self esteem and life goals. You only drank too much before because you were not stable like now."
Not easy. People think it's a problem with will power. The real problem is that the only thing the will wants to do with power is get high. That's why the recovery process hurts. It requires a brutal amount of honesty.
To an addict, getting high is about 10x more important, on an instinctual level, than food or water, let alone sex or meditative techniques.
Do you not think the intellect is clever enough to protect said instinct against ones for, say, care and stability?
That's why recovery is not an intellectual process. It's about depriving the body from the drugs and reminding it of things that are actually fullfilling. How can a therapist who has never felt craving ever get to the bottom of why you drink? Even an arrogant ass like Jung gave up.
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