What are you doing?

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Re: What are you doing?

Postby MagsJ » Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:12 am

origami wrote:It's for the historical interest, Mags.

Yea! ..it can stay in the historical past :lol:

origami wrote:I'm sure much of what was the great Arab and Persian orchestral pieces are lost to the sands of time.

Maybe they looked a lot like this:



That string instrument that the girl is playing with little hammers looks conspicuously like some Chinese and Japanese instruments, doesn't it?

I would hazard a guess.. that there’s a lot of shared history before we diversified out, over time.. a few millennia back, perhaps?
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: What are you doing?

Postby MagsJ » Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:16 am

origami wrote:Anyway, the Arab world was a lot larger than just Persia. They were just one little piece.

Persia had great influence.. influenced modern language etc., albeit quite badly, in the erudite sense of the matter.

The Arabian peninsula was a pivotal post for trade and commerce, between East and West.. especially before it got divided up into separate States/Nations/Countries/whatever.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: What are you doing?

Postby origami » Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:27 am

MagsJ wrote:Persia had great influence.. influenced modern language etc.


I know it's a widespread idea. But I haven't seen any serious historical reasoning for it.

Like the proto-Indo-European language. Absolutely zero evidence or historical justification. Just random guesswork from the basis of a preexisting fancy.
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Re: What are you doing?

Postby origami » Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:28 am

The Arab empire, on the other hand, is fact. Its rule is cleanly recorded. And it was far from restricted to the Arab pensinsula. They made half the world their vassals.
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Re: What are you doing?

Postby MagsJ » Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:34 am

origami wrote:The Arab empire, on the other hand, is fact. Its rule is cleanly recorded. And it was far from restricted to the Arab pensinsula. They made half the world their vassals.

Likewise, many Empires before and after them did..
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: What are you doing?

Postby MagsJ » Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:36 am

origami wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Persia had great influence.. influenced modern language etc.

I know it's a widespread idea. But I haven't seen any serious historical reasoning for it.

Like the proto-Indo-European language. Absolutely zero evidence or historical justification. Just random guesswork from the basis of a preexisting fancy.

Um! Ok.. no construction of words existed, prior to when Origami thinks they did huh?

Language is one big homogeneous global patois.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: What are you doing?

Postby origami » Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:51 am

MagsJ wrote:
origami wrote:The Arab empire, on the other hand, is fact. Its rule is cleanly recorded. And it was far from restricted to the Arab pensinsula. They made half the world their vassals.

Likewise, many Empires before and after them did..


I think only the British and Hun empires can be said to compete in terms of size. Maybe Rome if we count East and West at point of greatest expansion.

But none of them lasted the near millenium that the Arab empire lasted.

Not that the point isn't fair. But I'm talking about scale here, and what that means in terms of the genealogy of the world's culture today. The Arab empire wasn't so very long ago.

MagsJ wrote:Um! Ok.. no construction of words existed, prior to when Origami thinks they did huh?

Language is one big homogeneous global patois.


No, obviously something was there. But just because something was there doesn't mean you get to randomly conjecture a language and say that that was what was there.
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Re: What are you doing?

Postby origami » Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:52 am

History requires rigour, evidence, proof.
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Re: What are you doing?

Postby MagsJ » Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:57 am

origami wrote:History requires rigour, evidence, proof.

You don’t say..?
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: What are you doing?

Postby origami » Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:58 am

MagsJ wrote:
origami wrote:History requires rigour, evidence, proof.

You don’t say..?


'm sayin.
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Re: What are you doing?

Postby origami » Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:59 am

In the late 19th century there was a lot of people coming up with a lot of fantastical ideas, often to bolster the case for some new fangled national identity.

More of modern historical theory is just that than most people believe.
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Re: What are you doing?

Postby origami » Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:01 am

If your criteria is rigourous proof, evidence, then a shocking amount of modern linguistic theory is made up nonesense.
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Re: What are you doing?

Postby MagsJ » Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:13 am

origami wrote:
MagsJ wrote:
origami wrote:The Arab empire, on the other hand, is fact. Its rule is cleanly recorded. And it was far from restricted to the Arab pensinsula. They made half the world their vassals.

Likewise, many Empires before and after them did..

I think only the British and Hun empires can be said to compete in terms of size. Maybe Rome if we count East and West at point of greatest expansion.

But none of them lasted the near millenium that the Arab empire lasted.

Not that the point isn't fair. But I'm talking about scale here, and what that means in terms of the genealogy of the world's culture today. The Arab empire wasn't so very long ago.

Well Arabia was situated right in-between Africa Europe and Asia, so it’s only expected that those Peoples went North South East and West.. but only as far adrift as those neighbouring Nations allowed/wanted them to.

MagsJ wrote:Um! Ok.. no construction of words existed, prior to when Origami thinks they did huh?

Language is one big homogeneous global patois.

No, obviously something was there. But just because something was there doesn't mean you get to randomly conjecture a language and say that that was what was there.

Language.. the linguistic stickle-bricks and Lego, of the oratory-world.
Last edited by MagsJ on Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: What are you doing?

Postby origami » Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:16 am

MagsJ wrote:but only as far adrift as those neighbouring Nations allowed.


They went a fair bit further than that.
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Re: What are you doing?

Postby origami » Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:17 am

arabempire.jpg
arabempire.jpg (103.71 KiB) Viewed 20 times
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Re: What are you doing?

Postby origami » Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:19 am

If you count the Hun empire, which was a Muslim empire, as continuation of the Arab empire, the map more than doubles in size.
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Re: What are you doing?

Postby origami » Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:21 am

The African slave trade, for example, had been in place in the Arab empire for hundreds of years before the first Spanish galleon took Africans from Africa to America.
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Re: What are you doing?

Postby origami » Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:22 am

That map underrepresents Arab penetration into Eastern and Central Europe.

The Austrian empire was constantly at war and losing ground to their East and even North East, with the caliphates.
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Re: What are you doing?

Postby MagsJ » Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:23 am

origami wrote:
MagsJ wrote:but only as far adrift as those neighbouring Nations allowed.

They went a fair bit further than that.

Are you equating Arabic invasions, with Islamic rule?
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
User avatar
MagsJ
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Re: What are you doing?

Postby origami » Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:23 am

Lol come now.
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Re: What are you doing?

Postby origami » Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:24 am

That's like making a distinction between Christian expansionism and Europe. Islam was just the religion of the Arabs.
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Re: What are you doing?

Postby origami » Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:25 am

In fact, Shia Islam was born as a schismatic sect by Persions as a political rebellion against Arab overlordship.
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Re: What are you doing?

Postby MagsJ » Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:26 am

origami wrote:In fact, Shia Islam was born as a schismatic sect by Persions as a political rebellion against Arab overlordship.

Ahhh..
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
User avatar
MagsJ
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Re: What are you doing?

Postby origami » Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:27 am

Lol but that was well into their vassalship. And with debatable results.

Like Protestants in Europe.
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Re: What are you doing?

Postby origami » Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:35 am

When historians say the Arab empire, they mean the Muslim empire before the Mongol invasion. After the Mongol invasion, they call it the Ottoman empire.
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