Freud: Messiah

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Freud: Messiah

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:06 pm

Im considering Freud now one of the Messiahs which the Torah announced. Considering strictly the work that he did, which is to disclose to man the 99 percent of his being that he had previously attributed to the Devil. (His subconscious mind)

(which is interesting, autocorrect in concert with my subconscious erring made "his subconscious mind" into "hissing mind" - consecrating this post about Freud with a nice Freudian slip)
Last edited by Fixed Cross on Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Freud: Messiah

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:10 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:Im considering Freud now one of the Messiahs which the Torah announced. Considering strictly the work that he did, which is to disclose to man the 99 percent of his being that he had hitherto attributed to the Devil. (His subconscious mind)

(which is interesting, autocorrect in concert with my subconscious erring made "his subconscious mind" into "hissing mind")

Interesting. But is the "hissing mind'" part of our original composition? Did we evolve to house devils? Are the devils us? Do we exorcize them with religion or spirituality?
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Re: Freud: Messiah

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:02 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Interesting. But is the "hissing mind'" part of our original composition?

Good question.
Similar question as: did grammar exist before language did, i.e. did these subject-object constructs exist before it was convenient to designate them?

From another angle, the subconscious, hissing mind is simply the body, with its wisdoms and urges. In that sense yes, it was part of our original composition.

Did we evolve to house devils?

That, to be sure, we did.

Are the devils us?

Yes, the worst devils are human(s), Im sure.

Do we exorcize them with religion or spirituality?

No! God no.

edit - that was my first answer, instinct.
But in my case I have had the aid of my religion (Odin) in recognizing the devils (parasites, 'Belials', unworthy ones) in my life and mind. Exorcising them however is a radically human task.
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Re: Freud: Messiah

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:58 am

Can the combination of meds and therapy exorcize internal demons? Freud seemed to think so.
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Re: Freud: Messiah

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:38 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Can the combination of meds and therapy exorcize internal demons? Freud seemed to think so.

There are two radically different layers or aspects to Freuds approach - if not more, but two very distinct ones; the clinical and the philosophic.
He derived a good deal of his philosophic ideas from revelations occurred to him in his clinical practice, but there is no direct continuum between his philosophy and his clinical practice - and his clinical approach applied to very radical cases of human derangement, whereas his philosophic edifice refers to humanity as a whole.

The demons we are talking asbout in these different contexts are aso different.

Yes, he thought it is possible to exorcise very radical demons using therapy and meds - and I think such has been proven to be indeed the case - though it has also been proven that it may work and it may make matters worse. Clearly the combination of biological and psychological treatments is extremely powerful, when calibrated well, which is a far from certain thing.

Given tast we know so very little as yet about the true physical makeup of the deep psyche - if we do not take Chinese medicine into consideration - the clinical approach is going to be heavily experimental and successful on a basis of luck rather than consistency. It is also very easy to abuse by powerful parties.

I personally only ever take the shamanic approach to meds - and I know this approach can be dangerous as hell, literally. But in general, the combination of chemical and ideational interventions in the organic order of a being is of course going to have a powerful effect.

The demons that lurk in a human being however do not belong merely to that individual, and this is the greater consequence of Freuds philosophic, and what I call messianic approach. See this recent post on Depression.
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5#p2813196
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Re: Freud: Messiah

Postby Dan~ » Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:13 am

IMO the only way to really overcome demons is to become stronger than them somehow.
Everything else doesn't work.
Although some evil forces manifest within sick minds.
So meds do help for that kind of thing.
But I'm talking about real deal demons, feeding on humanity.
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Re: Freud: Messiah

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed May 05, 2021 10:01 pm

Ok.
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Re: Freud: Messiah

Postby MagsJ » Tue May 18, 2021 9:46 pm

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Re: Freud: Messiah

Postby Meno_ » Tue May 18, 2021 10:01 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:Im considering Freud now one of the Messiahs which the Torah announced. Considering strictly the work that he did, which is to disclose to man the 99 percent of his being that he had previously attributed to the Devil. (His subconscious mind)

(which is interesting, autocorrect in concert with my subconscious erring made "his subconscious mind" into "hissing mind" - consecrating this post about Freud with a nice Freudian slip)




I would consider Freud kind of a hissing being as well, he could not overcome, transcend the reduced phenomenal confusion which typified the evil one's being tricked in that great Faustian bargain.

Proof in pudding: Jung could treat patients lacking minimal primal association, at least he was not transfixed by them.

Oddly, neuroses clears up to a degree with the view of clear and present danger!

Most of Freud's patients consisted of middle to upper class women , whose symptoms were mitigated by the effects of WW 1. Schizophrenics were left to his partnered analyst: Jung.
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Re: Freud: Messiah

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed May 19, 2021 12:06 am

I try to avoid discussions about psychology only because it feels like a subject requiring me to start an entirely new endeavor from scratch - maybe getting a degree in it - just to make any rational sense of it (despite me being an obvious huge fan of James). So if someone would fill me in here - what does "hissing mind" really mean?

My totally uneducated guess would be that it refers to the natural hissing behavior of many animals when confronting a dangerous adversary - snakes, cats, rats, coons.... I have no idea whether that is what Dr Freud was referring to but it seems logical when he was referring to subconscious parts of the mind (typically more animalistic).

I find it strange to see anyone referring to "demons" these days and wouldn't think it appropriate if (as with many words) James had not exposed the true meaning of such more religious words that most people - including me - just took for granted as being some religious spiritual being - forbidden from modern language.

Despite all of that, I think I know something about "the Devil" - but perhaps just a reflection of my upbringing (which usually coalesced with James' word descriptions). By my understanding a devil is anti-life and a demon, serving the Devil - is any anti-uniting behavior/spirit - apartheid, segregationist, heathen, Leftist, Marxist.

It is a little hard for me to accept Dr Freud as a "messiah" just because he exposed something that others had ignored or mislabeled. Mr Trump did far more than that and in a far more significant way - as have many political leaders. All actual scientists who reveal anything to be reliable fact are a type of messiah - being anyone bringing message from the ultimate reality - "God". Even James could be called a messiah if that is the standard (once named "Reluctant Prophet").

It is well known that psychiatrists are most often used merely as tools to silence or defame social and political dissidents. They almost never actually accomplish anything other than to isolate dissidents and actual mentally sociopathic peasants (not the elites). Thinking wrongly is not allowed (very obviously being displayed by Twitter, MSM, and social media). They were called upon to defame Mr Trump and to support O'Biden.

So what reference in the Torah was there to imply a messianic Dr Freud?

Edit note to Fixed Cross - I found your posts here to be very rational.
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Re: Freud: Messiah

Postby encode_decode » Wed May 19, 2021 4:35 am

obsrvr524 wrote:I try to avoid discussions about psychology only because it feels like a subject requiring me to start an entirely new endeavor from scratch - maybe getting a degree in it - just to make any rational sense of it (despite me being an obvious huge fan of James). So if someone would fill me in here - what does "hissing mind" really mean?

I saw it as a typo caused by autocorrect. After that, it looks like the conversation took more of a creative twist arriving at something interesting, nonetheless.

Psychology has its own share of contradictory ideas and inconsistencies, so I would not be too concerned. Psychology is in a state of flux, it has to move with the times, take into account neuroscience and be prepared to change given the "bigger questions" and whatever comes out of them. Hopefully, that makes good sense to you. I hear in some countries the pay for a psychologist is pretty bad too but I guess someone has to do it, right?

James had some interesting ideas - did you get the book Mithus put together?
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Re: Freud: Messiah

Postby obsrvr524 » Wed May 19, 2021 11:17 am

encode_decode wrote:
obsrvr524 wrote:I try to avoid discussions about psychology only because it feels like a subject requiring me to start an entirely new endeavor from scratch - maybe getting a degree in it - just to make any rational sense of it (despite me being an obvious huge fan of James). So if someone would fill me in here - what does "hissing mind" really mean?

I saw it as a typo caused by autocorrect. After that, it looks like the conversation took more of a creative twist arriving at something interesting, nonetheless.

I don't know why I didn't think of that (I'm must be slipping). I guess it was supposed to be "hidden mind" - makes more sense.

In trying to google "hissing mind Freud" I found that Dr Freud ("Schlomo") had likened the mind to an iceburg - now I wonder if that is where James got the idea of likening society to an iceburg since the mind is supposed to be analytically similar to a society. James did have his own explanation for that analogy. I vaguely remember James making a comment about Dr Freud needing a good psychiatrist of his own :D (James didn't care much for psychiatrists).

Later James likened the mind in structure to the US government (I think on this board). He didn't comment much on the particulars in the US government much (to my disappointment) but he was obviously familiar with its structural intent. He did seem to have issues with the corrupt FBI, Mr GH Bush, and Mr Obama (not pleased with either Hillary or Trump as candidates). He didn't appear to be very political although got banned from a Catholic board for outing Mr Obama (one of the only boards that survived banning James - found to not be a good idea years ago - I suspect because he said that he "owed Catholicism a favor").

encode_decode wrote:Psychology has its own share of contradictory ideas and inconsistencies, so I would not be too concerned. Psychology is in a state of flux, it has to move with the times, take into account neuroscience and be prepared to change given the "bigger questions" and whatever comes out of them. Hopefully, that makes good sense to you. I hear in some countries the pay for a psychologist is pretty bad too but I guess someone has to do it, right?

I think James commented once that when he got his masters in psy it wasn't even considered a science (I would lay money on James making it one if he had pursued it).

encode_decode wrote:James had some interesting ideas - did you get the book Mithus put together?

Oh much more than that. I downloaded all of his posts from here (about 26000) but I already had 1000s from earlier - starting maybe around 2007-8 from many discussion boards (many erased shortly after banning James for speaking of forbidden subjects - like the evils of soy and socialism and 9/11 - I remember thinking - "not a good idea to ban this bloke" :lol: ) and with a little background from around 2000 and a couplke of boards I discovered he was on while also on this board. He was quite a notable character everywhere he went. I wanted to get all of his work properly categorized and databased but I don't think that is ever going to happen now (too much work without a parsing program). I found it fascinating that Mithus had a book made from his posts (must have been a fan too :D ).

James became a particular person of interest to me because of the subjects he would bring up and his method of reasoning - things that nobody ever thinks about - certainly woke me up to many ideas that I know I would never have thought about - "definition of the word 'god'" - "what 'Ahdam' really meant" - "why existence exists" - "what the word 'human' actually means' - "Constitution of Rational Harmony" - "Perception of Hope and Threat" - "Affectance Ontology" and my favorite - "MIJOT" - on and on - all things that just so easily made sense to me and no one over talks about (or damn few). And also he predicted some very significant and obscure things ("Reluctantly"). I still don't know why he didn't make more threads on some of these subjects - although I'm getting a feeling as to why. And for the longest time - I wondered who in the hell he was talking to - certainly not much the blokes on the boards he visited. But I'm getting a feeling lately that I have figured that out.
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Re: Freud: Messiah

Postby encode_decode » Fri May 21, 2021 8:54 am

Thank you for responding obsrvr524.

obsrvr524 wrote:since the mind is supposed to be analytically similar to a society.

Yes. Where would we be if this was not the case?

obsrvr524 wrote:I vaguely remember James making a comment about Dr Freud needing a good psychiatrist of his own :D (James didn't care much for psychiatrists).

Psychiatrists and psychologists are of course susceptible to the same things the rest of us are - they are people. James particularly did not care for modern psychiatrists - this is not to say that he cared much for the psychs of old either just that this is a discussion in itself. A discussion that I am not prepared to have on his behalf. Let's just say that I agree with his care associated with psychs.

obsrvr524 wrote:I think James commented once that when he got his masters in psy it wasn't even considered a science (I would lay money on James making it one if he had pursued it).

James was still able to analyze and comment on psych with a very high degree of accuracy well into his old age - perhaps this hints at something with RM:AO.

:wink:
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Re: Freud: Messiah

Postby obsrvr524 » Fri May 21, 2021 11:01 am

encode_decode wrote:James was still able to analyze and comment on psych with a very high degree of accuracy well into his old age - perhaps this hints at something with RM:AO.

:wink:

You sparked my curiosity with that. :lol:

If it is not too long of a discussion - what are you referring to?
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    • blame each for the sins of the other
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Re: Freud: Messiah

Postby Sculptor » Fri May 21, 2021 11:10 am

Fixed Cross wrote:Im considering Freud now one of the Messiahs which the Torah announced. Considering strictly the work that he did, which is to disclose to man the 99 percent of his being that he had previously attributed to the Devil. (His subconscious mind)

(which is interesting, autocorrect in concert with my subconscious erring made "his subconscious mind" into "hissing mind" - consecrating this post about Freud with a nice Freudian slip)


I think you need to see a psychiatrist.
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Re: Freud: Messiah

Postby promethean75 » Fri May 21, 2021 12:01 pm

No, psychiatrists provide superficial treatment/therapy and don't get at heart if the problem. What he needs is a French existential psychoanalyst.
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Re: Freud: Messiah

Postby encode_decode » Fri May 21, 2021 2:18 pm

Well, RM:AO is not meant to be fully removed from all other conceptual topics.

obsrvr524 wrote:You sparked my curiosity with that. :lol:

If it is not too long of a discussion - what are you referring to?

What is your level of understanding of physics? James gives a good comparative analysis in a discussion based on physics and psychology and their analogs.

To add to this, his take on a particular mental illness in a particular thread was impressive - his use of vectors in the discussion was one step away from how I explain certain general mental processes. Knowing James: I am guessing he was dumbing it down a little - not by choice but rather by necessity to get his point across - or maybe he wasn't - we only discussed certain psychological topics so I can not give you the full story in that regard.
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Re: Freud: Messiah

Postby obsrvr524 » Fri May 21, 2021 6:51 pm

encode_decode wrote:What is your level of understanding of physics? James gives a good comparative analysis in a discussion based on physics and psychology and their analogs.

I'd say that my physics understanding is perhaps medium - the basics of modern day theories - certainly not competitive with James or actual physicists. And after watching his videos (that could use more discussion) and his debate with Carleas over relativity I came to understand more of what I had been originally taught at university.

And it seems interesting that James never claimed to be a physicist yet still seemed to have a really sound understanding of it - perhaps again related to his AO (which years before he came here he refused to discuss saying that people first need an understanding of the concept of infinity - I'm not sure what changed his mind about discussing it because it doesn't seem many here can get the infinity concept straight).

encode_decode wrote:To add to this, his take on a particular mental illness in a particular thread was impressive - his use of vectors in the discussion was one step away from how I explain certain general mental processes. Knowing James: I am guessing he was dumbing it down a little - not by choice but rather by necessity to get his point across - or maybe he wasn't - we only discussed certain psychological topics so I can not give you the full story in that regard.

Ok. I think I see what you are getting at. Do you have a link reference to that discussion (would save me a lot of search time)?

I am still curious what Torah predictions could possibly relate to Dr Freud.
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    • blame each for the sins of the other
    • - until they beg you to take charge.
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Re: Freud: Messiah

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri May 21, 2021 11:42 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:Im considering Freud now one of the Messiahs which the Torah announced. Considering strictly the work that he did, which is to disclose to man the 99 percent of his being that he had previously attributed to the Devil. (His subconscious mind)

(which is interesting, autocorrect in concert with my subconscious erring made "his subconscious mind" into "hissing mind" - consecrating this post about Freud with a nice Freudian slip)


I think you need to see a psychiatrist.

I think you need to get laid.
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Re: Freud: Messiah

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri May 21, 2021 11:49 pm

obsrvr524 wrote:I try to avoid discussions about psychology only because it feels like a subject requiring me to start an entirely new endeavor from scratch - maybe
getting a degree in it - just to make any rational sense of it (despite me being an obvious huge fan of James). So if someone would fill me in here - what does "hissing mind" really mean?

My totally uneducated guess would be that it refers to the natural hissing behavior of many animals when confronting a dangerous adversary - snakes, cats, rats, coons.... I have no idea whether that is what Dr Freud was referring to but it seems logical when he was referring to subconscious parts of the mind (typically more animalistic).

I find it strange to see anyone referring to "demons" these days and wouldn't think it appropriate if (as with many words) James had not exposed the true meaning of such more religious words that most people - including me - just took for granted as being some religious spiritual being - forbidden from modern language.

Despite all of that, I think I know something about "the Devil" - but perhaps just a reflection of my upbringing (which usually coalesced with James' word descriptions). By my understanding a devil is anti-life and a demon, serving the Devil - is any anti-uniting behavior/spirit - apartheid, segregationist, heathen, Leftist, Marxist.

Apartheid was a Christian policy that suppressed the heathen natives.

It is a little hard for me to accept Dr Freud as a "messiah" just because he exposed something that others had ignored or mislabeled. Mr Trump did far more than that and in a far more significant way - as have many political leaders. All actual scientists who reveal anything to be reliable fact are a type of messiah - being anyone bringing message from the ultimate reality - "God". Even James could be called a messiah if that is the standard (once named "Reluctant Prophet").

Well, follow my original reasoning; Freud released the subconscious into the known world. Do you not think that is an earth shattering, paradigm shifting operation of healing?

It is well known that psychiatrists are most often used merely as tools to silence or defame social and political dissidents. They almost never actually accomplish anything other than to isolate dissidents and actual mentally sociopathic peasants (not the elites). Thinking wrongly is not allowed (very obviously being displayed by Twitter, MSM, and social media). They were called upon to defame Mr Trump and to support O'Biden.

Psychiatry isn't what Freud developed, he created psychoanalysis. Psychiatry already existed by then, and the psychiatric community severely distrusted his methods because he didn't rely entirely on chemicals but also on analysis.

So what reference in the Torah was there to imply a messianic Dr Freud?

Well the Torah apparently discusses several Messiahs, a healing one and a military one --
it is not entirely clear. Obviously I am being a little bit playful here - but I do think that mr Freud had a massive influence on the entire world and that this influence is in the paradigm of healing.

He can be used for very nefarious purposes as his nephew Bernays did, but that can be said for any medicine and certainly for any religions prophets words.

Edit note to Fixed Cross - I found your posts here to be very rational.

Thank you.
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Re: Freud: Messiah

Postby Ierrellus » Tue May 25, 2021 12:29 pm

Having read Modern Man in Search of a Soul, I prefer Jung over Freud.
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Re: Freud: Messiah

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon May 31, 2021 10:00 pm

But Jung is a student of Freud. Without Freud no Jung. So Freud's the man.

I like Jung too, as I do Freuds other students; Reich and Lacan.
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Re: Freud: Messiah

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:00 pm

Cannot the student surpass the teacher?
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Re: Freud: Messiah

Postby Sculptor » Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:19 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Cannot the student surpass the teacher?


Yes, in mysticism. But that is not necessarily a good thing.

Interestingly enough both Jung and Freud are well out of date in many of their observations as they are far too located in their own time.
Freud is obsessed with Victorian prurience whilst Jung was too influenced by spiritualism of his time.
On both counts they tend to look at bit odd and ideosyncratic. Disciplines that bridge the science humanities areas tend to date rather poorly. Sociology, anthropology, archaeology, history all suffer from similar fates.
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