Can dogs think phenominally?

[Ichthus77]

This is muy interesante:
https://www.koko.org/about/programs/pro ... -language/

[Sculptor]

The Russians did the work on dogs, wolfs and Foxes. After the Russians , Hungarian researchers continued and it has been shown that epiphenomenological change through decades of in breeding traits caused genetic adaptative alternations

No it showed that SELECTION is the cause of genetic changes.

For each generation of foxes the breeders would chose the nicest foxes to carry the next generation; breeding only them. And they repeated that for 50 generations, as I remember.

The conclusions is that the "desirable" traits were already present to lesser degrees in the ancestral foxes, but that being selected became more predominant in later populations.

Tragically such traits as being nice to humans in the wild would not be an advantage, and it does not take much imagination to realise that these trait would soon disappear, since lovely cuddly foxes that sought human attention would end up not being able to breed, since its hard to screw when you are a stole adoring the neck of a woman.

Partly true Sculptor, but the wild traits did only suggest desirable traits of physical appeal.

Yes because that was what was selected.
Such traits already are part of the make up of all genera that are social. Most humans have similar traits, though there are exception such as Psychopaths.
But the foxes already had some such traits in various degrees.

The study going on maybe in excess of 70 years suggests otherwise, that the traits looked for were related to those of domestication.

Social and co-operative behaviours which are altruistic which most mammals have, especially females.

How did the dogs, evolve to empathic relationships, where those types of traits related affect ivory of genetic changes to feeling states adopted as generational progression was the issue.

See above. Most mammals enjoy the safety and companionship of their fellows. It is rare that mammals are antagonistic to their own species, and there are numerous examples, where there is cross species co-operation

.

How did the irony of resemblance befit a schizophrenic Germany, that bred on high ideals could regress into instinctive behavior that erased all seemingly worthwhile effects that civilization aimed to achieve?

WTF are you talking about here?

Here relate the generic programs of recent history to parallel modes of over the top metaphysical ideals which Kant brought to attention, ?

Gibberish

[Sculptor]

Sculptor,

Google “Coren’s dog intelligence ranking”

He publishes articles regularly here, & there’s a little bio:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/co ... d-dsc-frsc

Thanks

I agree that Collies are shockingly intelligent.
Obviously it depends on the criteria of intelligence, but I've seen a collie capable to running into another room to retrieve any one of over 100 different toys by name.
They can do this better than many humans.

But you could involve emotional intelligence and the top 100 would be utterly different.

[Sculptor]

This is an important distinction into which I am not entirely prevy to feel e, basically for aforementioned reasons the undertow of instinctual affective Ty is inseparable from it’s good/evil relation, for civilization is not primarily discontent due to sexual repression, as it does also deny a socially conditioned precognitive sleight, that it’s emptiness can not distinguish.

This is the meaning of seeking pardon from higher order sources, to absolve social responsibility from personal paradox


The blank slate, is the unacknowledged denial of the

…errandus interruptus

You've gone off on one here.

[Ichthus77]

Sculptor,

Google “Coren’s dog intelligence ranking”

He publishes articles regularly here, & there’s a little bio:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/co ... d-dsc-frsc

Thanks

I agree that Collies are shockingly intelligent.
Obviously it depends on the criteria of intelligence, but I've seen a collie capable to running into another room to retrieve any one of over 100 different toys by name.
They can do this better than many humans.

But you could involve emotional intelligence and the top 100 would be utterly different.

What do you get when you cross Lassie with a pitbull?

[Ichthus77]

Sculptor, I think that Meno_ is pointing out that instinct like survival can override training when you’re dealing with a life and death situation, as happened under Hitler, when humans were treated as means and others looked the other way or condoned it…like…a dog hit by a car bites the one who tries to help it. Personality tests flew out the window, and survival behaviors were more predictable. …unless they were trained/built like a Bonhoeffer. I think this is where we forgive ourselves and each other for failing in the heat of the moment. And we learn from it and try again and do better.

[Meno_]

This is an important distinction into which I am not entirely prevy to feel e, basically for aforementioned reasons the undertow of instinctual affective Ty is inseparable from it’s good/evil relation, for civilization is not primarily discontent due to sexual repression, as it does also deny a socially conditioned precognitive sleight, that it’s emptiness can not distinguish.

This is the meaning of seeking pardon from higher order sources, to absolve social responsibility from personal paradox


The blank slate, is the unacknowledged denial of the

…errandus interruptus

You've gone off on one here.

Should be obvious re blank slated comparison/resemblance: namely that a regression occurs when arguments exceed capacity to understand. Then a flank slated regression occurs which does not discriminate between the apparent perceptions of young dogs from that of human babies, as Nietzche was wont to recognize in beyond good and evil. The barbarism of fallen idoled society is as horrific as any that can be seen in barbarically in domesticated animals with their never evolved counterparts.

[Sculptor]

Sculptor, I think that Meno_ is pointing out that instinct like survival can override training when you’re dealing with a life and death situation, as happened under Hitler, when humans were treated as means and others looked the other way or condoned it…like…a dog hit by a car bites the one who tries to help it. Personality tests flew out the window, and survival behaviors were more predictable. …unless they were trained/built like a Bonhoeffer. I think this is where we forgive ourselves and each other for failing in the heat of the moment. And we learn from it and try again and do better.

Actually training is at its best when it mobilises instinctuality. And nowhere is this more clear in the higher animals such as dogs that do not have the burden of abstract ideas.
What happened in Nazi Germany is that the abstract world of ideas was able to on the one hand completely ignore human co-operative instincts with cold hard ideology so that the massacre of millions of people was achieved with no emotion - just the movement of names from one column to another to create instructions to those whose instincts to co-operate fully with their one group and see other humans outside as "other", were not even human.
Paradoxically the same tendency to protect the group against the other is the same tendency that a bitch mobilises to protect her pups and concentration camp operators use to murder the innocent.
All too human.
It all depends. A wolf can love a man. A cat can suckle a puppy, but it takes abstract thinking for an entire nation to be united against an entire race of people.

[Sculptor]

Sculptor,

Google “Coren’s dog intelligence ranking”

He publishes articles regularly here, & there’s a little bio:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/co ... d-dsc-frsc

Thanks

I agree that Collies are shockingly intelligent.
Obviously it depends on the criteria of intelligence, but I've seen a collie capable to running into another room to retrieve any one of over 100 different toys by name.
They can do this better than many humans.

But you could involve emotional intelligence and the top 100 would be utterly different.

What do you get when you cross Lassie with a pitbull?

A dog that sleeps where it wants.

[Ichthus77]

Sculptor,

Google “Coren’s dog intelligence ranking”

He publishes articles regularly here, & there’s a little bio:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/co ... d-dsc-frsc

Thanks

I agree that Collies are shockingly intelligent.
Obviously it depends on the criteria of intelligence, but I've seen a collie capable to running into another room to retrieve any one of over 100 different toys by name.
They can do this better than many humans.

But you could involve emotional intelligence and the top 100 would be utterly different.[/quote]

What do you get when you cross Lassie with a pitbull?[/quote]

A dog that sleeps where it wants.[/quote]

…wakes up, rips off your arm, and runs for help.

My apologies to all the good pitties I’ve met.

[Ichthus77]

Sculptor, I think that Meno_ is pointing out that instinct like survival can override training when you’re dealing with a life and death situation, as happened under Hitler, when humans were treated as means and others looked the other way or condoned it…like…a dog hit by a car bites the one who tries to help it. Personality tests flew out the window, and survival behaviors were more predictable. …unless they were trained/built like a Bonhoeffer. I think this is where we forgive ourselves and each other for failing in the heat of the moment. And we learn from it and try again and do better.

Actually training is at its best when it mobilises instinctuality. And nowhere is this more clear in the higher animals such as dogs that do not have the burden of abstract ideas.
What happened in Nazi Germany is that the abstract world of ideas was able to on the one hand completely ignore human co-operative instincts with cold hard ideology so that the massacre of millions of people was achieved with no emotion - just the movement of names from one column to another to create instructions to those whose instincts to co-operate fully with their one group and see other humans outside as "other", were not even human.
Paradoxically the same tendency to protect the group against the other is the same tendency that a bitch mobilises to protect her pups and concentration camp operators use to murder the innocent.
All too human.
It all depends. A wolf can love a man. A cat can suckle a puppy, but it takes abstract thinking for an entire nation to be united against an entire race of people.

The abstract stuff (whether or not in line with the eternal) is training, too, but taps into identity-survival instinct, and in the case of Nazi brainwashing, it taps into in-group / out-group obedience/cooperation survival (like a German shepherd who dies to obey), rather than transcending into self=other *beyond* mere survival & obedience (like a Bonhoeffer).

[Sculptor]

Sculptor, I think that Meno_ is pointing out that instinct like survival can override training when you’re dealing with a life and death situation, as happened under Hitler, when humans were treated as means and others looked the other way or condoned it…like…a dog hit by a car bites the one who tries to help it. Personality tests flew out the window, and survival behaviors were more predictable. …unless they were trained/built like a Bonhoeffer. I think this is where we forgive ourselves and each other for failing in the heat of the moment. And we learn from it and try again and do better.

Actually training is at its best when it mobilises instinctuality. And nowhere is this more clear in the higher animals such as dogs that do not have the burden of abstract ideas.
What happened in Nazi Germany is that the abstract world of ideas was able to on the one hand completely ignore human co-operative instincts with cold hard ideology so that the massacre of millions of people was achieved with no emotion - just the movement of names from one column to another to create instructions to those whose instincts to co-operate fully with their one group and see other humans outside as "other", were not even human.
Paradoxically the same tendency to protect the group against the other is the same tendency that a bitch mobilises to protect her pups and concentration camp operators use to murder the innocent.
All too human.
It all depends. A wolf can love a man. A cat can suckle a puppy, but it takes abstract thinking for an entire nation to be united against an entire race of people.

The abstract stuff (whether or not in line with the eternal) is training, too, but taps into identity-survival instinct, and in the case of Nazi brainwashing, it taps into in-group / out-group obedience/cooperation survival (like a German shepherd who dies to obey), rather than transcending into self=other *beyond* mere survival & obedience (like a Bonhoeffer).

It's also about human variation.
As you will no doubt be aware, around 1% of humans have a genetic propensity to psychopathological tendencies.
Most of the time this doe not express itself as serial killers. Many just become CEOs of corporations or like Trump, achieve high office.
The Nazi propaganda machine, and the selection process within the party allowed people of emotional detachment to rise in the ranks, so that a person like Adolf Eichmann was capable of sending millions to their deaths without anger, or sadness. He was just a bureaucrat; a functionary with the job of organising the transport and accomodations.

I often wonder if it would be a good idea to try to put humans through a Artic fox like experiment so that people with aggression or excesses of emotional detachment were prevented from breeding.
The it occurs to me that it was the Nazis who thought eugenics was a great idea, but used to to delete what they considered "weakness".
Nice people tend to live and let live, and get walked on by those that do not.

[Ichthus77]

We shouldn’t diagnose folks (even the folks diagnosing folks go back & forth on how/whether to categorize/label diagnoses, etc.), and especially suspect diagnoses coming from biased sources.

A diagnosis is also not something to pigeonhole a person with as if they can’t adapt & overcome.

It may also have nothing to do with genetics, and may only run in the family due to conditioning, especially if raised by folks not blind to the family history.

I like to think of all of us on a spectrum between psychopath (cold minded) and sociopath (hot hearted), aim for the goldilocks zone (treat other as self), and overcome our deficits by focusing on what we have in common that is in line with self=other, filling in each other’s weaknesses with our strengths… like a threefold cord.

[Meno_]

Just noting that I am aware of the consequences of these arguments, and will eventually respond

[Ichthus77]

please define cinsenqalency — beautifully moving as one sharing a valence? Best guess. Fractalicious.

[Meno_]

We shouldn’t diagnose folks (even the folks diagnosing folks go back & forth on how/whether to categorize/label diagnoses, etc.), and especially suspect diagnoses coming from biased sources.

A diagnosis is also not something to pigeonhole a person with as if they can’t adapt & overcome.

It may also have nothing to do with genetics, and may only run in the family due to conditioning, especially if raised by folks not blind to the family history.

I like to think of all of us on a spectrum between psychopath (cold minded) and sociopath (hot hearted), aim for the goldilocks zone (treat other as self), and overcome our deficits by focusing on what we have in common that is in line with self=other, filling in each other’s weaknesses with our strengths… like a threefold cord.

Trouble with continuums is that Goldilocks’s zones thin and thicken as the wager increases and dips, and the inductive reduction doesen’t seal the phenomenon at a projected point.?

[Ichthus77]

You can only do the best you can with the resources available to you. A lack of resources is not a character deficit. A wealth of resources can be an obstacle to character development… if you don’t think you need help, and isolate yourself from others who indirectly remind you your hoarding puts others at a disadvantage, you will have less opportunity to develop your character. Being an introvert is not the same as isolating, and neither are the same as staying home because you have no gas money. But. A shared goal between those with resources & those without can do much to move them both closer to the Goldilocks zone.

Of course I paint myself prettiest in this picture :p

[Meno_]

https://youtu.be/Ye7PIyIcCro

[Great Again]

A short excursion to a sad story:

Wolves are said to have killed a Collie bitch. Accordingly, the bitch ran after a deer during the forest walk with her owner. After the disappearance, the owner searched in vain for the animal and called. Shortly thereafter he saw three wolves running out of the forest and found the carcass of his dog there (the wolves had partially eaten his collie bitch).

[Great Again]

GLOBAL WOLF POPULATION TRENDS.jpg (84.6 KiB) Viewed 206 times

[Ichthus77]

[Meno_]

https://youtu.be/B0Y-GU3JqiQ

[Meno_]

And asking wether on basis of the afirementioned, could dogs play chess is as meaningless then asking the question if I could play anyone,…

[Ichthus77]

ok. kid.

[Meno_]

https://youtube.com/shorts/KLBHVPIjdGA?feature=share