Personality Models

The origins of the imperative, "know thyself", are lost in the sands of time, but the age-old examination of human consciousness continues here.

Re: Personality Models

Postby Gloominary » Wed Dec 02, 2020 5:40 pm

phoneutria wrote:nah it just sounds like you've never read Jung's theory of personality

it's related to whether the thinking is outwards or inwards
INTJs thinking extrovertedly means that their thinking involves the world
a perspective of the whole
as opposed to introverted thinking which does the reverse
and brings the world into the frame of the self, how the world fits into that person

Yup, a bogus and convoluted explanation, or series of illogical assertions, just as I suspected.
'The listener's dominant function is talking, but talking doesn't mean talking, it means responding in a dynamic way, the talker's dominant function is listening, but listening doesn't mean listening, it means reacting in a static way'.
Sure...
How bout instead, X = X.
Furthermore, all this sounds more like perception models, how we process information, than personality models.
You may try to infer personality from perception, or perception from personality, but fundamentally perception is what you're dealing with.
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Re: Personality Models

Postby phoneutria » Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:47 pm

why don't you just read the theory and try to understand it, dude
you sound like an idiot calling something bogus that you've never read
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Re: Personality Models

Postby Gloominary » Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:49 pm

phoneutria wrote:why don't you just read the theory and try to understand it, dude
you sound like an idiot calling something bogus that you've never read

I've already studied some of it, both online and from a book.

I think you're just blindly following it, you've never critically given it much thought.
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Re: Personality Models

Postby phoneutria » Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:55 pm

so bOgUs aNd cOnVolUtEd
like evolution theory is so stupid man
like how come there's still monkeys if we evolved from them
how about x = x
monkeys are monkeys and humans are humans alright
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Re: Personality Models

Postby Gloominary » Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:10 pm

phoneutria wrote:so bOgUs aNd cOnVolUtEd
like evolution theory is so stupid man
like how come there's still monkeys if we evolved from them
how about x = x
monkeys are monkeys and humans are humans alright

Evolutionary theory: x evolved into y over time.
MBTI: X is Y.
See the difference?

Evolutionary theory is not hotly contested in academia, MBTI is.
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Re: Personality Models

Postby phoneutria » Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:14 pm

i'm not saying it's contested
i'm saying your criticism is shit

a proper answer would have been

"it's true i really don't know what i'm talking about
and I shouldn't have barged in here sounding like a jackass
i will go read more about it and come back with intelligent criticism"

unless you actually do enjoy making a fool of yourself
in which case, by all means, continue
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Re: Personality Models

Postby Gloominary » Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:40 pm

phoneutria wrote:i'm not saying it's contested
i'm saying your criticism is shit

a proper answer would have been

"it's true i really don't know what i'm talking about
and I shouldn't have barged in here sounding like a jackass
i will go read more about it and come back with intelligent criticism"

unless you actually do enjoy making a fool of yourself
in which case, by all means, continue

But I have studied it.
If I'm wrong about something, you, the supposed expert, should be able to easily refute me by dropping some knowledge on me, so why don't you?
I think it's because you can't.
From what I've gathered, the claims they make aren't backed up by anything, it's just a series of unsubstantiated assertions, but if I'm wrong, prove it, then I will admit I need to study more and reassess my opinion of it.
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Re: Personality Models

Postby Gloominary » Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:45 pm

I don't need to study something in its entirety to form a meaningful opinion of it.
What I studied was pretty crappy, and from that I can presume the rest is probably pretty crappy too.
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Re: Personality Models

Postby Gloominary » Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:46 pm

Have you studied it in its entirety?
Prove it.
Drop some knowledge on me, prove me wrong.
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Re: Personality Models

Postby Gloominary » Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:48 pm

The fact that lots of psychologists disagree with it also proves that it's probably pretty shoddy.
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Re: Personality Models

Postby phoneutria » Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:00 pm

i'm not an expert in personality theory
but i can tell bullshit when i see it
and it's not my job to teach you
nor do i feel the need to prove anything to you
also a lot of people believe the earth is flat
that is a non argument

if anyone else wants to humor this dude
please be my guest
i got shit to do
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Re: Personality Models

Postby phoneutria » Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:03 pm

also INTJ dominant function is introverted intuition
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Re: Personality Models

Postby Gloominary » Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:23 pm

phoneutria wrote:i'm not an expert in personality theory
but i can tell bullshit when i see it
and it's not my job to teach you
nor do i feel the need to prove anything to you
also a lot of people believe the earth is flat
that is a non argument

if anyone else wants to humor this dude
please be my guest
i got shit to do

So you don't need to study something in its entirety to form a positive opinion of it and commend it, but I do need to study something in its entirety to form a negative opinion of it and criticize it?
And the opinion of psychologists is equal to the opinion of flat eathers?
So you're agnostic regarding what the shape of the earth is?
Or perhaps you spent a life time studying the shape of the earth to know the subject in its entirety before coming to the conclusion that what, it's flat, it's round?
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a 'trust the experts no matter what' sort of person, but still what they say carries weight with me, and then if I go examine it for myself and also find flaws, that further proves to me that the thing is probably deeply flawed, even tho I don't know the whole thing inside and out.
Some theories are so convoluted you can never know the whole thing in its entirety, you examine what you can, then assess as best you can, while also considering what others including the experts have to say.
Last edited by Gloominary on Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Personality Models

Postby Gloominary » Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:57 pm

phoneutria wrote:also INTJ dominant function is introverted intuition

Still, they extrovertly think more than they introvertly think, even tho they're introverts.
And they introvertly intuit more than they introvertly think because why?
Do they introvertly, intuitively or thinkingly judge?
Why not?
Do they judgingly think or intuit?
I used to be really into this thing for a year or two years ago, I visited many sites and forums, skimmed through an official book on the subject, and I never saw any explanation as to why anything.
Last edited by Gloominary on Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Personality Models

Postby Gloominary » Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:04 pm

I mean if some feel it works for them, fine, just saying why I think it's bunk.
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Re: Personality Models

Postby Mr Reasonable » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:35 am

hey i just did this and this is what i got everyone analyze it and talk about me now plz
Attachments
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You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.


Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.
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Re: Personality Models

Postby phoneutria » Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:58 pm

I'll do it for $100/h
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Re: Personality Models

Postby promethean75 » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:51 pm

That's not a bad deal, Reas. You're a pretty simple guy and she'd be done in what, five minutes tops? So you'd only pay like fifty bucks, especially if an hour wuz only like ten minutes instead of sixty but it isnt so you probably won't pay that or whatever.

Unless she has a minimum
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Re: Personality Models

Postby phoneutria » Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:19 pm

great post, prom
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Re: Personality Models

Postby promethean75 » Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:55 pm

Yup, and there's 3,653 more where that'n came from.
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Re: Personality Models

Postby Mr Reasonable » Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:08 pm

promethean75 wrote:That's not a bad deal, Reas. You're a pretty simple guy and she'd be done in what, five minutes tops? So you'd only pay like fifty bucks, especially if an hour wuz only like ten minutes instead of sixty but it isnt so you probably won't pay that or whatever.

Unless she has a minimum


im not good at math ill cashapp 8 bucks if it can get done quickly
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.


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Re: Personality Models

Postby MagsJ » Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:15 am

Gloominary wrote:I mean if some feel it works for them, fine, just saying why I think it's bunk.

Is 16personalities accurate?

That said, the MBTI (16 Personalities) Test is based on a good amount of well-researched concepts with empirical data backing it up, and is derived from Jung's theory of personality. So I'd say it is one of the more accurate and valid tests of personality.
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Re: Personality Models

Postby phoneutria » Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:39 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:I think that perceiving the relation between what you see and how you feel about it is much more difficult than finding the right words to express that relation. That's the stage most people get stuck at.

Let us recall the exact steps:

1) Observe as many paintings as possible
2) For each painting, observe how you feel about it
3) Study the the relation between what you see (paintings) and how you feel about it (your feelings)
4) Express that relation using some kind of language

Most people get stuck at step number 3.


I agree that it is difficult
but not necessarily that one is more difficult than the other
as I believe that that process of perceiving and expressing the perception
is one and the same
unless you are able to explain to yourself what that is
it just flutters in your mind like a scent
for which you have no frame of reference
and then it flutters away

and I'd add a 5th stage to that
which is to investigate why you feel what you feel
and that one is a step that can take you really deep
into introspection
and even into the subconscious
most people can't even get anywhere near that without help
as it often requires a second voice
a truthful alter ego
and not everyone is able to simulate that on their own

which is also why talking is the primary tool of psychology
once you're able to formulate something about feelings
and you have someone to be the second voice
you are more likely to be able to travel deeper in


which is why to know about human nature you often don't seek a scientist, but a poet


And that's where I disagree ): I mean, there is a sense in which I agree with you, but generally speaking, I think we're disagreeing. (Though it may actually be an issue of misunderstanding.)

That's because one is a study of what any given physical object (such as wine) is in itself (i.e. what any given physical object is independently from what anyone thinks or feels about it) and the other is a study of what wine-in-itself means to people i.e. what value it holds for people. Both are scientific endeavours, they are merely different kinds of scientific endeavour.


I am not sure that i agree with you that both are scientific endeavors
because values are deeply dependent on meanings
and that is all highly subjective to the individual
unless you are using a very liberal interpretation of what is "scientific"
it most certainly isn't exact :)
(i added bold marking in that quote)

some art comes into play to be able to translate those sensations into words


The kind of language you use is in most cases a reflection of the degree to which you understand the subject. For example, the more superficial your understanding, the more poetic your descriptions will have to be. (Though there are other reasons people might want to use poetic descriptions. One is that melody and rhythm make such descriptions more entertaining, easier and less strenuous to read. But in general, I would say, it has to do with lack of understanding.)


well, the point i am trying to make is
that scientific language in this 'case
is not as informative
as affective language
because what you are looking for is language that can
tell you something about experiencing something as a human being
and when it comes to that
physical properties of the thing become secondary
and the emotional significance of them become primary
where science calls for you to step outside of yourself
in order to be objective
understanding feelings calls for you to step back inside yourself
and feel them

Figuring out the answer to the question "Why do I like this?" is an intellectual and not an artistic endeavour -- even if the person answering the question ends up using poetic descriptions. That's not art, that's science.


while i don't think you're wrong
i think that it is more of a philosophical endeavor
meaning that it is a broader realm than strictly scientific
and also wildly speculative

In most cases, the point of art isn't to describe a portion of reality;


I think that it is
a portion of humanity, even
though not necessarily describe it
but present it in some way


and in pretty much every case, the point isn't to describe why people like what they like and dislike what they dislike. That said, that sort of knowledge can at best be a means to an end but the question is to what extent is it useful to artists.


speaking as an artist
that question was crucial to me
to go from a hobby doodler
to creating a more cohesive body of work
because I can simply answer that question
"i do this because I like it, and i like it because i like it"
and that'd keep me going
but when I try to get to the bottom of why i choose a theme
what pulls me in when I look at something
which is not at all an easy thing to do
then i can start to concentrate on that
and maybe at the end of my life
i might have spent enough time obsessing over this theme
to have created something that speaks to others
maybe an artwork that will contribute to our collective exploration of our nature
and outlast me

I have a penchant for composition, choreography, dancing and acting. I am also interested in writing and poetry but to a much lesser extent.

post it!

So I am aware of what it takes to make a work of art. And from my experience, knowing the reasons behind my preferences isn't particularly useful; in fact, trying to figure that out seems detrimental as it slows down the entire process without providing benefits of any kind. When I'm composing, or choosing the right set of moves to accompany certain piece of music, all I care about is how I feel about those choices.


I get that
and i think that the feeling is always going to be the main driving force behind artistic impetus
but a study of what feeling, which does not have to necessarily occur during your creative moment
instead have its own time, research time maybe
meditation time, or rather, concentration time

i save every image that I run across that attracts me
no matter what the subject is
into a folder that i call inspiration folder
then when I browse that folder
naturally i see a repetition of specific themes
as well as one thing that i managed to find that is common to all of them
after having done that study of what inspires me primarily
it became much easier to filter out the things that will just distract me
from the ones that will bring me focus

that is of course not something that I see working for everyone
it works for me because i am very specific with my pursuit
i'm always impressed by people who work with many mediums
and do many styles, and are always trying something new
but my stuff I suppose is an INTJ's way to do art
filtering out all that seems irrelevant or a distraction
and focusing on the conquest of the core elements of it
all i care about in terms of techne is value, anatomy, proportion, form
in terms of the feeling, the meanings, the symbols, it is more complicated than that
but i don't like to talk about that part

My goal is to make those choices that lead to the most pristine kind of feeling there is. How I make my choices as well as how I judge them is almost completely outside of my consciousness. (I suspect that MBTI practitioners would call this "introverted feeling".)


i have the impression that introverted feeling produces "heavy" art
while extroverted feeling produces "light" art
and i think that i only like introverted feeling art
the kind that hits you in the guts

(as an addendum, I've noticed personally
that my memory of a sensation is not of the taste and smell of it at all
but of what I've described it to myself


Right, so it's not a memory of a sensation itself but a memory of a verbal representation of that sensation. I suppose this means your verbal memory is stronger than your non-verbal memory. You remember words better than sensations.


well, yes
but as I said above
it seems to me like the two things are very closely connected
like when you smell something that you remember
unless you can recall the place or circumstance
which i propose amounts to creating a verbally descriptive memory of it
you're left with nothing but "this is a familiar smell"
so you might remember the sensation
but without that verbal reference it is a useless memory

thus if I immediately turn an experience into a narration
I am able to remember it much better
than if I try to conjure up the memory itself
as if i've written to myself a recipe of a memory
so that my brain can use it to recreate it
so when something is so good that I want to preserve it
i go into a frenzy of trying to quickly describe it as accurately as possible
before it vanishes
thus i am able to relive it
mind tricks i guess


I have the same problem with compositions. I have zero memory of all the pieces I've composed in my mind. On the other hand, my memory is better when it comes to improving other people's existing compositions (I guess that's because such results are tied to a specific external stimulus.)

I don't have the musical education necessary to write my compositions down on a piece of paper and I am pretty bad at playing instruments (I find it hard to learn to play them.) So unless I record myself singing, my original compositions are forever lost. (An option is to learn how to retrieve them from my long-term memory, as I believe they are stored there just difficult to retrieve, but that appears to be quite a difficult task.)


perhaps you can relate to referring to a chord as "happy" or "sad" or "tense"
these are adjectives i hear frequently associated with music
and they help me remember sounds
it might be easier to remember changes you made to someone else's composition
because when you're listening to it you have a point of reference
from which to say " here I added this other note which added tension, made it happier, etc"

anyway, this verbal element of memory
seems particularly important
when it comes to dreams, hallucinations
it seems that if you wake up from a dream
and immediately tell it to yourself
just create a quick conscious narration of what you just brought from the dream
then you will be able to remember it


(Just the other day I heard some random piece of music -- I don't know exactly where I heard it and the piece itself was not familiar to me -- that instantly gave me an idea of a melody loop that sounded so pleasant I wish I recorded it.)

On the other hand, I don't find this troubling, as I believe that ideas come and go. There are so many of them, it's no big deal.


we often take for granted that which comes easy
like the piles of scribbles on top of my dresser
that i'm sure some people would pay money for
but that i'll probably make a fire with

Let's recall that the object of study is the mathematical function that you use to judge paintings. The domain of that function is the set of all paintings and its codomain is the set of all value judgments. Paintings are neither numbers nor words -- they are physical objects -- but you can use numbers and/or words to represent paintings. You can represent paintings any way you want though I am sure we will all agree that the most desirable representation is the simplest one.


i'd say that the most desirable one
is the best cost-benefit
between simplicity and comprehensiveness
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Re: Personality Models

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:08 pm

Hmmm, now I’m a INTP. Years ago when I was unhinged got a different result.
https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=191755&p=2639628&hilit=personality+tested+mm#p2639628
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Re: Personality Models

Postby Bob » Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:02 am

WendyDarling wrote:Hmmm, now I’m a INTP. Years ago when I was unhinged got a different result.
https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=191755&p=2639628&hilit=personality+tested+mm#p2639628

In the past I have used the MBTI and the Enneagram together, which I found interesting.

I spoke to a psychologist about it, and they said they didn't use it because the people who are patients in their institutions tended to pick and choose. Both systems have their uses but should be used honestly and not to achieve a result that you feel ought to be true. In clinical psychology they might be used by professionals, but they won't tell you by what method they came to their conclusions.

There is also some issue about INFJ and INTJ, because they tend to vary according to what life is throwing at you, so it is possible to get both readings at different times. That is probably true about a number of personalities. Using the Enneagram is helpful because it shows you how you can drift, where you can improve, what personalities are toxic and which ones can help.
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