What came first...

The origins of the imperative, "know thyself", are lost in the sands of time, but the age-old examination of human consciousness continues here.

Re: What came first...

Postby Meno_ » Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:06 am

I am merely repeating that God, the consistent with the energy of the pure unreflected light, that light which can not be thought of as a transparency , because the phenominal limit that bars that Phenomenal Spirit of God, to be understood through that limit, by reason , still can overcome that boundary by exegesis where the limitless energy( love) can miraculously transcend that . through the hearts of man.

True, a God can only do that, but, a receptive fabric has to accept it. Man , through Faith, is, in that 'sense' is a co-creator, without the need to choose between God, and his apparent absence, that comes only through the insensible.


Seeing without that sensibility, but through an unbounded , Absolute conviction, is only possible by the transmission above the rational limit. .

In this way, such a belief, ceases to be reactive to an automatic reflection' since the white light can not BS conceived as a transparent mirror which excludes the receptivity, only that transperency can bring about.

Two hearts offer each other that with both reflecting truth on either side.


The crystal clear is not perceivable and as so, the white becomes merely a ground for a reflection, emanating from the middle ground of faith . That is why that appears as a limit between man and God.
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Re: What came first...

Postby Ichthus77 » Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:34 am

If I understand you correctly, may be better to say that we only sense the visible or audible or (warming?), these light and sound waves being mere metaphors for general and special revelation, but there is so much more outside what can be grasped empirically via the senses/intuition, or inferred via reason (expanding our senses beyond their reach to fill in the placeholders held by our intuitive grasp of wholeness). You call it exegesis instead of heuristics now. Correctly interpreting general and special revelation.

Worthy of repetition… if I do say so myself. Over lol.

Oh, I forgot to say Thing-in-Itself somewhere in there.

Are you down with Spinoza & panentheism? Would he say all these waves have their being in necessary Being and so do not make Being finite and are still contingent, or does he say more? Still haven’t fully studied him.
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Re: What came first...

Postby Ichthus77 » Sun Jul 03, 2022 5:23 pm

in(form)ation & Logos/Being
inbeginning
whole before began
evidence/interpretation
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Re: What came first...

Postby Ichthus77 » Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:44 pm

Are we paying attention?

over

Infants, Children, and Adolescents, 9th edition. Laura E. Berk.
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Re: What came first...

Postby Meno_ » Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:33 pm

Just found it.

"Are you down with Spinoza & panentheism? Would he say all these waves have their being in necessary Being and so do not make Being finite and are still contingent, or does he say more? Still haven’t fully studied him."



I wouldn't be all that concerned since necessity and contingency are logically tied before a level of sufficient apprehension( replacing sufficient reason) And that is not to equivocate a pantheistic indefinite bound edge( between 2 planes or reference, with it's definitive signification
)

Wait will look that up), since pantheism implies at least in some way, more of a limited limitless then an unlimited limit.

Just a hunch but Spinoza was more in Leibnetz' sphere than out of it.
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Re: What came first...

Postby Meno_ » Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:46 pm

[quote= Ischtus_"]Just found it.

"Are you down with Spinoza & panentheism? Would he say all these waves have their being in necessary Being and so do not make Being finite and are still contingent, or does he say more? Still haven’t fully studied him."



I wouldn't be all that concerned since necessity and contingency are logically tied before a level of sufficient apprehension( replacing sufficient reason) And that is not to equivocate a pantheistic indefinite bound edge( between 2 planes or reference, with it's definitive signification
)

Wait will look that up), since pantheism implies at least in some way, more of a limited limitless then an unlimited limit.

Just a hunch but Spinoza was more in Leibnetz' sphere than out of it.[/quote]





See if this 'hunch' measures up to an analysis of Spinoza's narrative on 'substane' :



"a. Spinoza’s Account of Substance
Spinoza offers a definition of substance on the very first page of the Ethics. He writes: “By substance I understand what is in itself and is conceived through itself… “ (E1d3). Spinoza follows Descartes (and the tradition) in defining substance as “in itself” or as an ultimate subject. Correspondingly, he follows the tradition in defining ‘mode’ as that which is had or borne by another; as Spinoza puts it a mode is “that which is in another…” (E1d5). For a discussion of the scholastic-Aristotelian roots of Spinoza’s definition see Carriero 1995. Spinoza also follows Descartes in thinking that i) attributes are the principle properties of substance, ii) among those attributes are thought and extension, iii) all other properties of a substance are referred through, or are ways of being, that attribute, and iv) God exists and is a substance. Here the agreement ends.

The first obvious divergence from Descartes is found at E1P5. For Descartes there are many extended substances (at least on the pluralist interpretation) and many minds. Spinoza, however, thinks this is dead wrong. At E1P5 Spinoza argues that substance is unique in its kind—there can be only one substance per attribute. This fact about substance (in combination with a number of other metaphysical theses) has far-reaching consequences for his account of substance.

It follows, Spinoza argues at E1P6, that to be a substance is to be causally isolated, on the grounds that i) there is only one substance per kind or attribute and ii) causal relations can obtain only between things of the same kind. Causal isolation does not, however, entail causal impotence. An existing substance must have a cause in some sense, but as causally isolated its cause cannot lie in anything outside itself. Spinoza concludes that substance “will be the cause of itself…it pertains to the nature of a substance to exist” (E1P7). Not only is a substance the cause of itself, but Spinoza later tells us that it is the immanent cause of everything that is in it (E1P18). Spinoza continues, in E1P8, by claiming that “every substance is necessarily infinite.” In general Spinoza argues that if there is only one substance per attribute, then substance cannot be limited since limitation is a causal notion and substances are causally isolated. Last, Spinoza makes the case that substances are indivisible. He argues in E1P12-13 that if substance were divisible, it would be divisible either into parts of the same nature or parts of a different nature. If the former, then there would be more than one substance of the same nature which is ruled out by E1P5. If the latter, then the substance could cease to exist which is ruled out by E1P7; consequently substance cannot be divided".
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Re: What came first...

Postby Meno_ » Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:48 pm

It looks as if the hunch was ok.
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Re: What came first...

Postby Ichthus77 » Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:23 pm

Do you put Spinoza closer to panentheism? The vocab you’re using is a bit abstract (for me) without examples to prime/trigger the meaning … only takes me a few to get my bearings. You are putting the cookies where people (lol just me) need wings to reach ‘em (right now) lol.
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Re: What came first...

Postby Meno_ » Sun Aug 07, 2022 3:57 pm

Paying attention but on break and not merely fast.
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Re: What came first...

Postby Meno_ » Sun Aug 07, 2022 5:51 pm

Yes and the same could be asked of retucense, or forbearance, for temporarily mixed signals as far as what came before or after, the purported 'fast'

Just avoiding embarrassment over thin-skinned emotions, mostly on my part i presume, however any possible damage control is necessary in light of the preceding. ( that one may nit necessarily follow the other, at least schematically if not temporarily.
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Re: What came first...

Postby Meno_ » Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:08 pm

The reason fir my extended break in my fast tendency to react in the case of the pantheistic debate over .spin oh za, accented by information gathered by hunches, ( where me no can gain credence by allusion to his a-priori method )- and that by now should be accepted as true.


thnks
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Re: What came first...

Postby Ichthus77 » Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:21 pm

Confession: I may have read Spinoza so long ago I barely remember what I read, or if I was too wet-behind-the-ears to correctly interpret. Hence my questions
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