"Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

The origins of the imperative, "know thyself", are lost in the sands of time, but the age-old examination of human consciousness continues here.

Re: "Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:08 pm

Thanks, Bob.
I would be interested in knowing how the pandemic is playing out in Europe, especially how it affects the mental conditions of those facing it.
I see my case manager on Monday, if the weather permits. Friday night was a minus 2F with about a foot of snow on the ground. Roads are cleared, but not all sidewalks are.
I lament that my depression makes me over concerned with myself. There is so much misery everywhere.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: "Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:19 pm

Weather here at 9AM, 1/27/22 is one degree F., a time for cabin fever. Next week we are to get weather above freezing. Maybe then this depression will ease up a bit.
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Re: "Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

Postby MagsJ » Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:36 pm

_
Have you tried vitamin D liquid drops Ier..? I started taking them a few months back, even though my levels were fine, and it perked me up, so might be worth a try.. that, and an electric blanket. :)

I’m glad that sunrise has gotten earlier.. dawn at 8am was demoralising, but now it’s currently at 07.46.. which does make a difference.

54F/12C here..
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: "Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

Postby Bob » Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:23 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Weather here at 9AM, 1/27/22 is one degree F., a time for cabin fever. Next week we are to get weather above freezing. Maybe then this depression will ease up a bit.

Hmmm, that's -17°C which is colder than it has been for some time here. But still, windy drizzle at 2°C can be pretty disturbing too. Added to that, the core renovations above us have been very loud and driven us out of the house. I agree with MagsJ, a little more sunlight does make a difference, even more so if the sun actually shines. Tomorrow should be better. Hopefully I'll have the peace and quiet to write a bit more.

I'll have to try those vitamin D liquid drops though.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
When you are out of touch with reality you will easily embrace a delusion, and equally put in doubt the most basic elements of existence. If this reminds you of the mindset of the present day materialist science and philosophy establishments, as well as of the loudest voices in the socio-political debate, we should not be particularly surprised, since they show all the signs of attending with the left hemisphere alone. I live in the hope that that may soon change: for without a change we are lost.
McGilchrist, Iain . The Matter With Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World (S.562). Perspectiva Press. Kindle-Version.
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Re: "Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

Postby Meno_ » Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:21 pm

Bob wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:The pandemic has issued in an era of teleconferences. We no longer have to see our psychiatrists or counselors face to face. Is this the beginnings of robot psychiatry? Is the same therapy available via voice without a face? We are charged as if it is.

I think that psychiatry and psychology needs people to be present to help them most. My time in the day clinic was boring to begin with, but I felt that it was a good idea to be there. After a while I felt I could leave, although I returned later for a short time, which also helped. It may be because my symptoms were somatic rather than emotional.

I think that there is a big difference in how people experience treatment according to the country you're in. What I hear from the USA makes me glad that I was in Europe when I became ill. I found that people were very considerate here, and they offered a number of helpful methods to combat my problems. It was up to me to decide what was better. Sometimes, probably because COVID hasn't helped my condition, I wish I could return to the clinic, but presently it is either full time or not. I'm not too keen on a full-time psychiatric ward. The day ward is a different thing.




Bob, I don't want to cross bounderies, but are You originally German, or did You begin to live there after immigrating there? Bob appears a very Anglo name.

I have been in Germany quite a few times, as a child and later as a teenager.

As all of you may guess, my depression has been always a conversion to anxiety, when I drink , it appears to allay the anxiety, at the cost of a erconversion to depression.

Guess that is what's underneath the 'periodic alcoholic'. Other than that , I am pretty sure, the underlying structural elephant is a reactive and not an affective disorder, primarily, but as self medication sometimes mixes things up, they do convolutedly. I was on Zoloft at one time, but read something about the painful effects of weaning off them so I quit that.

The cognitive underlying structure falls on the autistic - schizotypal continuum, and most of it comes from 'situational' effects. It took a long time to come to terms to view that as more of a gift, then it's punishing aspect, insight being one.

That 'gift' has been a particularly expensive road to pay, but not something that could have been avoided.
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Re: "Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

Postby Bob » Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:43 pm

Meno_ wrote:Bob, I don't want to cross bounderies, but are You originally German, or did You begin to live there after immigrating there? Bob appears a very Anglo name.

I have been in Germany many suite a fee times, as a child and later as a teenager.

As all of. you may gather, my depression has been always a conversion to anxiety, when I drink , it appears to allay the anxiety, at the cost of a teconversion to depression.

Guess that is what's underneath the 'periodic alcoholic'. Other than that , I am pretty sure, the underlying structural elephant is a reactive and not an affective disorder, primarily, but as self medication sometimes mixes things up, they do convoluted. I was on Zoloft at one time, but read something about the painful effects of weaning off them so I quit that.

"I am a European born in England" is what I told people for a long time, but I've been in Germany a very long time.

I have primarily somatic symptoms, which feel like anxiety although my head is free of anything of the kind. It is true that alcohol can relieve the symptoms but I am wary of the side-effects. There are times when it is excruciating, but I generally then try to sleep, which I have always been able to do. However, I am thankful that I am retired, since I believe that it was stress that caused it, and my last years at work were quite stressful. So, yes, it was probably reactionary like you said.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
When you are out of touch with reality you will easily embrace a delusion, and equally put in doubt the most basic elements of existence. If this reminds you of the mindset of the present day materialist science and philosophy establishments, as well as of the loudest voices in the socio-political debate, we should not be particularly surprised, since they show all the signs of attending with the left hemisphere alone. I live in the hope that that may soon change: for without a change we are lost.
McGilchrist, Iain . The Matter With Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World (S.562). Perspectiva Press. Kindle-Version.
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Re: "Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

Postby Meno_ » Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:27 pm

Ok I said it. Then what certainty is there between the discribed situation made by me to the opinion I based my acknolewedgement toward You?

I may be way off in my estimation.
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Re: "Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:29 pm

Although my major depression is recurrent, my present concern is with how to get my apartment ready for bedbug spraying. Third time in 5 years It is an ordeal requiring much laundering, bagging clothes and mopping of floors. I'm nearly 80, so these things are difficult---for me and my cat. He has to be removed to another apt. for several hours during the spraying, and he hates getting into the pet carrier. Then, pending is the required move this Spring to another apt. while this one is renovated. The idea of rerouting mail, phone, internet and t.v. services is overwhelming.
I apologize for the doom and gloom attitude. My mother suffered from major depression also. She died of congestive heart failure, which her wine addiction did not help. I gave up cigarettes and alcohol in the Fall of 2016. Have not touched either since them.
My cat and I live alone. My step-nephew lives in an apt. above us. He transports me to my doctor's appointments and to the stores for Rx and food. He's a part-time alcoholic, mostly beer. I have to catch him between binges. Well, I've gabbed too much. Must prepare for mopping the apt. today. Current depression is situational plus.
Pray for me..
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: "Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

Postby Bob » Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:36 pm

Meno_ wrote:Ok I said it. Then what certainty is there between the discribed situation made by me to the opinion I based my acknolewedgement toward You?

I may be way off in my estimation.

Is there anything like certainty?
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
When you are out of touch with reality you will easily embrace a delusion, and equally put in doubt the most basic elements of existence. If this reminds you of the mindset of the present day materialist science and philosophy establishments, as well as of the loudest voices in the socio-political debate, we should not be particularly surprised, since they show all the signs of attending with the left hemisphere alone. I live in the hope that that may soon change: for without a change we are lost.
McGilchrist, Iain . The Matter With Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World (S.562). Perspectiva Press. Kindle-Version.
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Re: "Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

Postby Meno_ » Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:46 pm

Bob wrote:
Meno_ wrote:Ok I said it. Then what certainty is there between the discribed situation made by me to the opinion I based my acknolewedgement toward You?

I may be way off in my estimation.

Is there anything like certainty?





Certainly there is an approximation of it within reasonable limits based on spatio-temporal progression; a guesstimate.

Psychic gifted have an uncanny gift of base such reason on subtle limits, and going out of the bounds of reason by exterpolating such signals from outside reason.
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Re: "Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:01 pm

"We look before and after/ and pine for what is not. . ."--Shelley. Our only certainty is the experience of what's happening here and now.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: "Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

Postby MagsJ » Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:42 pm

Ierrellus wrote:"We look before and after/ and pine for what is not. . ."--Shelley.

We pine and then, opine..
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: "Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

Postby Bob » Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:59 pm

We look before and after, And pine for what is not; Our sincerest laughter With some pain is fraught; Our sweetest songs are those that tell of saddest thought.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
When you are out of touch with reality you will easily embrace a delusion, and equally put in doubt the most basic elements of existence. If this reminds you of the mindset of the present day materialist science and philosophy establishments, as well as of the loudest voices in the socio-political debate, we should not be particularly surprised, since they show all the signs of attending with the left hemisphere alone. I live in the hope that that may soon change: for without a change we are lost.
McGilchrist, Iain . The Matter With Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World (S.562). Perspectiva Press. Kindle-Version.
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Re: "Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:02 pm

MagsJ wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:"We look before and after/ and pine for what is not. . ."--Shelley.

We pine and then, opine..

Good one!
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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Re: "Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:04 pm

Bob wrote:We look before and after, And pine for what is not; Our sincerest laughter With some pain is fraught; Our sweetest songs are those that tell of saddest thought.

Happy to note that there are at least two people here who know of Shelley. He was a great poet, IMHO.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
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Re: "Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

Postby MagsJ » Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:15 pm

_
To the victor, go the spoils..
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. ~MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something important at some point in time.. Huh!? ~MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a very bad DJ ~MagsJ

Examine what is said, not him who speaks ~Arab proverb

aes Sanātana Dharma Pali: the eternal way ~it should not be rigid, but inclusive of the best of all knowledge for the sake of Ṛta.. which is endless.
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Re: "Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

Postby Meno_ » Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:44 pm

MagsJ wrote:_
To the victor, go the spoils..




And the loosers? Some kind of conselation prize?

Who on earth here would not have heard of Shelly.
Even the wife, the creator of ' Frankenstein.
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Re: "Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

Postby Bob » Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:45 am

Ierrellus wrote:
Bob wrote:We look before and after, And pine for what is not; Our sincerest laughter With some pain is fraught; Our sweetest songs are those that tell of saddest thought.

Happy to note that there are at least two people here who know of Shelley. He was a great poet, IMHO.

Yes, according to Iain McGilchrist, those who appreciate poetry and the arts are prone to melancholy and depression, but I found that regaining an appreciation took me out of the difficult phase. With me it is Wordsworth, but all poetry, including German poetry, helps me gain a better feeling about life, nature, people, almost everything.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
When you are out of touch with reality you will easily embrace a delusion, and equally put in doubt the most basic elements of existence. If this reminds you of the mindset of the present day materialist science and philosophy establishments, as well as of the loudest voices in the socio-political debate, we should not be particularly surprised, since they show all the signs of attending with the left hemisphere alone. I live in the hope that that may soon change: for without a change we are lost.
McGilchrist, Iain . The Matter With Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World (S.562). Perspectiva Press. Kindle-Version.
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Re: "Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Jan 30, 2022 1:00 pm

Very fond of Wordsworth although Blake considered him a pagan in the pejorative sense.
"Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers./Little we see in Nature that is ours." Or "The child is Father to the Man." So much that is quotable.
My depression was not overwhelming about 60 years ago when I taught Wordsworth to high school students. They were so receptive! Now those days are like a dream.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
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Re: "Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

Postby Bob » Sun Jan 30, 2022 2:46 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Very fond of Wordsworth although Blake considered him a pagan in the pejorative sense.
"Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers./Little we see in Nature that is ours." Or "The child is Father to the Man." So much that is quotable.
My depression was not overwhelming about 60 years ago when I taught Wordsworth to high school students. They were so receptive! Now those days are like a dream.

The pagan aspect is in that quote you made:

“The world is too much with us; late and soon,
Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers:
Little we see in nature that is ours;
We have given our hearts away, a sordid boon!
This Sea that bares her bosom to the moon;
The Winds that will be howling at all hours
And are up-gathered now like sleeping flowers;
For this, for every thing, we are out of tune;
It moves us not—Great God! I'd rather be
A Pagan suckled in a creed outworn;
So might I, standing on this pleasant lea,
Have glimpses that would make me less forlorn;
Have sight of Proteus coming from the sea;
Or hear old Triton blow his wreathed horn.”

So, in a way Blake was right, but I have a lot of sympathy for this sentiment, thinking of the world of 1803 and the Napoleonic Crisis, with England changing unpredictably, and is possibly on the verge of a battle on their own territory with France. I think he turned to the memories of his rural upbringing and a kind of panentheism, seeing the enchantment of nature, which he brought to life in his poetry.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
When you are out of touch with reality you will easily embrace a delusion, and equally put in doubt the most basic elements of existence. If this reminds you of the mindset of the present day materialist science and philosophy establishments, as well as of the loudest voices in the socio-political debate, we should not be particularly surprised, since they show all the signs of attending with the left hemisphere alone. I live in the hope that that may soon change: for without a change we are lost.
McGilchrist, Iain . The Matter With Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World (S.562). Perspectiva Press. Kindle-Version.
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Re: "Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Jan 30, 2022 4:03 pm

I did graduate work about Blake, admired him for disturbing my fundamentalism, but thought he was wrong in his criticism of Wordsworth. I, too, respect the sentiment of "The World Is Too Much With Us ", despite realizing that "Nature is red in tooth and claw"-- (Tennyson). I have found something in nature that stirs my soul and makes the experience holy. The tiger and the wolf act from hunger and are innocent killers.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: "Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:43 pm

I didn't know you were depressed Ierrellus.

How often do you take long walks in nature?

I always suggest it because, even if it doesn't alter the depression, it will make it more beautiful.

Also, wolves and tigers both often kill without eating, just for fun, or maybe to bring a gift to a beloved.
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Re: "Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:20 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:I didn't know you were depressed Ierrellus.

How often do you take long walks in nature?

I always suggest it because, even if it doesn't alter the depression, it will make it more beautiful.

Also, wolves and tigers both often kill without eating, just for fun, or maybe to bring a gift to a beloved.


Thanks for posting. Yes, I suffer from major depression. Usually, the episodes are decades apart with mild conditions daily. It's just that now my situation seems intolerable. Meds do not alter situations.
I live in the city and do not have much opportunity to walk even here. Snow has covered the sidewalks. As for the woods, my walker would not do because of the uneven ground. I don't know of any trails nearby. I fell about a month ago and am still recovering from that.
I'm not sure animals kill for human reasons.
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Re: "Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Jan 31, 2022 2:54 pm

A botanical garden, perhaps, one with a a greenhouse? Any city in the US is bound to have a nice one somewhere. Cab ride there.

If you fell, and have access to a wheelchair, possibly a motorized one, maybe you shouldn't be too proud to use one.
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Re: "Mental" Illness: The Future of Treatment

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:11 pm

I think one problem with a pharmaceutical approach to depression is that they cannot alter ideas, which are at the bottom of a depression. It is like taking a gun away from a criminal, and saying you have now made him no longer a criminal.

There can be drugs that fully cure it for the duration of the effect, because of the massive release of nice neurotransmittors, but they have no long term effect, the cure wears off with the effect.

Walks, specially around nature (or simulated nature) stimulate thought in the healthiest possible way. If there is a way out at all, it will be through that kind of gate. Send in Dirty Harry.

And like I said, even if it also has no effect on the depression, it does make it more beautiful.
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