Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

The origins of the imperative, "know thyself", are lost in the sands of time, but the age-old examination of human consciousness continues here.

Re: Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

Postby iambiguous » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:12 pm

MagsJ wrote:_
Re. the OP.. I have experienced paranormal phenomena over the years, that made me question what reality really was..
..then I came to understand that reality is experienced differently by All, but within an objective framework of existence.

I think it’s a case of static v transient minds.. or something like that.


Okay, in regard to an "objective framework of existence", does that include for you an afterlife?'

If so, is it derived in some manner from these experiences you have had with paranormal phenomena?

If so, how so?

And in regard to the part after we die, how would you distinguish between a static and transient mind?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382
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Re: Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

Postby MagsJ » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:20 am

iambiguous wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Re. the OP.. I have experienced paranormal phenomena over the years, that made me question what reality really was..
..then I came to understand that reality is experienced differently by All, but within an objective framework of existence.

I think it’s a case of static v transient minds.. or something like that.

Okay, in regard to an "objective framework of existence", does that include for you an afterlife?'

I haven’t thought that far ahead, but having gone to Confession when of age to.. with near-no sin to disclose.. I had already made my peace way back then, and so believe that that side of things will take care of itself/that I do not have to think or worry about it.

If so, is it derived in some manner from these experiences you have had with paranormal phenomena?

If so, how so?

Although I don’t think about an afterlife, I have experienced paranormal phenomena, which would suggest to the experiencer that there is something beyond death.. it seemed to have something to do with energy and vapour, vapour.. being of the traditional ghostly-looking foggy kind.

And in regard to the part after we die, how would you distinguish between a static and transient mind?

I have no idea! Minds are thoughts, and thoughts are frequency waves, but I don’t know how that would translate upon departing.. perhaps the frequency, upon departing, is a factor to the resulting end state.

We are energy, and that energy has to go somewhere.. right.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

Postby Maia » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:56 am

+++Okay, but if their tangible evidence overwhelming commands one to believe human ghosts do in fact exist, that skepticism itself could easily be dismissed. But so far nothing. At least not "in the news". Unless you count the tabloid press.+++

I asked you to prove to me that the colour green exists, but your attempt was perfunctory. So I'll ask again, prove to me that it exists.

+++Well, if by that you mean that had you been born in a different historical and cultural and experiential context, you might have come to a completely different, even contradictory, conclusion about what it means to be a "moral person", then we're both right. But we clearly construe the "for all practical purposes" implications of that for human identity differently.

Also, the manner in which we then approach philosophy as a possible antidote to that. In other words, in becoming "wise" as to how to choose the most rational and virtuous path to be one.+++

I don't approach philosophy as an antidote to anything.

+++No, I believe that your answer like mine is rooted existentially/subjectively/problematically in dasein. And not in Gods and Goddesses and nature and ideology and deontology.

We simply understand the meaning of that from conflicting vantage points.

But only "here and now". For either one of us, new experiences "down the road" can change things.+++

You asked me specific, concrete questions about the Pagan community, and I answered them.

+++But here we can "talk about them" and that's all...or we can also provide substantive and substantial evidence that would enable others to experience what we do. Or provide proof able to establish beyond a world of words -- empirically, materially, phenomenologically -- why what we talk about is in fact demonstrably true.+++

Indeed. And I've given you some simple exercises to do, for that very purpose.
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Re: Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

Postby iambiguous » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:45 am

MagsJ wrote: Re. the OP.. I have experienced paranormal phenomena over the years, that made me question what reality really was..
..then I came to understand that reality is experienced differently by All, but within an objective framework of existence.

I think it’s a case of static v transient minds.. or something like that.

iambiguous wrote:Okay, in regard to an "objective framework of existence", does that include for you an afterlife?'


MagsJ wrote: I haven’t thought that far ahead, but having gone to Confession when of age to.. with near-no sin to disclose.. I had already made my peace way back then, and so believe that that side of things will take care of itself/that I do not have to think or worry about it.


Then your own religious faith is very, very different from the overwhelming preponderance of those believe in God. For them nothing can possibly be more important than connecting the dots between the behaviors they choose on this side of the grave, Judgement Day, and the fate of "I" on the other side.

Basically, the whole point of religion. At least historically.

Though, sure, if your own frame of mind works for you and you are at peace with whatever that fate might be then that need be as far as it goes.

There is clearly nothing much to discuss then. I simply assume that your frame of mind here is rooted existentially in dasein...and might have been very different had any number of things in your life been different. You don't feel the need to go there though. Or so it seems to me.

If so, is it derived in some manner from these experiences you have had with paranormal phenomena?

If so, how so?


MagsJ wrote: Although I don’t think about an afterlife, I have experienced paranormal phenomena, which would suggest to the experiencer that there is something beyond death.. it seemed to have something to do with energy and vapour, vapour.. being of the traditional ghostly-looking foggy kind.


As with others, I can only ask you to note any experiences you have had, have now or might have that will, perhaps, allow me to think, "yes, given that, an afterlife may be possible". It would just have to be grounded more substantively...something that goes beyond energy and vapor. Something that others can experience as well. Something that others are able to demonstrate as in fact grounded in actual empirical evidence.

But that's just me.

And in regard to the part after we die, how would you distinguish between a static and transient mind?


MagsJ wrote: I have no idea! Minds are thoughts, and thoughts are frequency waves, but I don’t know how that would translate upon departing.. perhaps the frequency, upon departing, is a factor to the resulting end state.

We are energy, and that energy has to go somewhere.. right.


Okay, if you ever reach the point where through these experiences you do have an idea...one that can be communicated to me...pass it along.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382
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Re: Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

Postby iambiguous » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:13 am

Ah, the incredible shrinking exchange again!

Okay, but if their tangible evidence overwhelming commands one to believe human ghosts do in fact exist, that skepticism itself could easily be dismissed. But so far nothing. At least not "in the news". Unless you count the tabloid press.


Maia wrote:I asked you to prove to me that the colour green exists, but your attempt was perfunctory. So I'll ask again, prove to me that it exists.


There's a technology that tells you if something you place it on is green. Does that prove it is green?

And then this part: https://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/featu ... olourful-f

Also, once again, even for the sighted, in most situations, something being green or blue or red is nowhere near on par with something being a human ghost. And proof that they exist. That would mean there is something beyond the grave.

And if ghosts, why not God? And if God, why not immortality and salvation?

Well, if by that you mean that had you been born in a different historical and cultural and experiential context, you might have come to a completely different, even contradictory, conclusion about what it means to be a "moral person", then we're both right. But we clearly construe the "for all practical purposes" implications of that for human identity differently.

Also, the manner in which we then approach philosophy as a possible antidote to that. In other words, in becoming "wise" as to how to choose the most rational and virtuous path to be one.


Maia wrote:I don't approach philosophy as an antidote to anything.


Well, unlike you, most of us don't have a Goddess and a personal relationship with nature to connect the dots here. Instead, most turn to God and religion. Others to political ideologies. But a smattering of men and women around the globe turn to philosophy. To deontology or utilitarianism or consequentialism or virtue ethics. And a really, really, really small percentage of us conclude that moral nihilism is a reasonable frame of mind.

No, I believe that your answer like mine is rooted existentially/subjectively/problematically in dasein. And not in Gods and Goddesses and nature and ideology and deontology.

We simply understand the meaning of that from conflicting vantage points.

But only "here and now". For either one of us, new experiences "down the road" can change things.


Maia wrote:You asked me specific, concrete questions about the Pagan community, and I answered them.


And I honestly noted my reaction to the answers you gave. I made the attempt to prompt you to do deeper. If only deeper as I understand it. And, again, if that's not acceptable to you, you will end the exchange, move on the others, and then down the road, a new thread where we may or may not shrink the communication gap between us.

But here we can "talk about them" and that's all...or we can also provide substantive and substantial evidence that would enable others to experience what we do. Or provide proof able to establish beyond a world of words -- empirically, materially, phenomenologically -- why what we talk about is in fact demonstrably true.[/quote

Maia wrote:Indeed. And I've given you some simple exercises to do, for that very purpose.


Here we are clearly failing to communicate. And, as of now, even attempting to explain that would probably be futile.

Oh, well...
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382
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Re: Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

Postby Maia » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:32 am

MagsJ wrote:_
Re. the OP.. I have experienced paranormal phenomena over the years, that made me question what reality really was..
..then I came to understand that reality is experienced differently by All, but within an objective framework of existence.

I think it’s a case of static v transient minds.. or something like that.


I'd be interested to hear some examples of the phenomena that you've experienced, if you're happy to share.
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Re: Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

Postby Maia » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:50 am

iambiguous wrote:Ah, the incredible shrinking exchange again!

Okay, but if their tangible evidence overwhelming commands one to believe human ghosts do in fact exist, that skepticism itself could easily be dismissed. But so far nothing. At least not "in the news". Unless you count the tabloid press.


Maia wrote:I asked you to prove to me that the colour green exists, but your attempt was perfunctory. So I'll ask again, prove to me that it exists.


There's a technology that tells you if something you place it on is green. Does that prove it is green?

And then this part: https://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/featu ... olourful-f

Also, once again, even for the sighted, in most situations, something being green or blue or red is nowhere near on par with something being a human ghost. And proof that they exist. That would mean there is something beyond the grave.

And if ghosts, why not God? And if God, why not immortality and salvation?

Well, if by that you mean that had you been born in a different historical and cultural and experiential context, you might have come to a completely different, even contradictory, conclusion about what it means to be a "moral person", then we're both right. But we clearly construe the "for all practical purposes" implications of that for human identity differently.

Also, the manner in which we then approach philosophy as a possible antidote to that. In other words, in becoming "wise" as to how to choose the most rational and virtuous path to be one.


Maia wrote:I don't approach philosophy as an antidote to anything.


Well, unlike you, most of us don't have a Goddess and a personal relationship with nature to connect the dots here. Instead, most turn to God and religion. Others to political ideologies. But a smattering of men and women around the globe turn to philosophy. To deontology or utilitarianism or consequentialism or virtue ethics. And a really, really, really small percentage of us conclude that moral nihilism is a reasonable frame of mind.

No, I believe that your answer like mine is rooted existentially/subjectively/problematically in dasein. And not in Gods and Goddesses and nature and ideology and deontology.

We simply understand the meaning of that from conflicting vantage points.

But only "here and now". For either one of us, new experiences "down the road" can change things.


Maia wrote:You asked me specific, concrete questions about the Pagan community, and I answered them.


And I honestly noted my reaction to the answers you gave. I made the attempt to prompt you to do deeper. If only deeper as I understand it. And, again, if that's not acceptable to you, you will end the exchange, move on the others, and then down the road, a new thread where we may or may not shrink the communication gap between us.

But here we can "talk about them" and that's all...or we can also provide substantive and substantial evidence that would enable others to experience what we do. Or provide proof able to establish beyond a world of words -- empirically, materially, phenomenologically -- why what we talk about is in fact demonstrably true.[/quote

Maia wrote:Indeed. And I've given you some simple exercises to do, for that very purpose.


Here we are clearly failing to communicate. And, as of now, even attempting to explain that would probably be futile.

Oh, well...


+++Ah, the incredible shrinking exchange again!+++

That's what happens if you keep asking the same questions over and over again.

+++There's a technology that tells you if something you place it on is green. Does that prove it is green?

And then this part: https://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/featu ... olourful-f

Also, once again, even for the sighted, in most situations, something being green or blue or red is nowhere near on par with something being a human ghost. And proof that they exist. That would mean there is something beyond the grave.

And if ghosts, why not God? And if God, why not immortality and salvation?+++

Go out and experience them, then.

+++Well, unlike you, most of us don't have a Goddess and a personal relationship with nature to connect the dots here. Instead, most turn to God and religion. Others to political ideologies. But a smattering of men and women around the globe turn to philosophy. To deontology or utilitarianism or consequentialism or virtue ethics. And a really, really, really small percentage of us conclude that moral nihilism is a reasonable frame of mind.+++

There's probably a good reason why only a really small percentage of people come to that conclusion.

+++And I honestly noted my reaction to the answers you gave. I made the attempt to prompt you to do deeper. If only deeper as I understand it. And, again, if that's not acceptable to you, you will end the exchange, move on the others, and then down the road, a new thread where we may or may not shrink the communication gap between us.+++

You made no attempt whatsoever to probe deeper. Instead, you kept asking the same question over and over again. Had you wished, you could have probed further by asking more detailed and specific questions about how the Pagan community, and groups within it, actually operate, and, as always, I would have been happy to answer in as much detail as necessary.

+++Here we are clearly failing to communicate. And, as of now, even attempting to explain that would probably be futile.

Oh, well...+++

You want it given to you on a plate. But that's not going to happen, I'm afraid.
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Re: Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

Postby MagsJ » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:39 pm

Maia wrote:
MagsJ wrote:_
Re. the OP.. I have experienced paranormal phenomena over the years, that made me question what reality really was..
..then I came to understand that reality is experienced differently by All, but within an objective framework of existence.

I think it’s a case of static v transient minds.. or something like that.


I'd be interested to hear some examples of the phenomena that you've experienced, if you're happy to share.

By DM, if that’s ok..
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

Postby Maia » Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:47 pm

MagsJ wrote:
Maia wrote:
MagsJ wrote:_
Re. the OP.. I have experienced paranormal phenomena over the years, that made me question what reality really was..
..then I came to understand that reality is experienced differently by All, but within an objective framework of existence.

I think it’s a case of static v transient minds.. or something like that.


I'd be interested to hear some examples of the phenomena that you've experienced, if you're happy to share.

By DM, if that’s ok..


Yes of course, if you prefer.
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Re: Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

Postby MagsJ » Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:34 pm

iambiguous wrote:
MagsJ wrote: Re. the OP.. I have experienced paranormal phenomena over the years, that made me question what reality really was..
..then I came to understand that reality is experienced differently by All, but within an objective framework of existence.

I think it’s a case of static v transient minds.. or something like that.

iambiguous wrote:Okay, in regard to an "objective framework of existence", does that include for you an afterlife?'

MagsJ wrote: I haven’t thought that far ahead, but having gone to Confession when of age to.. with near-no sin to disclose.. I had already made my peace way back then, and so believe that that side of things will take care of itself/that I do not have to think or worry about it.

Then your own religious faith is very, very different from the overwhelming preponderance of those believe in God. For them nothing can possibly be more important than connecting the dots between the behaviors they choose on this side of the grave, Judgement Day, and the fate of "I" on the other side.

Basically, the whole point of religion. At least historically.

Though, sure, if your own frame of mind works for you and you are at peace with whatever that fate might be then that need be as far as it goes.

There is clearly nothing much to discuss then. I simply assume that your frame of mind here is rooted existentially in dasein...and might have been very different had any number of things in your life been different. You don't feel the need to go there though. Or so it seems to me.

That was me 'going there' :-s

Religion, for me, is about living an optimal wise life.. I wasn’t force-fed religious dogma, but grew up within the framework of the belief-systems that I was born into, those being.. (Western) Roman Catholicism and ancient Dharmic local custom.

iambiguous wrote:
iambiguous wrote:If so, is it derived in some manner from these experiences you have had with paranormal phenomena?

If so, how so?

MagsJ wrote: Although I don’t think about an afterlife, I have experienced paranormal phenomena, which would suggest to the experiencer that there is something beyond death.. it seemed to have something to do with energy and vapour, vapour.. being of the traditional ghostly-looking foggy kind.

As with others, I can only ask you to note any experiences you have had, have now or might have that will, perhaps, allow me to think, "yes, given that, an afterlife may be possible". It would just have to be grounded more substantively...something that goes beyond energy and vapor. Something that others can experience as well. Something that others are able to demonstrate as in fact grounded in actual empirical evidence.

But that's just me.

When we depart, we go back to whence we came, to the elements.. the scientific method?

If you have not experienced the presence of those, after they have departed, then you cannot verify that an afterlife exists.. so to you, it does not.

Are you concerned about those who have lost their lives in a war and that they may have an ever-after? Is there not enough solace in vapour and energy? ..it gave me solace, once.

iambiguous wrote:
iambiguous wrote:And in regard to the part after we die, how would you distinguish between a static and transient mind?

MagsJ wrote: I have no idea! Minds are thoughts, and thoughts are frequency waves, but I don’t know how that would translate upon departing.. perhaps the frequency, upon departing, is a factor to the resulting end state.

We are energy, and that energy has to go somewhere.. right.

Okay, if you ever reach the point where through these experiences you do have an idea...one that can be communicated to me...pass it along.

Is there anyone close to you, that has experienced phenomena, that they have told you about.. and not just from some randoms on the internet? ; )
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

Postby iambiguous » Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:55 pm

Ah, the incredible shrinking exchange again!


Maia wrote: That's what happens if you keep asking the same questions over and over again.


Or, from my end:

And I honestly noted my reaction to the answers you gave. I made the attempt to prompt you to go deeper. If only deeper as I understand it.


That in regard to...

1] Pagans all on their own individual path with nature coming up with their own individual convictions as a "moral person"...and then interacting with others in a Pagan community in which somehow these conflicting convictions must co-exist
2] the part where you intertwine your moral convictions derived from the evolution of nature at your birth and the part I embed in dasein
3] how you reconcile acknowledging that had your life been very different you might well be be here ridiculing Pagans and embracing moral nihilism with being a "moral person"
4] how you insist that you could never come down into the hole with me even while acknowledging that new experiences, relationships, information, knowledge and ideas might result in your changing your mind about what you believe now

There's a technology that tells you if something you place it on is green. Does that prove it is green?

And then this part: https://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/featu ... olourful-f

Also, once again, even for the sighted, in most situations, something being green or blue or red is nowhere near on par with something being a human ghost. And proof that they exist. That would mean there is something beyond the grave.

And if ghosts, why not God? And if God, why not immortality and salvation?


Maia wrote: Go out and experience them, then.


Exactly my point. Your question about me proving the color green exist. My response to that...noting a number of points. Then you ignoring those points and telling me to go out and experience...what? That technology? The points noted in the article linked? The gap between the color green and ghosts?

Maia wrote: I don't approach philosophy as an antidote to anything.


Well, unlike you, most of us don't have a Goddess and a personal relationship with nature to connect the dots here. Instead, most turn to God and religion. Others to political ideologies. But a smattering of men and women around the globe turn to philosophy. To deontology or utilitarianism or consequentialism or virtue ethics. And a really, really, really small percentage of us conclude that moral nihilism is a reasonable frame of mind.


Maia wrote: There's probably a good reason why only a really small percentage of people come to that conclusion.


Again, from your end an adequate answer. But no where near what I had hoped it might prompt in you from my end in regard to how people connect the dots between "I" and their own moral convictions. Exploring more in depth the idea of an "antidote" as [perhaps] a manifestation of what I call the "psychology of objectivism". And my attempt to explore how "for all practical purposes" Paganism might be construed by some as an objectivist font/One True Path for becoming a "moral person".

And I honestly noted my reaction to the answers you gave. I made the attempt to prompt you to do deeper. If only deeper as I understand it. And, again, if that's not acceptable to you, you will end the exchange, move on the others, and then down the road, a new thread where we may or may not shrink the communication gap between us.


Maia wrote: You made no attempt whatsoever to probe deeper. Instead, you kept asking the same question over and over again. Had you wished, you could have probed further by asking more detailed and specific questions about how the Pagan community, and groups within it, actually operate, and, as always, I would have been happy to answer in as much detail as necessary.


We will just have to agree to disagree about this then. Perhaps when I probe Pagan morality on my morality thread, I will become better informed about it. But, given your answers, I only become all that more confused.

Though, sure, that may be because of my own inadequacies here. I never leave that part out. But all I can do is to react as genuinely to the things people post here as I do. And maybe close the gaps between us with new answers.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382
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Re: Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

Postby Maia » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:13 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Ah, the incredible shrinking exchange again!


Maia wrote: That's what happens if you keep asking the same questions over and over again.


Or, from my end:

And I honestly noted my reaction to the answers you gave. I made the attempt to prompt you to go deeper. If only deeper as I understand it.


That in regard to...

1] Pagans all on their own individual path with nature coming up with their own individual convictions as a "moral person"...and then interacting with others in a Pagan community in which somehow these conflicting convictions must co-exist
2] the part where you intertwine your moral convictions derived from the evolution of nature at your birth and the part I embed in dasein
3] how you reconcile acknowledging that had your life been very different you might well be be here ridiculing Pagans and embracing moral nihilism with being a "moral person"
4] how you insist that you could never come down into the hole with me even while acknowledging that new experiences, relationships, information, knowledge and ideas might result in your changing your mind about what you believe now

There's a technology that tells you if something you place it on is green. Does that prove it is green?

And then this part: https://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/featu ... olourful-f

Also, once again, even for the sighted, in most situations, something being green or blue or red is nowhere near on par with something being a human ghost. And proof that they exist. That would mean there is something beyond the grave.

And if ghosts, why not God? And if God, why not immortality and salvation?


Maia wrote: Go out and experience them, then.


Exactly my point. Your question about me proving the color green exist. My response to that...noting a number of points. Then you ignoring those points and telling me to go out and experience...what? That technology? The points noted in the article linked? The gap between the color green and ghosts?

Maia wrote: I don't approach philosophy as an antidote to anything.


Well, unlike you, most of us don't have a Goddess and a personal relationship with nature to connect the dots here. Instead, most turn to God and religion. Others to political ideologies. But a smattering of men and women around the globe turn to philosophy. To deontology or utilitarianism or consequentialism or virtue ethics. And a really, really, really small percentage of us conclude that moral nihilism is a reasonable frame of mind.


Maia wrote: There's probably a good reason why only a really small percentage of people come to that conclusion.


Again, from your end an adequate answer. But no where near what I had hoped it might prompt in you from my end in regard to how people connect the dots between "I" and their own moral convictions. Exploring more in depth the idea of an "antidote" as [perhaps] a manifestation of what I call the "psychology of objectivism". And my attempt to explore how "for all practical purposes" Paganism might be construed by some as an objectivist font/One True Path for becoming a "moral person".

And I honestly noted my reaction to the answers you gave. I made the attempt to prompt you to do deeper. If only deeper as I understand it. And, again, if that's not acceptable to you, you will end the exchange, move on the others, and then down the road, a new thread where we may or may not shrink the communication gap between us.


Maia wrote: You made no attempt whatsoever to probe deeper. Instead, you kept asking the same question over and over again. Had you wished, you could have probed further by asking more detailed and specific questions about how the Pagan community, and groups within it, actually operate, and, as always, I would have been happy to answer in as much detail as necessary.


We will just have to agree to disagree about this then. Perhaps when I probe Pagan morality on my morality thread, I will become better informed about it. But, given your answers, I only become all that more confused.

Though, sure, that may be because of my own inadequacies here. I never leave that part out. But all I can do is to react as genuinely to the things people post here as I do. And maybe close the gaps between us with new answers.


+++That in regard to...

1] Pagans all on their own individual path with nature coming up with their own individual convictions as a "moral person"...and then interacting with others in a Pagan community in which somehow these conflicting convictions must co-exist
2] the part where you intertwine your moral convictions derived from the evolution of nature at your birth and the part I embed in dasein
3] how you reconcile acknowledging that had your life been very different you might well be be here ridiculing Pagans and embracing moral nihilism with being a "moral person"
4] how you insist that you could never come down into the hole with me even while acknowledging that new experiences, relationships, information, knowledge and ideas might result in your changing your mind about what you believe now+++

I'm sorry but there are no actual questions there, just a repetition of what you always say. If you want to ask me something, something specific that you haven't asked before, then do so.

+++Exactly my point. Your question about me proving the color green exist. My response to that...noting a number of points. Then you ignoring those points and telling me to go out and experience...what? That technology? The points noted in the article linked? The gap between the color green and ghosts?+++

Ghosts.

+++Again, from your end an adequate answer. But no where near what I had hoped it might prompt in you from my end in regard to how people connect the dots between "I" and their own moral convictions. Exploring more in depth the idea of an "antidote" as [perhaps] a manifestation of what I call the "psychology of objectivism". And my attempt to explore how "for all practical purposes" Paganism might be construed by some as an objectivist font/One True Path for becoming a "moral person".+++

If you have an actual question, that you haven't asked before, I'll try and answer it. All you seem to do is just say the same things, over and over again, without actually asking anything.

+++We will just have to agree to disagree about this then. Perhaps when I probe Pagan morality on my morality thread, I will become better informed about it. But, given your answers, I only become all that more confused.

Though, sure, that may be because of my own inadequacies here. I never leave that part out. But all I can do is to react as genuinely to the things people post here as I do. And maybe close the gaps between us with new answers.+++

I seriously doubt that you'll become better informed about Pagan morality, or indeed anything, because you only ever ask the same questions, and never take notice of the answers, anyway.
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Re: Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

Postby iambiguous » Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:37 pm

MagsJ wrote: I haven’t thought that far ahead, but having gone to Confession when of age to.. with near-no sin to disclose.. I had already made my peace way back then, and so believe that that side of things will take care of itself/that I do not have to think or worry about it.


Then your own religious faith is very, very different from the overwhelming preponderance of those believe in God. For them nothing can possibly be more important than connecting the dots between the behaviors they choose on this side of the grave, Judgement Day, and the fate of "I" on the other side.

Basically, the whole point of religion. At least historically.

Though, sure, if your own frame of mind works for you and you are at peace with whatever that fate might be then that need be as far as it goes.

There is clearly nothing much to discuss then. I simply assume that your frame of mind here is rooted existentially in dasein...and might have been very different had any number of things in your life been different. You don't feel the need to go there though. Or so it seems to me.


MagsJ wrote: That was me 'going there' :-s


Okay, fair enough. We think about it differently then. I'm more inclined to probe the beliefs of those who do approach it in terms of "morality here and now/immortality [and salvation] there and then". And the extent that is rooted subjectively in dasein.

MagsJ wrote: Although I don’t think about an afterlife, I have experienced paranormal phenomena, which would suggest to the experiencer that there is something beyond death.. it seemed to have something to do with energy and vapour, vapour.. being of the traditional ghostly-looking foggy kind.


As with others, I can only ask you to note any experiences you have had, have now or might have that will, perhaps, allow me to think, "yes, given that, an afterlife may be possible". It would just have to be grounded more substantively...something that goes beyond energy and vapor. Something that others can experience as well. Something that others are able to demonstrate as in fact grounded in actual empirical evidence.

But that's just me.


MagsJ wrote: When we depart, we go back to whence we came, to the elements.. the scientific method?


On the other hand, what does science itself know about death and dying...other than what, through the scientific method, it can conclude about it. We die, our body decomposes...dust to dust. And then some speculate it's back to "star stuff". But the soul? Nope, nothing from science yet in regard to pinning that down.

MagsJ wrote: If you have not experienced the presence of those, after they have departed, then you cannot verify that an afterlife exists.. so to you, it does not.


That's about it. We can place a wager on one of all the different Gods out there. And, for many, they can think themselves into believing in an afterlife that includes immortality and salvation. But nobody seems able to actually demonstrate that what they believe is in fact actually the case. For me then it revolves more around God and religion being a psychological defense mechanism. We don't want to die [at least for those of us who actually don't] and we need to believe something that convinces us we won't die. It's the belief itself that counts first and foremost.

MagsJ wrote: Are you concerned about those who have lost their lives in a war and that they may have an ever-after? Is there not enough solace in vapour and energy? ..it gave me solace, once.


Again, the "vapor and energy" part is something that is beyond my grasping in regard to my own experiences with those who have died.

And, no, I have never come across anyone I was close to who experienced any phenomena in the vicinity of human ghosts. I occasionally watch episodes on TV where cases are "documented". But none of them were convincing enough that it gave me hope that ghosts [and thus an afterlife] were the real deal.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382
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Re: Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

Postby iambiguous » Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:53 pm

That in regard to...

1] Pagans all on their own individual path with nature coming up with their own individual convictions as a "moral person"...and then interacting with others in a Pagan community in which somehow these conflicting convictions must co-exist
2] the part where you intertwine your moral convictions derived from the evolution of nature at your birth and the part I embed in dasein
3] how you reconcile acknowledging that had your life been very different you might well be be here ridiculing Pagans and embracing moral nihilism with being a "moral person"
4] how you insist that you could never come down into the hole with me even while acknowledging that new experiences, relationships, information, knowledge and ideas might result in your changing your mind about what you believe now


Maia wrote:I'm sorry but there are no actual questions there, just a repetition of what you always say. If you want to ask me something, something specific that you haven't asked before, then do so.


I did ask you specific questions. And your answers [from my frame of mind] did not seem to go much below the surface. Usually one or two sentences. Like now. And it's because I have such great respect for your intelligence that I know you are capable of going deeper. But I suspect you don't/won't [again, based on my own subjective prejudices here] because you have so much invested psychologically in Paganism and the Goddess. They are the anchor for your Self. They are your own rendition of the One True Path.

Unless of course I'm wrong. And I flat out acknowledge that I may well be. But I need more probing arguments from you yourself to fathom the parameters of that.

Exactly my point. Your question about me proving the color green exist. My response to that...noting a number of points. Then you ignoring those points and telling me to go out and experience...what? That technology? The points noted in the article linked? The gap between the color green and ghosts?


Ghosts.


So, is this meant to be ironic?

Again, from your end an adequate answer. But no where near what I had hoped it might prompt in you from my end in regard to how people connect the dots between "I" and their own moral convictions. Exploring more in depth the idea of an "antidote" as [perhaps] a manifestation of what I call the "psychology of objectivism". And my attempt to explore how "for all practical purposes" Paganism might be construed by some as an objectivist font/One True Path for becoming a "moral person".


Maia wrote:If you have an actual question, that you haven't asked before, I'll try and answer it. All you seem to do is just say the same things, over and over again, without actually asking anything.


Always back to that...about my lack of new questions rather than the lack of depth in your old answers.

We will just have to agree to disagree about this then. Perhaps when I probe Pagan morality on my morality thread, I will become better informed about it. But, given your answers, I only become all that more confused.

Though, sure, that may be because of my own inadequacies here. I never leave that part out. But all I can do is to react as genuinely to the things people post here as I do. And maybe close the gaps between us with new answers.


Maia wrote:I seriously doubt that you'll become better informed about Pagan morality, or indeed anything, because you only ever ask the same questions, and never take notice of the answers, anyway.


Okay, I'll note their answers and compare them to yours. Perhaps we can both learn something.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382
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Re: Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

Postby Maia » Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:08 pm

iambiguous wrote:
That in regard to...

1] Pagans all on their own individual path with nature coming up with their own individual convictions as a "moral person"...and then interacting with others in a Pagan community in which somehow these conflicting convictions must co-exist
2] the part where you intertwine your moral convictions derived from the evolution of nature at your birth and the part I embed in dasein
3] how you reconcile acknowledging that had your life been very different you might well be be here ridiculing Pagans and embracing moral nihilism with being a "moral person"
4] how you insist that you could never come down into the hole with me even while acknowledging that new experiences, relationships, information, knowledge and ideas might result in your changing your mind about what you believe now


Maia wrote:I'm sorry but there are no actual questions there, just a repetition of what you always say. If you want to ask me something, something specific that you haven't asked before, then do so.


I did ask you specific questions. And your answers [from my frame of mind] did not seem to go much below the surface. Usually one or two sentences. Like now. And it's because I have such great respect for your intelligence that I know you are capable of going deeper. But I suspect you don't/won't [again, based on my own subjective prejudices here] because you have so much invested psychologically in Paganism and the Goddess. They are the anchor for your Self. They are your own rendition of the One True Path.

Unless of course I'm wrong. And I flat out acknowledge that I may well be. But I need more probing arguments from you yourself to fathom the parameters of that.

Exactly my point. Your question about me proving the color green exist. My response to that...noting a number of points. Then you ignoring those points and telling me to go out and experience...what? That technology? The points noted in the article linked? The gap between the color green and ghosts?


Ghosts.


So, is this meant to be ironic?

Again, from your end an adequate answer. But no where near what I had hoped it might prompt in you from my end in regard to how people connect the dots between "I" and their own moral convictions. Exploring more in depth the idea of an "antidote" as [perhaps] a manifestation of what I call the "psychology of objectivism". And my attempt to explore how "for all practical purposes" Paganism might be construed by some as an objectivist font/One True Path for becoming a "moral person".


Maia wrote:If you have an actual question, that you haven't asked before, I'll try and answer it. All you seem to do is just say the same things, over and over again, without actually asking anything.


Always back to that...about my lack of new questions rather than the lack of depth in your old answers.

We will just have to agree to disagree about this then. Perhaps when I probe Pagan morality on my morality thread, I will become better informed about it. But, given your answers, I only become all that more confused.

Though, sure, that may be because of my own inadequacies here. I never leave that part out. But all I can do is to react as genuinely to the things people post here as I do. And maybe close the gaps between us with new answers.


Maia wrote:I seriously doubt that you'll become better informed about Pagan morality, or indeed anything, because you only ever ask the same questions, and never take notice of the answers, anyway.


Okay, I'll note their answers and compare them to yours. Perhaps we can both learn something.


+++So, is this meant to be ironic?+++

No. And since that's the only question you asked, it's the only answer you're going to get.
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Re: Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

Postby iambiguous » Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:38 pm

iambiguous wrote: That in regard to...

1] Pagans all on their own individual path with nature coming up with their own individual convictions as a "moral person"...and then interacting with others in a Pagan community in which somehow these conflicting convictions must co-exist
2] the part where you intertwine your moral convictions derived from the evolution of nature at your birth and the part I embed in dasein
3] how you reconcile acknowledging that had your life been very different you might well be be here ridiculing Pagans and embracing moral nihilism with being a "moral person"
4] how you insist that you could never come down into the hole with me even while acknowledging that new experiences, relationships, information, knowledge and ideas might result in your changing your mind about what you believe now


Maia wrote:I'm sorry but there are no actual questions there, just a repetition of what you always say. If you want to ask me something, something specific that you haven't asked before, then do so.


iambiguous wrote:I did ask you specific questions. And your answers [from my frame of mind] did not seem to go much below the surface. Usually one or two sentences. Like now. And it's because I have such great respect for your intelligence that I know you are capable of going deeper. But I suspect you don't/won't [again, based on my own subjective prejudices here] because you have so much invested psychologically in Paganism and the Goddess. They are the anchor for your Self. They are your own rendition of the One True Path.

Unless of course I'm wrong. And I flat out acknowledge that I may well be. But I need more probing arguments from you yourself to fathom the parameters of that.

Exactly my point. Your question about me proving the color green exist. My response to that...noting a number of points. Then you ignoring those points and telling me to go out and experience...what? That technology? The points noted in the article linked? The gap between the color green and ghosts?


Ghosts.


So, is this meant to be ironic?

Again, from your end an adequate answer. But no where near what I had hoped it might prompt in you from my end in regard to how people connect the dots between "I" and their own moral convictions. Exploring more in depth the idea of an "antidote" as [perhaps] a manifestation of what I call the "psychology of objectivism". And my attempt to explore how "for all practical purposes" Paganism might be construed by some as an objectivist font/One True Path for becoming a "moral person".


Maia wrote:If you have an actual question, that you haven't asked before, I'll try and answer it. All you seem to do is just say the same things, over and over again, without actually asking anything.


Always back to that...about my lack of new questions rather than the lack of depth in your old answers.

We will just have to agree to disagree about this then. Perhaps when I probe Pagan morality on my morality thread, I will become better informed about it. But, given your answers, I only become all that more confused.

Though, sure, that may be because of my own inadequacies here. I never leave that part out. But all I can do is to react as genuinely to the things people post here as I do. And maybe close the gaps between us with new answers.


Maia wrote:I seriously doubt that you'll become better informed about Pagan morality, or indeed anything, because you only ever ask the same questions, and never take notice of the answers, anyway.


Okay, I'll note their answers and compare them to yours. Perhaps we can both learn something.


iambiguous wrote:So, is this meant to be ironic?


Maia wrote: No. And since that's the only question you asked, it's the only answer you're going to get.


Another collapse...

And I'm truly saddened to see it come to that again.

So: My doing more or less than yours?

I once asked you in our email exchange why you would continue to sustain contact with urwrong/Adam despite the frightening stalking episodes from the past. And now given your exchange with him on the God is a tree thread I think I understand it clearer. This is precisely the sort of exchange that allows you to dig deeper...to go deeper in your responses. It's largely about ancient spiritual beliefs that generally steers clear of the relationships I focus in on: connecting the dots existentially between the behaviors you choose now and the fate of "I" then.

Probing how as individuals we come to think of ourselves as a "moral person".

With Adam it revolves around what "I" construe to be a "fulminating fanatic objectivist" frame of mind. Again, "UR wrong times a 1000" if you don't think like him.

You're not an objectivist in that sense to me but only because being a "moral person" does not revolve for you around some religious or philosophical or ideological dogma. But "for all practical purposes" it does sustain the equivalent of objectivism...the "One True Path" that, psychologically, allows you intertwine the existential "I" into something that is "bigger than us" as individuals. A spiritual font however "individualized" it can be made to seem.

Unless of course I'm wrong.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382
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Re: Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

Postby Maia » Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:54 pm

+++Another collapse...

And I'm truly saddened to see it come to that again.

So: My doing more or less than yours?

I once asked you in our email exchange why you would continue to sustain contact with urwrong/Adam despite the frightening stalking episodes from the past. And now given your exchange with him on the God is a tree thread I think I understand it clearer. This is precisely the sort of exchange that allows you to dig deeper...to go deeper in your responses. It's largely about ancient spiritual beliefs that generally steers clear of the relationships I focus in on: connecting the dots existentially between the behaviors you choose now and the fate of "I" then.

Probing how as individuals we come to think of ourselves as a "moral person".

With Adam it revolves around what "I" construe to be a "fulminating fanatic objectivist" frame of mind. Again, "UR wrong times a 1000" if you don't think like him.

You're not an objectivist in that sense to me but only because being a "moral person" does not revolve for you around some religious or philosophical or ideological dogma. But "for all practical purposes" it does sustain the equivalent of objectivism...the "One True Path" that, psychologically, allows you intertwine the existential "I" into something that is "bigger than us" as individuals. A spiritual font however "individualized" it can be made to seem.

Unless of course I'm wrong.+++

If someone talks to me with respect, and asks me something, I'll respond.

Ignoring my answers, and asking the same things over and over again, is not a sign of respect.
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Re: Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

Postby iambiguous » Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:03 pm

Maia wrote:
Another collapse...

And I'm truly saddened to see it come to that again.

So: My doing more or less than yours?

I once asked you in our email exchange why you would continue to sustain contact with urwrong/Adam despite the frightening stalking episodes from the past. And now given your exchange with him on the God is a tree thread I think I understand it clearer. This is precisely the sort of exchange that allows you to dig deeper...to go deeper in your responses. It's largely about ancient spiritual beliefs that generally steers clear of the relationships I focus in on: connecting the dots existentially between the behaviors you choose now and the fate of "I" then.

Probing how as individuals we come to think of ourselves as a "moral person".

With Adam it revolves around what "I" construe to be a "fulminating fanatic objectivist" frame of mind. Again, "UR wrong times a 1000" if you don't think like him.

You're not an objectivist in that sense to me but only because being a "moral person" does not revolve for you around some religious or philosophical or ideological dogma. But "for all practical purposes" it does sustain the equivalent of objectivism...the "One True Path" that, psychologically, allows you intertwine the existential "I" into something that is "bigger than us" as individuals. A spiritual font however "individualized" it can be made to seem.

Unless of course I'm wrong.


Maia wrote:If someone talks to me with respect, and asks me something, I'll respond.

Ignoring my answers, and asking the same things over and over again, is not a sign of respect.


Again, you have your rendition of all this and I have mine.

And if a stalker now talks to you with respect, well, that's between you and him. I can't be inside you. I can't grasp how you think and feel about these things.

Just be careful about what you tell him about yourself. Nothing too personal. And I can assure you he will never get that information out of me.

Maybe later, maybe not.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382
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Re: Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

Postby Maia » Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:07 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Maia wrote:
Another collapse...

And I'm truly saddened to see it come to that again.

So: My doing more or less than yours?

I once asked you in our email exchange why you would continue to sustain contact with urwrong/Adam despite the frightening stalking episodes from the past. And now given your exchange with him on the God is a tree thread I think I understand it clearer. This is precisely the sort of exchange that allows you to dig deeper...to go deeper in your responses. It's largely about ancient spiritual beliefs that generally steers clear of the relationships I focus in on: connecting the dots existentially between the behaviors you choose now and the fate of "I" then.

Probing how as individuals we come to think of ourselves as a "moral person".

With Adam it revolves around what "I" construe to be a "fulminating fanatic objectivist" frame of mind. Again, "UR wrong times a 1000" if you don't think like him.

You're not an objectivist in that sense to me but only because being a "moral person" does not revolve for you around some religious or philosophical or ideological dogma. But "for all practical purposes" it does sustain the equivalent of objectivism...the "One True Path" that, psychologically, allows you intertwine the existential "I" into something that is "bigger than us" as individuals. A spiritual font however "individualized" it can be made to seem.

Unless of course I'm wrong.


Maia wrote:If someone talks to me with respect, and asks me something, I'll respond.

Ignoring my answers, and asking the same things over and over again, is not a sign of respect.


Again, you have your rendition of all this and I have mine.

And if a stalker now talks to you with respect, well, that's between you and him. I can't be inside you. I can't grasp how you think and feel about these things.

Just be careful about what you tell him about yourself. Nothing too personal. And I can assure you he will never get that information out of me.

Maybe later, maybe not.


If you have something to say to me that's new and fresh, you are, of course, welcome to.
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Re: Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

Postby iambiguous » Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:23 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Maia wrote:
Another collapse...

And I'm truly saddened to see it come to that again.

So: My doing more or less than yours?

I once asked you in our email exchange why you would continue to sustain contact with urwrong/Adam despite the frightening stalking episodes from the past. And now given your exchange with him on the God is a tree thread I think I understand it clearer. This is precisely the sort of exchange that allows you to dig deeper...to go deeper in your responses. It's largely about ancient spiritual beliefs that generally steers clear of the relationships I focus in on: connecting the dots existentially between the behaviors you choose now and the fate of "I" then.

Probing how as individuals we come to think of ourselves as a "moral person".

With Adam it revolves around what "I" construe to be a "fulminating fanatic objectivist" frame of mind. Again, "UR wrong times a 1000" if you don't think like him.

You're not an objectivist in that sense to me but only because being a "moral person" does not revolve for you around some religious or philosophical or ideological dogma. But "for all practical purposes" it does sustain the equivalent of objectivism...the "One True Path" that, psychologically, allows you intertwine the existential "I" into something that is "bigger than us" as individuals. A spiritual font however "individualized" it can be made to seem.

Unless of course I'm wrong.


Maia wrote:If someone talks to me with respect, and asks me something, I'll respond.

Ignoring my answers, and asking the same things over and over again, is not a sign of respect.


Again, you have your rendition of all this and I have mine.

And if a stalker now talks to you with respect, well, that's between you and him. I can't be inside you. I can't grasp how you think and feel about these things.

Just be careful about what you tell him about yourself. Nothing too personal. And I can assure you he will never get that information out of me.

Maybe later, maybe not.


Maia wrote:If you have something to say to me that's new and fresh, you are, of course, welcome to.


Fair enough. But even then the exchange may well be more to your liking or to mine. Groping and grappling with "I" existentially is always my own main priority. Not what you believe as a "moral person" but why you came to believe it. And not something else. And, given all of the conflicting beliefs about the same thing from so many different people, how is that accounted for? More as a result of the arguments I make in regard to dasein, or more as a result of individuals being on their own separate path with nature.

What we would need to do is to meet somewhere in the middle here...if that's possible. Me asking "fresher" questions. You providing "deeper" answers.

In the interim, all the best to you. And I still think of you as a truly extraordinary person. If truly enigmatic in turn. Much as I think of myself.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382
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Re: Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

Postby MagsJ » Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:48 am

iambiguous wrote:
MagsJ wrote: I haven’t thought that far ahead, but having gone to Confession when of age to.. with near-no sin to disclose.. I had already made my peace way back then, and so believe that that side of things will take care of itself/that I do not have to think or worry about it.

iambiguous wrote:Then your own religious faith is very, very different from the overwhelming preponderance of those believe in God. For them nothing can possibly be more important than connecting the dots between the behaviors they choose on this side of the grave, Judgement Day, and the fate of "I" on the other side.

Basically, the whole point of religion. At least historically.

Though, sure, if your own frame of mind works for you and you are at peace with whatever that fate might be then that need be as far as it goes.

There is clearly nothing much to discuss then. I simply assume that your frame of mind here is rooted existentially in dasein...and might have been very different had any number of things in your life been different. You don't feel the need to go there though. Or so it seems to me.

MagsJ wrote: That was me 'going there' :-s

Okay, fair enough. We think about it differently then. I'm more inclined to probe the beliefs of those who do approach it in terms of "morality here and now/immortality [and salvation] there and then". And the extent that is rooted subjectively in dasein.

Perhaps those that have sinned, or have done something that has caused them to seek redemption, through salvation by their Faith.

iambiguous wrote:
MagsJ wrote: Although I don’t think about an afterlife, I have experienced paranormal phenomena, which would suggest to the experiencer that there is something beyond death.. it seemed to have something to do with energy and vapour, vapour.. being of the traditional ghostly-looking foggy kind.

iambiguous wrote:As with others, I can only ask you to note any experiences you have had, have now or might have that will, perhaps, allow me to think, "yes, given that, an afterlife may be possible". It would just have to be grounded more substantively...something that goes beyond energy and vapor. Something that others can experience as well. Something that others are able to demonstrate as in fact grounded in actual empirical evidence.

But that's just me.

MagsJ wrote: When we depart, we go back to whence we came, to the elements.. the scientific method?

On the other hand, what does science itself know about death and dying...other than what, through the scientific method, it can conclude about it. We die, our body decomposes...dust to dust. And then some speculate it's back to "star stuff". But the soul? Nope, nothing from science yet in regard to pinning that down.

The soul is our individual spark within, that makes us animated.. every single cell in our body creates energy, so being a dynamo unto itself. That is what animates us, cell by cell.. the entirety of this energy, forming a soul. I don’t think there’s anything mystical about it, but I do think it’s remarkable none-the-less.

This energy gets stored in the muscles for action/reaction / fight or flight.. without it we are useless and as-good-as dead, in having become increasingly soul less.. which is now a modern woe, from cell/energy-disrupting bio-agents. Synonyms being.. a shadow of their former self, lost their spark, running on empty, a lost soul, etc..

Soul.. the collective name for our energy centres, that distribute this soul-energy around the body.

iambiguous wrote:
MagsJ wrote: If you have not experienced the presence of those, after they have departed, then you cannot verify that an afterlife exists.. so to you, it does not.

iambiguous wrote:That's about it. We can place a wager on one of all the different Gods out there. And, for many, they can think themselves into believing in an afterlife that includes immortality and salvation. But nobody seems able to actually demonstrate that what they believe is in fact actually the case. For me then it revolves more around God and religion being a psychological defense mechanism. We don't want to die [at least for those of us who actually don't] and we need to believe something that convinces us we won't die. It's the belief itself that counts first and foremost.

MagsJ wrote: Are you concerned about those who have lost their lives in a war and that they may have an ever-after? Is there not enough solace in vapour and energy? ..it gave me solace, once.

Again, the "vapor and energy" part is something that is beyond my grasping in regard to my own experiences with those who have died.

And, no, I have never come across anyone I was close to who experienced any phenomena in the vicinity of human ghosts. I occasionally watch episodes on TV where cases are "documented". But none of them were convincing enough that it gave me hope that ghosts [and thus an afterlife] were the real deal.

Would whatever happens to us after life be an after life, in the way of still thinking and feeling, or would it be all observation and vibrations? I’m going to go with the latter.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

Postby Berkley Babes » Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:09 am

I have witnessed three spaceships. They were huge, and yet stationary in the the sky, without making a sound to indicate how they could hover. Also they had windows, with the purest light inside.

I'm not lying on the the internet, as that would do nothing for me.
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Re: Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

Postby promethean75 » Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:42 am

Absolutely, and they've already infiltrated the news networks. Paula Reid being one of them. Observe:
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Re: Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

Postby iambiguous » Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:35 pm

MagsJ wrote: I haven’t thought that far ahead, but having gone to Confession when of age to.. with near-no sin to disclose.. I had already made my peace way back then, and so believe that that side of things will take care of itself/that I do not have to think or worry about it.


iambiguous wrote:Then your own religious faith is very, very different from the overwhelming preponderance of those believe in God. For them nothing can possibly be more important than connecting the dots between the behaviors they choose on this side of the grave, Judgement Day, and the fate of "I" on the other side.

Basically, the whole point of religion. At least historically.

Though, sure, if your own frame of mind works for you and you are at peace with whatever that fate might be then that need be as far as it goes.

There is clearly nothing much to discuss then. I simply assume that your frame of mind here is rooted existentially in dasein...and might have been very different had any number of things in your life been different. You don't feel the need to go there though. Or so it seems to me.

MagsJ wrote: That was me 'going there' :-s


iambiguous wrote: Okay, fair enough. We think about it differently then. I'm more inclined to probe the beliefs of those who do approach it in terms of "morality here and now/immortality [and salvation] there and then". And the extent that is rooted subjectively in dasein.


MagsJ wrote: Perhaps those that have sinned, or have done something that has caused them to seek redemption, through salvation by their Faith.


Again, to me, individual reactions to sin and redemption, then connecting the dots between morality, Judgment Day and salvation are rooted in dasein. In our indoctrination as children and in the experiences we had as adults. It's not what we believe but why, given the life we lived, it was highly unlikely that we would come to believe something else. Then the part where we believe what comforts and consoles us, making it rather remote that we will dwell on proving [even to ourselves] that our beliefs are actually demonstrable.

iambiguous wrote:On the other hand, what does science itself know about death and dying...other than what, through the scientific method, it can conclude about it. We die, our body decomposes...dust to dust. And then some speculate it's back to "star stuff". But the soul? Nope, nothing from science yet in regard to pinning that down.


MagsJ wrote: The soul is our individual spark within, that makes us animated.. every single cell in our body creates energy, so being a dynamo unto itself. That is what animates us, cell by cell.. the entirety of this energy, forming a soul. I don’t think there’s anything mystical about it, but I do think it’s remarkable none-the-less.

This energy gets stored in the muscles for action/reaction / fight or flight.. without it we are useless and as-good-as dead, in having become increasingly soul less.. which is now a modern woe, from cell/energy-disrupting bio-agents. Synonyms being.. a shadow of their former self, lost their spark, running on empty, a lost soul, etc..

Soul.. the collective name for our energy centres, that distribute this soul-energy around the body.


Still, from my frame of mind, this is merely what you believe. And, from my frame of mind, you believe it because it comforts and consoles you. That way the part where you demonstrate what you believe about the soul here to others -- to me -- doesn't factor into the exchange at all.

Unless, of course, you can demonstrate it. Still, there is nothing "mystical" about it to you. Well, sans evidence from science establishing that the soul does exist and functions as you say it does, it does sound mystical to me.

In any event, I have no experiences myself with a soul as you describe it. Thus all I can do in places like this is to seek out actual empirical, material, phenomenological evidence that what those like you experience is the real deal.

After all, what else is there?

iambiguous wrote:Again, the "vapor and energy" part is something that is beyond my grasping in regard to my own experiences with those who have died.

And, no, I have never come across anyone I was close to who experienced any phenomena in the vicinity of human ghosts. I occasionally watch episodes on TV where cases are "documented". But none of them were convincing enough that it gave me hope that ghosts [and thus an afterlife] were the real deal.


MagsJ wrote: Would whatever happens to us after life be an after life, in the way of still thinking and feeling, or would it be all observation and vibrations? I’m going to go with the latter.


Well, the life that most of us are reasonably sure of is the one that starts with conception and ends with death. So, when we speak of an afterlife it revolves around what becomes of "I" after that.

And thinking and feeling in Heaven [or its equivalent in other religions] is what most imagine the fate of "I" to be. They're just not clear regarding how that works with a bodiless "soul". In fact, I suspect that many imagine that, somehow, "up there", they acquire a new body. Just not one that led to all the sins "down here".

As for the observation and vibration [posthumously], I suspect that most of them would be even less discerning.

How do you imagine it?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=176529
Then here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=185296
And here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382
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Re: Anyone here seen a ghost, UFO, or other strange entity?

Postby Lorikeet » Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:01 pm

We'll need a context...of course.
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